I’m annoyed by what I view as an unnecessary purchase

[Catwoman]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

It sounds like Quill is OK with her daughter spending on *some* "wants," just not the ones that she considers both frivolous and expensive.

I think it's natural to have different views about which wants are worth spending on and which aren't.  It's possible dd considers some of mom's purchases frivolous, not that it's any of her business to say so.  ?

On the positive side, this issue will pass soon, as long as Quill doesn't lend dd a bunch more $$ and dd pays off the debt in a reasonable amount of time.

 

That’s so true! It can be hard to see our kids spend money on things we think are foolish, but as you said, I’m sure our kids think some of the stuff we buy is pretty foolish, too! 

[Guest]

God its late. 

Random things: She has already paid $1000 for the France trip. So, its not like ive been just hoping along that she will eventually pay me somethign. Otoh, neither have i spelled out that she must pay a specific amount at a specific time. I was not being a pest because she hasnt worked a ton and she had to pass up two gigs while her car was literally sitting at a cemetery parking lot, broken. S i perceived myself as being fracious not to nag her about it. So it feels like she took advantage of my grace.

i think it was @Pen who said it but yes, I live in a big, beautiful house because dh built it and also built our first house, so a lot of equity in house that we could not otherwise have ever afforded. Moreover, while i dont live in a “neighborhood” really, this is generally an affluent area and a HCOL region. Its a weird mix in that the hs community is filled with frugal folks but the larger community is filled with conspicuous consumption. 

Incidental aside: two older kids are very different in money attitudes. Ds is much more similar to me. 

Also, im outta likes so...

[CAJinBE]

I'm sorry Quill. I get what you are going through. Raising older teens has been the hardest part of parenting. We are also noticing a difference in expectations from what we had growing up. My kids don't have opportunities for jobs or even driving until after 18 here, but they have had life experiences that wouldn't have been in my wildest dreams growing up. My dh and I started with basically nothing and little support from family. Only now at 54 have I decided I could have a designer tote bag and agonized over it for months before deciding on the Longchamp Le Pliage for 85 euros because it was a good value. I could have bought something for 400 but I couldn't see the advantage and the foldable, travel friendly nature of the Pliage tote won out to my practical side. But while I was researching I watched a ton of youtube videos about handbags. I didn't even realize there were people out there doing all these product reviews. Yes, the word investment is thrown around liberally. Your dd did get a good value assuming it is in a neutral color and practical size, etc. I would suggest she gets leather products to protect it and it will last. I got a Coach purse when I got my first engineering job and it lasted years. 

My kids don't want expensive things, but it is more there boredom with experiences that I think are amazing. I find myself saying things like get off your phone and look out the window, that is a lavender field and we are in PROVENCE! We can do these things because we live over here. When they said, uh huh and went back to their phones, I said something like next year I'm driving you through Nebraska from one end to the other with no air conditioning and no phones. I like Nebraska by the way, don't want to offend anyone. 

I think when they are living on their own as actual adults, they will truly appreciate things and free time more. Your daughter sounds amazing to me. I enjoyed hearing about your trip to France last year.

[chocolate-chip chooky]

 

Quill, I'm so sorry to hear that you're dealing with a hurricane in your head. That sounds awfully difficult and must make situations such as this one with your daughter all the harder to navigate. 

I wish you all the best re your hurricane.

[BakersDozen]

6 hours ago, I talk to the trees said:

Okay, this is totally a case of pot and kettle here, because I am worthless when it comes to any kind of confrontation. But if you need for her to pay for more of her own expenses, you need to just say, “Hey, you need to pay more of your own expenses.” Don’t bottle it up, or go all passive-aggressive on her, because that will just hurt both of you, and it's not worth the rise in blood pressure for either of you!

We do this with our young adult kids. They know full well what they are expected to pay as it is in writing. Medical/dental costs are included in that (I wouldn't pay for a root canal after a certain age, for example) along with food, non-food items, etc. I have watched my first 3 children make financial choices that leave me feeling just like Quill. My consolation is that my children do not owe us money and they know we are not footing the bill for a lot of stuff for them. We actually have a chart showing their increasing financial responsibilities so each year they know what is coming. If they are able to cover those things and still splurge on fun stuff then great, they are managing their money well. If they choose to splurge but not budget for expenses then they can set up a payment plan with whomever they owe money to (doctor, dentist, hospital...but not us).

As someone who didn't have much growing up and even less as a young adult, who had no one to pay things for me and who had to budget every penny, it makes me nuts to see young people spending like my own kids do. I wish they would choose differently but I can't force them to do so. All I can do is not allow them to be in debt to us and to do what I can to help them see the reality of expenses in the real world.

[BakersDozen]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

God its late. 

Random things: She has already paid $1000 for the France trip. So, its not like ive been just hoping along that she will eventually pay me somethign. Otoh, neither have i spelled out that she must pay a specific amount at a specific time. I was not being a pest because she hasnt worked a ton and she had to pass up two gigs while her car was literally sitting at a cemetery parking lot, broken. S i perceived myself as being fracious not to nag her about it. So it feels like she took advantage of my grace.

i think it was @Pen who said it but yes, I live in a big, beautiful house because dh built it and also built our first house, so a lot of equity in house that we could not otherwise have ever afforded. Moreover, while i dont live in a “neighborhood” really, this is generally an affluent area and a HCOL region. Its a weird mix in that the hs community is filled with frugal folks but the larger community is filled with conspicuous consumption. 

Incidental aside: two older kids are very different in money attitudes. Ds is much more similar to me. 

Also, im outta likes so...

Bolded - exactly. Ugh, this gets to me the most. So much grace is shown to our kids...being taken advantage of (or feeling like we are) hurts.

[Arcadia]

8 hours ago, Quill said:

Stuff like this is hard for me to deal with because I was piss-poor at her age and was 100% in charge of all my expenses. I had to buy tires and dinner and bus fare. I’m sort of hoping she ends up regretting it. 

 

I have read most of this thread.

1) I grew up in what is probably upper middle class, taking a taxi to school when my parents overslept.  However I was 100% in charge of budgeting my expenses since 1st grade. My mom would give me a fixed rate for bus and meals, topping up money for taxis when there is a valid reason for it. My parents did give me fun money which I spent on nice stationery at Japanese bookstores.  It helped our parent child relationship a lot and it was nice to be in charge of my own spending money at an early age.

I would just make your daughter take over more ownership over her debt and expenses. Be upfront how much you can help out. For example my parents would help me with up to $500 for glasses every year while I was in college. 

My husband grew up with needs not being met and wants would get him a scolding. I am doing more of the budget teaching than him for our kids at this age because he didn’t have any money until college scholarships and even then he dare not spend a penny. 

2) Regarding branded stuff. My husband mostly shop at Nordstrom Rack, Macy’s and the premium outlet stores. The shortest return period we encounter is 30 days for handbags, shoes and clothes. I get him to return stuff that is not useful within the return period. My husband has been returning more and hoarding less. He was shocked when he returned more than $700 worth of “discounted goods” to Nordstrom Rack that he spent that much on gifts within 45 days.

My in-laws did not have branded stuff until their kids are in their late 30s and bought for them. My MIL felt looked down carrying a Coach satchel into a Longchamp store (not outlet); the salespeople ignored her. They only talk to her when she came back with a Longchamp bag and that was to try to get her to spend more money. So to my MIL, branded goods matters. 

I have wore Abercrombie & Fitch to many branded goods flagship stores and get treated very well when I ask for service. I grew up with my parents paying cash for Louis Vuitton bags so I guess my shopping demeanor is different from my husband. When he goes shopping, the sales people would show him heavily discounted items that may still be costly because that’s how he shop and that’s what’s important to his parents and siblings. 

My husband bought his parents a unisex looking “outdated” Ferragamo watch for $50 at Nordstrom Rack for 90% off MSRP. His parents only care that they can wear a Ferragamo watch with a high MSRP. We bought “odd colors” The North Face jackets for penny deals at Nordstrom Rack for his parents and his parents wore them because The North Face is a status symbol where they live. 

So your daughter might be thinking that she is owning a $300 branded bag at a lower cost of $60. Her “frivolous” purchases might just be to fit in with her social circles. For my in-laws and my husband’s siblings who is only looking at the brand, my husband just buy those that are marked down at 75% to 90% off MSRP regardless of how the item looks as gifts because his relatives don’t care. For my parents and my brother, he buys gifts by exact specifications like my brother requested for a black non-leather messenger laptop bag when asked what he wants. We bought my brother a $18 Jansport laptop messenger bag which fits my brother’s request perfectly. Jansport isn’t considered branded by my husband’s parents and siblings but my brother don’t care. 

My brother is a little “slow” in financial management so my parents took more baby steps with him. He handled his own expenses from 16 years old, much later than me but early enough to have some practice before adulthood. 

3) I was an engineer but had to do marketing conferences booth duty. I get a clothing allowance per event for having to dress up (compared to jeans and T-shirt for computer work). Maybe having a clothing allowance in your daughter’s budget would help her. For example makeup foundation cake that would last me a year cost around $80. If I want to buy something more expensive to use, I take that top up amount out of my fun money. Makeup costs don’t seems like much to my friends when they were college age until they tabulated the costs for all their makeup items including makeup remover, nail polish and nail polish remover. A lipstick here and a mascara there doesn’t seem that costly until it all adds up because it isn’t obvious when purchases are spread out.

4) My uncles and cousins are in the metalwork industry as family businesses. They are doing more of the paperwork and       most of the manufacturing tasks are automated. My grandparents couldn’t work past the 70s because the physical labor was too tiring while my uncles and aunts could work pass their 80s because of automation. I do understand about your husband’s work’s long term financial uncertainty and how stressful it could be. 

5) BBC article a few days ago might be worth your daughter reading 

Burberry burns bags, clothes and perfume worth millions https://www.bbc.com/news/business-44885983

“Burberry, the upmarket British fashion label, destroyed unsold clothes, accessories and perfume worth £28.6m last year to protect its brand.

It takes the total value of goods it has destroyed over the past five years to more than £90m.

Fashion firms including Burberry destroy unwanted items to prevent them being stolen or sold cheaply.”

[Guest]

Ok, now that I have slept a whopping three hours (habitual early riser; doesn’t matter what time I go to sleep), I want to mention something I did not say last night. When I began my post, I intentionally withheld both the dollar amount of MSRP and the amount she paid and the actual brand of item, which I have still withheld; I did this explicitly because I knew that some people here would be fine with that brand and those prices, while others would feel as I do about them. I know from my many years here that whenever we talk specific dollars, some will feel that brands and prices are perfectly acceptable while others do not. I probably should have remained resolute and never given the actual MSRP or price she paid and never mentioned other brands, though I still never did mention the particular brand. I should have just allowed some of you to think I must be talking about a Prada bag or whatever kind of purse costs thousands of dollars; I would not know because it is totally outside of my experience. 

It should be not a secret at all to anyone who has known me for several years here, certainly to @Catwoman by whom I felt slandered and severely mischaracterized, that I am very consistently frugal. I have mentioned it in thousands of posts. I headed the low-spend threads for two years before surrendering them because I knew there would be things coming up that were not as representative of frugality as previously and I didn’t want to be one of those people who talk frugal but buy posh. I have talked about our 2002 van that we finally surrendered at over 260,000 miles; I have mentioned my 21-year-old living room furniture that I have been dithering on replacing for literally more than five years. When I started buying Stitch Fix clothing, I repeatedly spoke about how difficult it is for me to spend something like $50 for a blouse when my closet is full of used clothing and things I have worn for a dozen years. I spoke about how large portions of my visit to France was “paid for” through earned and squirreled up credit card reward points; I could not have dreamed of going myself if I had not had in the neighborhood of 175,000 pts, which covered my flights to and from on Air France and Delta, as well as my Paris hotel stays. So really - that I don’t care one jot about certain kinds of purses should surprise no one who knows me here. 

[Guest]

Quote

 grew up in what is probably upper middle class, taking a taxi to school when my parents overslept.  However I was 100% in charge of budgeting my expenses since 1st grade. My mom would give me a fixed rate for bus and meals, topping up money for taxis when there is a valid reason for it. My parents did give me fun money which I spent on nice stationery at Japanese bookstores.  It helped our parent child relationship a lot and it was nice to be in charge of my own spending money at an early age.

Arcadia, I liked your whole post, so this is not to pick on you, but this part here is itself an upper class priviledge that not everyone can do. I remember the first time I ever heard of doing this. It was Larry Burkett, the Crown Financial Ministries guy from whom Dave Ramsey basically copied “his” concept of envelopes and all cash. But I remember thinking then, as I do now, that this does not work for someone whose goal is to get those expenses down as bare as possible. So, for example, in earlier years, I infrequently bought my kids clothes at a store - any new retail store. So I never had, say, three hundred dollars to be this season’s new clothing budget for a kid. It was just: we’ll see how lucky we can get. Some years, almost every item was used. Others, we were less lucky and we needed to fill in the gaps with new retail clothes. You can’t create a hard budget number unless you have up to a certain amount; it doesn’t work if the goal is just to do it as inexpensively as possible.

A quick example: when we were shopping for her junior prom dress. In my head I had a figure I wanted to keep it under if we bought a new retail dress. But I didn’t hand her $—— of money and tell her this is her budget, because I knew there was a used gown boutique where she might find something for much less. Which, in fact, happened. I would have bought a new retail dress had a discounted option not presented itself or if all the options were ugly or ill-fitting. But since she found a beautiful dress she loved at the used boutique, so much the better. 

[madteaparty]

10 hours ago, Quill said:

I am upset because it is a designer purse. If she spent $60 on...something that I thought had lasting importance - maybe like a winter coat or something, if she didn’t have a coat at all - I would not be upset. I am entirely upset because of what a designer purse represents, which, to me, is nothing but image and trying to show off. 

About your first paragraph, there was never any expectation on either of our part that she would pay for her dental care. And I still don’t expect her to pay for that. I just thought she would realize that it’s a big deal. It’s a thousand dollars and I had her arrange a payment plan because it is a lot of dough. It just seems to me like she would realize that but it doesn’t feel like she does. And the car - she knows she will have to pay for the purchase of a replacement car; we have always said so. BUT she is not in a position to buy one herself, so that will be payments to us as well. This is where I feel like yelling, “DON’T you get it?! You need to focus on paying for the stuff that CANNOT WAIT!” 

I work with people that wear $2000+ purses and  I’ve never felt tempted but, the one expensive purse I bought (I guess it is “designer” but not a super trendy one) lasted me 11 years. I just replaced it with same brand. So maybe she needs congratulating on her frugality ?

[Wheres Toto]

We ended up having to step back and let oldest dd handle her own expenses.  She's in grad school, lives with my mother (rent free), pays her own car expenses, student loans, most food, medical bills (but has insurance through us and her dad), and fun expenses.  I'm on her bank account because it's the same account that she had in high school as a student account and I had to be on it then.  So, when we look at our account online, we see hers too.  It was driving us nuts to see how much money she spends on eating out, or other, in our opinion, "unnecessary" things, when she owed us money even though we had never pushed for repayment.   We finally decided to set up more formal payments that she needed to make to us each month to cover any money we had loaned her for car repairs or anything else, her portion of her cell phone bill including any data overages, etc.   I won't say it's working great but we feel less resentment because she's paying what she owes us, and she is making sure her student loans and other bills are getting paid.  She's not saving much but she is talking about wanting to move out and knows she'll have to spend less to get that to work.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

There are terms like "last straw" and "bellwether" that explain what happens to us humans when we are taken surprise by our own emotions and behavior, and surprise others because they didn't have the whole picture. In one sense, it is definitely about a $60 purse, for a woman who has never owned a $60 purse in her life. In another sense, it is obviously not about a purse. 

I am not sorry for this young lady. She has been loved, nurtured, and provided for, so she is surely resilient enough to handle some new, frank discussions about money. I mean, re-watch old episodes of The Waltons or something: young adults can pivot when the family circumstances change. Especially when the family sticks together, and the future is bright. Quill is going to see her dd through college. She's going to help make sure there's a car. She is still setting her dd up for success.

Quill, I hope you see that you have people here who understand. Would we have all flipped over the purse, no, I'd have balked at the trip to France, but that's a detail. Navigating finances and expectations is a thing for former (or current or future) poor folks, as our kids head into adulthood. We are going to make some mistakes. That's when we capitalize on a lifetime of supporting and nurturing our kids, and work through it - with the goal of strengthening our family relationships. Which is what you started the thread to talk about, so I hope you feel you got some helpful advice.

[Guest]

@Tibbie Dunbar Thanks! 

[fairfarmhand]

10 hours ago, elegantlion said:

We're defining the word differently. An investment article of clothing is one that will last through many seasons, go with different styles, is well constructed and designed. It's more of a wardrobe definition than an economic one. No, I have not allowed advertisers to change the definition. Words can mean different things in different worlds.  I'm not looking to increase it's value, but I am considering whether a purchase will be one that lasts. I consider it an investment (in the fashion sense) to buy one well-designed useful purse than stumble through 3-4 cheap purses that don't quite fit my purse criteria. I've done that before and actually spent way more than combined that I did on the more expensive item. 

I understand this point and I live this way sometimes but, I didn’t do it when I owed people (particularly family) money. It’s okay to wait till your independence to make those investments and the joy of owning it is all the sweeter when you’ve waited a few years on it. It’s always a good thing to learn “really good sales” come around decently often. And “it doesn’t matter how good of a sale it is, if you don’t have the money you don’t have it.”

[ktgrok]

13 hours ago, teachermom2834 said:

I’m with you, Quill. Yes, my young adults make their own money (and honestly they work really really hard and save a lot and pay for most of their school) but they are still in our wallet. We still do help them out on things and that is hard to do when it feels like they are frivolous about money. I would really struggle with what you describe.

I don’t know what the answer is. I want to help my young adults, and I feel good about doing so, but it is as a support when they are working hard and spending wisely. It doesn’t feel good unless they are doing their part. I also was piss poor at that age and married and completely on my own at 21. And we were POOR. 

I’ve been pretty lucky not to have this scenario. Mine tend to run big purchases by me and also work so hard they feel the weight of their purchases. I do think I would talk to her, though. Basically just couch it somehow in a relationship lesson. In my house I would say something to the effect of “I understand your excitement and your desire for the purse, but as a mom it leaves me feeling ______. “ I think I would explain how it made me feel to see her spend that money while she owes me money and explain how that would likely make others feel and that it can hurt a relationship. I wouldn’t guilt her more than that and I wouldn’t force her to return it. I wouldn’t bring it up again. I’d move on and hope that she makes a different choice next time. 

But I don’t think your feelings are wrong at all. 

 

I agree with gently explaining how you feel. Because the alternative is you will quietly be resentful and then probably passive aggressive about it (like the text message) and also likely bring it up later when you are arguing about something else, which isn't cool. 

In other words, use this as an example of how adults can have a disagreement and use their words to explain their feelings in an assertive but not aggressive/passive aggressive way. 

Also, does she have a payment plan to pay you back, and is sticking to it (in which case you probably need to back off) or was it just a thing where she will pay you back "when she can" in which case, you can tell her that it doesn't feel right for her to spend extra money on a  purse when she still owes you money - that debt payment comes before fun spending. If you don't have a set payment plan, maybe it is time to make one, to avoid further hard feelings? 

And yes, you can absolutely say, "I'm concerned how you are going to replace your car,  know money is tight for you with you still owing me money as well, and yet I see you spending money on expensive purses. I'm confused."

 

[Katy]

I guess my judgment of this type of thing would depend greatly on whether this $300ish purse marked down to $60 is trendy or classic, and how she takes care of her possessions in general. If it's trendy and can only be used for a year without going out of style, or if it has giant gaudy show-off logos on it, or if it's poor quality I'd be annoyed too.  If its a classic item that will last indefinitely, a buy-it-for-life sort of item, I might be supportive of the idea of a purchase like that, even if I did comment that the timing was poor.

When I was 19 I did use birthday money to buy a Coach purse. For one thing I was angry my dad forgot my birthday again and then sent that guilt money instead of an actual present at all. It was a brown leather bag with a barely visible embossed logo marked down so much that even with tax it was less than $100.  With a few colorful cheap bags mixed in maybe 2-3 times, I carried that purse for 16 years.  The only reason I stopped is that DH bought me a brown leather crossbody bag that is more practical with kids because it leaves my hands free.  Along the years I occasionally saw some cute $20 clearance bags I loved the color of, but always regretted buying because that color would start to flake off in less than 6 weeks with gentle use, and be trashed in less than 3 months. When evaluated by cost per wear, that Coach bag WAS a really good investment.  The only other one I've had that long was a $15 DKNY nylon crossbody bag from TJ Maxx that's only big enough to carry a wallet, cellphone, lipstick, sunglasses, and keys. I still use it to carry my stuff at the gym instead of changing in the locker room, and sometimes on vacation when I don't want a heavy leather purse. It was also a great choice.  I've come to the conclusion that marked down $300 bags that aren't trendy are often worth it, and cheap trendy stuff never is, no matter how good of a deal they are.

The year after that my dad forgot my birthday again.  I bought myself diamond earrings.  I still wear them.  I have also found buying expensive makeup costs less over time than drugstore stuff (except mascara).  Similar with quality shoes and coats.  Expensive sunglasses are NOT worth it for me, I scratch, break and lose them too easily.  DH has had the same pair of clearance Ray-Bans for years, so they work great for him.

It is perhaps a little tacky to show off or brag about any purchase while she owes you money.  But at the same time, sending her the message that you don't appreciate the timing would likely make her less open with you about any decision you wouldn't approve of in the future, so I'd probably bite my tongue about it unless it was an ongoing pattern. I agree that a payment schedule would likely make you relax about this, unless you're of the mind that it's wrong to buy anything optional while she owes family money.  Which would be a different discussion entirely.

[ktgrok]

I do think you need to evaluate if it is the amount of the actual purchase...had she spent $60 on anything else, would you have felt the same? 

 

But mostly, it sounds like there is a lack of direct communication, and some habits of passive aggressive dealing with stuff, that maybe should be addressed. 

[2squared]

7 hours ago, sassenach said:

That's kind of the point of her posting. In her world (and mine), the paying back process would have already commenced. I think she's pretty clear on the fact that her daughter isn't like, "screw you, mom! I'm buying this bag!" It's more like, why doesn't my daughter think of all of these debts and expenses before making an unnecessary purchase? When you have limited resources, you must rank your priorities. This is something that those who live or have lived without do on almost an instinctual level. I don't remember ever being taught to do it and I bet Quill doesn't either. But our kids who have grown up in better circumstances are completely lacking this instinct and it's jarring, to be honest.

Why would the kids be lacking the ability to prioritize their spending? This honestly confuses me. My kids are growing up in a household with a higher income, and managing money is definitely a priority lesson for them. My kids aren't fighting homelessness or hunger, so their ranking looks different than someone in poverty. But still, they are ranking and making choices with their money.

i assume that if the OP's daughter had a firm payback schedule, she would meet those expectations and she might still buy the purse. The two items aren't mutually exclusive. Yes, spending the money on the purse means she doesn't have that money anymore, but maybe she would have found a way to do both. In fact, I'm assuming she does plan to do both. Dd's payment plan is at a slower pace than OP prefers, but they haven't aligned on a specific timeline. 

[DawnM]

Quill, does she have some sort of payment plan to pay you back?  So much per month?  If so, and if she is meeting those obligations, I don't really see what the problem. is if she has a treat or two.

If you don't have a monthly amount she is giving you, what is the plan to pay you back?  Is it to give you 100% of her earnings until it is paid back?

I think if you have some sort of plan, and allow her a few splurges, you will both feel better.

[Guest]

@Katy, the design of the purse is classic enough; were I planning to buy a purse, I would be looking for one like it. BUT! I’m sure you know this about designer fashion:  the looks that are “in” one season are still “out” the next. To people who care about such things, that purse will look like “2018 clearance” by next year. She probably won’t care, but I have observed many times over that young women who buy designer purses replace them. I will be pleasantly surprised if she continues to use it for years to come; I don’t think it is highly likely she will.

In the same vein, expensive makeup is the same way. She asks for some of these things for Christmas, and I will give her some for that occassion, but a lot of that makeup barely or never is used and I am sure you know what I mean. She will get an eyeshadow pallet for Christmas and it has 12 or whatever little tubs of color in it, but some combination of three will become her favorite look. So 75% of the pallet is never used. And certain “looks” come in and go out again, leaving some makeup relics to last year’s look and never used again. 

[HomeAgain]

1 minute ago, Quill said:

@Katy, the design of the purse is classic enough; were I planning to buy a purse, I would be looking for one like it. BUT! I’m sure you know this about designer fashion:  the looks that are “in” one season are still “out” the next. To people who care about such things, that purse will look like “2018 clearance” by next year. She probably won’t care, but I have observed many times over that young women who buy designer purses replace them. I will be pleasantly surprised if she continues to use it for years to come; I don’t think it is highly likely she will.

In the same vein, expensive makeup is the same way. She asks for some of these things for Christmas, and I will give her some for that occassion, but a lot of that makeup barely or never is used and I am sure you know what I mean. She will get an eyeshadow pallet for Christmas and it has 12 or whatever little tubs of color in it, but some combination of three will become her favorite look. So 75% of the pallet is never used. And certain “looks” come in and go out again, leaving some makeup relics to last year’s look and never used again. 

On the same note, women who buy things marked down severely don't often care about the immediate fad.  I'm not going to lie, I own two Dooney & Bourke purses & a YSL wallet.  The first I've had for 10 years. It was not the most frugal purchase but one I felt justified in after replacing a long line of thrift store/clearance purchases that wore out. It's classic, well made, and is a color that comes in and out of style but always looks fantastic.  The reason I have the second D&B is because dh surprised me with a white clutch he found clearanced when we had more formal events to go to.  The YSL wallet was a great thrift store find that lasted, which is what sent me on the hunt for a quality purse and it took me months of waffling before deciding to go for it.  None of them shout anything.  The name isn't plastered all over.  It's quiet quality that will last me for at least another 10 years.

Make-up is an experimental item, and one with a short shelf life.  I think the recommendation in 6 months because of bacteria transfer.  I think you have to separate in your mind what you are willing to give freely as a gift with your money from what expectations you have of another person's lifestyle.  If it pains you to give an expensive, expiring item, don't do it.  You won't feel resentful that some of it doesn't get used.

[Guest]

To @DawnM and @Ktgrok and @2squared or anyone else who is asking this, it is in the thread but presumably you don’t have time to read it all right now; she did not have a set, specific payback plan, though she has paid a third of what she owes so far for the trip. I did not devise a payment plan because I was trying to be gracious and consistent. She can only make a real dent in expenses during the summer and then not again until winter break. She might be able to have a campus job but it is doubtful because she holds a double major and a minor and is an excellent student who definitely plans to finish on time. 

So no, I did not say she had to pay this specific amount every month because I already know she doesn’t have the stability of income for that to make sense. The amount of money she has in her account at this moment is almost exactly equal to money she owes me and owes the IRS from 2017,which she had an extension to pay due to being out of the country. I do not have the expectation that she should do nothing frivolous until it is all paid up and she is driving a car and that is all paid up, but I am feeling under intense financial pressure right now and it hit me at very much a bad moment, since I think a purse is totally unnecessary in the best of circumstances. 

She knows I am trying to keep costs down because this has been thematic for her entire life, even though she doesn’t know all of the specific worries that are stressing me out. 

[DawnM]

@Qull, you need to talk to her.  Just sit her down and explain that you are struggling financially and you need to get the money paid back to you and you are frustrated that she purchased a purse instead of using that money to pay you back.  Tell her you know she has enough to pay the debt and you would suggest she do that before buying anything else. 

 

[Guest]

Quote

 is an experimental item, and one with a short shelf life.  I think the recommendation in 6 months because of bacteria transfer.  I think you have to separate in your mind what you are willing to give freely as a gift with your money from what expectations you have of another person's lifestyle.  If it pains you to give an expensive, expiring item, don't do it.  You won't feel resentful that some of it doesn't get used.

I am not resentful about the stuff I give as a Christmas gift. Im going to give her Christmas gifts, so if this is what she wants, fine. 

The thing about the makeup is that she thinks that’s “normal,” so it isn’t just the gifted palettes. Those are “normal” makeup to her now and it bothers me. It bothers me because it is unnecessary to buy a $45 selection of twelve eyeshadows from Ulta when the same goal can be accomplished for significantly less money. 

[Pen]

13 minutes ago, DawnM said:

Quill, does she have some sort of payment plan to pay you back?  So much per month?  If so, and if she is meeting those obligations, I don't really see what the problem. is if she has a treat or two.

If you don't have a monthly amount she is giving you, what is the plan to pay you back?  Is it to give you 100% of her earnings until it is paid back?

I think if you have some sort of plan, and allow her a few splurges, you will both feel better.

 

Replying to above post and also @Quill 

I think there are at least 2 different repayment and financial plans, neither written down, and neither even clearly articulated orally.

And they conflict with each other.

1) Quill’s dd’s likely idea:

Pay back the money for France trip bit by bit, no set amount per payment or deadline, personal wants that arise during the repayment period come first    No payment needs to be made during school year or at any time of limited work.

After France trip is paid back, if car has been replaced, then perhaps deal with repayment for car similar as she is now doing with France trip  debt.

Very likely this feels to dd like she is being very mature, responsible and careful  .  Probably some of her peers have everything paid for in full by parents and so that she is stepping up to the plate by paying part of her own way probably seems to her like a high level of financial responsibility  .

She also very likely feels that her purse purchase was responsible and sensible.  She thought it through carefully and got a good deal. And she is keeping up with her repayment obligations in a stellar manner as she understands them in her own mind  .

 

2) Quill’s likely idea:

100% of earnings (or close to) till a) debt is repaid, and b) replacement vehicle down payment, and perhaps more than that, is saved for must go for debt repayment and savings toward replacement car expenses   — except for expenses mutually agreed upon by Quill and dd.

 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, DawnM said:

@Qull, you need to talk to her.  Just sit her down and explain that you are struggling financially and you need to get the money paid back to you and you are frustrated that she purchased a purse instead of using that money to pay you back.  Tell her you know she has enough to pay the debt and you would suggest she do that before buying anything else. 

 

I will be talking to her today whenever I see her, which probably won’t be until noon. It will naturally happen because the purse is hanging over our heads and it is an obvious opener directly into talking about expectations. 

I don’t think you have it quite right, though...it’s not that I am anxious for her to pay me back so I can have that money. It’s that I want to see her understanding how small choices affect the whole. I don’t think this has occurred to her yet, though I feel like I have said these things my entire life. I buy milk at Costco or Aldi because those are the cheapest places and my family goes theough a lot of milk. So she has heard this SO many times! And many other thousands of small examples just like it. But I don’t think she thinks like that yet and I want her to. 

[shawthorne44]

People have talked about letting their adult kids be in charge of their own finances.   Which is all well and good, when they are spending their own money.  Effectively, Quill's DD is spending her parents money on things her parents would not buy for themselves.  

I tend to take a harder-line than most.   I would tell DD that I don't approve of her spending money on X, Y, and Z, since it is basically MY money she is spending.   That the next time I pay for something, it will only happen if all money in her bank account be turned over to me and any paychecks be deposited in my account.    She will then be put on a spending allowance.  Any extra expenses, like an interviewing outfit, will have to be approved by me.   Once she has paid off her debts (and maybe have a balance of X amount) then she can have control of her own money again.   Any objections would be met with "If you act like a 16-year-old, you will be treated like a 16-year-old".   I'd also point out that the turning over of the money won't happen until the next time she asks for money, so she might want to make sure that doesn't happen.  

[Pen]

@Quill There was a post in which you gave some actual figures as to your dd’s savings and debts. 

Could your dd use her savings to pay you back in full for the France trip, and pay her taxes owed, both in full, at this time? 

Then some plan for saving toward the car could be negotiated for money she earns during the rest of the summer. 

[Catwoman]

6 minutes ago, Quill said:

To @DawnM and @Ktgrok and @2squared or anyone else who is asking this, it is in the thread but presumably you don’t have time to read it all right now; she did not have a set, specific payback plan, though she has paid a third of what she owes so far for the trip. I did not devise a payment plan because I was trying to be gracious and consistent. She can only make a real dent in expenses during the summer and then not again until winter break. She might be able to have a campus job but it is doubtful because she holds a double major and a minor and is an excellent student who definitely plans to finish on time. 

So no, I did not say she had to pay this specific amount every month because I already know she doesn’t have the stability of income for that to make sense. The amount of money she has in her account at this moment is almost exactly equal to money she owes me and owes the IRS from 2017,which she had an extension to pay due to being out of the country. I do not have the expectation that she should do nothing frivolous until it is all paid up and she is driving a car and that is all paid up, but I am feeling under intense financial pressure right now and it hit me at very much a bad moment, since I think a purse is totally unnecessary in the best of circumstances. 

She knows I am trying to keep costs down because this has been thematic for her entire life, even though she doesn’t know all of the specific worries that are stressing me out. 

 

But that’s the thing, right there in your last sentence. You have always tried to keep costs down. You haven’t told her the specific worries that are stressing you out right now. So... she doesn’t realize that you used to be frugal because you WANTED to be, but now you are being frugal because you feel you HAVE to worry about money. If you are more open with her about what’s going on, she will probably make more of an effort to budget her money differently so she can repay you.

In your earlier posts, you made this more about the way you felt about purses being unnecessary and designer purses being only for people who wanted to show off. You clouded the issue by making this thread about the handbag and not about how you were worried about money and not being on the same page as your dh and not being able to communicate with him about it. Even now, it seems like you’re ok with your dd doing some frivolous things even while she still owes you some money (which is very nice of you,) but you get annoyed if she spends the money on something you wouldn’t personally want, like the handbag or expensive makeup. If she is allowed to spend some money — particularly at her age — I can understand you being concerned about the amount of money, but not about what she’s buying. She likes to spend her money on makeup and a nice handbag, and even if you don’t realize it, you have passed on some of your frugality to her, because she waited to buy the handbag until it was on an incredible clearance sale. 

 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Pen said:

@Quill There was a post in which you gave some actual figures as to your dd’s savings and debts. 

Could your dd use her savings to pay you back in full for the France trip, and pay her taxes owed, both in full, at this time? 

Then some plan for saving toward the car could be negotiated for money she earns during the rest of the summer. 

Yes, I edited it out because it bothers me to have those exact amounts posted publically. If she paid all the current debts owed, she would have maybe $100, although probably not now, because she just spent $60 of it. *wink* But I am loathe to do that because it does not fit with what I was trying to do. I am not in a rush about the debt for the sake of the money. It is about the principle. 

The car, the damn car, makes my head hurt because in my perfect, imaginary world, that car would last until she graduated. In some ways, it would have been better had the car remained totally undriveable. Because then, replacing the car would be entirely necessary. 

[Pen]

BTW if your dd owes tax money, it is probably accruing interest. And if she went past June 15, without filing an extension form, possibly penalties also. Bank of Mom probably has no interest or penalties on debt other than being sniped at or blown up at verbally, but other creditors usually do. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Pen said:

BTW if your dd owes tax money, it is probably accruing interest. And if she went past June 15, without filing an extension form, possibly penalties also. Bank of Mom probably has no interest or penalties on debt other than being sniped at or blown up at verbally, but other creditors usually do. 

I know this. I have an accountant who is doing her taxes. 

[wintermom]

I'd be annoyed about my child spending on a "want" when there is debt on the table. And the fact that she excitedly texts you about a fairly big purchase for her just shows she doesn't understand that debts need to be dealt with before "fun" spending happens. There's nothing wrong with you explaining this to her. She clearly needs that information.

[Pen]

1 minute ago, Quill said:

Yes, I edited it out because it bothers me to have those exact amounts posted publically. If she paid all the current debts owed, she would have maybe $100, although probably not now, because she just spent $60 of it. *wink* But I am loathe to do that because it does not fit with what I was trying to do. I am not in a rush about the debt for the sake of the money. It is about the principle. 

The car, the damn car, makes my head hurt because in my perfect, imaginary world, that car would last until she graduated. In some ways, it would have been better had the car remained totally undriveable. Because then, replacing the car would be entirely necessary. 

 

I think to teach the principle, if that is possible at all since she is a unique being who may have different principles than you, you will need to make it about the money. 

She needs to personally experience that paying back actually does come first, and if she had savings where she could pay back but has not done so, teaching her the principle will require that you demand the deed.   Sort of like when a child breaks someone’s window by carelessly throwing a baseball. The parent needs to take the child aside and tell the child that s/he must give the people whose window got broken all their saved up allowance to the value of replacing the window and if that is not enough do chores till it is paid off. 

If she only has $100 or $40 left in her account, if she has actually paid you back, then, perhaps, she will start to internalize the principles you want her to acquire. Perhaps with only $40 in her account she will start to make iced coffee at home. Maybe it would take having less than the cost of a coffee left. Maybe she won’t ever feel about money as you do, and will use credit cards to buy lattes when she is down to $0 in Bank 

 

[Pen]

12 minutes ago, Quill said:

I know this. I have an accountant who is doing her taxes. 

 

Doing her own taxes could be another good learning experience. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Catwoman said:

 

But that’s the thing, right there in your last sentence. You have always tried to keep costs down. You haven’t told her the specific worries that are stressing you out right now. So... she doesn’t realize that you used to be frugal because you WANTED to be, but now you are being frugal because you feel you HAVE to worry about money. If you are more open with her about what’s going on, she will probably make more of an effort to budget her money differently so she can repay you.

In your earlier posts, you made this more about the way you felt about purses being unnecessary and designer purses being only for people who wanted to show off. You clouded the issue by making this thread about the handbag and not about how you were worried about money and not being on the same page as your dh and not being able to communicate with him about it. Even now, it seems like you’re ok with your dd doing some frivolous things even while she still owes you some money (which is very nice of you,) but you get annoyed if she spends the money on something you wouldn’t personally want, like the handbag or expensive makeup. If she is allowed to spend some money — particularly at her age — I can understand you being concerned about the amount of money, but not about what she’s buying. She likes to spend her money on makeup and a nice handbag, and even if you don’t realize it, you have passed on some of your frugality to her, because she waited to buy the handbag until it was on an incredible clearance sale. 

 

You have this exactly backwards. When they were little, I both wanted to be frugal and HAD to be. I loosened up on some things for the past six or seven years, but have still been always talking about the frugal choices. <snipped details>

You are taking the stuff about designer bags personally. I have said repeatedly I do not care about other people’s purses or makeup. I only care about hers because she is still dependant upon us. If you personally have a purse that is expensive, I don’t care if it was $10,000. If that fits in with your life, knock yourself out. But let’s not pretend that it costs that because it is intended to last for twenty years. The purpose is to display status. That is why those price points exist. 

Edited July 22, 2018 by Quill
Removed details

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Doing her own taxes could be another good learning experience. 

She did them the previous year, but I screwed up. Our own taxes are very complicated and we have an accountant prepare them for us and for our businesses. But I made mistakes in attributing some things in 2016 when she and my son both filed their own because I don’t understand all the details on her scholarships, her mutual funds for college and how those things affect our taxes and which things go on our taxes vs. on the kids’. I did it wrong and paid a penalty. She did her taxes as in, she sat there and filled in the forms, but the information I gave her was not correct. 

[wintermom]

I think it's completely irrelevant what the item bought is. The simple fact is that she doesn't have money to spend on anything. If she bought the purse, or any thing, as a gift for Quill, I think Quill would have the same reaction. 

The girl is, or should be, in saving to pay off debt mode. I assume the car is essential for her future education, so that is a debt she'll be facing in the immediate future. All purchases of non-essentials are on hold for now. 

[Pen]

21 minutes ago, Quill said:

 

The car, the damn car, makes my head hurt because in my perfect, imaginary world, that car would last until she graduated. In some ways, it would have been better had the car remained totally undriveable. Because then, replacing the car would be entirely necessary. 

 

Right. But it is wonderful for being able to teach her about a real world where undesirable events happen and also where uncertainty is a given. 

To me it sounds like replacement of the car is necessary it is just not a dead car yet. But it is not dependable for her.  It might work for someone who is good at car repair and just needs an extra family car to toddle around a small town where getting out and walking anytime it broke down would be okay. 

[HomeAgain]

5 minutes ago, Quill said:

 

You are taking the stuff about designer bags personally. I have said repeatedly I do not care about other people’s purses or makeup. I only care about hers because she is still dependant upon us. If you personally have a purse that is expensive, I don’t care if it was $10,000. If that fits in with your life, knock yourself out. But let’s not pretend that it costs that because it is intended to last for twenty years. The purpose is to display status. That is why those price points exist. 

I would not hesitate to say that your judgement on those who buy them are why people take it personally.

My purse is not to display status.  My purse is an object that is well made, and that shows in its longevity and design.  So, seriously, check yourself and think about the attitude you portray here and how that translates to your dd.  If we see it, she does too.

Back on the debt repayment, you really need to detail it out with her.  You're not being fair to anyone, least of all to yourself and your relationship.

[BarbecueMom]

Lots of different components going on here, I won’t rehash them.  But one thing I’m not sure anyone has brought up is reconsidering your household policy on loaning money to family, even a dependent child.  I was in the opposite situation - loaning money to a parent and then resentful at wasteful spending when not being adequately repaid.  We let that one go and then quit loaning.  Gifts only.  Does it still bother me when she buys new wine bottles just for decoration when we dug her out of debt?  Yes, but not nearly as much as when I was keeping track of a balance.

I think borrowing from family only works when you don’t have this cross-class thing going on.  It didn’t work for our family, and that’s fine.  It’s fine when it does work for others, but there may be too much baggage here to make family loans and repayment work.

[Soror]

(hugs) I would be aggravated too. As you have said it is about the fact that she's buying a want when she owes money, not that she bought a fancy purse. I don't see it that you are jealous of her, she can only afford this frivolity because you are financing so many other things. In reality, her daughter couldn't afford anything if her parents weren't paying for so many other things. I hope you guys get it sorted out.

I find it kind of comical that $60 was called a small amount for a purse by any standards. No, that's not true, at all- $60 is a chunk of money for a lot of people. Buying nicer items means they will last longer but whether or not you end up financially ahead from that is another story, there is a point of diminishing returns. The extra amount paid for name brands doesn't always equal out to the better deal, now they be nicer and you may like them more but that doesn't mean they are a "good deal" I bought my last 2 purses at Goodwill, they were both $2, first one lasted 3 yrs or so, I just got the current one a few months ago. I'm hard-pressed to believe there is some designer purse out there that ends up costing less than a dollar a year, so no it would not have "saved" me money to buy a more expensive purse. Would they be nicer, yes, but the ones I bought from Goodwill have done the job just fine.

[Catwoman]

10 minutes ago, Quill said:

You have this exactly backwards. When they were little, I both wanted to be frugal and HAD to be. I loosened up on some things for the past six or seven years, but have still been always talking about the frugal choices. When we chose a college, for example, this was THE major theme. I am a LOT more hard-assed about this than others I know. Cars, clothes, dorm supplies - everything! I can my garden produce. I bake my own goodies and cook my own food, except for when the Hive gives me permission to buy Chinese. *wink* i just paid $11,000 dollars in college tuition for her. I still need to pay DS’. I owe the county $8000 in property taxes. Dental implant for DH; root canal for dd. Replace one old van and then have the orher old car break down. 

Now I have to worry about money because I am the only one worrying about it. DH is in la-la-land, from whence I am not confident he will ever return. 

You are taking the stuff about designer bags personally. I have said repeatedly I do not care about other people’s purses or makeup. I only care about hers because she is still dependant upon us. If you personally have a purse that is expensive, I don’t care if it was $10,000. If that fits in with your life, knock yourself out. But let’s not pretend that it costs that because it is intended to last for twenty years. The purpose is to display status. That is why those price points exist. 

 

But forget about the status thing for a minute. 

On one hand, you’re saying it’s fine for your dd to make some frivolous purchases here and there, even while she still owes you the money, but on the other hand, you seem to think you should be able to dictate what those purchases should be, or at least make harsh judgments about them afterward. All things considered, she’s not recklessly spending crazy amounts of money. She’s not spending the money on drugs and alcohol. What I’m saying is that if you’re ok with her spending some money on fun things, it shouldn’t matter to you what she chooses, because she’s buying things she likes, even if it’s not what you like. 

You are the one who seems fixated on the designer purse. You said yourself that you wouldn’t have minded if she had bought something practical like a new coat. But most women carry handbags, so I’m not sure why the purse doesn’t count as a practical purchase. The only reason you’re upset is because you are biased against purses and name brands for some reason, and that’s what doesn’t make sense. 

You didn’t say she shouldn’t spend any money at all before she pays you back. You said that spending some money is okay, but that she shouldn’t be spending it on a designer purse. That’s where I’m seeing the disconnect.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, BarbecueMom said:

Lots of different components going on here, I won’t rehash them.  But one thing I’m not sure anyone has brought up is reconsidering your household policy on loaning money to family, even a dependent child.  I was in the opposite situation - loaning money to a parent and then resentful at wasteful spending when not being adequately repaid.  We let that one go and then quit loaning.  Gifts only.  Does it still bother me when she buys new wine bottles just for decoration when we dug her out of debt?  Yes, but not nearly as much as when I was keeping track of a balance.

I think borrowing from family only works when you don’t have this cross-class thing going on.  It didn’t work for our family, and that’s fine.  It’s fine when it does work for others, but there may be too much baggage here to make family loans and repayment work.

Yeah, and generally, I am not a “loaner.” The France debt was not anticipated, but once it was apparent, there was nothing reasonable to do except what I did. At one point it was obvious that if I took out all the money necessary to pay the France credit card, she would be unable to fly home or eat beyond one meal a day. So that is how it accrued. 

In general, I am not a loaner. 

[DawnM]

3 minutes ago, BarbecueMom said:

Lots of different components going on here, I won’t rehash them.  But one thing I’m not sure anyone has brought up is reconsidering your household policy on loaning money to family, even a dependent child.  I was in the opposite situation - loaning money to a parent and then resentful at wasteful spending when not being adequately repaid.  We let that one go and then quit loaning.  Gifts only.  Does it still bother me when she buys new wine bottles just for decoration when we dug her out of debt?  Yes, but not nearly as much as when I was keeping track of a balance.

I think borrowing from family only works when you don’t have this cross-class thing going on.  It didn’t work for our family, and that’s fine.  It’s fine when it does work for others, but there may be too much baggage here to make family loans and repayment work.

 

My boys are still fairly young.  We don't loan them money, we only give gifts.  However, their college expenses are a different matter.  One of them chose a private (AKA: expensive) college.  We told him we would pay a certain amount and he has to pay the difference.  He knows that and is 100% clear on the expectations.  Will we have issues with this later on?  We don't know that yet.

My point?  I think we sometimes aren't as clear as we think we are.  Some kids need things spelled out.  Sometimes I think I am clear about things and I am not.  I could give an example of my middle son, but it isn't relevant to this discussion other than saying I thought I was clear and I wasn't or he didn't listen or something......so we are backpedaling now.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

I would not hesitate to say that your judgement on those who buy them are why people take it personally.

My purse is not to display status.  My purse is an object that is well made, and that shows in its longevity and design.  So, seriously, check yourself and think about the attitude you portray here and how that translates to your dd.  If we see it, she does too.

Back on the debt repayment, you really need to detail it out with her.  You're not being fair to anyone, least of all to yourself and your relationship.

So, what do you think is the purpose of having a lable? Is there no such thing as a well-made thing that is not a designer brand? The fact that Consumer Reports always has their “best value” category siggest that there is. Costco’s Kirkland batteries are more durable than Duracell. But they cost less and have plain packaging. 

People often buy brands that are the literal same exact thing as some non-brand thing but they want the brand thing so they can display that it’s a Yeti thermos or whatever. 

Read what @soror just said about the purse from GW. 

[Scarlett]

Quill I just read the whole thread and I am sorry you are stressing out.  I am also sorry for the judgment you are getting about your stress from people who are living a life of wealth/privilege or whatever term we want to use.  

When I saw the picture of your beautiful home I knew from my years here with you that you have that beautiful home not because you are big spenders or wealthy but because your Dh is a contractor who built it.  That happens though....we give snapshots and people don't remember everything we post or they over remember certain things and draw incorrect conclusions.

My ds18 just spent almost $1000 on a phone.  That just makes me a little ill.  But the fact is, our agreement is he lives here for free while he goes to college ---so he doesn't owe me money.  If he did owe me money I would have definitely voiced my displeasure with the decision to buy a $1000 phone.  

I am reminded of Dave Ramsey talking about how Sunday dinner with the family tastes a little better when you don't owe your family money.  But helping kds through college is not quite the same thing as loaning family money.  

 

[KrissiK]

10 minutes ago, BarbecueMom said:

Lots of different components going on here, I won’t rehash them.  But one thing I’m not sure anyone has brought up is reconsidering your household policy on loaning money to family, even a dependent child.  I was in the opposite situation - loaning money to a parent and then resentful at wasteful spending when not being adequately repaid.  We let that one go and then quit loaning.  Gifts only.  Does it still bother me when she buys new wine bottles just for decoration when we dug her out of debt?  Yes, but not nearly as much as when I was keeping track of a balance.

I think borrowing from family only works when you don’t have this cross-class thing going on.  It didn’t work for our family, and that’s fine.  It’s fine when it does work for others, but there may be too much baggage here to make family loans and repayment work.

This.

4 minutes ago, Quill said:

Yeah, and generally, I am not a “loaner.” The France debt was not anticipated, but once it was apparent, there was nothing reasonable to do except what I did. At one point it was obvious that if I took out all the money necessary to pay the France credit card, she would be unable to fly home or eat beyond one meal a day. So that is how it accrued. 

In general, I am not a loaner. 

I am the same way. I completely understand and agree with your original post, I would feel the same way. DH and I are careful spenders, And we have a spend-thrift son, who is still a teenager, but drives us crazy.  The only way I would get through this, if I were in your position, is to consider the loan a gift and write it off. It would nag at me and I would become resentful and it would really take a toll on the relationship.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I'm offended that the very wealthy people are offended that the people who can't afford luxuries have some judgment toward the prioritizing of luxuries.

Or I would be offended if it weren't just ridiculous that anyone is getting offended! Of COURSE the "Have Nots" are going to have different conversations about money than the "Haves."

We've got rich folks reading poor people's mail and getting mad about it.

It would make the same amount of sense (read:none) if the conflict was flowing the other direction.

Which it will be soon, don't worry...after all, this is us...lol. Another thread, another day.

 

[HomeAgain]

1 minute ago, Quill said:

So, what do you think is the purpose of having a lable? Is there no such thing as a well-made thing that is not a designer brand? The fact that Consumer Reports always has their “best value” category siggest that there is. Costco’s Kirkland batteries are more durable than Duracell. But they cost less and have plain packaging. 

People often buy brands that are the literal same exact thing as some non-brand thing but they want the brand thing so they can display that it’s a Yeti thermos or whatever. 

Read what @soror just said about the purse from GW. 

If my use of English before didn't give you an idea, then I'm not sure what re-explaining the idea of quality is now.  You are grasping at logical fallacies.  There are well made things that are not designer brands.  I never said that ONLY designer brands are well made, or that ALL of them are.  Stop.  Think.  And read.
As I've stated, all my previous purses came from the thrift store and store clearances. It was how I found quality while sifting through the rest.  You seem to imply that just because I have spent money on a purse that I've used for 10 years (and will for 10 more), that I insist on brand name items for the rest of my house.  Am I wrong here?  You think that just because I found quality in a well made item where I paid for fair labor and craftsmanship that I know will last that I insist on names only?  I have L.L.Bean shoes because they fit me well, I have an outlet here that makes them 60% off, and they have a guarantee of craftsmanship behind them.  Yet I'm sitting here in a thrift store shirt, on my third-handmedown couch, and eating cucumber slices I just took off the vine in my garden.  I have no ideas where my batteries come from.  I don't care.  The things I do care about I look for the best I can afford/feel is reasonable for an item.  We bought several different insulated Kleen Kanteens off of Woot 11 or so years ago.  They're still going today.  We've replaced a few lids, but they do exactly what they need to do for us.  If I got that good of a deal on a Yeti thermos back then we might have had those instead - their name is often synonymous with being dependable and reliable.  Our older thermoses were not.

So, yes, check yourself.  You are making assumptions about people because of inborn prejudice, and that's not cool.  Just because it is not something you value doesn't make it worthless.  It means you make other choices.