I’m annoyed by what I view as an unnecessary purchase

[elegantlion]

Fyi, when I worked for a temp agency, I was their employee and received a W2. Even though I had some freedom to accept or decline jobs, I  was still their employee. 

[Guest]

Quote

So what you're saying here is that upthread you were lying to yourself when you said you were fine with her spending money on some frivolous things, because you're not okay with it.  At all.

Listen. Once a month, I go meet a friend at Starbucks to talk about books, politics, sometimes our kids, and birds. When I go, I get some kind of drink, in my reusable mug, because it’s just right to patronize a business when you sit at a table for three hours. I call this frivolous. I do not need a coffee drink. It is virtually the only time I buy them.

This is what I’m thinking of when I say I am fine with her spending some money on frivolous things. 

[shawthorne44]

 

People are focused on the purse, when that was just the tipping point.   Don't forget the uber-expensive makeup and skin products, and regular latte purchases.  That adds up to a lot of money each month.   Her DD is completely disrespecting and taking advantage of her, even if that isn't her intent.  

Also, I think purses are one of those things where any money spent over $10 is ALL about status and not about durability.   Goodwill always has an excellent selection of really nice leather purses.   I've gone to Goodwill to buy a leather something just to chop it up to be re-purposed.   Then the purse I bought was so nice, I couldn't bring myself to do it.  The purse I currently use, a Coach, was purchased at Goodwill.  I was at my MIL's and I asked for a plastic grocery sack to take some stuff home.   She offered me the purse that she had been given.   
 

[Catwoman]

20 minutes ago, DawnM said:

 

A gateway drug?  

No.  It is a mistake on the daughter's part, a frivolous purchase, something that upset her mother, but it was $60 purse, not a $60,000 car.  

I spent on things I shouldn't have when I was younger.  It is a growing process.  She is young.  She can still learn.  She is not "hooked on spending and will do anything for her next fix" now.

 

 

Yes, and in the daughter’s defense, it’s not like she has racked up a ton of credit card debt or bounced a bunch of checks. Her debts seem pretty reasonable overall. 

And I hardly think that one $60 purchase counts as a “gateway drug.” 

14 minutes ago, Quill said:

Cat, I do not care what other people do. I am not looking around at people going, “GASP! She has a Gobbledygook Purse! She must be a snobby rich lady!” Or, “She drives an Acura, when she could simply drive a Chevy! She must be condescending towards all us regular people in an old van!” I could not care less what regular people around me do, assuming they are just going about their business. (I have a beef with outright bragging that is clearly meant to try to boost the person’s self image; I have encountered it.) 

But it seems like you refuse to acknowledge that certain goods are a status symbol. That is their actual purpose and is the actual purpose of their price point. As I pointed out, some people dress their babies in tiny Ugg boots or North face snowsuits or whatever thing. They may be cute; it is likely they are, but they are not needed for durability or performance. The parents just want people to go, “oMG! Look at that baby with those tiny little Uggs!” The point is to induce admiration. 

Again - do I personally care if someone wants to put tiny brand clothes on her baby? I do not personally care as an outside observer. But if, say, my grandkid lived with me and I was being financial and social support for my kid and grandkid? I would be mad about tiny Ugg boots and I would say so. 

PS. I do think many  young adults get caught in a bad financial trap precisely because of what you said here: they just think that’s what everybody does. It is normal because it is common, but just because it’s common does not mean it is wise. 

 

But again, you are totally missing the point. You are convinced that people buy things because they are “status symbols” and because they “induce admiration.”

You are wrong.

Many people buy things because they like them and they can afford them. Period. The end. They really don’t care what you or anyone else thinks of the things they buy. So what if some of those items were designed to be status symbols? Does that mean that no one should like them or buy them?

Just because buying expensive things may not be normal for you doesn’t mean that other people are shallow and status-seeking because it’s normal for them to buy those things.

You keep saying you don’t care what other people do and that you don’t notice that people drive certain cars or carry certain handbags, but in the same posts, you are absolutely negatively judging them, so it seems like you really do notice and you do care. You seem to have a real issue with things like designer handbags (and even handbags in general, which still baffles me,) and you do judge people for purchasing those things.

[Katy]

3 minutes ago, Quill said:

Listen. Once a month, I go meet a friend at Starbucks to talk about books, politics, sometimes our kids, and birds. When I go, I get some kind of drink, in my reusable mug, because it’s just right to patronize a business when you sit at a table for three hours. I call this frivolous. I do not need a coffee drink. It is virtually the only time I buy them.

This is what I’m thinking of when I say I am fine with her spending some money on frivolous things. 

 

So $5-10 a month is your limit?  That's fine.  But she needs to know that amount, and that you expect her to pay you back ASAP, not some vague "okay with frivolous purchases, EXCEPT this thing that bugs me because I was smart enough to not buy that very same thing that I wanted when I was your age, that I sort of want now, and I expect you to intuitively understand that's a bad decision despite never having had that conversation with you before."

[Katy]

Just now, shawthorne44 said:

 

People are focused on the purse, when that was just the tipping point.   Don't forget the uber-expensive makeup and skin products, and regular latte purchases.  That adds up to a lot of money each month.   Her DD is completely disrespecting and taking advantage of her, even if that isn't her intent.  

Also, I think purses are one of those things where any money spent over $10 is ALL about status and not about durability.   Goodwill always has an excellent selection of really nice leather purses.   I've gone to Goodwill to buy a leather something just to chop it up to be re-purposed.   Then the purse I bought was so nice, I couldn't bring myself to do it.  The purse I currently use, a Coach, was purchased at Goodwill.  I was at my MIL's and I asked for a plastic grocery sack to take some stuff home.   She offered me the purse that she had been given.   
 

 

No the makeup was a gift.  And it's fine to have expectations that daughter pay her back ASAP, but it's unfair to tell daughter "whenever" but mean "ASAP."

[hjffkj]

12 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

 

I am seeing the problem as lack of a prepayment plan which makes things snowball emotionally. When paying debt money and fun money aren’t clearly defined in her daughter’s budget, things do get emotionally charged because of human nature. 

For example, my husband flew to his hometown last week for a conference so his parents and siblings gave him a long shopping list for gifts. I let him know how much I would need for our kids homeschool expenses next year (2018/19) that I would probably have to pay up by next month. So we were clear about the maximum he could spend on gifts without affecting homeschool funds. That way I don’t get upset over his spending unless he overshoots the maximum amount in which case we could access what gifts to return to store.

To be fair to OP, I was paying for my dental works in college because my college dental services are very affordable. My parents would have helped if I couldn’t afford important urgent dental work.  OP is paying for her daughter’s dental work. That would already be more than enough to pay for many cans of paint and other “frivolous” items. 

Put in another way. My husband and I are carrying around $40k of mortgage debt as the only debt. We are saving for college as my kids are a year apart so would be double whammy most years for college expenses. Spending $30 on frappes per month would probably seems frivolous because I don’t even have a purse or a nicely painted door to show for what I spent. However in my household budget, $30 for fun money which I happened to spend on frappes doesn’t look like a huge amount or frivolous. So that’s how I see OP’s expense on door paint. 

 

See I understand this.  And if the OP had said, she hasn't paid anything towards the debt, she is constantly buying a new designer purse, jewelry, etc. Then I can see the annoyance. But  from what I read, I may have missed, she has given me no indication that the dd has a spending problem.  She may have a money management problem but it is hard to actually see that because I do not know the extent to which OP has taught her dd that her parents will provide XYZ. A parent who always pays for XYZ for a child even into early adulthood can't just expect that child will get all their shit together once the parent decides it is time for them to.

[Guest]

Not ALL the makeup has been a gift. I have bought makeup as a gift she requested but she also buys it too. 

And I do not “sort of want it now.” (A purse.) That is what I DO NOT GET. I do not carry a purse. I carry a wrist wallet. If/when I have to carry a bunch of other crap around, I carry a tote bag. 

And I have never told her “whenever.” I do not currently have a set payment plan but it is not and has never been “whenever.” I never told her “whenever.” I laboriously tallied every expense, granted her the gift portion and then showed her exactly what she owed me, which she has begun to pay. My bad part was that I never made her pay a specific amount on a specific timetable. 

[elegantlion]

I wish my thrift stores had good leather purses. They don't around here. 

[hjffkj]

5 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

 

People are focused on the purse, when that was just the tipping point.   Don't forget the uber-expensive makeup and skin products, and regular latte purchases.  That adds up to a lot of money each month.   Her DD is completely disrespecting and taking advantage of her, even if that isn't her intent.  

Also, I think purses are one of those things where any money spent over $10 is ALL about status and not about durability.   Goodwill always has an excellent selection of really nice leather purses.   I've gone to Goodwill to buy a leather something just to chop it up to be re-purposed.   Then the purse I bought was so nice, I couldn't bring myself to do it.  The purse I currently use, a Coach, was purchased at Goodwill.  I was at my MIL's and I asked for a plastic grocery sack to take some stuff home.   She offered me the purse that she had been given.   
 

Somehow I missed that make-up and all that.  But I wouldn't go as far to say the dd is disrespecting her.  She has paid back a portion of the loan and OP never set up a payment plan.  So to expect a young adult to know when a parent, who regularly provides financial help that isn't meant to be paid back, has a specific prepayment timeline in their head that isn't stated out loud is silly.  It just shows that they have different values when it comes to money and that either OP help guide her dd towards better money management or she just doesn't loan her money again.  Because if a parent is going to be judging a child on their spending habit that parent shouldn't be lending them money

[Katy]

1 minute ago, Quill said:

Not ALL the makeup has been a gift. I have bought makeup as a gift she requested but she also buys it too. 

And I do not “sort of want it now.” (A purse.) That is what I DO NOT GET. I do not carry a purse. I carry a wrist wallet. If/when I have to carry a bunch of other crap around, I carry a tote bag. 

And I have never told her “whenever.” I do not currently have a set payment plan but it is not and has never been “whenever.” I never told her “whenever.” I laboriously tallied every expense, granted her the gift portion and then showed her exactly what she owed me, which she has begun to pay. My bad part was that I never made her pay a specific amount on a specific timetable. 

 

I think it's fine to not have a timetable, given what you said earlier about school & double majors, etc.  I think the problem is that you haven't specified what amount you're okay with her spending on frivolous things while she pays you back. If you've indicated in the past that you're okay with some purchases, you've indicated you're not currently in need of getting paid back ASAP. I think you need to tell her ASAP, and whatever dollar amount you're okay with her using as fun money in the mean time. I don't think it's fair for you to dictate how she spends her fun money.

[Matryoshka]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

@LucyStoner but she isn’t paid by the parents as an employee of the parents. She is paid by the agency as an employee of the agency. Isn’t this the same thing as working under any referral company, like a temp secretarial agency?

You are saying she is being paid as an employee of the agency, but she isn't.  She's being paid as a contractor, with a 1099.  Temp secretarial agencies do pay their temps as employees, not contractors. (As in, they pay half of SS and Medicare and file a W-2, not a 1099). Contractors are supposed to be able to set their own hours.  A nanny cannot. 

[DawnM]

11 minutes ago, elegantlion said:

I wish my thrift stores had good leather purses. They don't around here. 

 

I once got a very nice leather purse (Markowski is the brand, I hadn't heard of it before, and it sounded like a Monsters' Inc name) but I paid $8.  The purse has a retail value of $285, or did at the time.  

But I only use it for places like church.  Otherwise I prefer a cross-body bag for comfort and carrying.  There is a no-name brand that makes fantastic leather cross body purse that last FOREVER, but they are no longer a bargain.  People have found out about them AND the area's rent for the booth at Pike Place has skyrocketed.  So, her $30 purses are now $65.  But I digress.

I agree.....I wish our thrift store were as good.  We used to find good deals, but I think with the economy, more and more people go there and there just isn't a whole lot left when I get there.

[Catwoman]

18 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

 

People are focused on the purse, when that was just the tipping point.   Don't forget the uber-expensive makeup and skin products, and regular latte purchases.  That adds up to a lot of money each month.   Her DD is completely disrespecting and taking advantage of her, even if that isn't her intent.  

Also, I think purses are one of those things where any money spent over $10 is ALL about status and not about durability.   Goodwill always has an excellent selection of really nice leather purses.   I've gone to Goodwill to buy a leather something just to chop it up to be re-purposed.   Then the purse I bought was so nice, I couldn't bring myself to do it.  The purse I currently use, a Coach, was purchased at Goodwill.  I was at my MIL's and I asked for a plastic grocery sack to take some stuff home.   She offered me the purse that she had been given.   
 

 

I’m a little confused about your statement that any money over $10 spent on a purse is all about status. What if people don’t live near a Goodwill that has great stuff for cheap prices? What if they spend $20 on a new purse from Walmart because that’s the only store in their area? Are you saying that they bought the $20 Walmart purse as a status symbol?

Also, your local Goodwill wouldn’t have all of those really nice leather purses if no one ever bought them brand new and later donated them. It seems like you want the good quality leather purse, but you don’t want to pay for it, so are you saying that it’s no longer a status symbol because you bought it at a bargain price?

I hope this post doesn’t sound snarky, because I truly don’t mean it that way. I’m honestly just trying to figure out what you mean.

[katilac]

If your dd has that much money in the bank, along with a job, I can see why she doesn't think paying you back is a big deal, given that you haven't discussed any sepcifics. Not having her pay out of savings, not having a payment plan, not talking about expectations - you are doing a lot to make your dd think that this is not a priority, but then you get mad when she acts like it's not a priority. She is not going to respond the way you would have in the same situation, because she doesn't have the same background or experiences, because she's getting mixed signals, and because she isn't you. 

Quit focusing on what you think she should know without being told, and just tell her. "dd, you have X amount of money in the bank, and you will make about Y more before going back to school, so I think paying back Z amount this summer is fair. Once you are back in school, you need to limit your fun spending to $10 per week until the debts are paid." Or $5 per week, or no dollars per week. Just tell the girl what is expected of her. 

There are all kinds of ways to handle college expenses, living expenses, and loans. Most of those ways work out just fine, but everybody has to be on the same page. Everybody has to know what the expectations are. 

 

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

Yes, and in the daughter’s defense, it’s not like she has racked up a ton of credit card debt or bounced a bunch of checks. Her debts seem pretty reasonable overall. 

And I hardly think that one $60 purchase counts as a “gateway drug.” And 

 

But again, you are totally missing the point. You are convinced that people buy things because they are “status symbols” and because they “induce admiration.”

You are wrong.

Many people buy things because they like them and they can afford them. Period. The end. They really don’t care what you or anyone else thinks of the things they buy. So what if some of those items were designed to be status symbols? Does that mean that no one should like them or buy them?

Just because buying expensive things may not be normal for you doesn’t mean that other people are shallow and status-seeking because it’s normal for them to buy those things.

You keep saying you don’t care what other people do and that you don’t notice that people drive certain cars or carry certain handbags, but in the same posts, you are absolutely negatively judging them, so it seems like you really do notice and you do care. You seem to have a real issue with things like designer handbags (and even handbags in general, which still baffles me,) and you do judge people for purchasing those things.

Many people like them because they are “in.” And many people buy such things though they cannot afford them. They buy things on credit and they think that means they “can afford” them. 

People do buy things because it fits their image of themselves and what they want to convey to others. Even frugality can be a game one plays because it fits their image of themselves. I do this. Seeing how long you can make a car last also fits a certain self-image. 

I notice when the person makes a “thing” of it. I have one relative who will falsly complain about her fancy things. She just did this about her new high end car. I said, “wow! That is beautiful!” And then she gave that ho-hum voice and said what she doesn’t like about it. “Oh, I miss my van...yeah, it’s nice, but it’s not enough room...” 

I just don’t get what idea it is in your head that I’m staring around at people’s things and deeming them terrible people. In most cases, I don’t even know what sort of purse people have. Unless something particular brings it to my attention, I don’t focus on it. 

I shared a story about a designer purse from like 22 years ago. At that time, yes, I did know what purses other secretaries had because these were things people conversed about. “Hi, Jane! Hey, look! I got this incredible deal on this FancySchmancy purse! Can you believe it was only $98?!” That was what we all talked about at the time. It’s not like my 50-year-old Bunko moms do this. 

[katilac]

27 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

 

Also, I think purses are one of those things where any money spent over $10 is ALL about status and not about durability.   Goodwill always has an excellent selection of really nice leather purses.  

 

 

Um, no. Your Goodwill always has an excellent selection of really nice leather purses. I promise you that mine does not, and that the non-leather, non-brand name purses are often priced above $10. 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

I’m a little confused about your statement that any money over $10 spent on a purse is all about status. What if people don’t live near a Goodwill that has great stuff for cheap prices? What if they spend $20 on a new purse from Walmart because that’s the only store in their area? Are you saying that they bought the $20 Walmart purse as a status symbol?

Also, your local Goodwill wouldn’t have all of those really nice leather purses if no one ever bought them brand new and later donated them. It seems like you want the good quality leather purse, but you don’t want to pay for it, so are you saying that it’s no longer a status symbol because you bought it at a bargain price?

I hope this post doesn’t sound snarky, because I truly don’t mean it that way. I’m honestly just trying to figure out what you mean.

Yes, shawthorne, don’t worry; she’s not being snarky to you. Just me. 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, katilac said:

If your dd has that much money in the bank, along with a job, I can see why she doesn't think paying you back is a big deal, given that you haven't discussed any sepcifics. Not having her pay out of savings, not having a payment plan, not talking about expectations - you are doing a lot to make your dd think that this is not a priority, but then you get mad when she acts like it's not a priority. She is not going to respond the way you would have in the same situation, because she doesn't have the same background or experiences, because she's getting mixed signals, and because she isn't you. 

Quit focusing on what you think she should know without being told, and just tell her. "dd, you have X amount of money in the bank, and you will make about Y more before going back to school, so I think paying back Z amount this summer is fair. Once you are back in school, you need to limit your fun spending to $10 per week until the debts are paid." Or $5 per week, or no dollars per week. Just tell the girl what is expected of her. 

There are all kinds of ways to handle college expenses, living expenses, and loans. Most of those ways work out just fine, but everybody has to be on the same page. Everybody has to know what the expectations are. 

 

You are mistaken about the bolded. I do not have a timed, specific payment plan but she knows it is a priority. It is an inescapable part of the conversation since the car broke down, because she obviously does not have $8,600 available, which is what it would take to pay the debts and buy a car. Before the car broke, I was saying, “It feels uncomfortable to me because you are behind the 8 ball and you will have to save money to replace your car...hopefully it will last until you graduate, but it concerns me you don’t have a cushion...” 

What she hasn’t known about is all the other implications with our income. 

[fairfarmhand]

29 minutes ago, Quill said:

Not ALL the makeup has been a gift. I have bought makeup as a gift she requested but she also buys it too. 

And I do not “sort of want it now.” (A purse.) That is what I DO NOT GET. I do not carry a purse. I carry a wrist wallet. If/when I have to carry a bunch of other crap around, I carry a tote bag. 

And I have never told her “whenever.” I do not currently have a set payment plan but it is not and has never been “whenever.” I never told her “whenever.” I laboriously tallied every expense, granted her the gift portion and then showed her exactly what she owed me, which she has begun to pay. My bad part was that I never made her pay a specific amount on a specific timetable. 

To my very literal kid, not setting up a payment plan or a date by which i needed the money would be the equivalent of “whenever.”

also, quill, I think you and I probably view money similarly. Id have to be about to live under a bridge before I’d borrow money from family and if I did, I wouldn’t be buying any nonessential item until I paid it back. That’s a function of our upbringing, I’d wager. My family had little so for themn to loan money would truly be a sacrifice. Your daughters raising, however, has likely been different. She doesn’t understand that urgent need to repay ASAP. 

 

[hjffkj]

If a $60 purse irritates you, it may be time to let her sink or swim.  Don't lend her money anymore and only pay for the things that as a parent you feel you need to, whatever your definition is for that. If she can't replace a vehicle then she simply doesn't have a vehicle and will need to learn how to get along without it. Plenty of young adults learn how to do this the hard way, when they think they need a car and realize they can't afford one. Yet somehow  their lives continue.  things may change or be inconvenient but they figure it out.

[katilac]

Just now, Quill said:

You are mistaken about the bolded. I do not have a timed, specific payment plan but she knows it is a priority. It is an inescapable part of the conversation since the car broke down, because she obviously does not have $8,600 available, which is what it would take to pay the debts and buy a car. Before the car broke, I was saying, “It feels uncomfortable to me because you are behind the 8 ball and you will have to save money to replace your car...hopefully it will last until you graduate, but it concerns me you don’t have a cushion...” 

What she hasn’t known about is all the other implications with our income. 

 

Fair enough, but now you know that generally alerting her that it is a priority doesn't result in the behavior that you want. iirc, you said in another post that you aren't willing to let the chips fall where they may as far as the car is concerned, her having a car is a priority. So, you're left with spelling out the behavior you want or will require. 

fwiw, I think that your comments in this quoted post leave her a lot of wiggle room. You feel uncomfortable, you feel concerned . . . for a lot of young adults, that is NOT going to translate into them feeling uncomfortable or concerned, lol. So don't be vague, don't talk about the future or what might happen. Simply spell out a payment plan, and possibly a spending plan. 

[Catwoman]

15 minutes ago, Quill said:

Yes, shawthorne, don’t worry; she’s not being snarky to you. Just me. 

 

I’m not being snarky to you. We just disagree. 

[Catwoman]

22 minutes ago, Quill said:

Many people like them because they are “in.” And many people buy such things though they cannot afford them. They buy things on credit and they think that means they “can afford” them. 

People do buy things because it fits their image of themselves and what they want to convey to others. Even frugality can be a game one plays because it fits their image of themselves. I do this. Seeing how long you can make a car last also fits a certain self-image. 

I notice when the person makes a “thing” of it. I have one relative who will falsly complain about her fancy things. She just did this about her new high end car. I said, “wow! That is beautiful!” And then she gave that ho-hum voice and said what she doesn’t like about it. “Oh, I miss my van...yeah, it’s nice, but it’s not enough room...” 

I just don’t get what idea it is in your head that I’m staring around at people’s things and deeming them terrible people. In most cases, I don’t even know what sort of purse people have. Unless something particular brings it to my attention, I don’t focus on it. 

I shared a story about a designer purse from like 22 years ago. At that time, yes, I did know what purses other secretaries had because these were things people conversed about. “Hi, Jane! Hey, look! I got this incredible deal on this FancySchmancy purse! Can you believe it was only $98?!” That was what we all talked about at the time. It’s not like my 50-year-old Bunko moms do this. 

 

If people are buying things they can’t afford, that’s foolish. It’s not about the things they’re buying; it’s about not having the money to pay for those things. I don’t think it’s wise to buy things you can’t afford. In your dd’s case, I think she believed she could afford the purse because she didn’t have a specific agreement with you about repaying the money she owes you, and it does seem like she really wanted the purse and only bought it because it was on such a great sale. I doubt she would have bought it if it was twice the price she paid. I guess what I’m saying is that she was trying to be a sensible, frugal shopper, yet still get the nice thing she wanted.

Your relative sounds obnoxious. The humble brag thing is annoying.

I absolutely believe you when you say you don’t go around all day judging everyone you see. Who has time for that? But you are doing it on this thread when you talk about why you believe people purchase expensive things. You ascribe motives to that behavior that may be true of some people, but aren’t true of all (or probably even most) people.

[fairfarmhand]

Btw, @Quill my dd doesn’t get it either. I have to continually remind my dh that she’s not an entitled jerk but her frame of reference is soooooo very different from ours, working our way out of utter poverty. My dd knows that shes lucky and blessed In her brain, but her emotions and behavior don’t always reflect that. 

For isntance, she knows her scholarships allow her freedom to live a particular way and make particular decisions. Some of it was hard work but lots of it was parents with enough money to homeschool and nature blessing her with a good brain. But she’ll whine about having to pay for some of her stuff because she knows lots of kids her age who don’t. 

Its so strange. My dd will whine about havIng to work so hard to get by and how she has no money, but then blow several hundred dollars on a plane ticket to visit friends. And I’m thinking—dh and I were eatIng ramen and barely squeaking by at age 20, not jetting off to the beach so stop whining. (She never owes us money. Itd be different if she did)

But I hold it in. Her perspective is different being raised in a different time and socio economic place. 

I bet eventually they’ll figure it out and I expect they’ll manage their money just fine. 

[Liz CA]

Wow, this thread has come around the bend since I last checked.

Quill, I am wondering if the marketing psychologists who are aiming at causing people to buy things under all kinds of circumstances may have been successful here? Your daughter is young and the lure of an expensive item significantly reduced has snagged more than one person into purchasing something they did not need / should have spent money on at that time.

Seems like one of the solutions could be a clearly defined plan to pay back money owed to you and you have to hold her to it. It may mean she needs to get / keep a job part-time while in college. It's okay, she will live and learn and years from now when she is a successful, young professional, nobody will care what kind of purse she buys.

[Scarlett]

Quill I do think there is a segment of society that is wealthy enough that their image never crosses their mind.  If you are in that part of wealthy living you really have no concept of what average income people will do to look or feel 'in'.  Young adults are particularly suspectible to it...even ones who have been raised with good values will often want the latest greatest even if they can't really afford it or it is a frivolous purchase.  Like my son and his phone.  I think it is a foolish purchase.....the difference is he doesn't owe me money.  

And that is the real issue here.  She owes you money and you see her buying mon essentials and you reached your tipping point.  Just put her on a payment plan and then don't worry about what she spends on what.  My son's friend just spent $600 on hair extensions....I know her financial situation and I know it was a very foolish purchase....but like I told someone, oh well if that is the most foolish thing she ever does I guess that is pretty good. 

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

I’m not being snarky to you. We just disagree. 

No we do NOT just disagree, Cat. You pulled into this thread leveling some quite harsh accusations and making numerous assumptions about me. I don’t jump into your threads and call you jealous, judgemental and envious. 

This would be we disagree:

Me: “I am annoyed. My daughter bought a designer purse and I think that is wasteful.”

You: “oh, I’m sorry you’re annoyed! FWIW, I have always owned designer purses; I don’t think they are wasteful, I think they represent good taste.” 

[2squared]

4 hours ago, wintermom said:

I think it's completely irrelevant what the item bought is. The simple fact is that she doesn't have money to spend on anything. If she bought the purse, or any thing, as a gift for Quill, I think Quill would have the same reaction. 

The girl is, or should be, in saving to pay off debt mode. I assume the car is essential for her future education, so that is a debt she'll be facing in the immediate future. All purchases of non-essentials are on hold for now. 

If she owed the IRS, she didn't have money for the trip to France either. That trip seems to be the big issue. She was already in debt for 2017 taxes (which would give me anxiety) and then she goes on a trip to France which cost more than expected (not uncommon). The time she spent in France could have/should have been time spent working to pay for her taxes and create a car replacement fund. If she hadn't gone to France, she would have had money for taxes, purse, and car, I'm guessing. 

Maybe the trip to France is the problem and not the purse?

[BarbecueMom]

37 minutes ago, Liz CA said:

Quill, I am wondering if the marketing psychologists who are aiming at causing people to buy things under all kinds of circumstances may have been successful here? Your daughter is young and the lure of an expensive item significantly reduced has snagged more than one person into purchasing something they did not need / should have spent money on at that time.

Living temporarily in a country and culture that places a much higher value on looking “put together” could have had an effect as well.  I wore a Muppets t-shirt, too-big jeans, flip flops, and wet hair in a ponytail to the store this morning.  While I looked completely average for a midwestern Aldi, I suspect I would have looked shockingly sloppy by French standards.  I’m a pretty frugal person with zero interest/aptitude in fashion, but I could see myself wanting to tweak something in my wardrobe if I started to feel like I was comparatively underdressed.

ETA:  Effect, not affect.  I need a nap.

[kbutton]

3 hours ago, Quill said:

It is because she does not “have” the money. She *technically* has it because -look! Here it is! So, for that @Pen is correct. Perhaps I should just comfiscate 100% of the money she owes me, nag my accountant and confiscate that money, and then let her figure out what to do about the car with only pocket change left until she earns more. 

1

I think you mentioned later in the thread that you want her to have a cushion. I think it would possible to leave her a small cushion and basically tell her that between now and x date (soon), she is going to pay you most of what she owes you OR give you essentially all of her money except $xxx so that she does have a cushion. Maybe she'll be able to sell things on Craigslist or find other work even if it's not for long or for the whole semester. Maybe she will decide to get an on campus job and sort out her class schedule (maybe taking classes online for cheap after she graduates to fulfill her minor since she has two majors). Just thinking out of the box--no idea what solutions might be available to her.

But I think it's totally reasonable that you demonstrate to her that her money is, indeed, spent. It's GONE for all practical purposes.

If you think you need to help replace the car, you have a fresh slate (if I understand correctly) to start new and decide things on your own terms. Or she can go without a car in podunkville, which I did for two years at college. Or, she can drive the less reliable car, and you can give her the choice between "helping" her SAVE (You can make monthly payments ahead of time to me so that you have a down payment when you need it...) or paying for AAA. Or some combination of ideas. 

2 hours ago, Pen said:

 I tend to think that it would be better to tell her that she needs to pay the owed debt to you in full this afternoon. If you have access to her account and can transfer the amount owed to your account that could be easier than other methods. But if she can write you a check that might have a better psychological feeling of paying a debt and being reimbursed. 

I think calling the accountant, finding out the tax amounts owing and mailing in the payments (or a little more to try to stop the interest) to Fed and state even if the complex Returns won’t be done till October makes sense. The tax payment money should come from her account. This afternoon or tomorrow  

The car is more complicated. If she is living at home and commuting to school and you don’t live where she has public transit available and school isn’t in biking distance and she can not carpool, and you cannot drive her or let her use a family car for the commute:  then it seems like a form of safe transportation is part of the cost of her education. But maybe not via a complicated purchase arrangement with pay back of debt to you needed. Maybe buy a car you want for when another family car wears out and for having another car for when your son gets to commuting age, and let your dd borrow it or some other family car at your convenience and with your permission for approved commuting. 

2

I agree with the above in spirit and think you could hash out details more to your liking if the specifics don't work for you.

2 hours ago, Quill said:

It is also because of other philosophical needs to be equitable between my two driving kids. 

In my family, I was the driving-age kid who got sort of screwed by my sister wrecking the car, which my parent’s had no ability to replace. I do not want a similar situation where one kid loses an important perk because of bad luck while another kid retains the perk because that bad luck didn’t happen there. 

 

It's not bad luck to be treated according to your own maturity. In this case, she's not missing a car because someone else did something stupid. She's avoiding responsibility (meant neutrally--whether she means to be avoiding or not--the outcome is that she is avoiding it).

Also, it's impossible to treat kids equally, but it is possible to be fair while being unequal. 

1 hour ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

I think maybe, due to irregular income, it makes more sense for daughter to pay a straight percentage of each paycheck to debt repayment. A hefty percentage.

 

I like the percentage idea too--quite possibly as savings toward the car, etc. after paying a more immediate "installment."

23 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

To my very literal kid, not setting up a payment plan or a date by which i needed the money would be the equivalent of “whenever.”

That’s a function of our upbringing, I’d wager. 

1

I think concrete is good. Regarding the second comment, I think it's largely personality. Parents consistently produce children who differ from each other in the BEST and WORST of circumstances. I don't think that your background isn't meaningful and relevant, however. I just think that some people are eternally optimistic that things are going to look up for them, work out, etc., and they seize opportunities that come along without even understanding the cause and effect. Truly. Metaphorically speaking, you made an amazing parking spot for your daughter, and she just sees an open parking spot. She has no idea you dug up a chunk of your yard by hand, poured the concrete, painted the lines, etc. Or if she does, she thinks that's just normal, or that it's how you do things 'cause your cool and talented. And she just nonchalantly pulled into it, dripped oil all over it, and parked half on-half off the concrete onto your flower bed. Some people, I am coming to learn, are like that. There is always another parking space just where they need it often enough that they think they are lucky or even hard-working.

 

[hjffkj]

10 minutes ago, 2squared said:

If she owed the IRS, she didn't have money for the trip to France either. That trip seems to be the big issue. She was already in debt for 2017 taxes (which would give me anxiety) and then she goes on a trip to France which cost more than expected (not uncommon). The time she spent in France could have/should have been time spent working to pay for her taxes and create a car replacement fund. If she hadn't gone to France, she would have had money for taxes, purse, and car, I'm guessing. 

Maybe the trip to France is the problem and not the purse?

 The problem is poor money management skills.  But that is not the point of the OP.  The OP should have already known her dd had poor money management skills if she was going to France while owing the IRS money.  But she lent her money to do so or to bail her out when it became too expensive, so she condoned that type of frivolous spending but not the spending of a $60 purse.  So in regards to the OP, Quill's frustrations seem purely based on what she personally deems as a valuable frivolous expense.  Paying for France was ok but a purse is not.  Being annoyed because someone values different things is not going to cause anything but stress.

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, hjffkj said:

 The problem is poor money management skills.  But that is not the point of the OP.  The OP should have already known her dd had poor money management skills if she was going to France while owing the IRS money.  But she lent her money to do so or to bail her out when it became too expensive, so she condoned that type of frivolous spending but not the spending of a $60 purse.  So in regards to the OP, Quill's frustrations seem purely based on what she personally deems as a valuable frivolous expense.  Paying for France was ok but a purse is not.  Being annoyed because someone values different things is not going to cause anything but stress.

Again, it is the tipping point. Maybe she could have afforded France if she passed on lattes and designer purses or other discretionary spending.  She can't afford all of it. 

[Scarlett]

24 minutes ago, Quill said:

No we do NOT just disagree, Cat. You pulled into this thread leveling some quite harsh accusations and making numerous assumptions about me. I don’t jump into your threads and call you jealous, judgemental and envious. 

This would be we disagree:

Me: “I am annoyed. My daughter bought a designer purse and I think that is wasteful.”

You: “oh, I’m sorry you’re annoyed! FWIW, I have always owned designer purses; I don’t think they are wasteful, I think they represent good taste.” 

It is like the milk thread all over again.  I remember Stella said a normal response would have said, 'oh man, it is annoying when someone drinks all the milk in one day.'  And maybe add in a tip or two about how to manage milk in a household with teen boys.  Instead I get page after page of snarky, judgmental, accusatory posts that assume facts not in evidence. 

 

SMH

[fairfarmhand]

7 minutes ago, kbutton said:

 

I think concrete is good. Regarding the second comment, I think it's largely personality. Parents consistently produce children who differ from each other in the BEST and WORST of circumstances. I don't think that your background isn't meaningful and relevant, however. I just think that some people are eternally optimistic that things are going to look up for them, work out, etc., and they seize opportunities that come along without even understanding the cause and effect. Truly. Metaphorically speaking, you made an amazing parking spot for your daughter, and she just sees an open parking spot. She has no idea you dug up a chunk of your yard by hand, poured the concrete, painted the lines, etc. Or if she does, she thinks that's just normal, or that it's how you do things 'cause your cool and talented. And she just nonchalantly pulled into it, dripped oil all over it, and parked half on-half off the concrete onto your flower bed. Some people, I am coming to learn, are like that. There is always another parking space just where they need it often enough that they think they are lucky or even hard-working.

 

This is my kid in a nutshell. It drives me bonkers. Sometimes I do wish that things just didn’t go so swimmingly for her because her assumptions that she made everything happen and “anyone” can do this, make those around her crazy.

[nixpix5]

Granted, I have not read many replies but I did read about the dental work text and it made me think this is less about your DD and more about you (said with heaping mounds of friendly affection). I find I get irritated when my boundaries are wishy washy. We are happier when we let our yes mean yes and no mean no so to speak. It may mean you need to set a new boundary. I might say " I find myself being a bit annoyed lately and this isn't your fault, it's mine. I have paid for some things that I now feel a bit bitter hearted about. I don't like that feeling. I am going to be more clear about what I am OK helping you with while letting you take more financial responsibility in your life" 

There is nothing wrong saying " I will pay 200 of the bill and you pay 100" and do it because you want to, not because you feel obligated. This transition is so hard for young people. They have blind spots to parent spending on them because it is all they have ever known ?

[katilac]

25 minutes ago, BarbecueMom said:

Living temporarily in a country and culture that places a much higher value on looking “put together” could have had an affect as well.  

1

 

Good point. 

7 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Again, it is the tipping point. Maybe she could have afforded France if she passed on lattes and designer purses or other discretionary spending.  She can't afford all of it. 

 

My dd is currently in France for 5 weeks of study abroad. I don't know how much Quill's dd spends on lattes and makeup, but study abroad is very expensive. If her discretionary spending can pay for it, she has a heck of a lot of discretionary income, and apparently I need to be a nanny in the summer, lol.  

[Scarlett]

Just now, katilac said:

 

Good point. 

 

My dd is currently in France for 5 weeks of study abroad. I don't know how much Quill's dd spends on lattes and makeup, but study abroad is very expensive. If her discretionary spending can pay for it, she has a heck of a lot of discretionary income, and apparently I need to be a nanny in the summer, lol.  

Well, I don't know.  Probably yes, the trip was more expensive than all the discretionary spending combined....but the point is she can't obviously afford extras if she couldn't even really afford the trip.   

[hjffkj]

8 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

It is like the milk thread all over again.  I remember Stella said a normal response would have said, 'oh man, it is annoying when someone drinks all the milk in one day.'  And maybe add in a tip or two about how to manage milk in a household with teen boys.  Instead I get page after page of snarky, judgmental, accusatory posts that assume facts not in evidence. 

 

SMH

 

the difference in this thread, is that someone specifically asked in the beginning what type of post this was.  were they seeking advise, JAWM, etc. And Op specifically said she was fine hearing if she was wrong to hear she was annoyed.

For your post, while i dont think anyone asked, you know fully well how people feel about your relationship with your stepson's eating habits, so you knew to expect the backlash you got.

[Paige]

Quill, I don't think whether the purse was wasteful or not is the point. I would be annoyed too, but it would be because of so much frustration and seeing a pattern. If I'm reading it correctly, it seems like you've been trying to teach her to manage her money, budget, and think through things, and you see her not getting the message. Maybe she thinks she's getting the message, but from your perspective, she's just not getting it and it's frustrating and scary, because you want her to learn now so she doesn't have to learn the hard way later.

It's not about money right now for us, but I think most parents have similar situations with kids, and when it's me, I get all kinds of sympathetic emotional itchiness. I don't think what you said to her was mean or too blunt- there's no reason she should be shielded from the real annoyance people feel when they've lent money and see that being repaid is low on the priority list. If it's not you today, it may be someone else in the future- and I think that imagining that future contributes to your annoyance.

Who knows- she may mature and handle her finances just fine after some minor issues as a young adult. She may not..it's the uncertainty that will worry us as parents.

 

[Scarlett]

Just now, hjffkj said:

 

the difference in this thread, is that someone specifically asked in the beginning what type of post this was.  were they seeking advise, JAWM, etc. And Op specifically said she was fine hearing if she was wrong to hear she was annoyed.

For your post, while i dont think anyone asked, you know fully well how people feel about your relationship with your stepson's eating habits, so you knew to expect the backlash you got.

No I really did not expect people to be so judgy of me.  And I am similarly shocked by how Quill is being treated.  

But the two topics that evoke such strong reactions are weight and money so I should learn I guess. 

[fairfarmhand]

Double post again. Good grief 

[fairfarmhand]

Also, I think @Quill would have reacted differently, even without a repayment plan if the dd had a budget that she was following and had a small category for “splurges” and she saved in that category for several months to be able to purchase the handbag. I imagine that the dd would have been thrilled to have her wait cut short due to finding the item marked down and quill would have been excited for her to have saved up and gotten a good deal too!

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, 2squared said:

If she owed the IRS, she didn't have money for the trip to France either. That trip seems to be the big issue. She was already in debt for 2017 taxes (which would give me anxiety) and then she goes on a trip to France which cost more than expected (not uncommon). The time she spent in France could have/should have been time spent working to pay for her taxes and create a car replacement fund. If she hadn't gone to France, she would have had money for taxes, purse, and car, I'm guessing. 

Maybe the trip to France is the problem and not the purse?

She owed the IRS, but everyone owes 2017 taxes in spring of 2018, unless they are not people who pay on taxes; i.e., they get a refund, have a neutral balance or are not taxpayers. 

She could not work in France; she was in school. She is a language major and this was a highly recommended option for her major. American students cannot earn while studying abroad in France. It is prohibitted. We agreed upon things she would need to pay to participate in this trip; i.e., plane fare, pleasure experiences beyond necessary for schoolwork, premium food. Those simply turned out to be more than expected. Mainly, I did not understand how crucial trams and trains are and that this would be a couple thousand dollars even without taking excessive trips. She also was required to be out of her host home for spring break, which I did not know ahead of time was a stipulation. 

If we had been living very close to the bone, obviously she would not have been able to do study abroad. But we weren’t. I didn’t anticipate the expenses exceeding my estimates so much, but fortunately we are not people who would be financially ruined by that surprise. Nevertheless, we are not at a place of, “oh, la-dee-dah, thousands of dollars more than expected. Tsk. Tsk.” 

Studying abroad truly is an investment. Given financial ability, I will assit my other kids in doing so if they want/it makes sense for their majors. But I also now know they should have around $5000 immediately available and no less than that. 

[katilac]

Quill, I think you also need to prepare yourself for the fact that your dd may never share your viewpoints on managing money or what is worth spending money on. You can model behavior, you can explicitly teach, and she still might wind up having a different viewpoint. 

You do have my sympathy in navigating this. Parenting young adults is hard. 

[Katy]

The French aesthetic is buy less quantity, buy higher quality classic, have it last for years, rather than buy trendy.  So it's possible that to whatever extent the trip influenced her "need" for a new purse, she will keep it for years rather than replacing it in 6-12 months.

[hippiemamato3]

Since it is bothering you a lot, I'd have her pay you back half of the total amount she owes you out of her savings RIGHT NOW, and set up a monthly payment plan for the remainder that is owed. Hopefully then you will feel better about things, and can let go the smaller financial choices she will make that you don't agree with.

[Condessa]

I don't think you should pay for the car.  It is a nice way to help out an adult child so that they won't have to pay interest, but if she doesn't regard her financial responsibilities to her parents with the same seriousness that she would other debts, it is not worth the strain on your relationship.  This sounds like a young lady who needs to gain financial experience with the freedom to make her own mistakes and feel the consequences thereof before she understands the gravity of debt.  A car is a good beginning--large enough to really feel it and learn from it for a few years before coming to the point of making financial decisions that will follow her for decades.  

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

 

the difference in this thread, is that someone specifically asked in the beginning what type of post this was.  were they seeking advise, JAWM, etc. And Op specifically said she was fine hearing if she was wrong to hear she was annoyed.

For your post, while i dont think anyone asked, you know fully well how people feel about your relationship with your stepson's eating habits, so you knew to expect the backlash you got.

But, hj, being fine with hearing different perspectives does not mean I want to be called names and have assumptions made about my character or have prior things I have shared here treated as evidence, i.e., “Ah-ha! YOU have a beautiful house with a freshly-painted door! How spendthrift you must be!” I even said I didn’t “want to be called a fun-sucker.” 

I don’t think not putting JAWM means, “Oh, please come assasinate my character!” There are posters in this thread who respectfully disagreed with my handling of the matter, among them, Pen. 

That milk thread was abusive towards Scarlett. 

This place has changed irrevocably. 

[LucyStoner]

2 hours ago, elegantlion said:

Fyi, when I worked for a temp agency, I was their employee and received a W2. Even though I had some freedom to accept or decline jobs, I  was still their employee. 

Yes, the IRS came down hard on temp agencies that were skirting the law decades ago.  It’s really just a matter of time before they come down on various agencies and businesses trying to take a cut of the gig economy.