I’m annoyed by what I view as an unnecessary purchase

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

But forget about the status thing for a minute. 

On one hand, you’re saying it’s fine for your dd to make some frivolous purchases here and there, even while she still owes you the money, but on the other hand, you seem to think you should be able to dictate what those purchases should be, or at least make harsh judgments about them afterward. All things considered, she’s not recklessly spending crazy amounts of money. She’s not spending the money on drugs and alcohol. What I’m saying is that if you’re ok with her spending some money on fun things, it shouldn’t matter to you what she chooses, because she’s buying things she likes, even if it’s not what you like. 

You are the one who seems fixated on the designer purse. You said yourself that you wouldn’t have minded if she had bought something practical like a new coat. But most women carry handbags, so I’m not sure why the purse doesn’t count as a practical purchase. The only reason you’re upset is because you are biased against purses and name brands for some reason, and that’s what doesn’t make sense. 

You didn’t say she shouldn’t spend any money at all before she pays you back. You said that spending some money is okay, but that she shouldn’t be spending it on a designer purse. That’s where I’m seeing the disconnect.

I don’t see why that’s a “disconnect.” A designer purse is unnecessary. Paying back a debt and having a functional car is necessary. Take care of the necessary thing first. 

I am upset because I want her to understand this and I would have thought she would because of the way we have lived for always and ever. Because of the many thousands of conversations to her and around her about money, choices, frugality and debt. When she was in France, she would buy the best fare train tickets consistently, even though they are always the most totally inconvenient one. She would buy a bagette and cheese at Monoprix to be a lunch. So a lot of things she did seemed like she understood it. But in recent couple months, she has mentioned or bought things that seemed out of left field and I think, “what the what?” She was house-sitting a while back and she bought a dozen eggs, which gets me to begin with because we have chickens and I have like twelve dozen eggs in my fridge. But beyond that, they were the most expensive eggs, which is merely a marketing ploy. “Cage free” doesn’t even mean the hens have humane conditions. It just means they aren’t in a cage. 

[Scarlett]

27 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

But forget about the status thing for a minute. 

On one hand, you’re saying it’s fine for your dd to make some frivolous purchases here and there, even while she still owes you the money, but on the other hand, you seem to think you should be able to dictate what those purchases should be, or at least make harsh judgments about them afterward. All things considered, she’s not recklessly spending crazy amounts of money. She’s not spending the money on drugs and alcohol. What I’m saying is that if you’re ok with her spending some money on fun things, it shouldn’t matter to you what she chooses, because she’s buying things she likes, even if it’s not what you like. 

You are the one who seems fixated on the designer purse. You said yourself that you wouldn’t have minded if she had bought something practical like a new coat. But most women carry handbags, so I’m not sure why the purse doesn’t count as a practical purchase. The only reason you’re upset is because you are biased against purses and name brands for some reason, and that’s what doesn’t make sense. 

You didn’t say she shouldn’t spend any money at all before she pays you back. You said that spending some money is okay, but that she shouldn’t be spending it on a designer purse. That’s where I’m seeing the disconnect.

Cat you are missing that this is a tipping point issue.  

[Arcadia]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

The thing about the makeup is that she thinks that’s “normal,” so it isn’t just the gifted palettes. Those are “normal” makeup to her now and it bothers me. It bothers me because it is unnecessary to buy a $45 selection of twelve eyeshadows from Ulta when the same goal can be accomplished for significantly less money. 

 

During my 7th-10th grade years, my school was just outside the shopping belt so most of us walk there to have more public buses available to take home. Most of us window shop at the same time. A ex-schoolmate didn’t have any fun money growing up and walking into somewhere like CVS/Target/Walgreens to buy Cover Girl/Maybelline/Revlon foundation and lipstick was scary to her. Somewhere like Macy’s scares her off and I do understand.

Take her shopping and explain how you would choose. I had to do that for my husband who only have fun money after working a few years after college graduation. He didn’t know how to shop because he didn’t get to shop. It was a need something try to borrow or try to do without in his childhood days. 

I have so many makeovers as a teen for my cousins weddings that I already knew which makeup and what colors are good for my skin type and skin tone. It is a definitely a privilege and saves me lots of money as an adult because I already made enough not so suitable purchases as a teen. 

My mom doesn’t like shopping much but she would make the effort to do a shopping and afternoon tea thing at least once a month. It helps us trash out why we spend the way we do when choosing what to buy. I am more sensitive to textures so my mom would not have realized that some materials would cause an itch because it doesn’t affect her. 

1 hour ago, Quill said:

The car, the damn car, makes my head hurt because in my perfect, imaginary world, that car would last until she graduated. In some ways, it would have been better had the car remained totally undriveable. Because then, replacing the car would be entirely necessary. 

 

Since your daughter is earning some money, I would be thinking about paying IRS in full, putting some money into the car emergency fund and paying some money back to you. To me, a loan from my parents is a low interest loan while emergency money would likely come out of a high interest personal loan if I didn’t have an emergency fund. At the time that my mortgage loan interest was 5%, personal loan interest was about 7%, so we kept some money for emergency car maintenance instead of downpaying more of our mortgage. I built up my emergency fund in college and that was useful when I started full time work and needed to pay first for work expenses and be reimbursed later.

So while I am all for paying down debt, I am also all for having some emergency savings while paying down debt. 

[hjffkj]

For me, it is all about the annoyance that she doesn't value spending money on the same things that you do.  You discuss your own financial concerns here and that family members have their head in the clouds when it comes to the financial issues you all are going through.  But then in another thread you are asking for help painting a door that is perfectly fine, in my opinion.  You value a fresh new look on a door while that is a completely frivolous thing when you are having financial issues yourself and owe money to the IRS/have other expenses that continue to trouble you.  Now that paint obviously didn't cost $60 but painting a door that doesn't need to be painted is a different form of status symbol, in my view. 

 

[DawnM]

33 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Quill I just read the whole thread and I am sorry you are stressing out.  I am also sorry for the judgment you are getting about your stress from people who are living a life of wealth/privilege or whatever term we want to use.  

When I saw the picture of your beautiful home I knew from my years here with you that you have that beautiful home not because you are big spenders or wealthy but because your Dh is a contractor who built it.  That happens though....we give snapshots and people don't remember everything we post or they over remember certain things and draw incorrect conclusions.

My ds18 just spent almost $1000 on a phone.  That just makes me a little ill.  But the fact is, our agreement is he lives here for free while he goes to college ---so he doesn't owe me money.  If he did owe me money I would have definitely voiced my displeasure with the decision to buy a $1000 phone.  

I am reminded of Dave Ramsey talking about how Sunday dinner with the family tastes a little better when you don't owe your family money.  But helping kds through college is not quite the same thing as loaning family money.  

 

 

Are you talking about people here on this thread?  How do you know what kind of wealth or privilege people here have?

I don't understand why you give grace to Quill and her home but not to anyone else.   You truly do not know a person's financial situation unless they share it, and even then, you can't be 100% sure unless you see their bank accounts and financial records.

However, people on this thread have shared their VALUES, which is an entirely different thing. 

[ktgrok]

I think what is throwing people is you were saying that you don’t want her to do without some at once or pleasure as well she pays you back. So if that is the case, why is the purse an issue? If it would be OK to spend 60 bucks on going to the movies a couple times and buying dinner why does it matter if she buys a purse instead? However, if you would also be equally upset if she was wasting money on movie tickets and such then I think that just didn’t come across clearly.

 

Also, I totally get that you’re upset that you don’t have the ability to spend $60 on a fun purchase right now and yet she owes you money. That would drive me up a wall. I really just think you guys need to have a more forthright discussion about it. Open communication and saying exactly what you mean in a nice way is always a good thing.

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

 I do not have the expectation that she should do nothing frivolous until it is all paid up and she is driving a car and that is all paid up, but I am feeling under intense financial pressure right now and it hit me at very much a bad moment, since I think a purse is totally unnecessary in the best of circumstances. 

She knows I am trying to keep costs down because this has been thematic for her entire life, even though she doesn’t know all of the specific worries that are stressing me out. 

 

I think you need to explicitly explain to her your actual expectations. They seem vague. 

I think you need to tell her that you are under particular financial stress and pressure now with regard to current situation.

This is very different than general lifetime frugality. 

1 hour ago, DawnM said:

@Qull, you need to talk to her.  Just sit her down and explain that you are struggling financially and you need to get the money paid back to you and you are frustrated that she purchased a purse instead of using that money to pay you back.  Tell her you know she has enough to pay the debt and you would suggest she do that before buying anything else. 

 

 

 Think we are trying to express the same things !

1 hour ago, Quill said:

I am not resentful about the stuff I give as a Christmas gift. Im going to give her Christmas gifts, so if this is what she wants, fine. 

The thing about the makeup is that she thinks that’s “normal,” so it isn’t just the gifted palettes. Those are “normal” makeup to her now and it bothers me. It bothers me because it is unnecessary to buy a $45 selection of twelve eyeshadows from Ulta when the same goal can be accomplished for significantly less money. 

 

It could be helpful to work out a budget with her for as long as she is financially dependent on you.

Include what amount of money she can spend each month however she wants if you are willing to let her do that. 

If there are items that you do not allow during her financial dependency spell that out. Probably no illegal substances are allowed. Designer items seem not to be allowed. I don’t understand what makeup is allowed. 

Maybe restrict lattes bought out to one per week. 

I don’t know, but make it clear. 

Don’t expect her to read your mind. Don’t demand that she have your same values and hierarchy of desires. 

1 hour ago, Quill said:

I will be talking to her today whenever I see her, which probably won’t be until noon. It will naturally happen because the purse is hanging over our heads and it is an obvious opener directly into talking about expectations. 

I don’t think you have it quite right, though...it’s not that I am anxious for her to pay me back so I can have that money. It’s that I want to see her understanding how small choices affect the whole. I don’t think this has occurred to her yet, though I feel like I have said these things my entire life. I buy milk at Costco or Aldi because those are the cheapest places and my family goes theough a lot of milk. So she has heard this SO many times! And many other thousands of small examples just like it. But I don’t think she thinks like that yet and I want her to. 

 

She is she. You are you. 

This has no reason to be internalized or shared by her. No more than if you have told her a million times what your favorite color is, but she may have a different favorite color. 

You cannot, reasonably, control her thoughts. 

You can, so long as she is still your dependent, demand certain behavior with regard to finances. 

You can tell her directly that you *wish* she shared your feelings about designer goods, makeup, lattes bought out, but she may not. Perhaps she may wish you shared her feelings about them. 

Comparing to a color choice probably doesn’t get at the level of importance here  Maybe it is more like a religion  You can express that you wish a child shared your religious beliefs. You could require church attendance as a condition of continuing financial support  But you can not demand -rationally- that the child hold the same beliefs you do in their own interior life  

However, you *can* make it about the money.

You can ask that she limit what you consider frivolous items to ______ per week. 

You can ask that she pay you back for the trip now. 

You can figure out exactly what your expectations for behavior are and express that. 

You can express your own feelings. 

[Selkie]

15 hours ago, Quill said:

Well, everybody, the cat is out of the bag and she does know how I feel now. She was thrown by my dental care comment and so I just explained it more. She said it sounded like I was raining on her parade and I said some things reflective of what I just said here - that I am finding it hard to be happy for her about the purse because I don’t feel she is in a position to buy fancy purses and I feel resentful because I could not do such things at her age. I think it will all work out and we have a good relationship in general and I won’t be saying another word about the purse from this day forward. But I don’t like conflict and stuff like this is hard, as I said. She lives with such privaledge but she doesn’t really see it because it is just “normal”to her for our economic class and the people we are around the most. 

I absolutely agree that you and your dd need to hammer out a payment plan so that everyone is clear on the expectations.

Re. the bolded above, I would stay away from saying or even hinting at that. It's not fair to lay a guilt trip on a kid over something that happened in your past. Don't give your kids a comfier upbringing and then resent them for it. I've seen parents do this and it always leads to a strained relationship and the kids pulling away as soon as they are able.

  

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

I think what is throwing people is you were saying that you don’t want her to do without some at once or pleasure as well she pays you back. So if that is the case, why is the purse an issue? If it would be OK to spend 60 bucks on going to the movies a couple times and buying dinner why does it matter if she buys a purse instead? However, if you would also be equally upset if she was wasting money on movie tickets and such then I think that just didn’t come across clearly.

 

Also, I totally get that you’re upset that you don’t have the ability to spend $60 on a fun purchase right now and yet she owes you money. That would drive me up a wall. I really just think you guys need to have a more forthright discussion about it. Open communication and saying exactly what you mean in a nice way is always a good thing.

No, no, no. It’s not, “I am upset that I can’t buy a $60 (whatever thing).”  I have $60. It is not about recouping the money she owes me. Though that will be handy. Because - teeth. 

It is because she does not “have” the money. She *technically* has it because -look! Here it is! So, for that @Pen is correct. Perhaps I should just comfiscate 100% of the money she owes me, nag my accountant and confiscate that money, and then let her figure out what to do about the car with only pocket change left until she earns more. 

FTR, I would be equally irritated if she spent $60 on, say, concert tickets. 

Also, @Tibbie Dunbar is right; I’m sure you have heard of a straw that broke the camel’s back. She has floated the idea of getting such a purse before, but I have said I think it is unnecessary and not worthwhile. She bought a new leather wristlet last month. I agreed with this purchase and I am sure in a part of my head, I thought this was satisfying the wish for such a purse - that she had decided on a cheaper but nice-looking wristlet instead. But now she got the purse too. So the camel came crashing down. 

[Scarlett]

18 minutes ago, DawnM said:

 

Are you talking about people here on this thread?  How do you know what kind of wealth or privilege people here have?

I don't understand why you give grace to Quill and her home but not to anyone else.   You truly do not know a person's financial situation unless they share it, and even then, you can't be 100% sure unless you see their bank accounts and financial records.

However, people on this thread have shared their VALUES, which is an entirely different thing. 

Because it is her thread and she is here venting and upset.  

You really think that people who have been on this board for 12 years have no idea of who has the wealth and who doesn't?

[hippiemamato3]

10 hours ago, Quill said:

She is dependant and still living under our care. It’s not the lady down the street. I’m pretty sure most parents strive to have their children share their values. 

Yes, but I think in order to have a successful relationship with our adult children, it's also necessary to leave space to realize that they will have their own values and desires and dreams. And they will make their own mistakes. If you don't make space for her to be her own person, the relationship will not be able to grow and change as she does.

[DawnM]

Just now, Scarlett said:

Because it is her thread and she is here venting and upset.  

You really think that people who have been on this board for 12 years have no idea of who has the wealth and who doesn't?

 

Yes, I am REALLY saying that we don't know who has wealth OR privilege (man I hate that word!).  Your "grace" to Quill is causing you to be harsh and critical to everyone else.  That is not ok.

 

[Pen]

28 minutes ago, Quill said:

I don’t see why that’s a “disconnect.” A designer purse is unnecessary. Paying back a debt and having a functional car is necessary. Take care of the necessary thing first. 

 

Paying back the debt has not been made necessary in her life. If you want her to understand that it is necessary to be done first have her pay it back in full this afternoon. 

I understand now that you don’t want to have her not having a functioning car in your living circumstances. But if you want her to prioritize that next, make up an explicit savings plan toward it 

[Scarlett]

Just now, DawnM said:

 

Yes, I am REALLY saying that we don't know who has wealth OR privilege (man I hate that word!).  Your "grace" to Quill is causing you to be harsh and critical to everyone else.  That is not ok.

 

Oh please.  How was I harsh? And to everyone? 

I said I was sorry people were being so judgmental of her.  

[DawnM]

Just now, Scarlett said:

Oh please.  How was I harsh? And to everyone? 

I said I was sorry people were being so judgmental of her.  

 

Oh please?????  Really?

You said there were so many who were wealthy and privileged who were in judgement.   A fact you DO NOT KNOW BUT ARE MAKING UP.  

And I don't see that there are many "in judgement" other than presenting other opinions.

 

[Scarlett]

15 minutes ago, DawnM said:

 

Oh please?????  Really?

You said there were so many who were wealthy and privileged who were in judgement.   A fact you DO NOT KNOW BUT ARE MAKING UP.  

And I don't see that there are many "in judgement" other than presenting other opinions.

 

I said I was sorry for the judgment she is getting from those who are living a life of wealth.  I didn't say 'many'.  And you don't know what I know and what I don't know.  

[DawnM]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

I said I was sorry for the judgment she is getting from those who are living a life of wealth.  I didn't say 'many'.  And you don't know what I know and what I don't know.  

 

See, you are proving my point.  You don't know who is wealthy or "of privilege" but you have decided to be judge and jury.   

And no, you cannot know everyone's financial situation.  

[Pen]

34 minutes ago, Quill said:

It is because she does not “have” the money. She *technically* has it because -look! Here it is! So, for that @Pen is correct. Perhaps I should just comfiscate 100% of the money she owes me, nag my accountant and confiscate that money, and then let her figure out what to do about the car with only pocket change left until she earns more. 

 

 

I don’t know if confiscation is emotionally the right approach. I tend to think that it would be better to tell her that she needs to pay the owed debt to you in full this afternoon. If you have access to her account and can transfer the amount owed to your account that could be easier than other methods. But if she can write you a check that might have a better psychological feeling of paying a debt and being reimbursed. 

I think calling the accountant, finding out the tax amounts owing and mailing in the payments (or a little more to try to stop the interest) to Fed and state even if the complex Returns won’t be done till October makes sense. The tax payment money should come from her account. This afternoon or tomorrow  

The car is more complicated. If she is living at home and commuting to school and you don’t live where she has public transit available and school isn’t in biking distance and she can not carpool, and you cannot drive her or let her use a family car for the commute:  then it seems like a form of safe transportation is part of the cost of her education. But maybe not via a complicated purchase arrangement with pay back of debt to you needed. Maybe buy a car you want for when another family car wears out and for having another car for when your son gets to commuting age, and let your dd borrow it or some other family car at your convenience and with your permission for approved commuting. 

[LucyStoner]

Totally tangential accountant remark.  Nannies are not independent contractors.  Nannies are domestic employees.  Her employer should be paying her as an employee.  She shouldn't be responsible for self-employment taxes.  The IRS is clear on this point.  It is incumbent on the parents to pay her properly.  They are committing a form of tax evasion.  She should ask them to pay her on the books.  When I worked as a nanny in college, I usually found that the people willing to pay me legally were better employers TBH.  

https://www.care.com/homepay/whats-wrong-with-hiring-my-nanny-as-an-independent-contractor-1212110431

[hippiemamato3]

4 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

 

I have great respect for my adult children's values, desires, and dreams, and I enjoy seeing them pursue those things – within the context of financial responsibility.

I didn't say you have to enjoy them, but at some point (and Quill isn't there yet for obvious reasons) it's not any of your business anyway. 

[Scarlett]

7 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

Totally tangential accountant remark.  Nannies are not independent contractors.  Nannies are domestic employees.  Her employer should be paying her as an employee.  She shouldn't be responsible for self-employment taxes.  The IRS is clear on this point.  It is incumbent on the parents to pay her properly.  They are committing a form of tax evasion.  She should ask them to pay her on the books.  When I worked as a nanny in college, I usually found that the people willing to pay me legally were better employers TBH.  

https://www.care.com/homepay/whats-wrong-with-hiring-my-nanny-as-an-independent-contractor-1212110431

Interesting!

[Guest]

1 minute ago, LucyStoner said:

Totally tangential accountant remark.  Nannies are not independent contractors.  Nannies are domestic employees.  Her employer should be paying her as an employee.  She shouldn't be responsible for self-employment taxes.  The IRS is clear on this point.  It is incumbent on the parents to pay her properly.  They are committing a form of tax evasion.  She should ask them to pay her on the books.  When I worked as a nanny in college, I usually found that the people willing to pay me legally were better employers TBH.  

https://www.care.com/homepay/whats-wrong-with-hiring-my-nanny-as-an-independent-contractor-1212110431

She is a subcontractor nanny under a professional referral and orchestrator. The “gig” economy structure. Parents pay the referring company XXX dollars; referring company pays the subs who nanny at the gigs the referring company arranges and keeps a gig commission. It is like Care.com but it is not a big national organization like that. 

The referring company pays her as a subcontracor and files 1099. As far as I know, this is within the tax law; it is the same method I use when DH pays Joe Blow to come throw away two dumpster’s worth of eviction garbage from a former tenant’s house. If we pay Joe Blow directly more than $600/yr., we file 1099 and the sub must report his income through 1099. 

[Scarlett]

31 minutes ago, DawnM said:

 

See, you are proving my point.  You don't know who is wealthy or "of privilege" but you have decided to be judge and jury.   

And no, you cannot know everyone's financial situation.  

If they aren't wealthy then they aren't who I was referring to.  LOL.  And my big 'judgment ' of them is that they are judging Quill. 

And I never claimed to know EVERYONE's financial situation.  

 

[fairfarmhand]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

No, no, no. It’s not, “I am upset that I can’t buy a $60 (whatever thing).”  I have $60. It is not about recouping the money she owes me. Though that will be handy. Because - teeth. 

It is because she does not “have” the money. She *technically* has it because -look! Here it is! So, for that @Pen is correct. Perhaps I should just comfiscate 100% of the money she owes me, nag my accountant and confiscate that money, and then let her figure out what to do about the car with only pocket change left until she earns more. 

FTR, I would be equally irritated if she spent $60 on, say, concert tickets. 

Also, @Tibbie Dunbar is right; I’m sure you have heard of a straw that broke the camel’s back. She has floated the idea of getting such a purse before, but I have said I think it is unnecessary and not worthwhile. She bought a new leather wristlet last month. I agreed with this purchase and I am sure in a part of my head, I thought this was satisfying the wish for such a purse - that she had decided on a cheaper but nice-looking wristlet instead. But now she got the purse too. So the camel came crashing down. 

She looks in her account and sees the money. So to her, she DOES have the money because mom's attitude is "pay me back sometime." She forgets that there are taxes and cars coming up because she knows she's got a safety net. She needs to start paying you back. She definitely needs to pay the IRS. 

She doesn't see what you see in the future. My conversation would be this:

"I'm stressed about money. We're not broke, but I've lived long enough to understand that a fine line can exist between being okay one year and not okay in the next year. I know that's not your fault and you're not responsible for it. At the same time, your dad and I pay for a lot of your stuff because you're our kid. We love you and we want to pay for them. But we want you to also understand the value of a dollar and be able to separate needs and wants. There will come a time when you have to live on your income and it may require you to buy drugstore makeup and walmart purses. I want you to be able to do that, holding your head up high, and enjoying life all at the same time. There may come a time when your dad and I CAN'T loan you money to buy a car. I want you to have your head on financially enough that you can pay it off and not miss payments or save up for it. There may come a time when your dad and I CAN'T pay your dental bills, allow you to live here rent free, and loan money for stuff. I need the assurance that you can function as an adult. I'm not so upset about the purse necessarily, but I am frustrated at the timing of it. If you didn't owe us money for France, it might not have bothered me. If you didn't have a car need coming up, it might not have bothered me. But to have both of them hanging out there and you prioritized that over these financial NEEDS bothers me. Because it's not showing financially mature thinking. I can't go buy a $60 purse right now because of money and what I'm seeing as our financial future. It kinda frustrates me that you'll do that while I'm paying for lots of your stuff, you owe us money, you owe the IRS money, and you'll need a car soon.  "

 

[fairfarmhand]

double post

[LucyStoner]

1 minute ago, Quill said:

She is a subcontractor nanny under a professional referral and orchestrator. The “gig” economy structure. Parents pay the referring company XXX dollars; referring company pays the subs who nanny at the gigs the referring company arranges and keeps a gig commission. It is like Care.com but it is not a big national organization like that. 

The referring company pays her as a subcontracor and files 1099. As far as I know, this is within the tax law; it is the same method I use when DH pays Joe Blow to come throw away two dumpster’s worth of eviction garbage from a former tenant’s house. If we pay Joe Blow directly more than $600/yr., we file 1099 and the sub must report his income through 1099. 

 I am cleaning this up at two organizations right now.   A lot of people who are paid as contractors are really employees.  

Nanny agencies can't circumvent this law legally.   Care.com has payment software to allow for the payment of nanny taxes in situations where it is owed, when one family pays one nanny more than $2100 in a year.  

If she's working as a domestic employee, she doesn't become a contractor merely because she's being paid by an agency.  

Your dump service is a service- you call him and I am betting he tells you when he can come.  Sometimes you might want him on Tuesday, but he says maybe Wednesday.  If he can't do it, you wait or you call another service.  That's a contractor.  A nanny is not, and CAN NOT be, a contractor.  

[Guest]

@fairfarmhand yes, that is a perfect understanding of my feelings about it. 

[hippiemamato3]

15 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

 

It is absolutely my business if they owe me money!

And that was why I said "at some point" because most adult children don't go through life owing their parents money all the time. Once they don't, it's no longer your business.

[MysteryJen]

I have read the whole thread, and I am sorry, Quill, for the money troubles. I understand the anxiety about money and I know it just eats away at a person. Clearly your tipping point was the purse. My dh’s tipping point is lunch at Panera. The reactions are not completely irrational, but they are an overreaction. 

You have to explain your tipping point to your dd. And not do it with judgement that her purchase (on sale and considered) reflects badly on her character. Because I don’t think that is fair.

Set up and agreed payment plan for the France trip. Or if she wishes she can pay you back right now. 

The taxes are tricky, because she is still entwined with you financially. This is a team playing moment for both of you.

The root canal is bad luck- I would just pay slowly over time- she can give you some money for payments- an agreed percentage.

Does she have to have a car at school? Think hard about that. All my kids did not and will not have a car on campus. Sometimes annoying, but always cheaper.

and the last thing. People are different about what they value. It is not wrong to love beautiful things. It is not wrong to spend money on them. Granted, you should pay bills first, but you said she had been paying you back for the trip. 

I love beautiful things. I have art on my walls instead of nice furniture. I bought a dog instead of a plane ticket home for Christmas when I was 23. I know my mother didn’t approve. She let me know in a similar passive aggressive voicemail. We are different and that is okay. It has taken over 20 years for my mother to stop judging my choices. So I don’t share, I don’t borrow, and the relationship is fragile. This young adult stage is so hard, but judgment on choices (obviously not talking about dangerous ones) does more damage than anything you can do.

[Guest]

@LucyStoner but she isn’t paid by the parents as an employee of the parents. She is paid by the agency as an employee of the agency. Isn’t this the same thing as working under any referral company, like a temp secretarial agency? 

OTOH, maybe this is why I can’t get my dang accountant on the phone with me. 

 

ETA: Also, a dump service, yes, but a person who just comes by for two days and throws away stuff with direct payment to Mr. Jon Armstrong or whatever is 1099 if more than $600. That is my understanding. 

[EKS]

I have not read all of the replies.

I completely get why you're annoyed.  I would be too.

If I were her parent, I would structure my financial entanglements with her so that it is very clear what I am paying for and what I am not.  I would not under any circumstances lend her money.  If there was some high ticket item that she desperately needed, I would just give it to her rather than expect repayment.

[fairfarmhand]

By the way, you may need to at least mention to her that she may need to seek an auto loan if your financial position doesn’t improve. It’s okay for her figure that out on her own. Small credit unions do these. 

[LucyStoner]

32 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

 

Is this similar to what sunk Landry Academy?

 

I guess so.  

It is common for small private schools and non-profits to run afoul of this law and try to pay teachers and summer camp assistants as contractors rather than employees.  Teachers can be contractors if working on a project, curriculum development or other professional projects where they control how they work.  Teachers who are told to be at place X at time Y and stay for 3 hours and fill out this, that and the other form for the school?  They aren't contractors, they are employees.  

An easy way to think of it is this.   

A staff accountant has an employer.  I have clients.  

Similarly, a part-time, intermittent babysitter has clients.  A nanny earning at least $2100 from the same family or agency has an employer. 

Those paid as contractors should generally be paid either a project or flat rate or a much larger rate per hour.  A nanny who is paid $18 per hour as an employee and better off than one being paid $20 as a contractor, in terms of taxes and state benefits.  I bill 2-3 times what I might earn per hour working as an accountant at a non-profit. If I charged the same or even just a little bit more, I would be worse off because of all the taxes and risks I take being self-employed.  

[Guest]

Quote

Does she have to have a car at school? Think hard about that. All my kids did not and will not have a car on campus. Sometimes annoying, but always cheaper.

She does, but not solely because the campus is rural and there’s no public transport, though that is true. It is also because of other philosophical needs to be equitable between my two driving kids. 

In my family, I was the driving-age kid who got sort of screwed by my sister wrecking the car, which my parent’s had no ability to replace. I do not want a similar situation where one kid loses an important perk because of bad luck while another kid retains the perk because that bad luck didn’t happen there. 

[LucyStoner]

8 minutes ago, Quill said:

@LucyStoner but she isn’t paid by the parents as an employee of the parents. She is paid by the agency as an employee of the agency. Isn’t this the same thing as working under any referral company, like a temp secretarial agency? 

OTOH, maybe this is why I can’t get my dang accountant on the phone with me. 

 

 

If she is the agency's employee, she is NOT an independent contractor.  

Temp agencies generally know well enough to pay their workers as employees unless they meet the definition of an independent contractor.  I would bet good money that your daughter's employer is in violation of the law.  Many small and/or newer businesses are.  

[DawnM]

29 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

If they aren't wealthy then they aren't who I was referring to.  LOL.  And my big 'judgment ' of them is that they are judging Quill. 

And I never claimed to know EVERYONE's financial situation.  

 

 

So now you have me wondering, who WERE you talking to?  Ultimately then, it comes down to your own private definition (or your perceptions).  Unless we happen to have a whole bunch of rich Kennedy's with 3rd and 4th homes in Hyannis Port that I don't know about, I don't presume anyone on here is wealthy, much less "privileged".....

So, your definition is probably different than mine.

[lavender's green]

I'm the child in a cross-class family. There is hope!

I think the best thing my parents did was to be as clear as possible about who had what financial responsibilities, and when their support would end. It wasn't perfect, because they didn't fully appreciate the changes that had taken place in higher education, but we made it work.

I wish I had been taught more about budgeting and handling day-to-day costs. They didn't want to see me struggle while they were supporting me, so then I struggled more once their support officially ended. I also wish they had been less ambiguous about their financial situation. There were times that I had way too much anxiety on their behalf for all they were doing to support me. They could have said, "Hey, times are tough with the economy the way it is. Could you please handle X, Y, and Z next year." or "Obviously the economy is terrible, but we're doing okay and want you to focus on school." Instead they were ambiguous. Buying expensive, unnecessary stuff but then acting like it was a hardship. It was very confusing, but I'm glad they had at least some guidelines about what was expected of me. Who knows, maybe my parents weren't even on the same page, which is why I experienced mixed signals. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, DawnM said:

 

So now you have me wondering, who WERE you talking to?  Ultimately then, it comes down to your own private definition (or your perceptions).  Unless we happen to have a whole bunch of rich Kennedy's with 3rd and 4th homes in Hyannis Port that I don't know about, I don't presume anyone on here is wealthy, much less "privileged".....

So, your definition is probably different than mine.

Well, Catwoman said she thought I was talking about spending thousands of dollars on a purse. If she really means that, then I do surmise only a wealthy person could infer that possibility. We are not poor, but I have no knowledge of anyone I know personally, much less a 21yo, buying any fashion item that actually costs thousands of dollars. I’m sure maybe somebody has such things; probably someone I know or have met at some time. But I am not aware of any people in my “circle” who buy things that expensive. 

[hjffkj]

23 minutes ago, Quill said:

@fairfarmhand yes, that is a perfect understanding of my feelings about it. 

 

But why is her purse purchase a less financially sound decision than your paint purchase, when you both have financial obligations that you are currently struggling with.

I really only use the paint as an example because it is the only one I personally know about. But really any completely unnecessary purchase you make is the same as her purse purchase, since you yourself are worrying about your finances right now.

How is it not just a difference in values when it comes to choosing which frivolous thing to spend money on. Maybe your dd thinks you wasted good money on a door that didn't need paint.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

 

If she is the agency's employee, she is NOT an independent contractor.  

Temp agencies generally know well enough to pay their workers as employees unless they meet the definition of an independent contractor.  I would bet good money that your daughter's employer is in violation of the law.  Many small and/or newer businesses are.  

Well. That’s gonna suck. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, hjffkj said:

 

But why is her purse purchase a less financially sound decision than your paint purchase, when you both have financial obligations that you are currently struggling with.

I really only use the paint as an example because it is the only one I personally know about. But really any completely unnecessary purchase you make is the same as her purse purchase, since you yourself are worrying about your finances right now.

How is it not just a difference in values when it comes to choosing which frivolous thing to spend money on. Maybe your dd thinks you wasted good money on a door that didn't need paint.

My daughter has no authority over whether I paint my door or not. That is the difference. I did not ask her for money to buy groceries and then paint the door. She is dependent upon me and therefore, how she spends money is of a concern to me. I am not dependent upon her. What I buy she may agree or disagree with but it is moot because she doesn’t fund anything I do. 

My anxieties about money are more about the future and mostly are about this next year. I hope I will not bitterly regret taking one more year to homeschool DS13 rather than go earn money or go earn my degree. A lot can change in a year. 

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, Quill said:

Well, Catwoman said she thought I was talking about spending thousands of dollars on a purse. If she really means that, then I do surmise only a wealthy person could infer that possibility. We are not poor, but I have no knowledge of anyone I know personally, much less a 21yo, buying any fashion item that actually costs thousands of dollars. I’m sure maybe somebody has such things; probably someone I know or have met at some time. But I am not aware of any people in my “circle” who buy things that expensive. 

 

It’s interesting that you posted that, because I was just thinking about how perceptions of the same things can be so different. My family and social circle are obviously very different from yours, but I can assure you that they’re still nice people and they buy things because they like them, not because they’re trying to impress you.

When you see someone driving a certain kind of car and carrying a certain kind of handbag and shopping in high end designer boutiques, it seems like you think they are showing off and that all they care about is status. Have you ever considered that maybe you and she simply have different definitions of normal because you were brought up in different environments? Unless someone is actively bragging about the things she has, maybe you should consider that she shops in certain stores and buys certain brands because that’s what she has always done, not because she’s trying to act like she’s better than you are or because she’s trying to impress you. It’s just normal to her. And even if she didn’t always have money, once she reached a certain level of success, the people in her social circle all shopped in nice stores, so she started doing it, too, and she liked what she saw there, so that became her new normal. 

 

[Scarlett]

22 minutes ago, DawnM said:

 

So now you have me wondering, who WERE you talking to?  Ultimately then, it comes down to your own private definition (or your perceptions).  Unless we happen to have a whole bunch of rich Kennedy's with 3rd and 4th homes in Hyannis Port that I don't know about, I don't presume anyone on here is wealthy, much less "privileged".....

So, your definition is probably different than mine.

Probably so.  Which as Tibbie said up thread is pretty typical of us. LOL

[madteaparty]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

So, what do you think is the purpose of having a lable? Is there no such thing as a well-made thing that is not a designer brand? The fact that Consumer Reports always has their “best value” category siggest that there is. Costco’s Kirkland batteries are more durable than Duracell. But they cost less and have plain packaging. 

People often buy brands that are the literal same exact thing as some non-brand thing but they want the brand thing so they can display that it’s a Yeti thermos or whatever. 

Read what @soror just said about the purse from GW. 

It’s not about the label. I turn my purse around so the label is not visible. It’s a well made item that carried my bar exam books (heavy) and then doubled as a diaper bag and on and on. 

[Laurie]

3 minutes ago, Quill said:

My daughter has no authority over whether I paint my door or not. That is the difference. I did not ask her for money to buy groceries and then paint the door. She is dependent upon me and therefore, how she spends money is of a concern to me. I am not dependent upon her. What I buy she may agree or disagree with but it is moot because she doesn’t fund anything I do. 

 

Exactly.

My mom grew up during the Depression and was very cautious with money her whole life.  In her family, there was a frequently used expression that fits this purse situation:  Having a champagne appetite on a beer budget.  

I don't blame you for being upset and concerned.   The purse is probably like a gateway "drug" that will lead to more expensive tastes  (and more and more debt).

[DawnM]

4 minutes ago, Laurie said:

Exactly.

My mom grew up during the Depression and was very cautious with money her whole life.  In her family, there was a frequently used expression that fits this purse situation:  Having a champagne appetite on a beer budget.  

I don't blame you for being upset and concerned.   The purse is probably like a gateway "drug" that will lead to more expensive tastes  (and more and more debt).

 

A gateway drug?  

No.  It is a mistake on the daughter's part, a frivolous purchase, something that upset her mother, but it was $60 purse, not a $60,000 car.  

I spent on things I shouldn't have when I was younger.  It is a growing process.  She is young.  She can still learn.  She is not "hooked on spending and will do anything for her next fix" now.

 

[HS Mom in NC]

I think maybe, due to irregular income, it makes more sense for daughter to pay a straight percentage of each paycheck to debt repayment. A hefty percentage.

I know what you're going through with the concerns about the future, Quill. Remember that most people replying here are not business owners and may be completely oblivious to how hard small business owners are being slammed in taxes (some paying 40%) and healthcare cost increases (many times over on the last 6 or 7 years) which are eating into their ability to save and invest for retirement. Add in the sharp increases in other COL factors and it's a recipe for serious stress. 

We've told our kids and their SOs about it with this move.  We actually showed them how dramatically those things have risen for us and they were around for the presentations my husband put together for choosing where to move, because they were all invited to come with us and we'd help them with moving expenses here or where they found work. They're adults.  They can handle "how the economy is affecting us personally" conversations. 

[Katy]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

I don’t see why that’s a “disconnect.” A designer purse is unnecessary. Paying back a debt and having a functional car is necessary. Take care of the necessary thing first. 

I am upset because I want her to understand this and I would have thought she would because of the way we have lived for always and ever. Because of the many thousands of conversations to her and around her about money, choices, frugality and debt. When she was in France, she would buy the best fare train tickets consistently, even though they are always the most totally inconvenient one. She would buy a bagette and cheese at Monoprix to be a lunch. So a lot of things she did seemed like she understood it. But in recent couple months, she has mentioned or bought things that seemed out of left field and I think, “what the what?” She was house-sitting a while back and she bought a dozen eggs, which gets me to begin with because we have chickens and I have like twelve dozen eggs in my fridge. But beyond that, they were the most expensive eggs, which is merely a marketing ploy. “Cage free” doesn’t even mean the hens have humane conditions. It just means they aren’t in a cage. 

 

So what you're saying here is that upthread you were lying to yourself when you said you were fine with her spending money on some frivolous things, because you're not okay with it.  At all.  You see that she has near-future needs that aren't taken care of, and despite whatever triggers you have in the past with  name brands, you're not okay with frivolous purchases.  Which might be reasonable.  What's not reasonable is to tell her you're okay with frivolous purchases and then getting angry when she makes them.  You lied to her, even if you didn't mean to.  Your real thought is, "Don't buy anything frivolous until debt is repaid," which is perfectly reasonable.  But expecting her to read your mind when you didn't even know what your mind was on the topic is not.

 

2 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

I think what is throwing people is you were saying that you don’t want her to do without some at once or pleasure as well she pays you back. So if that is the case, why is the purse an issue? If it would be OK to spend 60 bucks on going to the movies a couple times and buying dinner why does it matter if she buys a purse instead? However, if you would also be equally upset if she was wasting money on movie tickets and such then I think that just didn’t come across clearly.

 

Also, I totally get that you’re upset that you don’t have the ability to spend $60 on a fun purchase right now and yet she owes you money. That would drive me up a wall. I really just think you guys need to have a more forthright discussion about it. Open communication and saying exactly what you mean in a nice way is always a good thing.

 

This.  It shouldn't matter how she spends her frivolous money if you think it's reasonable for her to have it.

2 hours ago, Quill said:

No, no, no. It’s not, “I am upset that I can’t buy a $60 (whatever thing).”  I have $60. It is not about recouping the money she owes me. Though that will be handy. Because - teeth. 

It is because she does not “have” the money. She *technically* has it because -look! Here it is! So, for that @Pen is correct. Perhaps I should just comfiscate 100% of the money she owes me, nag my accountant and confiscate that money, and then let her figure out what to do about the car with only pocket change left until she earns more. 

FTR, I would be equally irritated if she spent $60 on, say, concert tickets. 

Also, @Tibbie Dunbar is right; I’m sure you have heard of a straw that broke the camel’s back. She has floated the idea of getting such a purse before, but I have said I think it is unnecessary and not worthwhile. She bought a new leather wristlet last month. I agreed with this purchase and I am sure in a part of my head, I thought this was satisfying the wish for such a purse - that she had decided on a cheaper but nice-looking wristlet instead. But now she got the purse too. So the camel came crashing down. 

 

So stop lying to yourself and to her that you're okay with frivolous purchases.  Because you are clearly not okay with it.  Which is fine.

[Arcadia]

7 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

But why is her purse purchase a less financially sound decision than your paint purchase, when you both have financial obligations that you are currently struggling with.

 

I am seeing the problem as lack of a prepayment plan which makes things snowball emotionally. When paying debt money and fun money aren’t clearly defined in her daughter’s budget, things do get emotionally charged because of human nature. 

For example, my husband flew to his hometown last week for a conference so his parents and siblings gave him a long shopping list for gifts. I let him know how much I would need for our kids homeschool expenses next year (2018/19) that I would probably have to pay up by next month. So we were clear about the maximum he could spend on gifts without affecting homeschool funds. That way I don’t get upset over his spending unless he overshoots the maximum amount in which case we could access what gifts to return to store.

To be fair to OP, I was paying for my dental works in college because my college dental services are very affordable. My parents would have helped if I couldn’t afford important urgent dental work.  OP is paying for her daughter’s dental work. That would already be more than enough to pay for many cans of paint and other “frivolous” items. 

Put in another way. My husband and I are carrying around $40k of mortgage debt as the only debt. We are saving for college as my kids are a year apart so would be double whammy most years for college expenses. Spending $30 on frappes per month would probably seems frivolous because I don’t even have a purse or a nicely painted door to show for what I spent. However in my household budget, $30 for fun money which I happened to spend on frappes doesn’t look like a huge amount or frivolous. So that’s how I see OP’s expense on door paint. 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

It’s interesting that you posted that, because I was just thinking about how perceptions of the same things can be so different. My family and social circle are obviously very different from yours, but I can assure you that they’re still nice people and they buy things because they like them, not because they’re trying to impress you.

When you see someone driving a certain kind of car and carrying a certain kind of handbag and shopping in high end designer boutiques, it seems like you think they are showing off and that all they care about is status. Have you ever considered that maybe you and she simply have different definitions of normal because you were brought up in different environments? Unless someone is actively bragging about the things she has, maybe you should consider that she shops in certain stores and buys certain brands because that’s what she has always done, not because she’s trying to act like she’s better than you are or because she’s trying to impress you. It’s just normal to her. And even if she didn’t always have money, once she reached a certain level of success, the people in her social circle all shopped in nice stores, so she started doing it, too, and she liked what she saw there, so that became her new normal. 

 

Cat, I do not care what other people do. I am not looking around at people going, “GASP! She has a Gobbledygook Purse! She must be a snobby rich lady!” Or, “She drives an Acura, when she could simply drive a Chevy! She must be condescending towards all us regular people in an old van!” I could not care less what regular people around me do, assuming they are just going about their business. (I have a beef with outright bragging that is clearly meant to try to boost the person’s self image; I have encountered it.) 

But it seems like you refuse to acknowledge that certain goods are a status symbol. That is their actual purpose and is the actual purpose of their price point. As I pointed out, some people dress their babies in tiny Ugg boots or North face snowsuits or whatever thing. They may be cute; it is likely they are, but they are not needed for durability or performance. The parents just want people to go, “oMG! Look at that baby with those tiny little Uggs!” The point is to induce admiration. 

Again - do I personally care if someone wants to put tiny brand clothes on her baby? I do not personally care as an outside observer. But if, say, my grandkid lived with me and I was being financial and social support for my kid and grandkid? I would be mad about tiny Ugg boots and I would say so. 

PS. I do think many  young adults get caught in a bad financial trap precisely because of what you said here: they just think that’s what everybody does. It is normal because it is common, but just because it’s common does not mean it is wise.