I’m annoyed by what I view as an unnecessary purchase

[Jaybee]

15 minutes ago, Quill said:

It could not be more accurate. 

There is a gratefulness thing, no question. I want some fawning, too. 

There is a fear thing. When I was growing up, I saw my parents make a lot of puzzling choices. I did not have the feeling of safety that kids need to not grow up to be neurotic about purses. They still do things that don’t make sense. My sister, too, when she was alive, made horrible financial decisions. She constantly bought frivolous doo-dads. She wasted tens of thousands of dollars. It ruined her marriage. So yes, I am hyper-vigillant about the slightest whiff of money mismanagement. Because we just cannot be like this, you know? Seven P’s and all that. 

DS18 is a total squirrel. It’s mind-boggling how logical he is about expenses. He works his butt off. And then he saves fanatically. And with him, I have to convince him I don’t mind buying him some protein bars to keep at college in his room. 

I was just thinking along the lines of what Chris said too. Because of your past, you want to prevent your kids from having to suffer as you did. But because they don't, it scares you that they may not appreciate what they have, and may be wasteful. I think there is usually some bouncing around between those lines for a person to come to a healthy balance. So perhaps you need to learn not to panic when they make a decision you wouldn't; or even to be able to give to them (her) without fearing she won't learn responsibility. And they need to learn (and it is often through making a few mistakes) that money doesn't grow on trees. I grew up with privilege. We were not rich, but we were very comfortable financially. Because my mother had grown up poor, she was determined that we would have things that she couldn't have, like candy and music lessons, lol. There were no designer clothes or expensive cars, but we had all the books we wanted, plus hand-me-down vehicles and college. None of us grew up to be irresponsible financially. We've all made mistakes from time to time. Even if you wrote off the debts and started clean, I think your daughter would be fine, because she has lived with the conversations and the practices, and you will not be enabling an adult lifestyle of her dependence on you. 

We can have unhealthy relationships with money on both sides. I have a friend who is terribly frugal; he is fine financially, etc. But he is so careful about spending money that it comes across as stingy/cheap. It's as if he is unwilling to pay even when it is for good quality that he can easily afford. I don't quite think that is healthy either. 

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, Quill said:

But @LucyStoner, I did not say she is stupid or foolish, I said I think that decision is stupid or foolish. I think buying a bunch of purses - that behavior - is foolish. My sister did that. It was foolish. My sister was NOT a stupid person. But her spending choices were excessively foolish. 

But is it really? Or just not what you would do? We currently need to do work on our house. There is flooring that needs to be replaced and a bathroom that needs to be finished. But I spent some money recently on Prime day on something frivolous. Bluetooth speakers so I can listen to music when I'm in the backyard with the kids. I suppose that was foolish, but I'd rather have messed up floors and music than new floors sooner and no music every afternoon. It's just a choice, it's not a morality thing. (I agree owing money does bring it into a morality issue, but you seem to be saying it would be foolish no matter what)

[LucyStoner]

1 minute ago, Quill said:

But @LucyStoner, I did not say she is stupid or foolish, I said I think that decision is stupid or foolish. I think buying a bunch of purses - that behavior - is foolish. My sister did that. It was foolish. My sister was NOT a stupid person. But her spending choices were excessively foolish. 

Our attitudes are conveyed in a range of ways, verbal and non-verbal.  It's safe to say that your daughter heard more than what you said when you texted her about the dental work.   I've BTDT with judging people who, at the end of the day, aren't better or worse than me, they are just different.  

It sounds like you made a good repair attempt about casting up the dental costs to her.  That's great.  

All I am saying is that coming from a somewhat similar place, I can't overstate the benefits to me and my relationships of letting go of those value judgments about different money choices.  With the current stress you are under about money, it can't hurt to let all of your kids know and to start shifting some expectations around money in your home.  Even if that means everyone challenges some of their own thinking. 

[SKL]

Another thought - you don't want her to be too restricted in what she can do with her money.  It might motivate her to quit her job, and then things would be worse than before.

[prairiewindmomma]

59 minutes ago, Quill said:

I would probably think it was stupid to buy two $30 Target purses just so she could have two colors. I imagine it would irritate me a bit less because the fact of a designer purse is much less necessary than simply *A* purse, any purse, to be one’s daily purse. But in reality, I would still think buying two purses at once was foolish, except perhaps if they were literally yardsale or thrift store buys for a few dollars each. But I don’t carry purses and, back when I did, I had one at a time (though I had something like a silver clutch for a wedding too). But only ONE purse to be my main purse for a few years until I was tired of it and/or it was worn out. After my car window was smashed in and my purse was stolen at a soccer game in broad daylight, I ceased ever carrying a purse of the usual type. (Except at a wedding or event.) So yeah - purses are meaningless to me. 

Also, I forget who asked but she definitely does value having a car to drive. She would NOT be one of those people who would say she would rather drink lattes and ride a bike or bum a ride. She would have no way of seeing her bf, not least of all, except for him to come to campus, which is not a great regularly-occurring option.She was super inconvenienced just by having a dead car for a few days. 

 

I've stayed out of the discussion until now, but if I were to chime in, it's that a car is a want....not a need.  She is living on campus.  Even if she were commuting from home, she could still step out for a semester and earn more income to purchase a beater commuter car and then step back in to finish her degree.

If you're at the point of missing sleep and of daily agonizing over whether to work outside of your family home-based business, I think everything needs to be put back on the table and re-evaluated.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

But is it really? Or just not what you would do? We currently need to do work on our house. There is flooring that needs to be replaced and a bathroom that needs to be finished. But I spent some money recently on Prime day on something frivolous. Bluetooth speakers so I can listen to music when I'm in the backyard with the kids. I suppose that was foolish, but I'd rather have messed up floors and music than new floors sooner and no music every afternoon. It's just a choice, it's not a morality thing. (I agree owing money does bring it into a morality issue, but you seem to be saying it would be foolish no matter what)

Obviously it is not what I would do. I didn’t say it was Holy Scripture. I said “I think”. 

We all behave from our beliefs, opinions, experiences. You do. I do. Everyone in this thread, or who has wisely quit it, does. 

Look at my title. “I view” as unnecessary. I didn’t say it is unnecessary for all people in the world. But I view it as unnecessary. For me. For her. For my sister, were she still alive. For my mom, except she compulsively shopped thrifted goods. So she probably lost thousands of dollars over years, one buck at a time. Anyway...

I said it was my view. My opinion. My experience. 

And if I were a betting woman, I would put $60 on she does not use this purse for more than two years. She will get tired of it or it won’t have the configuration she needs at a later time. My experience tells me this is typical of her age group. I could be wrong. But I doubt it. 

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, Quill said:

Obviously it is not what I would do. I didn’t say it was Holy Scripture. I said “I think”. 

We all behave from our beliefs, opinions, experiences. You do. I do. Everyone in this thread, or who has wisely quit it, does. 

Look at my title. “I view” as unnecessary. I didn’t say it is unnecessary for all people in the world. But I view it as unnecessary. For me. For her. For my sister, were she still alive. For my mom, except she compulsively shopped thrifted goods. So she probably lost thousands of dollars over years, one buck at a time. Anyway...

I said it was my view. My opinion. My experience. 

And if I were a betting woman, I would put $60 on she does not use this purse for more than two years. She will get tired of it or it won’t have the configuration she needs at a later time. My experience tells me this is typical of her age group. I could be wrong. But I doubt it. 

But again, you are not saying, 'I don't like to spend money on purses". That would be expressing your views on it. You are saying other people are FOOLISH to do so, which is a whole heck of a lot of value judgment to throw at someone spending, even at your estimate of two years of use, $2.50 a month on purse expenditure. It's just not what you would spend it on, but that doesn't make it foolish. It just means you don't like purses and she does. I like to read. I spend a decent amount of money on books a year (not a ton, I mostly use the library, but a not zero sum). My sister doesn't like to read. That doesn't mean she thinks me spending money on books is foolish. She just chooses not to spend money on them because she knows she won't get enjoyment out of it, but since I do it isn't a foolish purchase for me. 

Now, unnecessary, as you started off with, is not a value judgement and I agree, it was not a necessary expense. But foolish? Stupid? Those are pretty loaded words for $2.50 a month on something that brings her pleasure and will be used on a regular basis for practical purposes. 

[hippiemamato3]

10 minutes ago, Quill said:

Obviously it is not what I would do. I didn’t say it was Holy Scripture. I said “I think”. 

We all behave from our beliefs, opinions, experiences. You do. I do. Everyone in this thread, or who has wisely quit it, does. 

Look at my title. “I view” as unnecessary. I didn’t say it is unnecessary for all people in the world. But I view it as unnecessary. For me. For her. For my sister, were she still alive. For my mom, except she compulsively shopped thrifted goods. So she probably lost thousands of dollars over years, one buck at a time. Anyway...

I said it was my view. My opinion. My experience. 

And if I were a betting woman, I would put $60 on she does not use this purse for more than two years. She will get tired of it or it won’t have the configuration she needs at a later time. My experience tells me this is typical of her age group. I could be wrong. But I doubt it. 

She might not. Who cares? Life is too short to perseverate on such small things for so many hours.

I remember buying myself nice several packs of Adidas socks at a shoe store. I was about 18 or 19, living at home - commuting to college. My mom made an off-hand comment about how I "never deny myself anything." Later, I developed anorexia and sometimes those worse would haunt me. For several years I denied myself EVERYTHING, including food. She didn't cause the issue, no...but her belief that I didn't deserve anything luxurious did come back to haunt me during that time. 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

 

I've stayed out of the discussion until now, but if I were to chime in, it's that a car is a want....not a need.  She is living on campus.  Even if she were commuting from home, she could still step out for a semester and earn more income to purchase a beater commuter car and then step back in to finish her degree.

If you're at the point of missing sleep and of daily agonizing over whether to work outside of your family home-based business, I think everything needs to be put back on the table and re-evaluated.

I would not do this re: the car unless the money simply did not exist in any form. It’s like @Frances said; in some ways it is harder when you are able to help than when you simply just cannot no matter how much you might wish to. Because then you have to decide where the line goes. 

Everything is not getting put on the table and reevaluated. I have reasons I cannot discuss but I cannot do that. I think there are some poker metaphors that apply hear about showing a hand and aces in the hole but I don’t play poker and so I can’t apply them seamlessly. 

[Tsuga]

22 hours ago, Quill said:

It’s that I am torn - on one hand - HORRAY! She got to study in France! She has a car she can use and that she did not have to buy herself! She does not have to put off things like dental care, which I did. I enrolled in a study program at NIH for dental care when I was 20-something. I am glad. 

I just don’t feel like I’m doing these things so she can buy a fancy purse. 

I get it. It's not a feeling I want to have but yes, I find it hard to believe what I give and what it leads them to expect.

[Guest]

Okay, little thread. You have grown for 7 pages now and it is time to release you into the wild. There’s such a thing as more explanation making matters worse. 

[mommyoffive]

6 hours ago, MysteryJen said:

I have read the whole thread, and I am sorry, Quill, for the money troubles. I understand the anxiety about money and I know it just eats away at a person. Clearly your tipping point was the purse. My dh’s tipping point is lunch at Panera. The reactions are not completely irrational, but they are an overreaction. 

You have to explain your tipping point to your dd. And not do it with judgement that her purchase (on sale and considered) reflects badly on her character. Because I don’t think that is fair.

Set up and agreed payment plan for the France trip. Or if she wishes she can pay you back right now. 

The taxes are tricky, because she is still entwined with you financially. This is a team playing moment for both of you.

The root canal is bad luck- I would just pay slowly over time- she can give you some money for payments- an agreed percentage.

Does she have to have a car at school? Think hard about that. All my kids did not and will not have a car on campus. Sometimes annoying, but always cheaper.

and the last thing. People are different about what they value. It is not wrong to love beautiful things. It is not wrong to spend money on them. Granted, you should pay bills first, but you said she had been paying you back for the trip. 

I love beautiful things. I have art on my walls instead of nice furniture. I bought a dog instead of a plane ticket home for Christmas when I was 23. I know my mother didn’t approve. She let me know in a similar passive aggressive voicemail. We are different and that is okay. It has taken over 20 years for my mother to stop judging my choices. So I don’t share, I don’t borrow, and the relationship is fragile. This young adult stage is so hard, but judgment on choices (obviously not talking about dangerous ones) does more damage than anything you can do.

 

I think this must be true.  We think that the newborn years are so hard, but then there is so much more to worry about later. 

I am sorry about all the stress that is going on.  And I would reach a tipping point too where I just let it all out, not in the best way.   I really would have the same feelings about this all that you do.  

I appreciate all the parents of older kids saying how they are handling things.  Gives me things to think about how I would handle things in the future. 

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

Yeah, but I seriously cannot see how any child living here would think this. We had to evict a tenant this past spring; I talked about it on here as I do everything. Well, while that was going down, my kids absolutely heard and saw all aspects of this, in both the sense of warning as how it is bad to be as a tenant and also how much loss this cost us. So several thousand dollars in income, lost. And then a couple more thousand cleaning it out. And no new renter there now. 

And then, on Memorial weekend, the six properties we manage suffered a devastating flood, two years, not even, since the last devastating flood. So -no income from those properties until everyone can move back and we get new tenants for the vacancies. 

Anyway - didn’t mean to go on that tangent necessarily, but the point was meant that our kids SEE that these things are lost income. Money not made. Good money after bad. They couldn’t miss it. I am sure an individual kid does not necessarily internalize it as well as another might like, “wow...that’s probably going to make them reluctant to spend money for a while...” But presumably, they would still recognize that none of these events are good. 

 

Part of me thinks this thread has gone on long enough and I should help release it by not posting any more  

But I find myself drawn to it in part because I have a slightly younger child, but sometimes perhaps similar issues, and I feel that I am learning some important things as I read this thread   And perhaps I hope sometimes something to add that someone else would learn something from  

So I guess I will continue to tune back in and respond also from time to time  

 

I know it seems like any reasonable non-comatose person would see ______ and thus understand _______.  

But at the very least, I think when you next talk with your dd about all this, you should find out if she actually does understand what you think she should understand. Or not. 

And you  seeking to understand her views might help too 

 

to to share from my own life

My ds, bought a pair of jazzy Air Jordan high tops and designer jeans and hoody ...  And in violation of a standing rule to run purchase ideas by me before making them  

Like you, I am really not into designer stuff. I also am worrying about money.  In my case concerns are for different reasons since I have a serious disability such that work is a problem plus it creates its own extra expenses—and unless I can think of something amazing to bring in some money in my situation I am heading toward an under poverty  line income level .  And each time I turn around something in my little old house is going wrong  ...  but the general concept of worry about future is there for me too... as is childhood experience of poverty  

So probably my feelings about ds’s expenditures for his clothes were not terribly different than your feelings about the purse  your dd bought   

That said, and even though I don’t think the jeans are especially becoming to him, I do see that his choice sparks joy for him  

He stands up straighter when he is wearing the shoes.

He tends to be shy and the bright multi color trousers are often a conversation starter for him as people tend to notice and comment so it seems to be a help to him to work on casual small talk. 

I can see that, even just because he can put them on and feel uplifted by them, they do have some value  

 

So though the cost of the clothing he got was more, and he will probably have outgrown it all while your dd’s purse is still getting use, I got to feeling okay with the purchase and the items.

Expensive as shoes and clothes go especially since he already had both—cheap as compared to psychotherapy or much entertainment these days  .

 

The ability of an object to Spark Joy has a value  

Especially if it can do it over and over  

 

[Pen]

Whaaaat? She lives on campus. ????  Oh gosh, I thought she was commuting from home. 

To me that becomes easy.

No car is needed for a student living on campus. 

 

[freesia]

I agree that you shouldn't get her a car. I was on a rural campus with no car and it was fine. I don't think it's fair to judge her as expecting a certain standard of living but being willing and wanting to help her maintain it. As long as you care as much or more about her having the car than she does, financing it will remain your problem. I know she knows she needs to pay for it but the need for the ready money is not urgent bc she knows you will spot her the money. I say don't buy her a car until she's paid for France.  Then she can freely choose how to use her money. 

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

Anyway - didn’t mean to go on that tangent necessarily, but the point was meant that our kids SEE that these things are lost income. Money not made. Good money after bad. They couldn’t miss it. I am sure an individual kid does not necessarily internalize it as well as another might like, “wow...that’s probably going to make them reluctant to spend money for a while...” But presumably, they would still recognize that none of these events are good. 

 

...and your kids see their dad flying in his plane (gas alone...$$$) while the family has lost income. Apparently your husband doesn't internalize it the way you do, respond the way you do, or even send the same message you do, so why would the kids? The kids probably think, "If he's doing this, everything is fine even if mom is a bit stressed." Then they probably strongly identify behaviorally with whichever parent is more like they are and behave accordingly. 

And I'm guessing you don't want kids behavior = husband's behavior (and a whole list of other people in your life that are foolish). 

I am really sorry. It stinks. I hope you can make some choices that make you feel more in control and come to some kind of peace with your DD and her finances. 

[Frances]

1 hour ago, StellaM said:

This thread just confirms for me this board skews financially privileged. And has little understanding of how most people live.

Quill, you've gotten some good advice amongst the defensiveness over brand purses...hope some of it works for you, and helps relieve the stress with dd, and the money stuff more generally. 

 

I don’t think being financially privileged is mutually exclusive with understanding how most people live. Many people that are well off were not always in the same economic class.

[Frances]

1 minute ago, StellaM said:

 

Thinking that a student deserves to splurge with $60 worth of 'fun money' while in debt is pretty exclusive of showing an understanding of how most students live. 

And do you know the financial situation of each person that supported and opposed this idea? If you’re familiar with books like “The Millionare Next Door”, you’ll find that many people that end up financially privileged are actually very careful with their spending.

[marbel]

As I read this thread all I keep thinking is that I buy cheap purses and probably in the last 12 months I have spent more than $60 because they don't last and when each one breaks, I go buy another cheap one, and hate it.  If I could find a quality purse that normally costs $100 for $60, I would buy it... if I had $60 to spend at that moment.   She might have thought "wow, what a great buy this is, Mom will be proud!"  

Quill, I know you are bowing out and I understand why; don't feel you have to respond to this. 

[wintermom]

37 minutes ago, Pen said:

Whaaaat? She lives on campus. ????  Oh gosh, I thought she was commuting from home. 

To me that becomes easy.

No car is needed for a student living on campus. 

 

Yes, the car is the biggest extravegance there is here, especially when you add in gas, insurance and maintanence. A purse compared to owning a car and living in residence = confusion for money priorities in MY mind. The only necessity I've seen in this thread is dental health. Oh well, each family has their own way of doing things. 

[Frances]

Just now, StellaM said:

 

Look, I'm really not interested in a back and forth which essentially, boils down to well off people being defensive about hearing that $60 on a handbag isn't frugal., and that most people  off board would consider it ridiculous for a student to think she can splurge in this way. 

Many people who are not financially privileged are also actually very careful with their spending. For example, they do not spend $60 on a handbag when they have existing debts.

 

What I’m saying is that all different types of people would think $60 for a handbag is fine and all sorts would find it ridiculous, I don’t think you can generalize from their view to their finances. In my family, we would have one in the far corners of each camp.

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

I said she doesn’t really have fun money. Fun money yes = have a cup of coffee out. Pick up a Krispy Kreme fresh with bf. Fun money no = go to mall. Buy a purse. Stop in Sephora and see what new lipsticks are coming out. Have dinner at Chipotle. 

The problem is that your DD has a bank account with money it, and she has a debt with no repayment schedule, so in her mind the money in her account, that she earned, is her money. In your mind, the money in her account is really YOUR money, and until the debt is paid off she has no right to spend it on things you disapprove of. But instead of telling her what your expectations are and setting up a payment schedule, you expect her to just absorb your own (rather extreme) level of frugality by osmosis, from living in your house. 

If you feel like the money in her account really belongs to you, then it needs to be in your account, not hers. Leaving it in her account on the pretext that you want her to "have a cushion," when she's really not allowed to spend that money without your approval (or risk a passive-aggressive text), is unfair to her. If you think $5 to $10 a month is the maximum she should be allowed to spend on "frivolous" things, then you need to make that clear. And if you believe that $10 spent on coffee and donuts is acceptable, but $10 spent on a lipstick is ridiculous, then give her a $10 gift card to Dunkin Donuts once/month until she's paid off her debt. At least then she'll know what your expectations are upfront and won't have to worry about being silently judged and criticized.

[LucyStoner]

2 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Thinking that a student deserves to splurge with $60 worth of 'fun money' while in debt is pretty exclusive of showing an understanding of how most students live. 

Some people cross class lines over their lifetime - many people overestimate the extent of this mobility occurs in the population.

 

I don't think it is a question of what anyone "deserves".   

Quill's daughter has been raised well off and, it seems, expecting the trappings of that relative to her peers.  It's not fair to assume she "should" or will behave like a 20-year-old girl who has been raised poor or taught to live very frugally.  She can't be expected to know what she has not learned any more than Quill can be expected to not be bothered by something like this given the past and present circumstances.  

A good many college students, from what I have seen in the US, DO actually have $60 or even much more in so-called fun money.  It might go to live music or drinking or books or road trips or fashion or takeout food or lecture fees for an interesting speaker.  It could be anything.  I have not found, even among the poorest students that ZERO discretionary spending is the norm.  For what's it's worth I literally used to volunteer to help formerly homeless young adults make budgets for college so I have seen a more than a couple of tight budgets besides my own up close and personal.  

I agree with you that class mobility is overestimated and that this board has a lot of privileged people on it.  I would take it a step further and say that most everyone who reads this board likely enjoys some degree of privilege in their life even those of us who either grew up poor or have lived on tight means as adults.  There are many kinds of privilege.  I do think many people are unaware of or defensive about their privileges.  But if I, a woman who grew up dirt poor and with any number of Jerry Springer type adverse life circumstances can rattle off a list of privileges I have benefited from, I guarantee most people have privilege if they stop and think honestly about it.  

[ktgrok]

18 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

 

Many people who are not financially privileged are also actually very careful with their spending. For example, they do not spend $60 on a handbag when they have existing debts.

 

Really? I mean, how many people have a mortgage and car loan - do you think they don't ever buy anything until those are paid off? Most would think it was acceptable to have a budget with a line item for the monthly car payment, a line item for the mortgage, and a line item for "fun money" or whatever. Obviously the money should go to those payments first, but if the payments are being made many would consider it totally acceptable to also buy a purse or $20 on a speaker or a magazine or whatever. 

The problem is that without a repayment plan worked out, the mom and daughter have different ideas of how much the line item "loan repayment" is. 

[Catwoman]

5 hours ago, Quill said:

No we do NOT just disagree, Cat. You pulled into this thread leveling some quite harsh accusations and making numerous assumptions about me. I don’t jump into your threads and call you jealous, judgemental and envious. 

This would be we disagree:

Me: “I am annoyed. My daughter bought a designer purse and I think that is wasteful.”

You: “oh, I’m sorry you’re annoyed! FWIW, I have always owned designer purses; I don’t think they are wasteful, I think they represent good taste.” 

 

You really should have made this a JAWM thread. 

Yes, I was harsh and judgmental. I absolutely admit that, but you asked for opinions and I posted mine. 

I really didn’t mean to be a jerk about it, but you really don’t seem to realize how judgmental you have been throughout this thread, as well — and I’m not trying to make excuses for myself by saying that. I posted what I believed and you are certainly entitled to disagree with me.

Whatever the case, I have been thinking about this and I’m wondering about something. I could be completely off-base with this, but it just occurred to me and I thought I would ask you about it...

Is this really about your daughter at all? 

I know that sounds crazy, but I was trying to put myself in your shoes and I was thinking that there you are, economizing on everything, depriving yourself of everything but a very occasional cup of coffee or a stupid can of paint for your front door, and you’re gardening and you’re canning and you’re raising chickens and you’re doing all kinds of stuff to be frugal and save money, and you’re worried about your rental properties and the eviction and the massive flood damage.... and then your husband gets an airplane. I don’t care if he built it or he bought it or whatever. It’s a plane. And meanwhile, you’re worrying all the time and depriving yourself of everything.  

Maybe you’re fine with it, but in your situation, I would be livid. All that work. All that saving. All that frugality. All that worrying. And he gets a plane. 

So I’m thinking that maybe you were feeling like things were incredibly unfair... and then your dd bought the purse and it was just the last straw. Not the last straw with her. She just happened to do the wrong thing at the wrong time and what normally would have been, “Wow, honey, $60 is a lot to spend on that purse. Are you sure you really want it?” is suddenly a big huge deal in your mind because somebody else in the family is spending money unnecessarily as well. 

Maybe I’m wrong about this. Maybe I’m overthinking it or I’m entirely on the wrong track. But all I know is that if I was like you and was very concerned about my family’s finances and my husband decided to get an airplane, it wouldn’t take much to put me over the edge.

 

[LucyStoner]

1 hour ago, StellaM said:

Of course we do! That's not in dispute. I benefited from a deferred loans system for my university studies, for example. I'm white, educated and well spoken - that's bucketloads of privilege. This thread is about finances, however. 

Idk. If it's the norm to have fun money for road trips and fashion while studying in the US, that's how it is.  If that is a majority position, I  would think that might indicate a problem with the intake of students from working class and poor families,.and I still would have zero issues with saying to my indebted student, sorry, you are going to have to go without till the debt is paid down. 

2

 

With many students in the US graduating with mortgage-sized student loan debts, I think many students take the view that the repayment of such loans as a long-term goal rather than a short-term pay off now and delay all splurges till later situation.  In the short term, most people will need things like socks and want things like coffee or takeout noodles from time to time.  I was poor enough and academically successful enough to finish up with what was essentially no debt (I opted to borrow ~$5000 via student loans one year when there were family medical bills and that was paid off in basically no time).  Honestly, I might have been smarter to borrow more and leverage those low cost funds into something that would have helped me down the road (for example, two of my friends used their student loans as a downpayment on a home and that has enabled them, 25 years out of school, to own 2 houses and an apartment building. I could definitely use two houses and an apartment building).  But even I, who lived on scrambled eggs and worked up to 4 jobs at a time, spent some money when I was 20 that I certainly didn't, strictly speaking, need to spend.  

I don't think it's the norm for everyone to have money for road trips and fashion and whatever else they may want but it is the norm for most college students to have some degree of discretionary spending.   

ETA:  Most of us have financial privileges too.  Having been homeless as a child, I view having a roof, food security, and transportation to be, relatively speaking, fantastic privileges.  

[Guest]

@Catwoman no, it is not about the airplane. The kit for the airplane predates my entry into the family by several years and was inherited from my FIL when he died in 1998. He and his brothers and father have all been pilots since before we met. 

Also, I like canning tomatoes. I like having chickens. I don’t force myself to eek by on one coffee at Starbucks a month; I am totally disinterested in a coffee at SBs. I only get one because I meet my friend there and I think it is rude to use their space and generate no revenue for them. 

My only issue with the airplane is that I would like for him not to crash to his burning death. They have all crashed at least once except my dh. The statistics for crashing in small plans are not good for survival rate, but those lucky BILs have all cashed in their freebie lucky break by having a non-fatal crash landing. 

 

[LucyStoner]

5 minutes ago, WendyAndMilo said:

I am currently in college full time and A LOT of what I hear is "We're going out to X place after class, come with us!" or there's an all-night sleepover in the classroom and everyone brings drinks and food.  Stuff like that.

If the student didn't have a healthy amount of discretionary funds, college would soon become a very isolating place.  I imagine depression would follow.

 

This is one of the things that universities are seeking to address with first generation student programs.  

[Lang Syne Boardie]

3 minutes ago, WendyAndMilo said:

I am currently in college full time and A LOT of what I hear is "We're going out to X place after class, come with us!" or there's an all-night sleepover in the classroom and everyone brings drinks and food.  Stuff like that.

If the student didn't have a healthy amount of discretionary funds, college would soon become a very isolating place.  I imagine depression would follow.

 

That's one thing I love about my son's commuter college. (There are dorms but the commuters stick together.) It's more like, "I'm bringing sandwiches from home," or "I'm hosting Magic the Gathering at my off-campus apartment with roommates, I'll make popcorn and coffee and I'm eating dinner beforehand, but feel free to bring what you like," or "My grandma gave me a gift card to Steak and Shake! Let's go!"

They also shop at Goodwill and thrift stores, and carpool for out-of-town free entertainment, and graduate with their tiny student loans (after hefty tuition scholarships for poor kids with amazing SAT scores)…PAID.

A lot of people don't know about this subset of millennials, but they are wonderful and could have survived in any era. They work incredibly hard - school and jobs - and watch every dime, and plan their splurges carefully.

I will agree with *everyone* that this motivation comes from inside the young person and cannot be required of them, not even by parents. Not in this era of consumerism and credit, and with the overwhelmed life that we all have to live. These kids do it because it suits their goals and decisions, and because there is mostly just moral support from home - the home support came in the form of a terrific childhood and the type of high school years that lead to a good work ethic and good scholarships. But there's no money, just an offer to live at home during undergrad...which my son and his commuting friends all rejected in favor of "roughing it" on their own.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

4 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

 

This is one of the things that universities are seeking to address with first generation student programs.  

 

Yes. It IS important. This is one reason we encouraged our kids to go local and commute, because we knew they wouldn't be able to keep up in this way and possibly in other ways. There are more adult safety nets and support available to commuters with local families. It's far easier to "rough it" as I described as a commuter in a good-sized city than has a full-time student living on campus. 100%.

[Catwoman]

6 minutes ago, Quill said:

@Catwoman no, it is not about the airplane. The kit for the airplane predates my entry into the family by several years and was inherited from my FIL when he died in 1998. He and his brothers and father have all been pilots since before we met. 

Also, I like canning tomatoes. I like having chickens. I don’t force myself to eek by on one coffee at Starbucks a month; I am totally disinterested in a coffee at SBs. I only get one because I meet my friend there and I think it is rude to use their space and generate no revenue for them. 

My only issue with the airplane is that I would like for him not to crash to his burning death. They have all crashed at least once except my dh. The statistics for crashing in small plans are not good for survival rate, but those lucky BILs have all cashed in their freebie lucky break by having a non-fatal crash landing. 

 

 

Thanks for clearing that up. I was obviously on the wrong track. 

I hope your dh gets home safely and that he doesn’t spend a lot of time flying that plane. It’s scary that his family members have all crashed — it’s amazing that they are all okay. 

[LucyStoner]

14 minutes ago, Tibbie Dunbar said:

 

Yes. It IS important. This is one reason we encouraged our kids to go local and commute, because we knew they wouldn't be able to keep up in this way and possibly in other ways. There are more adult safety nets and support available to commuters with local families. It's far easier to "rough it" as I described as a commuter in a good-sized city than has a full-time student living on campus. 100%.

 

Sometimes I think I probably should have gone to one of the big-name private colleges I was accepted to on the East Coast but in the end, I probably fared better at the time anyways as a poor student going where there were many other poor students.  A great many of my friends from high school, from more affluent families than mine, did go to such schools and almost all of them transferred out because they either couldn't or wouldn't deal with the money based status factors.  I recall one of my (rich) high school friends, whom I was supposed to room with at one of those colleges (I backed out at the last minute) brought home a couple of her friends from school and they were completely shocked to learn that I worked in a ticket office, selling tickets and our other friend worked as a bank teller!  When they heard that I worked at the opera and he worked at a bank they assumed that we were both doing some sort of interesting internship.  It was out of their range of experience that 19-year-old kids worked to support themselves.  

[Tsuga]

1 hour ago, marbel said:

As I read this thread all I keep thinking is that I buy cheap purses and probably in the last 12 months I have spent more than $60 because they don't last and when each one breaks, I go buy another cheap one, and hate it. 

 

For some professions, you need a purse. But a student can certainly buy a backpack and have no purse.  A sturdy backpack costs what, $25? And I certainly don't judge an adult on her own for budgeting for a purse!

Now, there is a lot to be said about wealth, work, how we learn from our kids, hoe they learn from us, whether our kids have a right to their own wages, etc. etc.

But in my world a purse is unnecessary; a fancy purse is something like a European car. Very nice to have once you have made it but absolutely not necessary or economical by any stretch of the imagination.

[Frances]

16 minutes ago, Tibbie Dunbar said:

 

That's one thing I love about my son's commuter college. (There are dorms but the commuters stick together.) It's more like, "I'm bringing sandwiches from home," or "I'm hosting Magic the Gathering at my off-campus apartment with roommates, I'll make popcorn and coffee and I'm eating dinner beforehand, but feel free to bring what you like," or "My grandma gave me a gift card to Steak and Shake! Let's go!"

They also shop at Goodwill and thrift stores, and carpool for out-of-town free entertainment, and graduate with their tiny student loans (after hefty tuition scholarships for poor kids with amazing SAT scores)…PAID.

A lot of people don't know about this subset of millennials, but they are wonderful and could have survived in any era. They work incredibly hard - school and jobs - and watch every dime, and plan their splurges carefully.

I will agree with *everyone* that this motivation comes from inside the young person and cannot be required of them, not even by parents. Not in this era of consumerism and credit, and with the overwhelmed life that we all have to live. These kids do it because it suits their goals and decisions, and because there is mostly just moral support from home - the home support came in the form of a terrific childhood and the type of high school years that lead to a good work ethic and good scholarships. But there's no money, just an offer to live at home during undergrad...which my son and his commuting friends all rejected in favor of "roughing it" on their own.

I found this same attitude among my son and many of his friends on full tuition scholarships whose parents were paying a set amount for off campus room and board. My son worked part-time during the school year and seven days per week at two jobs during the summer despite having virtually no college expenses, and graduated with substantial savings. His working class roommate of three years never had a job, even during the summer, and took out the maximum student loans. So as I said upthread, I think habits and attitudes about finances can and do cross economic lines.

[Bluegoat]

Well, I'm late to this, but it would bother me, even though I think that $60 for a really good bag might be good value.  (I'm less sold on designer, one of my biases from the more privileged sector of my family tree is that designer stuff is kind of middle class.)  But I do value quality, good craftsmanship, and good jobs for people making the products.

However, even if I felt like the trip money was being paid back reasonably I'd be worried about the tax money owed and lack of cash on hand for a car.

But what would really bother me is the sense that my child - even granted the good value on the bag - seemed not to be clear that almost all of the things that seem normal in a consumerist culture, are absolutely unnecessary.  I kind of think this is like the realization that being popular is never really a necessity, it's something you need to realize in fact, not just in principle, to be mature.  

I do think though, for most people a lot of this stuff has to be experienced before they really get it.  

Quill, for me if your dd is living on campus, I'd not offer to help with the car.  It's a want, it might make a big difference to her lifestyle, but that is the experience that maybe she needs now, to make her observations over the years really click into place.

 

[LucyStoner]

21 minutes ago, Tsuga said:

 

For some professions, you need a purse. But a student can certainly buy a backpack and have no purse.  A sturdy backpack costs what, $25?

Now, there is a lot to be said about wealth, work, how we learn from our kids, hoe they learn from us, whether our kids have a right to their own wages, etc. etc.

But in my world a purse is unnecessary; a fancy purse is something like a European car. Very nice to have once you have made it but absolutely not necessary or economical by any stretch of the imagination.

 

 

IME, closer to $60 for one large enough for a college student and sporting a zipper that won't break.  I spent $35ish on sale for a Jansport for my son for the 8th grade and I had to replace it for 9th grade because the thing was too darn small EVEN THOUGH they don't carry textbooks anymore.  The replacement was more like $85 on clearance at REI but I arranged for it to be a gift from my dad.  ?  And he knows it is expected to last the entire time he is in high school and on into college.   My husband has a backpack from Costco.  $40ish and the thing is falling apart (granted, he did get a lot of use out of it but most people would have trashed it long ago, lol).  Quality is getting expensive AF IMO.  

ETA:  incidentally my son's backpack is a "fancy" brand name but we didn't buy it for the name, we bought it for the size, the quality, the internal organization and knowing that if it proved defective, REI would back up the warranty.  My niece is getting the Jansport that was too small for my son because she's 11 and can manage with less stuff in her bag and it happens to be her favorite color.  

[Frances]

22 minutes ago, Tibbie Dunbar said:

 

Yes. It IS important. This is one reason we encouraged our kids to go local and commute, because we knew they wouldn't be able to keep up in this way and possibly in other ways. There are more adult safety nets and support available to commuters with local families. It's far easier to "rough it" as I described as a commuter in a good-sized city than has a full-time student living on campus. 100%.

And I think this is the norm in many countries outside of the US.

[SeaConquest]

2 hours ago, StellaM said:

This thread just confirms for me this board skews financially privileged. And has little understanding of how most people live.

Quill, you've gotten some good advice amongst the defensiveness over brand purses...hope some of it works for you, and helps relieve the stress with dd, and the money stuff more generally. 

 

It's funny how people can see the same set of facts and reach completely different conclusions because this board consistently skews incredibly frugal IMO compared to my experience with friends and family IRL. I am seriously constantly in awe of just how frugal most of the people here are (or maybe it's just the ones who post about finances).  

The fact that anyone thinks that $60 for a handbag is a ridiculous splurge (as a general matter, not in this situation specifically) seriously blows my mind. I have also never met a student who lives the kind of austere lifestyle you describe. Do some people do it? Sure. Is it the norm? Not in my experience.

 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Just now, SeaConquest said:

 

It's funny how people can see the same set of facts and reach completely different conclusions because this board consistently skews incredibly frugal IMO compared to my experience with friends and family IRL. I am seriously constantly in awe of just how frugal most of the people here are (or maybe just the ones who post about finances are.)  

The fact that anyone thinks that $60 for a handbag is a ridiculous splurge (as a general matter, not in this situation specifically) seriously blows my mind. I have also never met a student who lives the kind of austere lifestyle you describe. Do some people do it? Sure. Is it the norm? Not in my experience.

 

Whatcha doin'? Bragging?

Sorry, but really, you can't imagine poor people and have never met one?

[marbel]

14 minutes ago, Tsuga said:

 

For some professions, you need a purse. But a student can certainly buy a backpack and have no purse.  A sturdy backpack costs what, $25? And I certainly don't judge an adult on her own for budgeting for a purse!

Now, there is a lot to be said about wealth, work, how we learn from our kids, hoe they learn from us, whether our kids have a right to their own wages, etc. etc.

But in my world a purse is unnecessary; a fancy purse is something like a European car. Very nice to have once you have made it but absolutely not necessary or economical by any stretch of the imagination.

Well, I don't know anything about your world, or Quill's daughter's world either.

I know in my world, $25 is going to get you a very poorly-made backpack that won't last a semester.

I might be wrong, but I think Quill's daughter might be a senior. Someone up thread may have mentioned job interviews and internships. I've no idea if that's on the agenda. But I imagine that looking professional might be a plus for someone who is going to be looking for professional jobs (if that is indeed what she might be doing soon).

Of course I'm just speculating. Just saying that under some circumstances a purse might be more desirable than a backpack, and not just for showing off one's sense of style.  And, $60 for a well-made purse that will last for years... doesn't seem crazy expensive to me.  

And, fwiw, I grew up with an extremely frugal mother, and I went a little crazy when I started earning a little money of my own. 'Cause, dang, I was sick of used clothes and hand me downs. I got over it.

[shawthorne44]

 

Also, I think many people are thinking of what they themselves might spend money on at this point in their lives.   And they are saying to themselves, I'd buy a fancy purse for $60 on sale.  I think a better thought-process would be for people to think back on when they bought their first expensive purse.  I mean with their own money while being self-supporting, not with the parent's money.   

I've bought one expensive purse in my life.   It was $100 from Overstock, supposed retail $400.  A Lauren I think.  In that case it was about status.   My job at the time required me to dress upper-class business casual for work.   I had to look like an expert to people I just met.   I was in my 30's and I owned a home which was paid off, or near so.   I used the purse for a couple of years and then I lost it or it was stolen.  I'd changed jobs about then, so I wasn't particularly worried about it.  

 

[Starfish]

3 hours ago, Quill said:

There is a gratefulness thing, no question. I want some fawning, too. 

 

It feels awkward to post this late in the thread, but this sentence caught my attention.  As someone who grew up rough and neglected, I'm trying to quit expecting my children to be grateful for their safe lifestyle.  They're terrific kids who are hardworking, caring, and appreciative.  They just don't have the same life experience that I do.  Some days it rankles me but overall I'm truly thankful that we've been able to provide for our family.   I hope you find some peace and get some sleep. 

[Katy]

1 minute ago, Tibbie Dunbar said:

Whatcha doin'? Bragging?

Sorry, but really, you can't imagine poor people and have never met one?

 

A lot of poor people still waste money, they just waste money on different things.  Others who should be frugal if they were wise often live beyond their means. 

I think this board skews both privileged and frugal. Privileged because most couples who choose to home school can do so with one spouse's income only.  Privileged because we can choose to value quality education over the extra financial security a second income might bring. Frugal because we wouldn't be able to comfortably do so within our means if we weren't frugal, however relative that might be to our own individual circumstances.  Count me as one who really would argue that buying a quality bag on sale that will be used for years is much less expensive overall than a $30 bag from Target that lasts less than 3 months before falling apart.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Katy, there are people who absolutely know that it's cheaper and better to buy a $60 purse that will last for 15 years than that nondescript, not name brand, not leather satchel at Goodwill for $6, but they don't have $60 so it doesn't matter that they've heard of quality.

Poor people cannot take advantage of heavy discounts and bargains because they don't have the dosh up front.

Poor people. They're everywhere. If I'm starting to sound a little sarcastic, it's because I'm trying to explain that there are poor people.

[freesia]

BTW My Target bags last for years. 

[SeaConquest]

20 minutes ago, Tibbie Dunbar said:

Whatcha doin'? Bragging?

Sorry, but really, you can't imagine poor people and have never met one?

 

Not at all. I've been a student for a huge chunk of my life, and I just never saw what she described as the norm for students. People not able to get a Starbucks? Seriously. And I paid for schooling entirely myself, with the help of military service and student loans.

[SeaConquest]

18 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

So do you ever think your experience might not be the norm ? 

 

 

 

 

Yes, certainly. I wondered if you did.

[LucyStoner]

2 minutes ago, freesia said:

BTW My Target bags last for years. 

 

Quality can be very hit and miss.  I've had "nice" things that were supposed to last but didn't and cheap things that just keep kicking it.  What bothers me is that increasingly, cheap things aren't that cheap pricewise!  

[BarbecueMom]

1 minute ago, freesia said:

BTW My Target bags last for years. 

Same.  And they seem to last extra long when they're ugly but that's all I could find. When they do fall apart, there's duct tape, twist ties, zip ties, swearing under your breath when a handful of inner-bag-peelings confetti falls out...

I think it's funny how this board looks frugal/privileged through different lenses.  Going off purses for a second, I'd never heard of Le Creuset until reading about it on this board.  I've never seen one, don't know anyone who has one, don't know where you'd buy one.  In fact, if it hadn't been for Doug Judy getting one for Jake and Amy as a wedding gift, I wouldn't have realized I was pronouncing it wrong.  Thanks, Brooklyn Nine-Nine.  Getting pronunciation help from sitcoms has to be on a social class sorting list somewhere.

[SeaConquest]

38 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

 

Also, I think many people are thinking of what they themselves might spend money on at this point in their lives.   And they are saying to themselves, I'd buy a fancy purse for $60 on sale.  I think a better thought-process would be for people to think back on when they bought their first expensive purse.  I mean with their own money while being self-supporting, not with the parent's money.   

I've bought one expensive purse in my life.   It was $100 from Overstock, supposed retail $400.  A Lauren I think.  In that case it was about status.   My job at the time required me to dress upper-class business casual for work.   I had to look like an expert to people I just met.   I was in my 30's and I owned a home which was paid off, or near so.   I used the purse for a couple of years and then I lost it or it was stolen.  I'd changed jobs about then, so I wasn't particularly worried about it.  

 

 

I guess I am remembering back to when I had my first job, at age 15 (back when they didn't check IDs) at Wet Seal. I got that job specifically so that I could have funny money and could blow it on frivolous things like clothes and handbags. I made a ton of money working retail because I was still living at home, and perhaps my mom was silently judging how I spent what I perceived to be my own hard earned cash. They paid for my car because they had agreed to do so if I maintained a certain GPA. But, I honestly never got grief from my mom about my spending habits, even though they were most certainly frivolous. I also went on a study abroad program to the then USSR at that age (that changed my life, so I appreciate the value of study abroad). I got a job flipping pizzas so that I could afford to go (my parents did help me some with that trip, but I paid for a substantial chunk of it -- they always wanted me to have skin in the game).