Dyselxia help

[4KookieKids]

I was just wondering how NILD educational therapy is or is not related to OG intervention for dyslexia for a 1st grader.

Edited August 6, 2018 by 4KookieKids

[Lecka]

From looking at the website it doesn’t look like it is an OG program.  

[Lecka]

https://dyslexiaida.org/multisensory-structured-language-teaching-fact-sheet/

Here is a fact sheet I googled that tells about the components of OG instruction.

Also if you see inside the Blue Book you might see if it sounds like the fact sheet to you.

To me it doesn’t because it says it’s using keywords and an associative approach, which does not sound like OG to me.  I think OG is more left-to-right decoding through a word (sounding out a word), and phonograms are taught.

I don’t know, though.

Edited

[Heathermomster]

https://athome.readinghorizons.com/solutions/orton-gillingham-2

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1118845242/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Lecka]

https://blog.allaboutlearningpress.com/sound-out-words/

This shows about blending from left-to-right.

With associative — what does that mean exactly?  Does it mean it’s more of saying “if I know lunch, and I see brunch, they both end in -unch, and if I know bread, then I can take the br from bread and the unch from lunch to sound out brunch.”  

Or does it mean if they forget a letter sound they are prompted to look at a keyword or picture chart?  Personally I just prompt by giving the sound if it is needed. 

But it’s hard to tell from one sentence on that link.  

[4KookieKids]

On 7/20/2018 at 6:37 AM, Lecka said:

 

If your daughter is making progress and it is going well I think that is the main thing.  

 

I’m not sure she is and it was suggested she might be too young.

Edited August 6, 2018 by 4KookieKids

[Lecka]

No.  She should be making progress at 7.

What your friend is doing could be good for her when she is older.  

But it sounds like your friend doesn’t see progress right now and maybe would do it again when your daughter is older.  

I think maybe look into an OG program.

Also, do you know, other than from your friend, that your daughter has dyslexia?

Its used as a catch-all term sometimes.

Other times it means something very specific about very specific kinds of trouble with learning to read (often trouble with phonemic awareness).

So that is confusing lol.  

 

 

[4KookieKids]

19 minutes ago, Lecka said:

https://blog.allaboutlearningpress.com/sound-out-words/

This shows about blending from left-to-right.

With associative — what does that mean exactly?  Does it mean it’s more of saying “if I know lunch, and I see brunch, they both end in -unch, and if I know bread, then I can take the br from bread and the unch from lunch to sound out brunch.”  

Or does it mean if they forget a letter sound they are prompted to look at a keyword or picture chart?  Personally i just prompt by giving the sound if it is needed. 

But it’s hard to tell from one sentence on that link.  

 

My understanding is that the associative key word thing is about associating word to letter sounds. Like I as in ink. I as in ice. Etc.

[Lecka]

Also — if your friend said 7 might be too young, then it’s definitely not an OG program.  7 is not too young at all.  

[4KookieKids]

6 minutes ago, Lecka said:

No.  She should be making progress at 7.

What your friend is doing could be good for her when she is older.  

But it sounds like your friend doesn’t see progress right now and maybe would do it again when your daughter is older.  

I think maybe look into an OG program.

Also, do you know, other than from your friend, that your daughter has dyslexia?

Its used as a catch-all term sometimes.

Other times it means something very specific about very specific kinds of trouble with learning to read (often trouble with phonemic awareness).

So that is confusing lol.  

 

 

 

Yes she was evaluated by a speech language pathologist but the slp doesn’t  actually do remediation. Phonemic awareness and processing was in the 6th percentile, in spite of most other scores being above the 90th.

[Lecka]

Well that is good information to have!  That does sound like she would really benefit from an OG program.  

There are more options, but it’s too bad what your friend is doing isn’t working out.  It could still be good later.  Maybe she works with older kids who have already had some reading remediation.  

[Kanin]

Your friend is extremely nice to tutor your daughter for free ? The Morse code, tangrams, etc. sound fun, but I'm not sure what that has to do with reading. Unfortunately, I can't find much information about the Blue Book Method. I'd never heard of it before. When I try to Google, I'm not able to see much about it, and I really don't think it's Orton-Gillingham based. Since you wouldn't want to offend your friend, could you just say something like, "Yeah, maybe she's too young after all - I might try to do some stuff with her at home," and then exit the tutoring gracefully?

The good news is that since your daughter is only 7, she'd probably be open to working on reading with you. Any OG-based program will do, and you're going to focus on building phonemic awareness, associating sounds to letters, and blending sounds together to make words. If you could do two 15-minute practice sessions a day, that would be pretty awesome at age 7 ? 

[PeterPan]

https://bartonreading.com/students/#ss  This is the free student screening from Barton. It will tell you whether she has the foundation to go forward with ANY OG program or whether she needs some preparatory work first. Takes maybe 10-15 minutes. Report back here with the results if you want.

http://nild.org/nild-educational-therapy-2/  This is what NILD certifies them in, which is an overall kind of thing, not dyslexia-specific, and certainly not OG. Your friend sounds like a very nice person, but honestly it's cruel to keep a child who is ready to read from proper reading instruction and it's outright malpractice if she misrepresented herself as a dyslexia specialist.

If your insurance covers SLPs, then consider looking for an SLP who specializes in literacy. They DO exist and some will be certified in OG. I would not go to an SLP for literacy who is *not* certified in OG, just my opinion personally. Now there are some newer programs that can be effective, but still I think the best ones are still OG-certified. But if funding is the issue and your insurance will cover SLPs (which is stupid considering what they bill at), then look for an SLP that hangs out their shingle as specializing in literacy. I would have to drive almost an hour to find one, but they are around. Finding them is the trick, honestly. There's not some kind of list or something, I don't think. You could try the LearningAlly list that these practitioners can self-list on. You may find someone really good, because there are good ones out there.

Thank your friend kindly and go get actual reading instruction. Your dd deserves actual, explicit, evidence-based reading instruction. Therapies for overall learning, vision therapy, etc. are terrific for eliminating foundational problems. but reality is a dyslexic needs structured, systematic, intensive, evidence-based reading instruction. Go get it Mama Bear.

Adding, if you can't get insurance coverage, then absolutely start asking about options. This stuff is not so rocket science that you can't do it. I'll get you a link where you can have everything you need to implement OG for FREE, totally free. And it's seriously ALL THERE.

[PeterPan]

https://www.smartspeechtherapy.com/free-literacy-resources-for-parents-and-professionals/  List of literacy resources that will blow your mind. Has every major category.

http://www.marooneyfoundation.org It's all here and it's FREE. This is free OG from a place that's on a mission to make sure EVERYONE has access to OG. They made it just for you. 

[4KookieKids]

Ok. This is sort of wha I was concerned about. Insurance will not cover an SLP for her and we just can’t pay it out of pocket right now. We have a local list of OG tutors, but none of them take insurance anyway. I’ve been shying away from doing it myself b cause I’ve been overwhelmed with life in general but I’m going to buckle down and read through that free website you listed, PeterPan. Maybe we can see an OG person once a month or so just to check in that I’m on the right track with things. Is this when I start repeating , “I think I can, I think I can, I think I can”? Lol.

[PeterPan]

Start with the Barton screening. It takes 15 minutes, is free, and will give you some important information. Seriously, people will hold your hands here but that's where you start. Free, doesn't take long. You need to know about those foundational skills to know what your first step is for materials. Start there.

Experts are a funny thing. I'm with you that sometimes having accountability and structure really helps. But sometimes you spend more time on the road than it's worth. Just depends. I think the other thing is that your 3 and 5 yos might benefit from this. Training YOU is going to make your instruction with them better if they have needs. Getting connected on these resources will help you find things that benefit your ds9 as well. He might need some morphology or things that are more advanced that you'll be getting connected with. So it's not time wasted because it's going to help ALL your kids.

[Pen]

Wow I googled NILD and found NILD says that NILD has been helping kids with dyslexia for 40 years — but this is the first I ever heard of it!

I think this is where you find a good dyslexia reading program that you can use at home and start doing it.  You will see progress when progress is being made  

Both Barton linked above, and High Noon (I am unable to make links work lately so apologize in advance if this does not work  or gets only to general home page. — we used the Reading Intervention program and Sound Out Chapter Books) have directions for how to use them.

 

[PeterPan]

Yeah, we've had NILD mentioned before. Storygirl was looking at some schools that had NILD trained people. She ended up not going with them but going with a school that had more typical training. At least that's what I was remembering. 

The challenge is that Barton doesn't fit her pricepoint. It also doesn't answer if this dc2 has any language issues. Unfortunately, once ASD is on the table with a sibling, that has to be considered. Maybe there won't be, but there could be. In fact, if you believe Elleseff at that Smart Therapy blog, she thinks it's frankly uncommon to have dyslexia WITHOUT further language issues. That's why neuropsychs run language screening as part of their dyslexia evals and it's why the dyslexia schools have SLPs. For us, the ASD-related language issues made everything have a few more hoops to jump through. But that's just rabbit trails. 

Take it one step at a time. Start somewhere. Learn. Don't let anybody intimidate you. You'll be able to make this happen at a pricepoint you can afford. You'll find the time because you're amazing. You only have to step one step ahead of them, not 12. You've got this.

[Pen]

http://Www.highnoonbooks.com

the reading intervention program by Brownell and Akers.  Brownell, I think, also assisted me over the phone with how to implement the program with my son and troubleshooting some problems. 

It is way less expensive than Barton if it would work for your family. 

[PeterPan]

Ok, I'll just say this. With my ds with autism I've gone through the whole wish I could pawn it off to experts, finally taking it over and doing it myself, thing OVER AND OVER AND OVER. It's ok that you tried an expert, and it's ok that they failed or it's time for a change. It as a little vacation for you, a breather, accomplishing something while you grappled with this. 

You CAN get trained and do this stuff. You may need some help, and you may get kinda firm with the dh or do some tough love stuff. Like me, I'd probably enroll the 3 and 5 yos somewhere worthwhile, even for a few months, and use that time to get this stuff on track. Tough love, tough choices. Training YOURSELF will be the most valuable thing, because YOU are the one who is there all the time. So if you need to buy Barton or take a week for an online training or to go through the MA Rooney Foundation materials (and send 'em all to camps at the Y) or whatever it takes, do it. That's where you get firm and you tell the dh you need the support, people have to suck up and help you learn this stuff. YOU are the most valuable person to get trained.

[Lecka]

My little kids watched 4 episodes of Dora while I worked with my son.  Definitely it’s not ideal, but he did learn to read.  

Edit:  to clarify — I stuck them in the basement to watch Dora while I worked with my son upstairs, so it could be quiet and we wouldn’t have interruptions.  So — not ideal.  

[alisoncooks]

The friend sounds like her approach is more of "brain training" than explicit reading instruction. My children (both) are/were struggling readers; undiagnosed because of $, but most likely dyslexic. I just want to add:  you can totally do this!  Barton is highly regarded, but it was out of our price range.  I remediated oldest DD with several programs (Dancing Bears, I See Sam, REWARDS Intermediate). Youngest is still slowly (but surely) progressing. 

[PeterPan]

23 minutes ago, Lecka said:

My little kids watched 4 episodes of Dora while I worked with my son.  Definitely it’s not ideal, but he did learn to read.  

Edit:  to clarify — I stuck them in the basement to watch Dora while I worked with my son upstairs, so it could be quiet and we wouldn’t have interruptions.  So — not ideal.  

Absolutely! And you can call in the chits and ask a grandma or a nice person in the church or something to help. Or take a free ps preschool or low cost Y preschool/daycamps. The only situation where I *wouldn't* plunk in front of the tv is suspected ASD. Doing that will just make it worse. But as long as it's not ASD, absolutely, turn on some Peg and Cat, Mr. Rogers, whatever, and get your self training or your work with the dc done. We LOVE Peg and Cat. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, PeterPan said:

In fact, if you believe Elleseff at that Smart Therapy blog, she thinks it's frankly uncommon to have dyslexia WITHOUT further language issues. That's why neuropsychs run language screening as part of their dyslexia evals and it's why the dyslexia schools have SLPs.

In Elleseff's website there's a link to the NJ Dyslexia Handbook. In it it explains that kids with dyslexia do not commonly have comprehension as an underlying core deficit. Comprehension problems (10% - 15% from another page in the same handbook) may derive from difficulties decoding with proper fluency, leading to some comprehension issues. Completely different from ASD. And the language testing for ASD is not the same as for dyslexia.

That said, since the OP already has a child with ASD, looking into the possibility of ASD in her daughter may be a good idea, if there are any red flags that would indicate something like that. Otherwise, she could be going down an expensive road trying to tackle deficits that aren't there.

[4KookieKids]

On 7/20/2018 at 12:33 PM, Moved On said:

That said, since the OP already has a child with ASD, looking into the possibility of ASD in her daughter may be a good idea, if there are any red flags that would indicate something like that. Otherwise, she could be going down an expensive road trying to tackle deficits that aren't there.

 

None of the professionals we’ve seen with this child (Ped, two psychologists in the last four years, neuropsych, OT or SLP) believe that ASD is at play with her. We’ve asked because of her outbursts and intensity and other behavioral issues and the sibling with ASD.

Edited July 21, 2018 by 4KookieKids
Removing some details.

[4KookieKids]

So from what I’m seeing, they aren’t ready for OG if they still struggle with syllables? We’ve been working on syllabification for over a year now, and it’s still a problem. She either views the whole thing as one clap (like tomato was 1 syllable, yesterday...) or she splits up the sounds (like cat had theee syllables, yesterday). She gets it right sometimes of course, but I’m guessing it’s just random luck!

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, 4KookieKids said:

...but they all point to excellent communication skills, a piercing understanding of social and emotionally situations (even if it’s accompanied by an unwillingness to jump into the fray in large groups), and her flexibility with respect to changing plans as reasons why they don’t consider ASD to be a contributing factor to her struggles. I keep the consideration in the back of my thoughts as we muddle through things with her, and have read some books on aspergirls, but we’re not pursuing that consideration for the present.

Yup, that makes perfect sense. And, I just remembered your other thread now. Keep at the back of your mind also that siblings can go through emotional challenges when there is a family member with special needs. 

[Pen]

3 minutes ago, 4KookieKids said:

So from what I’m seeing, they aren’t ready for OG if they still struggle with syllables? We’ve been working on syllabification for over a year now, and it’s still a problem. She either views the whole thing as one clap (like tomato was 1 syllable, yesterday...) or she splits up the sounds (like cat had theee syllables, yesterday). She gets it right sometimes of course, but I’m guessing it’s just random luck!

 

The program that I gave you a link to above ( High Noon) works with single syllable words for its whole first (around 64 lessons that could easily take a dyslexic 7yo child a year) level of the intervention program, starting with the letters and their sounds (briefly) then on to words with short vowel sounds. Then long vowel sound words...   eventually blends and digraphs, and less common combinations...

Its second level starts syllabification. That is considered an advanced level. 

Or to summarize, no. She certainly does not need to be able to do syllables first!!!

[4KookieKids]

2 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

The program that I gave you a link to above ( High Noon) works with single syllable words for its whole first (around 64 lessons that could easily take a dyslexic 7yo child a year) level of the intervention program, starting with the letters and their sounds (briefly) then on to words with short vowel sounds. Then long vowel sound words...   eventually blends and digraphs, and less common combinations...

Its second level starts syllabification. That is considered an advanced level. 

Or to summarize, no. She certainly does not need to be able to do syllables first!!!

 

Ah, the Barton screener had syllables and said that needed to be solid first it seemed. But maybe not all programs require that then.

[Pen]

6 minutes ago, 4KookieKids said:

 

Ah, the Barton screener had syllables and said that needed to be solid first it seemed. But maybe not all programs require that then.

 

I don’t recall that being a reason I chose High Noon, but it is definitely not needed for High Noon to work  

If you go to their website and find the part that has the Reading Intervention program, there is somewhere that you can see samples of the materials 

[PeterPan]

58 minutes ago, 4KookieKids said:

 

None of the professionals we’ve seen with this child (Ped, two psychologists in the last four years, neuropsych, OT or SLP) believe that ASD is at play with her. We’ve asked because of her outbursts and intensity and other behavioral issues and the sibling with ASD. They’ve considered adhd, bipolar, anxiety, SPD and just gifted as possible explanations for her struggles, but they all point to excellent communication skills, a piercing understanding of social and emotionally situations (even if it’s accompanied by an unwillingness to jump into the fray in large groups), and her flexibility with respect to changing plans as reasons why they don’t consider ASD to be a contributing factor to her struggles. I keep the consideration in the back of my thoughts as we muddle through things with her, and have read some books on aspergirls, but we’re not pursuing that consideration for the present.

Most common identification for your Aspie kind of profile is 10-12, right? Look it up. The kids are older, because the discrepancies aren't apparent till later, as the kids pull away. You can also look at the Social Communication Profiles on SocialThinking.com

49 minutes ago, 4KookieKids said:

So from what I’m seeing, they aren’t ready for OG if they still struggle with syllables? We’ve been working on syllabification for over a year now, and it’s still a problem. She either views the whole thing as one clap (like tomato was 1 syllable, yesterday...) or she splits up the sounds (like cat had theee syllables, yesterday). She gets it right sometimes of course, but I’m guessing it’s just random luck!

Could I just point out the irony for you that you just described significant language issues, such that a 7 yo cannot even identify syllables, but they're telling you she has "excellent communication skills"? So did they run anything beyond the CELF and CASL to back up their assertion that your gifted dc has no language issues going on? 

My ds' language issues were missed for a long time, even though they were obvious, because he had memorized language top down, whole to parts. So he couldn't manipulate the parts (your dd's issues with syllables) because he wasn't actually manipulating words as words. We finally ended up doing the SPELT, the TNL, etc. and showed it. That's why I say don't trust these people, get language testing. If it's dyslexia, there are probably going to be language disability components to be identified because dyslexia is considered a language processing disorder. To straight OG people who only have OG training, they view it as a phonological processing disorder. But to the SLPs (and if you read farther), dyslexia is a language processing disorder, meaning they expect more going on. So whether you call it a developmental language delay or dyslexia or whatever, the fact is that thorough language testing would be warranted at this point. If your insurance will cover it, and if you can get someone who actually owns the better tests, it would be worth your time. The TILLS is really popular right now and can show a bunch of stuff. 

[ElizabethB]

I would just break down and buy LiPS, it sounds like she needs it for at least a few things.  It is fairly easy to use, very scripted.  I should have bought it years ago, a lot of my students could have benefited from it.  It has good exercises for both sounds and syllables.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0890797536/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

You can order the mouth magnets form the LiPS people or get some free ones and make 2 copies, 1 with letters and one where you cut off the letters and just use the lip position.

https://www.teacherspayteachers.com/Product/Speech-Sound-Cue-Cards-Freebie-2196455

[Guest]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Could I just point out the irony for you that you just described significant language issues, such that a 7 yo cannot even identify syllables, but they're telling you she has "excellent communication skills"? So did they run anything beyond the CELF and CASL to back up their assertion that your gifted dc has no language issues going on? 

My ds' language issues were missed for a long time, even though they were obvious, because he had memorized language top down, whole to parts. So he couldn't manipulate the parts (your dd's issues with syllables) because he wasn't actually manipulating words as words. We finally ended up doing the SPELT, the TNL, etc. and showed it. That's why I say don't trust these people, get language testing. If it's dyslexia, there are probably going to be language disability components to be identified because dyslexia is considered a language processing disorder. To straight OG people who only have OG training, they view it as a phonological processing disorder. But to the SLPs (and if you read farther), dyslexia is a language processing disorder, meaning they expect more going on. So whether you call it a developmental language delay or dyslexia or whatever, the fact is that thorough language testing would be warranted at this point. If your insurance will cover it, and if you can get someone who actually owns the better tests, it would be worth your time. The TILLS is really popular right now and can show a bunch of stuff. 

I'm confused how verbal communication has anything to do with reading related phonological awareness issues. Could you explain it to me? I have not had the need to read resources on dyslexia since we don't have that issue in our home.

I kept my kids, both on the autism spectrum, away from audio books. Since they are both highly visual it was not an approach that would have been suitable for them. We used books and comprehension strategies. Neither one of my two ever had that problem, even though my youngest had delayed echolalia when he was younger. And even when he did use echolalia, he was trying to comprehend what he was saying. This is when I would jump in and help him with comprehension. Everything else, things like prepositions etc. we covered with primarily preschool curricula and resources I created when my boys were around age 4 to 5. We all approach things in our way, using the resources at our disposal as tools along the way.

[ElizabethB]

You won't make much progress until you address the phonemic awareness and processing.  

I would do LiPS, then follow with "Recipe for Reading" OG manual and Sophris West Rewards.

After doing the Recipe for Reading with a whiteboard for a few weeks, I would work through my syllables program.

Then, complete Recipe for Reading words, then do Sophris West, then my syllables program again, then all of Webster while reviewing with a good phonics program like Phonics Pathways or Word Mastery using the techniques learned in "Recipe for Reading."

[Guest]

Just to clarify, I kept my boys, who are not dyslexic, away from audiobooks. Audio books are highly recommended for kids with dyslexia. Different learners, different approach, especially when the child does not have both labels.

[PeterPan]

37 minutes ago, ElizabethB said:

You won't make much progress until you address the phonemic awareness and processing.  

I would do LiPS, then follow with "Recipe for Reading" OG manual and Sophris West Rewards.

After doing the Recipe for Reading with a whiteboard for a few weeks, I would work through my syllables program.

Then, complete Recipe for Reading words, then do Sophris West, then my syllables program again, then all of Webster while reviewing with a good phonics program like Phonics Pathways or Word Mastery using the techniques learned in "Recipe for Reading."

Just to mess with you a little bit, hehe, did you go look at the MA Rooney foundation stuff I was linking her to? Free. OG. Now I think sometimes you can get Recipe for Reading from the library for free, yes, but it's a little scant. Lots of ways to skin a cat. I just thought the Rooney Foundation offerings were amazing for the price. 

[ElizabethB]

13 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Just to mess with you a little bit, hehe, did you go look at the MA Rooney foundation stuff I was linking her to? Free. OG. Now I think sometimes you can get Recipe for Reading from the library for free, yes, but it's a little scant. Lots of ways to skin a cat. I just thought the Rooney Foundation offerings were amazing for the price. 

I didn't, what a great resource!  I would go with free, then...

But the Recipe for Reading manual is cheap, around $20 for over 200 pages, and you don't have to print anything.  The MA Rooney stuff looks very easy to use once you print it all out, though.

https://www.amazon.com/Recipe-Reading-Revised-Expanded-Traub/dp/0838805051/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1532117312&sr=8-1&keywords=recipe+for+reading

I'm going to have to update my dyslexia page and add those links.  I may add it a few other places on my website, too. 

[Pen]

Adding a thought on sounds and syllabication—

my ds had had hearing / ear problems and was in speech IEPs for some years. 

Working on reading helped him a lot with sounds, for example, he finally really got that yellow is not lellow when he was able to see the Y and understanding that Y is making a /y/ sound not a /l/ sound.

He could read, including multi syllable words, and was excellent at the rhythm parts of playing guitar, before he would have been able to do the syllable clapping tests. Again, he really learned what a syllable was gradually and in large part as a result of learning to read, not as a prerequisite. 

There are deaf people who cannot hear sounds well, not speak them clearly—yet can read advanced level academic, legal, etc. materials. 

I had a classmate in grad level school who was deaf and almost impossible to understand his speech, who I don’t think could have passed the Barton screening—however, he could read   

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Pen said:

Adding a thought on sounds and syllabication—

my ds had had hearing / ear problems and was in speech IEPs for some years. 

Working on reading helped him a lot with sounds, for example, he finally really got that yellow is not lellow when he was able to see the Y and understanding that Y is making a /y/ sound not a /l/ sound.

He could read, including multi syllable words, and was excellent at the rhythm parts of playing guitar, before he would have been able to do the syllable clapping tests. Again, he really learned what a syllable was gradually and in large part as a result of learning to read, not as a prerequisite. 

There are deaf people who cannot hear sounds well, not speak them clearly—yet can read advanced level academic, legal, etc. materials. 

I had a classmate in grad level school who was deaf and almost impossible to understand his speech, who I don’t think could have passed the Barton screening—however, he could read   

Thank you, Pen. I can understand what you are saying. What I can't understand is how this would affect verbal comprehension and from there social communication. Did your son, for example, not understand what "yellow" was when he called it "lellow"? From kids that I have known with articulation issues, the comprehension issues were not there. 

[Pen]

Just now, Moved On said:

Thank you, Pen. I can understand what you are saying. What I can't understand is how this would affect verbal comprehension and from there social communication. Did your son, for example, not understand what "yellow" was when he called it "lellow"? From kids that I have known with articulation issues, the comprehension issues were not there. 

 

I was trying to reply to some of what 4kookiekids had posted    I don’t know the answer to your questions for PeterPan  

I do know that dyslexia often goes with early speech (articulation) and sometimes hearing problems. 

My son understood what color lellow was.   And he was not having trouble making a y sound, he could say yarn and yell just fine, but he did not understand that yellow was supposed to have a y sound till he was able to read the written word Apparently the way everyone said it sounded like lellow to him    He still has more trouble at age 16 with some sounds or syllables than most teens do  

My son has no reading comprehension issues. He has dyslexia and dysgraphia. His decoding was zero at age 7    His comprehension is somewhere in the 90s percentile  without any accommodations for being slower at the decoding parts and more like 99th percentile if he has extra time  

I was trying to address the OP’s issue of her dd not being able to do part B of Barton. Being able to do it may mean readiness for Barton and that Barton would be a good fit. 

Not being able to do it, may or may not mean go to LIPS first. For my son, my profoundly deaf class mate, and I am sure others , focus on sound, and so on may not be the best approach to reading. 

[Pen]

Also @4KookieKids  

www.talkingfingers.com was a helpful adjunct to reading which taught basic typing, and might be helpful for all your kids not just your 7yo 

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I was trying to reply to some of what 4kookiekids had posted    I don’t know the answer to your questions for PeterPan  

I do know that dyslexia often goes with early speech (articulation) and sometimes hearing problems. 

My son understood what color lellow was.   And he was not having trouble making a y sound, he could say yarn and yell just fine, but he did not understand that yellow was supposed to have a y sound till he was able to read the written word Apparently the way everyone said it sounded like lellow to him    He still has more trouble at age 16 with some sounds or syllables than most teens do  

My son has no reading comprehension issues. He has dyslexia and dysgraphia. His decoding was zero at age 7    His comprehension is somewhere in the 90s percentile  without any accommodations for being slower at the decoding parts and more like 99th percentile if he has extra time  

I was trying to address the OP’s issue of her dd not being able to do part B of Barton. Being able to do it may mean readiness for Barton and that Barton would be a good fit. 

Not being able to do it, may or may not mean go to LIPS first. For my son, my profoundly deaf class mate, and I am sure others , focus on sound, and so on may not be the best approach to reading. 

Apologies, I thought you were attempting to explain ?

And, yes, what you are describing is what I know. I did look into dyslexia a bit when I was asked to look into it for a family member back home. The little girl, also 7 at the time, was having difficulties learning to read. Her teacher told her mom to have her evaluated for dyslexia. I had met the little girl back home and she is very social, very verbose, and with excellent verbal comprehension. I wasn't there long enough to experience her reading comprehension.

[Pen]

32 minutes ago, Moved On said:

Apologies, I thought you were attempting to explain ?

And, yes, what you are describing is what I know. I did look into dyslexia a bit when I was asked to look into it for a family member back home. The little girl, also 7 at the time, was having difficulties learning to read. Her teacher told her mom to have her evaluated for dyslexia. I had met the little girl back home and she is very social, very verbose, and with excellent verbal comprehension. I wasn't there long enough to experience her reading comprehension.

 

@Moved On  I think I need to be very clear to whom I am replying. ?

[PeterPan]

I kind of missed it, but if Kookie did the Barton screening and her dc failed A or B but passed C, then Barton has a list of free things to do https://bartonreading.com/student-result/#sp  I imagine those things would also be fine to do if the dc failed A, B, and C. 

http://www.marooneyfoundation.org/professional-learning.aspx  This is the link to the free curriculum at the MA Rooney Foundation. If you click OG Training Manual, they take you to dropbox files with their OG manual and workbooks for K5 and 1+. I haven't looked through the K5, but probably some foundational stuff is in there.

https://www.scribd.com/document/37038604/RTI-Intervention-List-01-09-1  Here's a list with RTI ratings for each product in each category. I'd suggest you look for something listed as working at least for RTI2. Fwiw, LIPS is listed as RTI3. Recipe for Reading is RTI 1,2. It's not a statement of one being good or better, just saying for the most serious level of disability, where people need the most intensive or most flexible tool, that's your RTI3. Wilson (good stuff) has a general target population Fundations product that is RTI1/2 and then their more traditional intervention that is 2/3. So sometimes when people are saying something did or did not work, it was that they needed to move up the RTI level to get a product aimed at the level of disability they're dealing with. Or, as the doc said in the urgent care when I was coughing up blood, "Let's not mess around." 

LizB has said that the old manuals of LIPS are usable. I haven't seen them, but if they are and if you can pick one up for $25 like she did that's some serious kicking but level 3 intervention for $25.

You can do this. Don't be afraid. 

[Pen]

@4KookieKids

Have you read any books about dyslexia?

 I found Sally Shaywitz Overcoming Dyslexia  especially helpful. 

 

@anyone reading 

I don’t understand how the RTI TIERS relate to homeschool learning 

 

I hope this will link to an explanation of RTI at understood.com

[Guest]

45 minutes ago, Pen said:

@4KookieKids

Have you read any books about dyslexia?

 I found Sally Shaywitz Overcoming Dyslexia  especially helpful. 

 

@anyone reading 

I don’t understand how the RTI TIERS relate to homeschool learning 

 

I hope this will link to an explanation of RTI at understood.com

Pen, is this what you were trying to link?

https://www.understood.org/en/school-learning/special-services/rti/understanding-response-to-intervention

Your link loops back to this thread.

I can't answer your question, but hopefully I helped with the link ☺️

[Pen]

17 minutes ago, Moved On said:

Pen, is this what you were trying to link?

https://www.understood.org/en/school-learning/special-services/rti/understanding-response-to-intervention

Your link loops back to this thread.

I can't answer your question, but hopefully I helped with the link ☺️

 

So frustrating. I thought that would work. 

The general site you linked is correct, but the page had an explanation of the 3 tiers  IIRC more or less as follows greatly simplified:

The first tier is normal best practices reading instruction

The second tier is more personalized reading instruction  with small group attention 

the third is a lot more personal close attention with, if that does not work, then the student is determined to need SPED services  

 

Most homeschool students already have one on one teaching, which is 3rd tier  

 

It does not seem to address what program will best suit the student’s reasons to be struggling with reading and best remediate those problems. Rather, it addresses what program fits well for what number of students and speed of instruction  — or which,as with Language! can be used with a class with kids reading at a wide range of levels  at the same time  

 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

So frustrating. I thought that would work. 

http:// https://www.understood.org/en/image-viewer?image=%2f~%2fmedia%2f6a1f34ca2b684d03bf7c6504dcd8493a.png

 

Still looping. Did you try the link I put for you in my previous post? Is that the one you were trying to link?

[Storygirl]

10 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Yeah, we've had NILD mentioned before. Storygirl was looking at some schools that had NILD trained people. She ended up not going with them but going with a school that had more typical training. At least that's what I was remembering. 

The challenge is that Barton doesn't fit her pricepoint. It also doesn't answer if this dc2 has any language issues. Unfortunately, once ASD is on the table with a sibling, that has to be considered. Maybe there won't be, but there could be. In fact, if you believe Elleseff at that Smart Therapy blog, she thinks it's frankly uncommon to have dyslexia WITHOUT further language issues. That's why neuropsychs run language screening as part of their dyslexia evals and it's why the dyslexia schools have SLPs. For us, the ASD-related language issues made everything have a few more hoops to jump through. But that's just rabbit trails. 

Take it one step at a time. Start somewhere. Learn. Don't let anybody intimidate you. You'll be able to make this happen at a pricepoint you can afford. You'll find the time because you're amazing. You only have to step one step ahead of them, not 12. You've got this.

This is true! It's been a few years, so I don't remember all the details from the NILD program, but I decided it was not what we were looking for. We found an OG tutor and then enrolled DD13 in a dyslexia school.

OP, I haven't read every response, but I agree with those who say that OG is best for dyslexia (though some have used the Wilson method, it seems to be less available -- haven't heard of anyone around here who uses it). I know you don't want to offend your friend, but it seems she has given you an "out" since she said she's not sure your daughter is ready for NILD. SImply agree that you think she may be right, thank her for trying, and then go about  figuring out what you will do instead.

I know I'm making that last part sound easy. It can be hard to figure out how to help! But you can do it!

[Pen]

@Moved On

  

see my post above yours.  I was revising as you were replying.