FYI: Study finds popular 'growth mindset' educational interventions aren't very effective (May 22, 2018 - Science Daily)

[Guest]

This is just an fyi for anyone interested.

- Study finds popular 'growth mindset' educational interventions aren't very effective

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180522114523.htm

[4KookieKids]

Interesting.

[KathyBC]

I hate it when a perfectly reasonable, common sense theory becomes popular. Suddenly, it becomes shallow and commercialized.
Really, a growth mindset in the bigger picture of life is a game changer and one which could benefit everyone.
Telling a struggling math student that they can improve their algebra grades if they just put effort into improving their intelligence is not in the same category.

[Heathermomster]

I confess that I don't understand the growth mindset at all. 

[KathyBC]

Heathermomster, if I understand it correctly, it is similar to the way in which a person may improve their IQ score over their lifetime.

https://www.edglossary.org/growth-mindset/

Quotes from the link:

Quote

A mindset, according to Dweck, is a self-perception or “self-theory” that people hold about themselves. Believing that you are either “intelligent” or “unintelligent” is a simple example of a mindset. People may also have a mindset related their personal or professional lives—“I’m a good teacher” or “I’m a bad parent,” for example.
According to Dweck, “In a fixed mindset, people believe their basic qualities, like their intelligence or talent, are simply fixed traits. They spend their time documenting their intelligence or talent instead of developing them. They also believe that talent alone creates success—without effort.” 
Alternatively, “In a growth mindset, people believe that their most basic abilities can be developed through dedication and hard work—brains and talent are just the starting point. This view creates a love of learning and a resilience that is essential for great accomplishment,” writes Dweck.

 

ETA: And I'm pretty certain every single person on this board has a growth mindset.

Edited September 13, 2018 by KathyBC

[forty-two]

2 hours ago, KathyBC said:

I hate it when a perfectly reasonable, common sense theory becomes popular. Suddenly, it becomes shallow and commercialized.
Really, a growth mindset in the bigger picture of life is a game changer and one which could benefit everyone.
Telling a struggling math student that they can improve their algebra grades if they just put effort into improving their intelligence is not in the same category.

I think a lot of human-centric things just don't scale up well.  You can't reduce or eliminate the personal relationships, the need for human judgment, without eliminating some of the necessary intangibles.  And the quest to do so - to try to turn a perfectly good rule of thumb (that needs an actual person to judge when and how to apply it) into a scientific law that allows us to apply the insight to people en masse (without having to actually *know* the people we are "teaching") - just destroys most of what was good in the theory in the first place.  Because people aren't widgets.

1 hour ago, Heathermomster said:

I confess that I don't understand the growth mindset at all. 

Reading "Mindset" was a game-changer for me, so I'll take a stab at it.  Carol Dweck talks about two different, and opposed, mindsets: a fixed mindset, and a growth mindset.  A fixed mindset believes that what we can and can't do is largely set in stone.  Success at something is proof that we are the kind of person who can succeed at that, while failure at something is proof that we aren't the kind of person who can succeed at that.  Failure doesn't just mean that we can't do it *now* - it means that we can't do it *ever*.  Failure uncovers an inherent lack that is unchangeable.  If we can't do it *now*, that is proof that we are the kind of person who just can't do it, full stop. 

On the other hand, a growth mindset believes that we can always become better at something than we are right now.  Failure only means that we can't do it *right now* - we can still work and chase future success, because we always can improve.  Failure now is only failure now, not proof that *we* are inherently failures.  A growth mindset frees you to assess your failures with a clear eye, because today's failure is just today's failure, not a sign that *you* are a failure at this.  And it frees you to risk failure, to see failure as a part of learning something, instead of proof that you *can't* learn it.  It allows you to combine optimism with realism - to realistically assess current problems without those problems *requiring* you to give up at ever achieving success.

People can have a mix of growth and fixed mindsets, depending on the issue.  I did.  My parents instilled a growth mindset in me wrt hard work being the most important thing - doing the best I could with what I had was what mattered, not how much I had in the first place.  But I managed to develop a fixed mindset in school when it came to intelligence and grades.  I definitely had some covert assumptions about how low achievement (on my part) would "prove" the limitations of my intelligence.  And I know I see it a lot with my kids - they hit something hard, and they wail and moan that they can't ever do it.  They assume that today's failure proves their inherent inability.  The language of growth and fixed mindset really helped give me the words and concepts to address it.  I'm always saying that, yes, it's true that they can't do it right now - but we're going to keep working and trying so that they can *learn* how to do it over time. 

Does that help any?

Edited September 13, 2018 by forty-two

[Guest]

I tend to avoid sharing my own thoughts, allowing others to form their own opinions instead. So, here's another article that was written a year prior to the study linked above. It also explains the theory.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/tomchivers/what-is-your-mindset?utm_term=.ypneY2XG0#.wbRY2lkeM

[geodob]

Here's a direct quote from the study:

"Abstract:

Mind-sets (aka implicit theories) are beliefs about the nature of human attributes (e.g., intelligence). The theory holds that individuals with growth mind-sets (beliefs that attributes are malleable with effort) enjoy many positive outcomes—including higher academic achievement—while their peers who have fixed mind-sets experience negative outcomes. Given this relationship, interventions designed to increase students’ growth mind-sets—thereby increasing their academic achievement—have been implemented in schools around the world. In our first meta-analysis (k = 273, N = 365,915), we examined the strength of the relationship between mind-set and academic achievement and potential moderating factors. In our second meta-analysis (k = 43, N = 57,155), we examined the effectiveness of mind-set interventions on academic achievement and potential moderating factors. Overall effects were weak for both meta-analyses. However, some results supported specific tenets of the theory, namely, that students with low socioeconomic status or who are academically at risk might benefit from mind-set interventions."

It is very relevant to students with learning disorders.  Where they will often come to a conclusion, and state 'I am stupid'.

 

[Pen]

I’m not sure what a growth mind-set intervention is. 

It seems like more precise information on exactly what is being done that is being evaluated would be helpful.  Do they mean a computer program? Or a week of discussion modules? Or?

 

It is clear to me that some growth mindset interventions —though probably not what the study was analyzing— are extremely effective. Sometimes just a few words from a teacher to a student telling him her that doing _______ might be something he she would be good at suddenly turns a kid around.  Programs like Jaime Escalante’s calculus can stimulate a growth mindset. 

 

Toward the other end of the spectrum of mindsets, it seems pretty clear that a hopelessness mindset tends to be self-defeating. 

 

[Pen]

4 hours ago, geodob said:

 

It is very relevant to students with learning disorders.  Where they will often come to a conclusion, and state 'I am stupid'.

 

This.

But it might be hard to do a good study irl. I can imagine that even if, for example, in my son’s case he had been lectured to about mindset or been doing some computer based “intervention” at the same time that as a 5yo he was at the “stupid” kids table in school as a nonreader (it wasn’t called that officially), or when he still could not read at age 9, it would not be enough to undo the sense of “I am stupid.”  

 

[Guest]

Here's a direct quote from the article linked in my first post derived by the latest study that tested the effects or lack there of of the growth mindset theory:

Quote

"In the second meta-analysis, which included a sample of 57,155 participants, we found that the overall effect of growth mindset interventions on academic achievement is small," Burgoyne said. "Although our results do support claims that economically disadvantaged students or students at high risk of failing may benefit from growth mindset interventions, importantly, only a few studies contributed to those analyses, so they must be interpreted with caution."

According to mindset theory, developed by Carol Dweck, a psychology professor at Stanford University, students with growth mindsets tend to demonstrate more adaptive behaviors and psychological traits, such as resilience in response to failure, which in turn leads to greater academic achievement.

By contrast, people with fixed mindsets believe that traits can't be improved with effort. The theory suggests that as a consequence, students with fixed mindsets are more likely to avoid difficult tasks and assume that failure is due to a lack of ability, resulting in worse academic performance.

"The popularity of growth mindset interventions is based on claims that we show, in part, are not supported by the available evidence," said Brooke Macnamara, an assistant professor of psychological sciences at Case Western Reserve University. "It's not the case that most students benefit academically from being taught growth mindsets. Yet, the impression given by commercial growth mindset programs sold to parents and schools is that they will."

According to the researchers, a number of the studies investigating the effectiveness of growth mindset interventions did not follow best practices for experimental research. For example, more than one-third of studies didn't check whether the programs actually influenced students' mindsets. Of those that did, nearly half failed that check, indicating that the programs didn't successfully alter mindsets.

On average, academic achievement increased when the growth mindset programs failed to change students' mindsets and didn't increase when the growth mindset programs worked.

This implies the presence of something other than mindset causing these effects, Macnamara said.

"The evidence for growth mindset interventions improving academic achievement is not strong," Macnamara said. "Future studies should focus on using the highest standard of research practices to test whether mindset interventions can consistently benefit any group of students and whether the benefit is substantial."

 

Quote from the article in my second post, written about a year prior to the study mentioned in my first post.

Quote

Bates told BuzzFeed News that he has been trying to replicate Dweck’s findings in that key mindset study for several years. “We’re running a third study in China now,” he said. “With 200 12-year-olds. And the results are just null.

“People with a growth mindset don’t cope any better with failure. If we give them the mindset intervention, it doesn’t make them behave better. Kids with the growth mindset aren’t getting better grades, either before or after our intervention study.”

Dweck told BuzzFeed News that attempts to replicate can fail because the scientists haven’t created the right conditions. “Not anyone can do a replication,” she said. “We put so much thought into creating an environment; we spend hours and days on each question, on creating a context in which the phenomenon could plausibly emerge.

“Replication is very important, but they have to be genuine replications and thoughtful replications done by skilled people. Very few studies will replicate done by an amateur in a willy-nilly way.”

Nick Brown, a PhD student in psychology at the University of Groningen in the Netherlands, is sceptical of this: “The question I have is: If your effect is so fragile that it can only be reproduced [under strictly controlled conditions], then why do you think it can be reproduced by schoolteachers?”

 

Edited September 14, 2018 by Guest

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Moved On said:

 

Here's a direct quote from the article linked in my first post derived by the latest study that tested the effects or lack there of of the growth mindset theory:

 

 

I don’t think it was a test of the theory.  

It seems to have been a test of commercial programs.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Pen

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I don’t think it was a test of the theory.  

It seems to have been a test of commercial programs.

Do the programs created by the founder and her team not reflect the theories? I fail to see your point!

[Pen]

I appreciate your post because I did at one point wonder if a commercial program might be helpful. And I think the likely answer from the study is it would not be. 

 

OTOH, I have found that working on promoting an actual growth mindset irl is  helpful.   

For an example :   

Praising effort, a basic Dweck tenet, has been helpful. 

Edited September 14, 2018 by Pen

[Guest]

On 9/14/2018 at 11:35 AM, Pen said:

OTOH, I have found that working on promoting an actual growth mindset irl is  helpful.   

For an example :   

Praising for effort, a basic Dweck tenet, has been helpful. 

Pen, she only made it popular. There are educators before her that used it and I am sure I can find it from sources in psychology as well. Here's one that lived among the impoverished in order to inspire them to greatness. From Marva Colins website as quoted from her book Ordinary Children, Extraordinary Teachers pg. 51, publication date 1992 (I own a copy of her book):

Quote

Praise your child for the good efforts and positively point out the negatives by saying, ‘I think you can do this better, don’t you?’ 

Found here:

http://www.edocere.org/articles/marva_collins.htm

Her biography:

https://www.encyclopedia.com/people/social-sciences-and-law/education-biographies/marva-collins

 

Edited September 16, 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

Actually, the excerpts from the Marva Collins website are from her two books, Ordinary Children, Extraordinary Teachers and Marva Collins Way. I own both and they have been a source of great inspiration for me in how I approach things with my boys. They are currently on my list to reread.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Guest

[Pen]

I was also inspired by Marva Collins and almost included her name above where I mention Jaime Escalante. 

Both to me are examples showing that Growth mindset does work  

[Pen]

But, as well, maybe both are examples that a superior teacher can help achieve it... but that it doesn’t necessarily get successfully replicated by others or maintained when that teacher retires. 

And it may indeed be the same for an experiment— that much as we want scientific experiments to be repeatable by any researcher who tried it, perhaps other researchers don’t get the same results as the original Columbia University got, much as after Escalante retired subsequent teachers could not replicate what he did. 

[Guest]

32 minutes ago, Pen said:

But, as well, maybe both are examples that a superior teacher can help achieve it... but that it doesn’t necessarily get successfully replicated by others or maintained when that teacher retires. 

And it may indeed be the same for an experiment— that much as we want scientific experiments to be repeatable by any researcher who tried it, perhaps other researchers don’t get the same results as the original Columbia University got, much as after Escalante retired subsequent teachers could not replicate what he did. 

I have not looked into Escalante but for me and just like the recent study showed, the results are just not there. If they cannot be replicated in a study how can they be replicated by a teacher who has 25-30 or more students to focus on? Dweck's words:

Quote

She worries in one article that teachers often “take their existing beliefs and practices” about teaching children to be hard-working and open-minded, and “re-label them ‘growth mindset’”. In contrast, she recommends specific exercises like “sitting down with students who are stuck and saying: ‘Show me what you’ve done – let’s figure out how you’re thinking and what you can try next,’” and “Giving students meaningful problems (rather than rote memorisation of facts and procedures).”

I don't like commenting because I feel people can use whatever they feel inspires them and their kids, I'm just here to share what the studies are showing so that people can make informed decisions. But, I will say that it is rather sad putting it on the overworked teachers who do not make what she makes per engagement or from her books. 

I don't have the time to pursue this discussion any further. I have shared the facts. We can all choose what works best for us.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

I was also inspired by Marva Collins and almost included her name above where I mention Jaime Escalante. 

Both to me are examples showing that Growth mindset does work  

Also, here you are doing exactly what Dweck herself complained about, which is to attach the Growth Mindset brand (because it is a brand at this point) to every inspirational comment made by other educators. Marva Collins died in 2015 and she never attached her way of teaching to the Growth Mindset buzzword. Dweck herself states that her methodology is very specific and complains about how broad it has now been made.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Guest

[Pen]

Nm

Edited September 14, 2018 by Pen
Double post

[Pen]

I thought I was talking about the theory as distinct from the commercial products. 

 

I am not even sure we are disagreeing in substance so much as in our use of language or perhaps in our own mindset ways of thinking. 

[Guest]

I have not read her books to form an opinions about her theories. Too many people are just taking the general idea and over-generalizing it. I can take you through a case of a student with anxiety and we could see together how this generalization can have negative effects in such a case, but that's OK. There's really no point in it!

And, I don't label my mindset, I just broaden it through knowledge acquisition.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Guest

[KathyBC]

I like that a common sense theory has a name and some attention. The attempt to commercialize and profit from it is disappointing but not surprising. I think most posters here can clearly take the wheat from a book and discard the chaff. We've all watched the education system fads come and go, not much we can do about it.

[Guest]

Has anyone actually read her books LOL? I would really be interested to know. Most people these days just follow the herd effect. I previewed her books enough to determine that I wasn't interested and I have followed the research.

[KathyBC]

Forty-two posted that she did. I did. If the search function for the board is working, the book has been discussed here before, so presumably many others have, too.

This is an education forum. Books about education will likely be read and discussed, not sure I would call that following the herd.

Edited September 14, 2018 by KathyBC

[Pen]

17 minutes ago, Moved On said:

Has anyone actually read her books LOL? I would really be interested to know. Most people these days just follow the herd effect. I previewed her books enough to determine that I wasn't interested and I have followed the research.

 

If you mean Mindset by Dweck, yes, I read it and gained a great deal from doing so. At least as much as, and probably a great deal more than from Marva Collins books which I also read. 

Edited September 14, 2018 by Pen

[Guest]

We all follow what works for us and agrees with our mentality. Branding people's mindsets is not one that inspires me.

[Pen]

On 9/13/2018 at 11:17 AM, forty-two said:

I think a lot of human-centric things just don't scale up well.  You can't reduce or eliminate the personal relationships, the need for human judgment, without eliminating some of the necessary intangibles. 

I think that’s an important point. 

Quote

 

Reading "Mindset" was a game-changer for me, so I'll take a stab at it.  Carol Dweck talks about two different, and opposed, mindsets: a fixed mindset, and a growth mindset.  A fixed mindset believes that what we can and can't do is largely set in stone.  Success at something is proof that w

 

I was raised with fixed mindset ideas.  So for me, Carol Dweck’s ideas were extremely important as a beginning toward overcoming that. 

Quote

And I know I see it a lot with my kids - they hit something hard, and they wail and moan that they can't ever do it.  They assume that today's failure proves their inherent inability.  The language of growth and fixed mindset really helped give me the words and concepts to address it.  I'm always saying that, yes, it's true that they can't do it right now - but we're going to keep working and trying so that they can *learn* how to do it over time. 

 

Similar here. 

[EKS]

The problem with the whole growth mindset thing is that anyone who has lived in the world knows that there is a limit to how much "growth" is possible.  It is disingenuous to claim that anyone can do anything if they put in the effort.  Differences in ability are real, and they can be profound.

[Pen]

48 minutes ago, EKS said:

The problem with the whole growth mindset thing is that anyone who has lived in the world knows that there is a limit to how much "growth" is possible.  It is disingenuous to claim that anyone can do anything if they put in the effort.  Differences in ability are real, and they can be profound.

 

Is this coming from a background of having carefully read Mindset?

your statement seems like a straw man argument to me  .  

 

[EKS]

22 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Is this coming from a background of having carefully read Mindset?

your statement seems like a straw man argument to me  .  

 

I have not read Mindset, and I am not talking about its specific claims, though I did study Dweck's ideas in graduate school.  I am responding to how her ideas have been perceived in the wider world.

[4KookieKids]

3 hours ago, EKS said:

The problem with the whole growth mindset thing is that anyone who has lived in the world knows that there is a limit to how much "growth" is possible.  It is disingenuous to claim that anyone can do anything if they put in the effort.  Differences in ability are real, and they can be profound.

 

I like the growth mindset jargon. I do feel like it gave me words of encouragement that matched my heart in certain situations where  I lacked the appropriate words.

But it certainly doesn’t translate into “you can be anything and do anything you see your heart to.” That’s just dishonest. It’s been an ongoing conversation at my house recently because ds9 loves the viola and the piano. Really loves them. Practices each faithfully around a half hour daily, and works *hard,* and has for the last several years. Now dd7 has started piano and violin, and she is already a better strings player than he is, even if her theory isn’t quite as advanced. It’s clear to anyone who hears them that she is a far superior player, despite having started less than six months ago and only practicing ten minutes a day. I feel like I want to shield ds from this somehow, because it’s a hard thing in life to give something your very best and then be shown up by a little twerp who isn’t even trying. 

[Guest]

I was on my way out with my family and did not have the time to respond properly. So what you are implying with your comment below is that I have a fixed mindset? It must be a miracle how I managed to survive living in 4 different countries/ 3 different continents with such a fixed mindset LOL! Honestly, people's opinions of me don't affect me, but I feel sad for the kids that will be shamed into the theories by being accused of having a "fixed mindset'.

7 hours ago, Pen said:

I am not even sure we are disagreeing in substance so much as in our use of language or perhaps in our own mindset ways of thinking. 

 

My point in a previous post was that by definition the word MINDSET implies something fixed. I don't have a mindSET. I use my mind to think through things and discern for myself what I find useful and what I do not; what represents me and my values and what doesn't. Labeling of any kind just limits the power of our beautiful brain that the LORD has blessed us with; the power of which the human mind is not even close to comprehending. That is my opinion, so I don't limit my brains capabilities with labels or other people's preconceptions.  

Edited September 15, 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Pen said:

 

Is this coming from a background of having carefully read Mindset?

your statement seems like a straw man argument to me  .  

 

Is this coming from carefully reading Mindset or do I need to read a different book to understand how this does not sound rude to others?

Edited September 15, 2018 by Guest

[Pen]

7 hours ago, Moved On said:

a fixed mindset

 

@Moved On You are reading in a word that I did not write. There are many “mindsets,” not just “fixed” and “growth”.   

I am unable to explain this in a post, but if you want to know more about just a few, I recommend the book Learn, Work, Live (title may be off, but has words like that in it) by Caroline Leaf.  

@EKS I apologize if you felt hurt by my comment on your post. I do think that the idea that anyone can do anything is clearly wrong (and also is not what I got from my reading of Mindset). When you clarified that that was a message that has come from things that it has led to in wider world. I agree that is true. 

Because I was raised with an extreme negative mindset and have to work hard to overcome that at all in my life, an over emphasis on the positive and possible is helping for me, personally.  I first learned about Dweck’s research in a small article In a university alumni magazine (years before the book came out) called, I think, E is for Effort.  (The uni had E for Excellent as its top grade equivalent to an A in most US schools.) It had just a few specifics they had found made a difference.  I started using those things in my own life and found it made a big difference.

Not anyone can do anything.  Most of the young teens who think they are going to be professional sports stars aren’t, for example.  But more can sometimes be done than older fixed mindset scripts tended to tell us.  Kids with dyslexia can be very successful, even very academically successful in fields requiring a lot of reading and writing, law or medicine, for example.  A blind person can learn to use sound bouncing off objects to understand spatial relationships well enough to ride a bike.

 That latter came about in large measure because the mother of the blind child had a mindset that let him try things like riding a bike, encouraged him to try things, rather than determining in her own mind that, “obviously,” a blind child riding bike would be in the impossible category, and doing as more parents (me included!) would probably do which would be not to let a blind child even try to ride due to fear of injury.

 

9 hours ago, 4KookieKids said:

 

I like the growth mindset jargon. I do feel like it gave me words of encouragement that matched my heart in certain situations where  I lacked the appropriate words.

 

Me too.

Quote

 

But it certainly doesn’t translate into “you can be anything and do anything you see your heart to.” That’s just dishonest. It’s been an ongoing conversation at my house recently because ds9 loves the viola and the piano. Really loves them. Practices each faithfully around a half hour daily, and works *hard,* and has for the last several years. Now dd7 has started piano and violin, and she is already a better strings player than he is, even if her theory isn’t quite as advanced. It’s clear to anyone who hears them that she is a far superior player, despite having started less than six months ago and only practicing ten minutes a day. I feel like I want to shield ds from this somehow, because it’s a hard thing in life to give something your very best and then be shown up by a little twerp who isn’t even trying. 

 

I am wondering what the ongoing conversation in your house is like?

My view is that in time, your 9 year old if she keeps practicing may go far with music, even if she does not become a famous classical musician.

She may find her love of and playing of music is a continuing source of great happiness in her llife, especially, if she can continue to enjoy it without comparing herself to her little sister. 

I have one friend who plays in a nonprofessional chamber orchestra group just for fun—while having a career in another field. I have another friend who, perhaps like your dd, was not a great naturally gifted musician, but loved it and stuck with it (a lot more than just an hour per day) and now as an adult, runs her own classical (violin and viola) music learning studio. And also,  I think she enjoys being something of a homebody, gardening, cooking, so this probably fits her better than touring with orchestras and living out of a suitcase would have.  

My mother has a friend who lost 2 fingers in an accident in childhood, and nonetheless continued to practice and study music, and now can play violin well enough to be a church service musician at her local church and a music teacher.  

 

[Pen]

@4KookieKids in above post there is an error of dd and using  “she” where I meant your son ds9 who loves violin seems more like my friend who loved it and stuck with it despite apparently not being “naturally” gifted in playing it. 

 

Edited September 15, 2018 by Pen

[4KookieKids]

5 minutes ago, Pen said:

I am wondering what the ongoing conversation in your house is like?

My view is that in time, your 9 year old if she keeps practicing may go far with music, even if she does not become a famous classical musician.

She may find her love of and playing of music is a continuing source of great happiness in her llife, especially, if she can continue to enjoy it without comparing herself to her little sister. 

 

We talk about love of music first and foremost. My kids aren’t required to learn instruments. I specifically discuss with them that I have enough things I have to make them do- I will not put myself in the place of also having to enforce daily practice of an instrument. The rules are simple: if you don’t practice faithfully, I just won’t pay for lessons. Becaus of this, myfocus with my kids is always love of music first, and how sometimes that requires practicing through hard times. Ds9 is a real perfectionist, and I sometimes have to drag him away from the piano in tears because he just can’t get a piece right and he really just needs a break. At those times, we revisit the conversation: is this still fun? Do you still find this fulfilling? If so, we can work through this, with time and practice and help from your teacher. If it’s only causing frustration (like after an hour of making the same mistakes...), then it’s time to take a break and ty again later.

I try hard to suppress any comparisons, but it’s also hard when dd7, who still lacks most tact, just flat out asks why ds9’s playing doesn’t sound so good, and starts to give him pointers... lol. 

So far, ds9 isn’t too bothered by the situation, but I am watching it carefully. It’s just been hard for me to watch as a parent because I find it so unfair that dd7 is so much better, despite all his efforts.

[Dmmetler]

20 hours ago, Pen said:

 

This.

But it might be hard to do a good study irl. I can imagine that even if, for example, in my son’s case he had been lectured to about mindset or been doing some computer based “intervention” at the same time that as a 5yo he was at the “stupid” kids table in school as a nonreader (it wasn’t called that officially), or when he still could not read at age 9, it would not be enough to undo the sense of “I am stupid.”  

 

I think that the key is for the kid to be able to see progress along with getting the message. That is, if DD is working a skill and busting every single time, all the lectures on “if you believe it, you can do it” will go over her head. If the coach points out “ok, this time, you made it most of the way over, because you’re using more strength in your legs, so let’s build on that”, plus the positive thinking when she starts getting down on herself, it’s a lot more likely to sink in. One thing I realized with DD, who is super asynchronous, so often has things where she’s years behind her peers, and others where she’s years ahead is that mindset isn’t person-specific, but situation specific. It’s a lot easier for her to have a positive mindset about a hard math concept because she has years of success in math than in a motor skill where she has years of failure. 

[Pen]

2 hours ago, Pen said:

10 hours ago, Moved On said:

a fixed mindset

 

@Moved On You are reading in a word that I did not write. There are many “mindsets,” not just “fixed” and “growth”.   

I am unable to explain this in a post, but if you want to know more about just a few, I recommend the book Learn, Work, Live (title may be off, but has words like that in it) by Caroline Leaf.  

 

PS Since you have a lot of negative associations with the word “mindset” if you choose to read the book, any place it uses that term, perhaps you could substitute something in your own mind that would feel positive to you.  

I did have the title wrong: 

Think, Learn, Succeed: Understanding and Using Your Mind to Thrive at School, the Workplace, and Life https://www.amazon.com/dp/0801093279/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_O1rNBb85XHPH2

Her background is neuroscienc, and she discusses religious values in it also—perhaps other than some use of the word mindset, which is a negative for you, it would resonate more with you than Dweck’s book. 

Or, even not if your thing, maybe someone else reading this would find it interesting and / or helpful. 

[Pen]

1 hour ago, dmmetler said:

If the coach points out “ok, this time, you made it most of the way over, because you’re using more strength in your legs, so let’s build on that”

 

Yes.  And that type of communication was exactly what (as I initially had read in the article about Dweck’s research) fit the sort of communication they were finding helpful .  And it was found to be helpful both in areas that were a struggle and in areas of strength.  

 

 

[Pen]

11 hours ago, Moved On said:

y point in a previous post was that by definition the word MINDSET implies something fixed. I don't have a mindSET. I use my mind to think through things and discern for myself what I find useful and what I do not; what represents me and my values and what doesn't. Labeling of any kind just limits the power of our beautiful brain that the LORD has blessed us with; the power of which the human mind is not even close to comprehending. That is my opinion, so I don't limit my brains capabilities with labels or other people's preconceptions.  

 

I can understand that the way you experience the word it has very negative connotations.

Mindset as explained in a Collins online dictionary:

“If you refer to someone's mindset, you mean their general attitudes and the way they typically think about things.”

My Merriam-Webster gives as its #1 definition something similar to the above. 

Its #2 definition is more along the lines of the way you experience the word. 

 

I am tending to think of the term mindset as with the meaning from Collins dictionary. Yet even if it is used with  the sense of meaning a fixed state of mind, I don’t have the negative feelings about the term mindset that you seem to have, and it does not seem like an oxymoron to me. 

 I experience a very positive resonance from the term “growth mindset”.   ETA In a sense I could say that I have a mindset that is uplifted and energized by the term “growth mindset” and my prior connections with the term.  

I am not saying you are wrong.

Just we are different.  

ETA: and I don’t much care if you think that I am wrong.   Also for your awareness, since for me “mindset” isn’t a negative term stating that we have different mindsets isn’t intended as an insult. I get that you don’t consider yourself to have any mindset at all, however, my own mindset is that anyone who is capable of thought has numerous mindsets, 

Edited September 15, 2018 by Pen

[Guest]

Pen, it's not a matter of positive or negative associations. I process things differently and use different types of books. I use prayer and seek guidance from God first when I seek to resolve challenges in my life. I am by nature a "glass half full" type of person and have been able to maintain that since childhood through prayer and faith. Do I read books when I feel the need to? Sure! They are just different than what has been shared here.

Edited September 15, 2018 by Guest

[Heathermomster]

I'm curious now to see what these mindset programs look like.  

[Guest]

I also don't feel the need to prove to anyone that I am right. It was not the point of this thread. I have no feelings about the mindset theories one way or the other, other than that they don't represent my way of thinking.

[Pen]

14 minutes ago, Heathermomster said:

I'm curious now to see what these mindset programs look like.  

 

I don’t think they have the paid program, but my son’s English teacher is having them practice note taking from the following and other mindset related articles—I think it is probably helpful and at worst neutral:

https://7mindsets.com/smart-goal-setting-for-teens/

[Pen]

19 hours ago, Pen said:

I thought I was talking about the theory as distinct from the commercial products. 

 

I am not even sure we are disagreeing in substance so much as in our use of language or perhaps in our own mindset ways of thinking. 

 

29 minutes ago, Moved On said:

Pen, it's not a matter of positive or negative associations. I process things differently and use different types of books. I use prayer and seek guidance from God first when I seek to resolve challenges in my life. I am by nature a "glass half full" type of person and have been able to maintain that since childhood through prayer and faith. Do I read books when I feel the need to? Sure! They are just different than what has been shared here.

 

Okay.  Different ways of thinking. Different things that resonate.

Even different things that God has led us each to read. 

[Heathermomster]

53 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I don’t think they have the paid program, but my son’s English teacher is having them practice note taking from the following and other mindset related articles—I think it is probably helpful and at worst neutral:

https://7mindsets.com/smart-goal-setting-for-teens/

Sklar specifically teaches planning for goal attainment.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

 

Okay.  Different ways of thinking. Different things that resonate.

Even different things that God has led us each to read. 

Which is why it was not my intent to share personal thoughts. I put FYI at the beginning of the title of this thread for a reason. It was to inform others on the data on this theory so that people can make more informed decisions for themselves and not influenced by how others feel about them based on their (mine included) views and way of thinking.

[Pen]

47 minutes ago, Moved On said:

Which is why it was not my intent to share personal thoughts. I put FYI at the beginning of the title of this thread for a reason. It was to inform others on the data on this theory so that people can make more informed decisions for themselves and not influenced by how others feel about them based on their (mine included) views and way of thinking.

 

I think perhaps the problem was that instead of letting it be as an FYI, without further comment, when others such as @KathyBC and @forty-two shared personal positive experiences with Growth Mindset ideas, you did not let that go, but rather replied with: 

On 9/14/2018 at 10:02 AM, Moved On said:

Here's a direct quote from the article linked in my first post derived by the latest study that tested the effects or lack there of of the growth mindset theory

 

which to me was an incorrect conflation of theory and commercial programs, insofar as it was an article about a study testing one or more commercial program.  

Additionally to it seeming to me to be an incorrect conflation of theory and commercial program, to me, your reply with its italics felt like you were contradicting the personal positive experiences some board members had posted about above that post, and also a contradiction of my own, unshared at that point, personal positive experience. Sort of like you were saying the study about which you read an article in buzzfeed proves that Growth Mindset theory could not benefit me because this study you were linking says that it doesn’t help people.  

Since I had personal experience of it being something beneficial in my life, I Replied in additional posts  Including this one  

Unless I see some strong reason to post anything else here, I am going to try to not post anymore on this thread from this point on.