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Interesting op-ed response to 8 DC private schools dropping APs.


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Thank you for posting that! I love this quote: "When administrators can trade on the cachet of their school’s reputation to help get their students into college, it’s really not that bold nor courageous to abandon a metric that can contribute to leveling the playing field.”

Right from the start, the cynic in me wondered whether their AP scores were not stellar enough to satisfy the parents who are shelling out $$$$ in tuition. 

 

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Disagree.

They're right. The experience of an AP class is usually not comparable to a college course and part of the reason is that AP students are prepping for a standardized test and college students are generally not. AP students are generally cramming a good bit. I can't believe this is even a super controversial position on this board.

Now, whether AP's have merit, why they dropped them, etc. That's another issue. I do think their announcement was disingenuous to say the least. But I refuse to believe that AP exams are some universal good that is challenging kids in schools in some great, positive way across the board, which is basically what this piece states. AP exams are a mixed bag - they democratize some aspects of "challenge" and make it easier for public schools to access it, which is great. But they also are increasingly ruling the curriculum at schools, pushing kids in ways that I don't think are always good, and many of them are about rote to some extent - you have to cover a lot and not delve into topics with the same depth. That's just true. AP exams are things like all of world history (well, since the Renaissance now, I guess) or all of psychology. Those are big topics. Schools like the schools in question offer classes in subtopics that do go into a lot more depth. Now, whether that's better or worse is a bit of a toss up... is it better to take "world history" or "wwII"? I'd argue there's a place for both. But as AP's take over more and more, they are edging out other options.

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  • 2 weeks later...

[I was in the hospital when this was posted so sorry for the late reply just saw it today]

Scarsdale High School is located in a very wealthy community and students from there can be just as snooty as the "boycott" private schools.
To even think that other low-funded public schools could match them in course offerings would be crazy.

The College Board provides the AP tests and guidelines for the material to cover. A public school could certainly create an AP class similar to a good college level entry course if the teacher and the students in the class are up to the task. It is a high stakes test and some cramming review during the last few weeks is fully expected. Most classes are over 30 weeks long. My sons Calculus AB certainly was good enough to replace the Calc 1 at his university. His Calculus BC class seemed a little light for Calc 2 so he is starting with that in college.

IMHO AP is currently the best national cost efffective standard for public schools and just needs to keep on improving. Maybe more outside peer review than just academic types they list at CB. Dual Enrollment is so hit and miss based on the college attended which tend to be CCs to make it them affordable.

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Are those elite schools really  "abandoning a metric that can contribute to leveling the playing field," though?  Aren't they just saying that they're dumping AP courses, ie, that their courses won't have the "AP" designation anymore?   I haven't see anything saying that they're advising their students not to take the AP exams. It's really the AP exam scores that provide the metric that levels the playing field. A good teacher doesn't have to follow some AP syllabus, approved by some outside agency like the CB, to prepare his students well for the AP exam.

"One of the co-signers was Bryan Garman, head of Sidwell Friends and one of the best U.S. history teachers I have ever seen. Our daughter Katie loved his course. He encouraged depth and analysis. The course was not labeled AP, but he prepared everyone to take the AP test."

I think these articles and the discussions they initiate fail to recognize the fact that it is not the "AP" course designation that provides a metric to level the playing field but the AP exam score that allows students to show they've mastered material at a certain level. It doesn't matter whether the student took an officially-approved "AP course."   This is helpful for us, as homeschoolers. Our students can self-study for an AP exam and earn a 4 or 5, putting the student in the same tier as a student from any brick-and-mortar school who did take an officially-approved AP course and scored a 4 or 5.

 

Edited by yvonne
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20 hours ago, yvonne said:

Are those elite schools really  "abandoning a metric that can contribute to leveling the playing field," though?  Aren't they just saying that they're dumping AP courses, ie, that their courses won't have the "AP" designation anymore?   I haven't see anything saying that they're advising their students not to take the AP exams. It's really the AP exam scores that provide the metric that levels the playing field. A good teacher doesn't have to follow some AP syllabus, approved by some outside agency like the CB, to prepare his students well for the AP exam.

"One of the co-signers was Bryan Garman, head of Sidwell Friends and one of the best U.S. history teachers I have ever seen. Our daughter Katie loved his course. He encouraged depth and analysis. The course was not labeled AP, but he prepared everyone to take the AP test."

I think these articles and the discussions they initiate fail to recognize the fact that it is not the "AP" course designation that provides a metric to level the playing field but the AP exam score that allows students to show they've mastered material at a certain level. It doesn't matter whether the student took an officially-approved "AP course."   This is helpful for us, as homeschoolers. Our students can self-study for an AP exam and earn a 4 or 5, putting the student in the same tier as a student from any brick-and-mortar school who did take an officially-approved AP course and scored a 4 or 5.

 

It depends on whether the elite schools will encourage or discourage their students to take the corresponding AP exam such Calculus AB. I think many of their humanities classes would not be general "survey" type classes such as APUSH. 

The public school mentioned, Scarsdale High, seemed to have the AP type content classes but were not AP designated in their catalog. I did not look at any of the private school catalogs.

I agree with your comment about AP exam versus AP designated course in these type articles. From what I understand, the AP designated course thing is a relatively new CB "feature".

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It seems like really different questions are being addressed here.

Like, should our homeschooled kids do AP exams? Are they useful for colleges in admissions? Are they useful for schools in creating a decent program? It seems obvious to me that the answer to that is mostly yes. We don't have to do them, but of course they're "nice" to have on paper for many homeschooled kids. And for public schools to prove that they're "doing enough." And for college admissions to help sort kids. Really, that last purpose strikes me as the primary one. And if you don't want to be sorted, maybe don't focus on them.

But are they the same as college classes? Are they always useful? Are they absolutely necessary, even for homeschoolers? Do they emphasize memorization over deeper thinking? Are there some big down sides to them? Well, those have more complex answers, I think - answers that aren't always in favor of the College Board/AP exams.

It's funny to me that the calculus exams are being discussed here. I would say they're potentially the exams that would be easiest for colleges to accept just because it's potentially the least subjective of the exams. Can you solve these types of math problems is potentially the most straightforward of the sorts of tasks on the AP exams. And unlike in many other subjects, there are fewer other elements of the course to worry about - no subjective essays, no question of labwork... Yet the fact that fewer and fewer colleges seem to give credit for even the calculus exams seems like pretty clear evidence that the whole system is slowly getting watered down and eroded. While AP exams once did represent courses that were at least a certain threshold of rigor, now they're just so totally opened up to the masses that they're slowly getting eroded.

As more and more 8th graders now take an algebra I course, I read about a study of whether or not that was doing any good for them. According to test scores, the overall performance of 8th graders on algebra I tests has been steadily declining, indicating that as more kids take the course, it's getting more watered down. I feel like the same thing is essentially happening to AP exams. And colleges are responding by making it harder and harder to get credit for them. But the more they become the standard, the more that they become a baseline. And the more that happens, the more the College Board and their standardized tests becomes the primary determiner of curriculum in this country. And I don't think that's some clear, universal good. Or that we, as homeschoolers - that private schools - necessarily have to go along with it.

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1 hour ago, Farrar said:

It seems like really different questions are being addressed here.

Like, should our homeschooled kids do AP exams? Are they useful for colleges in admissions? Are they useful for schools in creating a decent program? It seems obvious to me that the answer to that is mostly yes. We don't have to do them, but of course they're "nice" to have on paper for many homeschooled kids. And for public schools to prove that they're "doing enough." And for college admissions to help sort kids. Really, that last purpose strikes me as the primary one. And if you don't want to be sorted, maybe don't focus on them.

But are they the same as college classes? Are they always useful? Are they absolutely necessary, even for homeschoolers? Do they emphasize memorization over deeper thinking? Are there some big down sides to them? Well, those have more complex answers, I think - answers that aren't always in favor of the College Board/AP exams.

It's funny to me that the calculus exams are being discussed here. I would say they're potentially the exams that would be easiest for colleges to accept just because it's potentially the least subjective of the exams. Can you solve these types of math problems is potentially the most straightforward of the sorts of tasks on the AP exams. And unlike in many other subjects, there are fewer other elements of the course to worry about - no subjective essays, no question of labwork... Yet the fact that fewer and fewer colleges seem to give credit for even the calculus exams seems like pretty clear evidence that the whole system is slowly getting watered down and eroded. While AP exams once did represent courses that were at least a certain threshold of rigor, now they're just so totally opened up to the masses that they're slowly getting eroded.

As more and more 8th graders now take an algebra I course, I read about a study of whether or not that was doing any good for them. According to test scores, the overall performance of 8th graders on algebra I tests has been steadily declining, indicating that as more kids take the course, it's getting more watered down. I feel like the same thing is essentially happening to AP exams. And colleges are responding by making it harder and harder to get credit for them. But the more they become the standard, the more that they become a baseline. And the more that happens, the more the College Board and their standardized tests becomes the primary determiner of curriculum in this country. And I don't think that's some clear, universal good. Or that we, as homeschoolers - that private schools - necessarily have to go along with it.

Just curious which colleges have you encountered that are no longer giving credit for the AP Calculus exams?  

 

 

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3 hours ago, alewife said:

Just curious which colleges have you encountered that are no longer giving credit for the AP Calculus exams?  

 

 

Mostly just reflecting that more and more people seem to be saying here and elsewhere that their kids didn't do AP calc because a school didn't take it or because they had to redo it anyway - the university required it to be retaken even with a good score. It could be that's not actually a trend, it just feels that way.

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Should home schoolers or ANY student take an AP isn't really the question raised by the original post & linked article. That's completely up to every individual and nobody is in a position to generalize one way or another for all home schoolers or for any other student group.

The article linked also did not make any statements, I don't think, about if/how college credit for the AP exams had any bearing at all on the decision of the 8 schools to drop the AP label on courses. That's a different discussion, which seems mostly anecdotal so it may not be of much use. (Do more colleges give credit for certain AP exam scores than colleges that no longer do?)

The question in my mind is whether it matters that these elite schools are no longer going to jump the hoops to get the CB to approve their courses as "AP" courses, especially when it comes to basing the syllabus for their courses on whatever the CB deems worthy of an AP label. Personally, I'm glad to see schools dump the chasing of random outside approval of what they teach. Let them teach what they want, how they want. They seem to think they can teach to the same level or better without jumping the CB hoops. If parents think their kids will still get a great education, they'll keep paying for it. If the kids still want to take an AP exam and are still happy with their results, great. If not, that's fine, too. They'll still get a great education or the parents will push to revisit the decision. Get the CB out of the curriculum setting business.

4 hours ago, Farrar said:

While AP exams once did represent courses that were at least a certain threshold of rigor, now they're just so totally opened up to the masses that they're slowly getting eroded.

AP courses are "opened up to the masses." AP exams are also available to anyone who wants to take them. However, the AP exam scores still differentiate between students' levels of ability or mastery of the exam material. Whether or not colleges give credit for AP scores doesn't change the fact that the exams do allow for this differentiation.

It's true that AP exam scores are self-reported and that some students do not report them, just as students don't have to take or report SAT/ACT scores at some colleges now.  If a student takes an AP course and gets a 1 or a 2, is he likely to report it?  If a student takes an AP course and gets a 4 or 5, is that student likely to report it?   If I were an adcom, I'd assume that a student who didn't report scores did not earn a score worth reporting, unless, obviously, it was the student's senior year before exams had even been taken.

Students can get a GPA bump for taking an AP approved course, regardless of whether they get a 1 or a 5 or even take the exam at all. Taking an AP approved course does not "level the playing field" because not all AP courses/instructors are equally good and not all students taking AP approved courses are equally successful. The "AP" label on a course means nothing other than that the course's syllabus was approved by the CB. It doesn't mean the teacher taught effectively to that syllabus, or that the teacher even taught to the syllabus at all, or that the student taking the course had the slightest chance of actually mastering the material well enough to get a passing score on the exam. Just taking an AP approved course doesn't say anything about any given student. Only if the adcom is familiar with a given school can he make some assumptions about the quality of that particular school's AP courses. Maybe he can make some assumptions about a student taking the AP course. But assumptions are not a metric.

Because the AP exam is the same across the country, adcoms can still generalize about a student's academic ability based on the student's AP exam score. Students scoring 4/5 on the AP Calc exam or 4/5 on the English Lit exam are going to have a different level of preparedness and mastery of the material than students scoring 1/2 on those exams. They just are. One might not like it. One might argue that the exam isn't "fair" in some way or other. But, bottom line, the AP exam scores do show something about the student's level compared to other students taking the exam, regardless of whether the student took an official AP course approved by the CB. Thus, the AP exam score can serve as a metric to "level the playing field" while simply taking an AP approved course cannot.

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2 minutes ago, yvonne said:

AP courses are "opened up to the masses." AP exams are also available to anyone who wants to take them. However, the AP exam scores still differentiate between students' levels of ability or mastery of the exam material. Whether or not colleges give credit for AP scores doesn't change the fact that the exams do allow for this differentiation.

I get the distinction. They definitely allow for differentiation. But they've also been revised over the years (and many have been added). I'm not sold that some aren't a lesser bar than they used to be, even with differentiation in scores.

I agree with most your points generally.

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7 hours ago, Farrar said:

Mostly just reflecting that more and more people seem to be saying here and elsewhere that their kids didn't do AP calc because a school didn't take it or because they had to redo it anyway - the university required it to be retaken even with a good score. It could be that's not actually a trend, it just feels that way.

Thanks for the dialog.  I haven't investigated every college, obviously, and there seems to always be an exception to the rule, especially when we are talking about college practices.  That being said, I have not seen any evidence of a trend that colleges are requiring students to retake calculus, even with a good score.  I have seen a trend at the highly selective schools in not awarding college credit for AP exams, but I don't think we can conclude based on this trend that the AP Calc course does not adequately cover college-level calculus material or an AP exam score is no longer being recognized by colleges.

For example, Dartmouth stopped awarding credit for APs a few years ago.  I remember reading various posts when this happened that Dartmouth's action was proof that AP classes are not actually college level classes and instead are watered down versions of college classes.  However, Dartmouth never stopped recognizing AP exam scores, they just stopped awarding credit for graduation based on AP exam scores.  A student with a 5 on the AP Calc exam begins the math sequence at Dartmouth at a higher level, but he is no longer granted credit toward graduation based on this score -- he now just has the opportunity to take higher level math classes that will fulfill his graduation requirements.  Harvard has a similar, but less rigid, policy about awarding credit for graduation based on AP exam scores.  

Even the top tech schools base freshman placement on AP Calc exam scores, although at the one I am most familiar with, the  college will not let a student place out of introductory biology or chemistry, even with a 5 on the AP exam.  Only a 5 on both physics C exams will automatically grant placement out of the introductory physics.  However, these students can take department placement exams to place out of a course.  

 

Edited by alewife
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I personally don't think that much weight is given to AP scores. Most schools where you would expect the majority of applicants to have taken multiple APs require students to submit subject test scores. The subject test scores are required or strongly recommended to be submitted. No wording to that effect exists for AP scores. I have never seen a college's website strongly recommend the submission of AP scores. A few schools require self-reporting of AP scores. For those schools, they might carry more weight, but it is far from a standard policy applying across most schools. 

I just googled and apparently I am not alone in my view. https://www.collegexpress.com/articles-and-advice/test-prep/blog/icymi-ap-scores-dont-matter-college-admission/

https://blog.prepscholar.com/do-colleges-look-at-ap-scores-for-admission (their wording emphasizes "very selective schools" as where reporting test scores matters.)

https://www.veritasprep.com/blog/2015/03/do-ap-scores-really-matter-when-it-comes-to-college-admission/ (love this one. Emphasizes taking the test and then says don't worry, a 2 doesn't matter bc it won't impact admissions. ? )

Our experience during the college app process is that the lack of APs and AP test scores has not negatively impacted our kids' admission process. So, while many homeschoolers with APs confirm that their kids were accepted and they had multiple AP scores validating their homeschool transcript, I can only share that my kids' lack of APs has not negatively impacted their acceptances or their eligibility for scholarships. What parents and students should do is understand the application process at the schools their kids will be applying to since the application process is far from uniform across the spectrum of different colleges.

Edited by 8FillTheHeart
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6 hours ago, Farrar said:

I get the distinction. They definitely allow for differentiation. But they've also been revised over the years (and many have been added). I'm not sold that some aren't a lesser bar than they used to be, even with differentiation in scores.

I agree with most your points generally.

I agree.  Imo, replacing the year-long AP Physics B course with two separate year-long courses, AP Physics I and AP Physics 2 is a good example of a revised course that now has been watered down.  

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2 hours ago, alewife said:

I agree.  Imo, replacing the year-long AP Physics B course with two separate year-long courses, AP Physics I and AP Physics 2 is a good example of a revised course that now has been watered down.  

I will disagree in the use of the term "watered-down".  My DS took both parts, 1 at his B&M charter and 2 at UC Scout online via his B&M charter. Yes they force you to take two classes to cover similar content ( I believe that 1 & 2 cover a little more material than B but the approach is less plug n chug) because it seems the CB's newer philosophy for math and science classes is to cover one college semester over the course of one high school year.  As a STEM major in college DS did not take either AP exam since no credit or advancement would happen.

Will they apply this philosophy to AP Physics C in the future?   Many high schools and online courses cover AP Physics C over one complete high school year. I think this is best for all but the really smart and motivated students.  His best friend took DE math through the local CC which is a pretty good school but his Calc 2 and 3 were "watered down" versus most flag-ship state Unis per his father.

DS' B&M charter dumped C because not enough students signed up for it. They now offer these through UC Scout since I gently harassed them into adopting UC Scout APs for ones they don't offer. If only UC Scout would improve their courses year to year (they seemed to ignore any small improvements we suggested to them oh well).

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10 hours ago, yvonne said:

 

AP courses are "opened up to the masses." AP exams are also available to anyone who wants to take them. However, the AP exam scores still differentiate between students' levels of ability or mastery of the exam material. Whether or not colleges give credit for AP scores doesn't change the fact that the exams do allow for this differentiation.

This is a bad trend and not all schools follow this - for example they use honor courses as pre-reqs.   Not everyone makes the varsity basketball - we all have are gifts.

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3 hours ago, alewife said:

For example, Dartmouth stopped awarding credit for APs a few years ago.  I remember reading various posts when this happened that Dartmouth's action was proof that AP classes are not actually college level classes and instead are watered down versions of college classes.  However, Dartmouth never stopped recognizing AP exam scores, they just stopped awarding credit for graduation based on AP exam scores.  A student with a 5 on the AP Calc exam begins the math sequence at Dartmouth at a higher level, but he is no longer granted credit toward graduation based on this score -- he now just has the opportunity to take higher level math classes that will fulfill his graduation requirements.  Harvard has a similar, but less rigid, policy about awarding credit for graduation based on AP exam scores.

good point and I have no issue with Dartmouth's approach to AP 

see for details:

https://math.dartmouth.edu/undergraduate/first-year-students/ap-info/

https://math.dartmouth.edu/undergraduate/first-year-students/suggested-courses/

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17 minutes ago, MarkT said:

I will disagree in the use of the term "watered-down".  My DS took both parts, 1 at his B&M charter and 2 at UC Scout online via his B&M charter. Yes they force you to take two classes to cover similar content ( I believe that 1 & 2 cover a little more material than B but the approach is less plug n chug) because it seems the CB's newer philosophy for math and science classes is to cover one college semester over the course of one high school year.  As a STEM major in college DS did not take either AP exam since no credit or advancement would happen.

Will they apply this philosophy to AP Physics C in the future?   Many high schools and online courses cover AP Physics C over one complete high school year. I think this is best for all but the really smart and motivated students.  His best friend took DE math through the local CC which is a pretty good school but his Calc 2 and 3 were "watered down" versus most flag-ship state Unis per his father.

DS' B&M charter dumped C because not enough students signed up for it. They now offer these through UC Scout since I gently harassed them into adopting UC Scout APs for ones they don't offer. If only UC Scout would improve their courses year to year (they seemed to ignore any small improvements we suggested to them oh well).

I agree that the term "watered-down" may not fit in your son's situation.  However, the kids in my area local schools don't have the option to take both AP Physics I and Physics II courses because AP Physics B was replaced with AP Physics I and the schools don't offer the AP Physics II course.   At least locally, since AP Physics B was replaced with only the AP Physics I option, I do think the term "watered-down" fits.  I don't know whether your son's situation or the kids' situation in my neck of the woods is more of the norm nationally, though.  Either way, the pacing of the course(s) material covered was increased from 1 year to 2 years.  

Physics C has been broken down into two courses since I have been paying attention.  The schools in my area don't offer either of the Physics C courses, though.  At the school I am familiar with, (again, a small sample size), physics credit is only given if a student scores a 5 on both AP Physics C exams.  At these schools, no credit is given for the non-calc versions of the AP Physics classes, which include AP Physics B and AP Physics I and II.

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15 hours ago, alewife said:

Just curious which colleges have you encountered that are no longer giving credit for the AP Calculus exams?  

 

 

 

I think most do. I know Caltech doesn’t, but they are hardly representative. And you can still take a placement test amdmplace out.

 

Same here with AP Physics. One local school onlyboffers honors physics with conceptual textbook. Another one only offers physics 1. I don’t know about private schools, but no public school in our vicinity offers Physics C.

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1 hour ago, Roadrunner said:

 

I think most do. I know Caltech doesn’t, but they are hardly representative. And you can still take a placement test amdmplace out.

 

Same here with AP Physics. One local school onlyboffers honors physics with conceptual textbook. Another one only offers physics 1. I don’t know about private schools, but no public school in our vicinity offers Physics C.

I agree. But Caltech doesn't offer credit for AP calculus because it requires its applicants to have taken calculus in high school.    The freshman math sequence at Caltech does not begin with the material covered in AP Calc BC - it begins with Calc III, multivariable calculus, the next course after BC Calculus, so it makes sense that credit would not be awarded for a course that Caltech considers a pre-req for acceptance into the school.

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15 minutes ago, alewife said:

I agree. But Caltech doesn't offer credit for AP calculus because it requires its applicants to have taken calculus in high school.    The freshman math sequence at Caltech does not begin with the material covered in AP Calc BC - it begins with Calc III, multivariable calculus, the next course after BC Calculus, so it makes sense that credit would not be awarded for a course that Caltech considers a pre-req for acceptance into the school.

 

I didn’t realize that. I thought they had them retake it with a more theoretical bent as opposed to plug and chug school approach.

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26 minutes ago, alewife said:

I agree. But Caltech doesn't offer credit for AP calculus because it requires its applicants to have taken calculus in high school.    The freshman math sequence at Caltech does not begin with the material covered in AP Calc BC - it begins with Calc III, multivariable calculus, the next course after BC Calculus, so it makes sense that credit would not be awarded for a course that Caltech considers a pre-req for acceptance into the school.

 

9 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I didn’t realize that. I thought they had them retake it with a more theoretical bent as opposed to plug and chug school approach.

This got me interested, so I went to check on Caltech's website. Looks like they are still using Apostol's classic text for the required freshman math sequence. So, they will cover differential and integral calculus, linear algebra, and multivariable calc in their first three quarters. That will be nothing like traditional calculus, though! Apostol digs deep into theory...more like an intro real analysis. Dd took a similar sequence at Stanford, and it was killer...no plug and chug whatsoever.

Edited by Kathy in Richmond
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16 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

 

I didn’t realize that. I thought they had them retake it with a more theoretical bent as opposed to plug and chug school approach.

Here is the info from Caltech's website.  If you follow the embedded link, it states their freshman math program.

Academic Preparation Requirements

You must have either completed the following courses or be enrolled in them at the time of your application. Students who have not completed these courses will not be properly prepared for Caltech's core curriculum.

  • 4 years of math (including calculus)
  • 1 year of physics
  • 1 year of chemistry
  • 3 years of English (4 years recommended)
  • 1 year of U.S. history/government (waived for students in schools outside the U.S.)
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1 hour ago, alewife said:

Here is the info from Caltech's website.  If you follow the embedded link, it states their freshman math program.

Academic Preparation Requirements

You must have either completed the following courses or be enrolled in them at the time of your application. Students who have not completed these courses will not be properly prepared for Caltech's core curriculum.

  • 4 years of math (including calculus)
  • 1 year of physics
  • 1 year of chemistry
  • 3 years of English (4 years recommended)
  • 1 year of U.S. history/government (waived for students in schools outside the U.S.)

I know that. I just assumed they were doing a second round in Calculus at a deeper level. It looks like I am only half right.

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1 hour ago, Kathy in Richmond said:

 

This got me interested, so I went to check on Caltech's website. Looks like they are still using Apostol's classic text for the required freshman math sequence. So, they will cover differential and integral calculus, linear algebra, and multivariable calc in their first three quarters. That will be nothing like traditional calculus, though! Apostol digs deep into theory...more like an intro real analysis. Dd took a similar sequence at Stanford, and it was killer...no plug and chug whatsoever.

 

So where would you take kids adter AOPS Calculus? Do you think upper level math at CC is worth it? Or should we just hire a tutor and continue that way? My kid wants to major in theoretical physics.

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Both of my kids continued with math at home with me for the last two years of high school.

They both worked through Marsden & Tromba's Vector Calculus.

Ds also used the Apostol texts mentioned above for linear algebra, and whatever textbook MIT was using at that time for differential equations. He supplemented with AoPS olympiad geometry and WOOT.

Dd worked through Linear Algebra Done Right, Differential Equations by Simmons, AoPS olympiad geometry, and Stanford online college number theory. Both continued to participate in math competitions and camps, too.

Around here, the CC classes would have been too plug and chug for us.

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5 hours ago, MarkT said:

This is a bad trend and not all schools follow this - for example they use honor courses as pre-reqs.   Not everyone makes the varsity basketball - we all have are gifts.

 

I agree that we all have our gifts.

What is the bad trend?  I don't think I understand the point you're making?

 

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2 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

So where would you take kids adter AOPS Calculus? Do you think upper level math at CC is worth it? Or should we just hire a tutor and continue that way? My kid wants to major in theoretical physics.

My ds just DE at our local universities, neither one top ranked school.  (One is currently ranked 170s and the other is RNP.)  Both of those were still fine in preparing him to major in physics and pursue theoretical physics in grad school.  Math at that level was definitely not doable at home for us.  Additionally, his credits were accepted at his university.  (FWIW, even GA Tech approved his credits for direct equivalent transfer.)

Edited by 8FillTheHeart
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2 hours ago, yvonne said:

 

I agree that we all have our gifts.

What is the bad trend?  I don't think I understand the point you're making?

 

public schools pushing students into AP classes that are over their head etc - it will bring that class down some levels because the teachers will be forced to dumb it down

this is leading to lots of 1s scored on AP tests 

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4 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

 

So where would you take kids adter AOPS Calculus? Do you think upper level math at CC is worth it? Or should we just hire a tutor and continue that way? My kid wants to major in theoretical physics.

my son's best friend is wrapping up a challenging theoretical physics class at Harvard summer school - PM me if you want more details 

taking sophomore level math classes at CC is probably fine - if your student wanted to be a math major then NO

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As a humanities person, it's harder for me to evaluate the science and math exams beyond just the basics of knowing that they have changed the configuration, such as for physics. But I can absolutely see differences in the social studies and English exams over time. Particularly when I look at AP European - which I took as a student, taught briefly in the classroom, and have followed since they revised it - it now requires less memorization and more "critical thinking." But is that good? Honestly, with the memorization at least it represented that a student with a higher score had mastered a certain body of information. Now there's a lot more about gaming the test, at least as I see it. It's a double edged sword. On the one hand, we don't want to emphasize memorization - we want kids to do something with that information. On the other hand, those things are much harder to quantify on standardized tests and tend to lead to more test prep over actual engagement with the material. And there's still a fair bit of memorization. So now it's a mix of rote learning and test prep. And there's still high level stuff there... but I don't think kids coming out with 5's on the APEH are more prepared for college history than 20 years ago. And I think they might be less.

In a college class, kids can focus more on engaging with the material - at least if the professors do a good job. In a high school class, they have to focus on the test prep.

The article in the OP basically says these courses are just as good as college courses, no question. I don't buy it. And it essentially touts the wider use of them. Except, as they get used more widely, they're becoming the baseline. And as that happens, you have more and more students who probably shouldn't be taking them. Except they have to in order to be on an honors track or get into a decent college. It's a keeping up with the Joneses thing.

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3 hours ago, Farrar said:

.The article in the OP basically says these courses are just as good as college courses, no question. I don't buy it. 

 Are we talking about the classes offered at the elite privates not being "college-level"? I guess then we are discussing what we mean by college-level. As another humanities person, I will say again that one can graduate with a major in French at my local 4 year Uni and become a French teacher, and have taken less French classes that are available to one of these kids graduating from high school at one of these schools....

ETA that my acquaintance that went to one of these schools self-studied for a couple of APs after taking her non-AP class at school, and then her extremely selective liberal arts college administered their own placement test  and permitted her enrollment in more advanced classes. I guess that process was triggered by the AP score.

Edited by madteaparty
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Just now, madteaparty said:

 Are we talking about the classes offered at the elite privates not being "college-level"? I guess then we are discussing what we mean by college-level. As another humanities person, I will say again that one can graduate with a major in French at my local 4 year Uni and become a French teacher, and have taken less French classes that are available to one of these kids graduating from high school at one of these schools....

I meant the AP courses. I think it depends when it comes to the sorts of courses being offered at some of these elite private schools, though I think the structure of them - at least in the humanities - does often tend to be much more like the sort of courses you'd see at a private LAC.

That's sad about the French. Good grief.

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11 hours ago, Farrar said:

As a humanities person, it's harder for me to evaluate the science and math exams beyond just the basics of knowing that they have changed the configuration, such as for physics. But I can absolutely see differences in the social studies and English exams over time. Particularly when I look at AP European - which I took as a student, taught briefly in the classroom, and have followed since they revised it - it now requires less memorization and more "critical thinking." But is that good? Honestly, with the memorization at least it represented that a student with a higher score had mastered a certain body of information. Now there's a lot more about gaming the test, at least as I see it. It's a double edged sword. On the one hand, we don't want to emphasize memorization - we want kids to do something with that information. On the other hand, those things are much harder to quantify on standardized tests and tend to lead to more test prep over actual engagement with the material. And there's still a fair bit of memorization. So now it's a mix of rote learning and test prep. And there's still high level stuff there... but I don't think kids coming out with 5's on the APEH are more prepared for college history than 20 years ago. And I think they might be le

I'm a STEM person (who loves history) but it seems that critical thinking over memorization is what is desired. When I see blogs against AP it usually boils down to that. What "gaming" - yes review books probably give general tips but in the end the essay prompt on a history AP exam could be any covered topic.

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7 hours ago, madteaparty said:

 Are we talking about the classes offered at the elite privates not being "college-level"? I guess then we are discussing what we mean by college-level. As another humanities person, I will say again that one can graduate with a major in French at my local 4 year Uni and become a French teacher, and have taken less French classes that are available to one of these kids graduating from high school at one of these schools....

ETA that my acquaintance that went to one of these schools self-studied for a couple of APs after taking her non-AP class at school, and then her extremely selective liberal arts college administered their own placement test  and permitted her enrollment in more advanced classes. I guess that process was triggered by the AP score.

As homeschoolers we also have the opportunity to make the part I italicized true. We don't have to teach to the AP content and go to whatever level our student is capable of achieving.

In terms of the ETA, I think it is true at most universities. I did it back in the 80s. I was sick during APs week. I went to the depts on campus and talked to them. They let me take the final exams in the courses. Making a C or higher on the exam gave me credit.  That same sort of policy or something similar exists at most schools.  If not for credit, they will typically let students do it for placement. (Dd did something similar for Russian. She placed into 400 level Russian.)

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