Jump to content

Menu

Can we discuss the relative merits and drawbacks of tuition-free community college?


Ginevra
 Share

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, SKL said:

Personally I don't think there is anything shameful about coming from a working class background.  I am proud of what my parents accomplished and what I accomplished.  I don't care to work for people who are stupid about it.  When I did have a job with people who cared, it was a sucky job and I might have been better off not accepting it.

The options for financing higher education will not change how different people view each other.  But it can open doors for like-minded people to work together.  Remember that many successful business people came from the working class, or otherwise relate well with working class people.  They will be happy to hire degreed people from working class backgrounds.  Those people in turn are likely to build successful businesses for the next generation of degreed working-class people.  Who cares if there are also some people who think themselves too good to interact with us.  Their problem.

Yes, this is true.  My XH and my dh both went back to school in their 30s.  Both were hired by men who had also changed careers mid stream.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, SKL said:

General off-topic muse ... I wonder why it is uncomfortable to talk about kids' financial aid but not their scholarships?  Isn't it just as elitist to say how great your kids' genetic material is as it is to say how fat your bankroll is?  ?

For real. My daughter refuses to talk about scholarships with people. She’s kinda embarrassed that she got so many in a way. It would be the same way as discussing how much money we made last year. I mean she’s thankful but feels that it’s npbodys business how she paid for college and feels grateful and fortunate that it worked out that way. She graduated with students who published their scholarships in the program bio and she found it crass while secretly and shamefully feeling superior that her scholarships were better and she wasn’t tacky enough to talk about it. ? I understood. 

  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We working-class people view it as an amusement to see silly people being silly about image.

The other night my younger sister was recalling a time when she invited me to attend the dean's list dinner with her.  The guy sitting next to me asked me what I had done at the college, and I told him I had a Bachelor of General Studies.  He literally turned his back on me to talk to the person on the other side of him for some time.  I winked at my sister.  Eventually he decided that politeness required some more small talk with me, so he condescended to ask what I was doing with my Bachelor of General Studies.  I told him about my law degree, MBA, CPA, and my work at the Big 6 accounting firm.  At that point he turned his whole back on his other neighbor to butter me up.  LOL!  Fun stuff.

  • Like 4
  • Haha 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, Quill said:

Because there is already bias against people from lower economic strata. If two college grads are applying for a job opening and one has lived a Vinyard Vines upper lifestyle, while the other scraped up from a hillbilly background to get to this position, the upper-lifestyle applicant has a greater likelihood of getting the job unless the hillbilly-cum-graduate can fakeout the hiring partner. 

I don’t think it compares adequately to public school because public school has been de facto for a long time and the segment sending his to private school for K-12 has always been a much smaller portion of the population. 

To your middle paragraph, though, YES I do think it is very important for people of less means to access college. It is THE reason I am glad this bill was signed. 

One thing that needs to be rectified IMO is to be sure that kids know there is help available for those of lesser means. When I graduated high school, all I had ever heard was that college was too expensive and was not for people like us. I didn’t even have any idea how one gets in to a college and pays for it, nor did I know a single thing about privates, publics, junior colleges. I had no idea what those terms even meant or how they applied to me. 

I agree that we need to make that information more readily available. Many students don’t even know where to start. There should be a class second semester of sophomore year or first semester of junior year in every public high school in the country on how to get to post-secondary ed, whatever that looks like. We can’t just go around saying everyone should go to something after high school and not share with them how to get there. Many students don’t have that support at home and have no clue. 

I met a woman who had gotten a certification through CC. She later started a degree at a private university. Up until she went to pay the bill, she didn’t know the difference between public and private universities and the cost difference. She never finished and is still paying off that debt. She was the first in her family to go to college and had no idea and no-one to guide her through the process. It broke my heart for her.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, SKL said:

We working-class people view it as an amusement to see silly people being silly about image.

The other night my younger sister was recalling a time when she invited me to attend the dean's list dinner with her.  The guy sitting next to me asked me what I had done at the college, and I told him I had a Bachelor of General Studies.  He literally turned his back on me to talk to the person on the other side of him for some time.  I winked at my sister.  Eventually he decided that politeness required some more small talk with me, so he condescended to ask what I was doing with my Bachelor of General Studies.  I told him about my law degree, MBA, CPA, and my work at the Big 6 accounting firm.  At that point he turned his whole back on his other neighbor to butter me up.  LOL!  Fun stuff.

So true and your story is funny!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎7‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 11:14 AM, Liz CA said:

CA residents have a tuition waiver for in state community colleges but there are several excellent ones. AA/AS degrees do not seem to be devalued by this and many people move on to a four year university in better financial shape since CC was free (except books, parking, health fee, etc.)

There is a difference in educational quality from one CC to another but I have never seen a blanket rejection of degrees received at CCs here because they do not charge tuition.

ETA: This waiver is not tied to income in CA but residency.

I haven't read all three pages but I wanted to say that this is the case in Texas too. Many students at four year schools actually use the CC in the summer because the credits are guaranteed to transfer and they're much cheaper but not free.

Our CC is tuition free for dual enrollment. We just pay fees ($92 for a 3 credit class) and buy or rent the textbooks (which can be very pricey if it's a new edition and there' no used copies available). The credits are easily transferrable to all public and most private colleges in Texas.

I do think there's a limit to how useful an AA/AS transfer degree is in a job search. It doesn't give you easily marketable skills like an allied medical degree or similar job-related degree would. OTOH, it shaves 1.5 to 2 years off of paying university tuition for general education courses. Once you've got your degree, I doubt anyone will delve into how many credits you transferred in.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

Club sports are not elitist at all, they are just what middle class parents do when they are looking for a foot in the college door for an average student...or they are in underfunded school districts that dont have much in sports and have a kid who is preparing for the military, or one that just wants to be healthy or maybe earn a merit badge.   Really, not everyone is going to play football and soccer and the squads for these teams are so small in comparison to the number of students attending the high school that there are students qualified for varsity who won't make the cut.  They have to go club to continue in their sport.  

CCs have their strengths and weaknesses, but here in my state they serve the local area business training needs.  Things like electrical tech aren't offered here, one has to go elsewhere. So the cost saving isn't too great since now they have to pay living expenses while working unskilled.  Want to be a dental ass't or an LPN? Limited openings, so better have high grades from high school.  Plenty of room in the Gen Ed 2 yr....aka 13th and 14th grades. People are more interested in a trade certificate than completing gen eds; thats why 2 yr schools don't have the greatest grad rates...people bail as soon as they can get the employment if they can do so without the degree.

Rather than labeling things as elitist, one might be happy that a family found a situation where their child can actually advance his skills, whether that is club, CC, or a Top 20 college. 

While I wouldn’t necessarily use the word elitist I do think something that costs tens of thousands of dollars a year is exclusive.

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, ClemsonDana said:

And now, as one of the many TN folks on this board, I can say that many of my high school students dual enroll for their senior, and sometimes junior, years.  2 years ago a student talked with me at the end of the semester - he was completely disillusioned.  He had hoped that, once he took college classes, the small number of 'non-participants' that he dealt with co-op would not be in college classes, but he said that the CC classes were worse, and the instructors had to walk through everything, nobody did assigned prep, etc.  I think that the free school made it easier for students to see it as 'grade 13' - a place to go if they didn't know what they wanted to do.  Unfortunately, some use up their allowance of 'free CC' without gaining many credits or career direction, and then all they have to show for it is a low GPA that pulls down their average when they do figure out what they want to do.  I think the 2 years can be fantastic for motivated students who are working towards a goal, but it can also lead to a watering down of classes when colleges are under pressure to retain a certain percentage of students and more than that percentage is only there because it's free and they don't know what else to do.  

We can't fix everything. Some people will take an opportunity and screw it up. But, if we don't give anyone an opportunity because some people will screw up, we'll be condemning far more kids to dead end jobs or chronic unemployment. At least with these program, kids with a good work ethic can either get the first two years of college done with no debt or train for a better paying job. That's a real benefit to all of society.

  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, HeighHo said:

 

Club sports are not elitist at all, they are just what middle class parents do when they are looking for a foot in the college door for an average student...or they are in underfunded school districts that dont have much in sports and have a kid who is preparing for the military, or one that just wants to be healthy or maybe earn a merit badge.   Really, not everyone is going to play football and soccer and the squads for these teams are so small in comparison to the number of students attending the high school that there are students qualified for varsity who won't make the cut.  They have to go club to continue in their sport.  

CCs have their strengths and weaknesses, but here in my state they serve the local area business training needs.  Things like electrical tech aren't offered here, one has to go elsewhere. So the cost saving isn't too great since now they have to pay living expenses while working unskilled.  Want to be a dental ass't or an LPN? Limited openings, so better have high grades from high school.  Plenty of room in the Gen Ed 2 yr....aka 13th and 14th grades. People are more interested in a trade certificate than completing gen eds; thats why 2 yr schools don't have the greatest grad rates...people bail as soon as they can get the employment if they can do so without the degree.

Rather than labeling things as elitist, one might be happy that a family found a situation where their child can actually advance his skills, whether that is club, CC, or a Top 20 college. 

Well, 'middle class' is a vague and broad term.........I think most people could not afford club ball.  My sister spent 10s of 1000s of dollars on club vb.  She could have financed an education for what she spent on it.  Not to mention the amount of time it took.  And yes they were told 'oh scholarships will just pour in'.  And she did get a scholarship....which she used for one semester before changing schools.  The scholarship was not a full ride....it was a partial ride to a private school and she came out of that one semester owing money. I went to plenty of those games---it was definitely all about image.  

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

.  If it is a crappy CC well, then don't go there.  Find a CC that has a good reputation...

In Texas, going to a CC that you're not zoned for is quite a bit more expensive. It's also going to be farther away, probably more than an hour's drive. It's not a realistic option for most people.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Well, 'middle class' is a vague and broad term.........I think most people could not afford club ball.  My sister spent 10s of 1000s of dollars on club vb.  She could have financed an education for what she spent on it.  Not to mention the amount of time it took.  And yes they were told 'oh scholarships will just pour in'.  And she did get a scholarship....which she used for one semester before changing schools.  The scholarship was not a full ride....it was a partial ride to a private school and she came out of that one semester owing money. I went to plenty of those games---it was definitely all about image.  

It’s very true around here. Club Lacrosse is a big one. There are endless promises about scouts attending who are sure to recruit your child to a D1school on a full ride or at least full tuition. And scouts do come. And people do get scholarships to play LAX at nice colleges. But I’m sure it pans out that way for a small percentage of club players. 

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

It really depends on the level of the club and the sport.  No, not everyone is going to dedicate their life to supporting their child's sport.  But there are plenty of students playing club just because there is no team at their high school.  Swim for example, is app $500 a season here.  Hardly elitist.  Great investment for health.

The club soccer team my DD was invited to join was over $10K for one year. And that was in 2011-ish. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

Club sports are not elitist at all, they are just what middle class parents do when they are looking for a foot in the college door for an average student...or they are in underfunded school districts that dont have much in sports and have a kid who is preparing for the military, or one that just wants to be healthy or maybe earn a merit badge.  

I have to say that Scarlett is right about club volleyball and cheer being elitist pursuits in the Houston area. You might not experience this in your area, but she's completely correct about the social standing of those activities here.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

One thing about Tennessee promise that I liked was that the mandatory meetings were so very basic. While I didn’t need instruction on “ here’s what a credit hour is.” “Your deadline to apply for colleges is this date. Do it.” “To do well in college you have to go to class, do your homework and study” I can see that these basics are very needed. They’re trying to set up these students for success.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

Yep! It’s called a ‘community college’ for a reason, lol. Many areas have one CC. I think the nearest one to me is at least 40 minutes away .

 

#smallstateadvantage

? 

Though we do still pay out-of-county rates if we do go to a neighboring CC. But I do know many people who do this because on CC offers a program that another does not and I live near the convergence of four different counties. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, chiguirre said:

In Texas, going to a CC that you're not zoned for is quite a bit more expensive. It's also going to be farther away, probably more than an hour's drive. It's not a realistic option for most people.

My son will be driving about an hour.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Quill said:

It’s very true around here. Club Lacrosse is a big one. There are endless promises about scouts attending who are sure to recruit your child to a D1school on a full ride or at least full tuition. And scouts do come. And people do get scholarships to play LAX at nice colleges. But I’m sure it pans out that way for a small percentage of club players. 

 


And those small percentage of players, if they'd said, "No, sorry, I can't join because I can't afford it", would have been offered to join for free or almost free.    If they are that good, the rest of the team would be willing to float the ringer(s).   

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Quill said:

Right, but the conversation is different because there is an assumption in general that if your kid is going to CC, one of two things are likely:

A) There is a desire or need to reduce costs as much as possible, and/or

B) The student will not gain admission to a 4-yr due to grades, scores, motivation, ability or some combination of those things. 

If Friend B sends a kid to Uni. of MD in part accessing a Pell Grant, that is outwardly not inferrable as a contrast to Friend A, who is sending a kid there with no grant because they don’t qualfy for assistence. 

 

Ah, this is where it's different here.

CCs are not viewed for those only who cannot afford 4-year tuition. Instead among students and employers, it is seen as a viable and smart alternative to save money - BUT as I said in previous posts, most CCs I am familiar with have articulation agreements with universities like UC Davis, Sacramento State, etc.

One of the CCs I mentioned before is actually higher rated in academic rigor than their local 4-year university but this seems to be very different where you are. So I can understand why someone attending CC is automatically viewed in terms of "why would you not choose university; must be a lack of money or good grades.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:


And those small percentage of players, if they'd said, "No, sorry, I can't join because I can't afford it", would have been offered to join for free or almost free.    If they are that good, the rest of the team would be willing to float the ringer(s).   

Shrug. Maybe. But “afford” is a slippery target. If an ace athlete literally cannot afford it, as in, has trouble just paying for food and a roof over their heads, then maybe. But there are many people who could technically afford it but will not see that as a priority. (Me, for example.) Also, a lot of good athletes get that way simply because they are playing on elite teams and have more opportunities to level up, not because they were magically gifted from birth. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, chiguirre said:

We can't fix everything. Some people will take an opportunity and screw it up. But, if we don't give anyone an opportunity because some people will screw up, we'll be condemning far more kids to dead end jobs or chronic unemployment. At least with these program, kids with a good work ethic can either get the first two years of college done with no debt or train for a better paying job. That's a real benefit to all of society.

I agree with this - I just wonder if the way that this is being implemented is the best use of the $.  When I taught at a CC in a different state, I had some students who were fantastic, and many had really complicated life stories.  At times I felt like my job was as much encouraging as actually teaching content.  Many were older students who wouldn't necessarily been eligible for HOPE type scholarships anyway.  But, when a high school dual enrollment student says that in one class, he was 1 of 2 students who turned in the first few assignments and it pretty much continued that way all semester, and the other class he took wasn't much better, I have to wonder if paying for college for the other 22 students in each class was the best use of $. 

One of my most memorable CC students was a woman who was sitting in her desk after class.  I stopped by and asked if she had a question, and she started sobbing...and out poured a story of a husband who ran off with another woman, leaving her with 3 kids...she had never gone to college (or had taken a few classes for a year, I don't remember) and hadn't worked in 10 years and needed to get through biology so that she could start nursing school ASAP so that she could get a job to support her kids and it was all so hard because she was out of practice with school and had to work and....

Anyway, CCs often have waiting lists for classes and especially lab courses, which can't be overfilled.  Many also have extremely high drop rates - in the pre-nursing biology, it was expected that we'd lose at least 1/3 of the students over the course of the semester, and sometimes as many as 1/2.  I don't have any idea how to do it, but it would be great if there was a way to minimize the number of unmotivated students who come because it's free and they don't know what else to do so that they aren't taking $ and space from students who are desperate to earn their degrees and get to work.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, ClemsonDana said:

 I don't have any idea how to do it, but it would be great if there was a way to minimize the number of unmotivated students who come because it's free and they don't know what else to do so that they aren't taking $ and space from students who are desperate to earn their degrees and get to work.

Instead of making it free up front, students who put the work in and succeed could be given a grant retroactively that reimburses them for tuition, or pays tuition for the upcoming semester. Or the aid could be given up front, but as a loan that will be forgiven if the student succeeds.

I know some parents who have their kids front the money each semester, and then reimburse them at the end of the semester contingent on good grades.

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, Quill said:

Shrug. Maybe. But “afford” is a slippery target. If an ace athlete literally cannot afford it, as in, has trouble just paying for food and a roof over their heads, then maybe. But there are many people who could technically afford it but will not see that as a priority. (Me, for example.) Also, a lot of good athletes get that way simply because they are playing on elite teams and have more opportunities to level up, not because they were magically gifted from birth. 

Not mention there are a lot of costs associate with that type of club.  My sister was flying all over the country to watch her dd play vb.  I found it ridiculous now just like I did then. She deeply regrets it....and she isn't doing it for her other kids.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Not mention there are a lot of costs associate with that type of club.  My sister was flying all over the country to watch her dd play vb.  I found it ridiculous now just like I did then. She deeply regrets it....and she isn't doing it for her other kids.

Yes, that is a good bit of where it is a deal-breaker for me. All of my kids have participated in multiple sports, but I have never been willing to travel everywhere and buy special warm-up suits and do hotel rooms and everything else. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have traveled around the country and paid for my daughters to swim at a high level. My dd1 has made more with her scholarship than we put in.

but that was never the reason. She is a gifted athlete and we honored that gift to the best of our ability. 

Dd2 is starting the recruiting process. She will be the same, different level of school, different level of talent.

it has been a struggle for us, but ultimately worth it.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, MysteryJen said:

I have traveled around the country and paid for my daughters to swim at a high level. My dd1 has made more with her scholarship than we put in.

but that was never the reason. She is a gifted athlete and we honored that gift to the best of our ability. 

Dd2 is starting the recruiting process. She will be the same, different level of school, different level of talent.

it has been a struggle for us, but ultimately worth it.

Yours are the exception. I know of two kids whose parents spent over $10000 per year for many years (like 9 each) only to get a partial tuition scholarship at an out of state school. One transferred out of her school after one semester because the coach was a nut job having never played and her parents foot the whole bill at the state flagship (around $30000 per year) for undergrad and now are footing the $50000 for nursing school. The other required surgery and lost his scholarship after 2 years. Had to seek out scholarship $ at a smaller less known institution, private, and parents are still paying a large portion. I would also be willing to bet your dd’s had high test scores. Those make a huge difference.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

One way? That's a lot of time lost on the commute, especially for a student.

 

I did have a long commute too. The only redeeming thing was that I wrote the papers in my head - or at least an outline so the hour was not entirely wasted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Here in CA, once the union apprenticeships dried up the community colleges kept the trades alive.  I will always be grateful for that.

Forgive my ignorance, but what does this mean? Does this mean trade unions used to do all the training for trades by way of apprenticeship? And now they don’t? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We have a program at our local community college, funded by public and private sources. Eligibility is income based, only for current year high school graduates with a minimum 2.0 GPA. If you are a year or more post-high school graduation, you aren't eligible. Once accepted, you may receive tuition assistance for up to three years. You must continue to meet GPA requirements.

I worked at our CC, right outside the office of the program coordinator--whose position was actually funded by the public K-12 system, as he oversaw all of the students from that district as they progressed through the program. The vast majority of the program students did not do well. They lacked the basic academic skills to succeed in a college environment. The coordinator literally would go to classrooms to wait for his students to exit, because they would not keep in contact with him as required. He held counseling sessions, by appt or walk in. He was a great encourager and cheerleader, but he wasn't able to make the students perform.

Sure, some did well in the program. But overall, the program students had a much higher failure rate than the non-program students. It was sad, because the program had such great intentions--like many "free" programs where people are not personally vested.

 

  • Sad 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Quill said:

Forgive my ignorance, but what does this mean? Does this mean trade unions used to do all the training for trades by way of apprenticeship? And now they don’t? 

Pretty much.

I know guys who apprenticed for electrician and plumbing jobs out here back in the day, formally, through the unions.  And once they had their journeyman papers they were in high demand, but also they would have access to union benefits like medical and pensions.  Now that system is pretty much gone here, and so either you go out of state, or you take 'a few classes' (works for electricians, but not so much for plumbers) but don't get a formal qualification, so no access to unions or benefits.

My husband has journeyman papers from a traditional Midwestern union tool and die maker apprenticeship, and when he moved out here he was in high demand.  The only remaining apprenticeship program for his field in the state is at San Quentin Prison.  But the local community colleges stepped up and taught the trade, even though they couldn't give out journeyman papers, and that was quite valuable. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Pretty much.

I know guys who apprenticed for electrician and plumbing jobs out here back in the day, formally, through the unions.  And once they had their journeyman papers they were in high demand, but also they would have access to union benefits like medical and pensions.  Now that system is pretty much gone here, and so either you go out of state, or you take 'a few classes' (works for electricians, but not so much for plumbers) but don't get a formal qualification, so no access to unions or benefits.

My husband has journeyman papers from a traditional Midwestern union tool and die maker apprenticeship, and when he moved out here he was in high demand.  The only remaining apprenticeship program for his field in the state is at San Quentin Prison.  But the local community colleges stepped up and taught the trade, even though they couldn't give out journeyman papers, and that was quite valuable. 

Thank you for explaining. 

What we have experienced here (my husband is a plumbing contactor) is that the population planning to work in trades have been largely...uh, not shining stars. He had a very skillful plumber working for him at one time, but he couldn’t/wouldn’t go through certifications to get his journeyman’s. Eventually, he was convicted of a crime and went to prison. 

He has several times had plumber’s helpers who just couldn’t get their act together. Substance abuse is common. A couple have been functionally illiterate. 

When we have had good folks, we help them move ahead in their trade, but it has not been a frequent experience, sadly. “Shining star” people are infrequently pursuing plumbing, although I understand this; I do not encourage my kids to take over the business and become plumbers themselves. It is too punishing on the body and there are some social drawbacks as well, IMO. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Pretty much.

I know guys who apprenticed for electrician and plumbing jobs out here back in the day, formally, through the unions.  And once they had their journeyman papers they were in high demand, but also they would have access to union benefits like medical and pensions.  Now that system is pretty much gone here, and so either you go out of state, or you take 'a few classes' (works for electricians, but not so much for plumbers) but don't get a formal qualification, so no access to unions or benefits.

My husband has journeyman papers from a traditional Midwestern union tool and die maker apprenticeship, and when he moved out here he was in high demand.  The only remaining apprenticeship program for his field in the state is at San Quentin Prison.  But the local community colleges stepped up and taught the trade, even though they couldn't give out journeyman papers, and that was quite valuable. 

 

I wonder how people are getting access to union benefits  or join the union now or do those benefits not exist at all anymore? Two BILs came through the carpenter's union back in the day. I know there were drawbacks to being a union member as well but still...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Liz CA said:

 

I wonder how people are getting access to union benefits  or join the union now or do those benefits not exist at all anymore? Two BILs came through the carpenter's union back in the day. I know there were drawbacks to being a union member as well but still...

Unions push for governments to hire only union labor, and they hire people from out of state that have papers.

It's too bad that the CC's can't offer papers.  I'm not sure why that is, but I think it has to do with classes (though hands on ones) but no industry experience.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Quill said:

Thank you for explaining. 

What we have experienced here (my husband is a plumbing contactor) is that the population planning to work in trades have been largely...uh, not shining stars. He had a very skillful plumber working for him at one time, but he couldn’t/wouldn’t go through certifications to get his journeyman’s. Eventually, he was convicted of a crime and went to prison. 

He has several times had plumber’s helpers who just couldn’t get their act together. Substance abuse is common. A couple have been functionally illiterate. 

When we have had good folks, we help them move ahead in their trade, but it has not been a frequent experience, sadly. “Shining star” people are infrequently pursuing plumbing, although I understand this; I do not encourage my kids to take over the business and become plumbers themselves. It is too punishing on the body and there are some social drawbacks as well, IMO. 

Well, when DH was little, white working class kids were channeled into vocational classes rather than academic ones, and then went into union programs if they were good/lucky/nearby or the military or non-trade 'worker' jobs if they weren't.  So having a trade was a nudge up from the mileau without being as full of yourself as someone who went to college.

(ETA:  This is one of the reasons why vocational schools fell by the wayside.  Because it was assumed that if you were a working class white kid that was your highest possible aspiration, and you had no chance to go to college.  And if you were a minority kid, you were educated to be a laborer.  Tracking was bad, bad stuff back in the day.)

How did I end up with this guy?  you may ask?  This guy who makes cracks about engineers (which I was), and never finished college (although he has a teaching credential in his trade, from Cal Berkeley, of all places)?  Well, he is smart.  And has decent character.  And is fun to talk with.

And in general, it was such a nice novelty to me to go out with a guy who was on a set work schedule, didn't take his work home with him, and wasn't intimidated/competitive with me because our fields were identical or too similar.  Someone who could be happy for me when I did well, and who I could be happy for, too.  We each knew that the other could do things that we could not, and mutually respected and appreciated that.  We have been an outstanding team.  We have not always gotten along swimmingly, but he has always worked hard and made good money, and now, ironically enough, he holds an engineering position in a big tech firm.  So there you have it.  

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Ravin said:

That does nothing to help the many, many students who will seek out CC for the vocational programs, not for prereqs to a bachelor's. I would be very happy to see CC become free here, because DD plans to go to cosmetology school, and while there are voc ed programs that would allow her to complete it in high school, I don't think she's going to be able to because those programs allow no accommodations for LD's. She's going to need more time and maturity and the space to focus on just her vocational education, which will make community college the better option (even now it's less expensive than a private cosmetology school).

This view basically views completing some post-high school education for students like my DD as "wasted resources."

I am actually VERY supportive of vocational education. I think the U.S. should adopt the same kind of high quality vocational education at the high school level that many other developed countries offer.

I also think that we should overhaul the Vocational Rehabilitation programs for adults with disabilities.

None of the above is incompatible with saying our society should have "free college" be for the LAST 2 years rather than the first 2 years.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, regentrude said:

One way? That's a lot of time lost on the commute, especially for a student.

Our closest CC is an hour away.  Ironically, as the crow flies, it is about four miles from our house (Puget Sound weirdness).

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/16/2018 at 12:39 PM, Crimson Wife said:

As a taxpayer, I'd rather see a guarantee that all low-to-moderate income students who graduate from a CC with a decent GPA can finish their bachelor's at one of the state schools cost-free. I think making the LAST 2 years of college free rather than the first 2 years would cut down on wasted resources because it would only go to students who have demonstrated the ability and work ethic to handle college. Right now we waste a TON of money on students who don't last more than a semester or two.

 

That’s a really interesting idea.  Or at the very least, don’t pay out the money unless the student completes the school year (or some other such qualifier.)

19 hours ago, scholastica said:

I agree that we need to make that information more readily available. Many students don’t even know where to start. There should be a class second semester of sophomore year or first semester of junior year in every public high school in the country on how to get to post-secondary ed, whatever that looks like. We can’t just go around saying everyone should go to something after high school and not share with them how to get there. Many students don’t have that support at home and have no clue. 

I met a woman who had gotten a certification through CC. She later started a degree at a private university. Up until she went to pay the bill, she didn’t know the difference between public and private universities and the cost difference. She never finished and is still paying off that debt. She was the first in her family to go to college and had no idea and no-one to guide her through the process. It broke my heart for her.

 

That’s so sad.  I feel for her and understand. I didn’t know all of this stuff just a couple of years ago.  I come onto this website every day for the entertaining threads, but also in an effort to learn about college.  Just 4 years ago, when my oldest was in 7th grade, I didn’t know what the ACT test was—I only knew of the SAT.  And I didn’t know the difference between private and public schools until just 3 years ago.  I was in a state of dread over college because I didn’t know what I didn’t know, but I knew there were big gaps—and there were.  

The past four years has been about reading every college thread that comes through this site and learning how this all works.  Without this website, I have no idea what I’d do.  But after these past 4 years of study, I feel comfortable (maybe not confident) about how this all works.  I didn’t go to college so I don’t know anything about it from my own experiences—only from reading.  

9 hours ago, Scarlett said:

It is the nature of rural life.  He drove 35 minutes each way for his two years of vo tech. 

 

I went from suburban to a mostly rural area a few years ago.  It’s surprising how far everything is when you’re in rural compared to urban or suburban.  But at least the view is pretty.  ?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, regentrude said:

Instead of making it free up front, students who put the work in and succeed could be given a grant retroactively that reimburses them for tuition, or pays tuition for the upcoming semester. Or the aid could be given up front, but as a loan that will be forgiven if the student succeeds.

I know some parents who have their kids front the money each semester, and then reimburse them at the end of the semester contingent on good grades.

 

That is how companies that pay for college do it.   They don't pay anything until they are shown the grade and the receipt.   
Of course, you wouldn't want this version to be based on the grade.   Grade inflation is bad enough as it is.  

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, regentrude said:

Instead of making it free up front, students who put the work in and succeed could be given a grant retroactively that reimburses them for tuition, or pays tuition for the upcoming semester. Or the aid could be given up front, but as a loan that will be forgiven if the student succeeds.

I know some parents who have their kids front the money each semester, and then reimburse them at the end of the semester contingent on good grades.

If accessibility due to cost is the issue, how are students who don't have the money up front or means to pay back a loan supposed to get the education they need?

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/16/2018 at 9:14 AM, Liz CA said:

CA residents have a tuition waiver for in state community colleges but there are several excellent ones. AA/AS degrees do not seem to be devalued by this and many people move on to a four year university in better financial shape since CC was free (except books, parking, health fee, etc.)

There is a difference in educational quality from one CC to another but I have never seen a blanket rejection of degrees received at CCs here because they do not charge tuition.

ETA: This waiver is not tied to income in CA but residency.

What waiver are you talking about? I’m only aware of the Board of Governors waiver, which is tied to income. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, scholastica said:

If accessibility due to cost is the issue, how are students who don't have the money up front or means to pay back a loan supposed to get the education they need?

Exactly.  When my brother was 18 he got a grant to go to school and then promptly dropped out.  His income tax return was taken from him until that grant was repaid.  So they could do something like that if they want to insure people don't just waste the money.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/16/2018 at 9:39 AM, Crimson Wife said:

As a taxpayer, I'd rather see a guarantee that all low-to-moderate income students who graduate from a CC with a decent GPA can finish their bachelor's at one of the state schools cost-free. I think making the LAST 2 years of college free rather than the first 2 years would cut down on wasted resources because it would only go to students who have demonstrated the ability and work ethic to handle college. Right now we waste a TON of money on students who don't last more than a semester or two.

 

That's an excellent idea!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/16/2018 at 8:08 PM, Crimson Wife said:

The UC flagships are ABSOLUTELY more rigorous than the UC-transferable courses at the CC. That's not to say that students who transfer to Berkeley and UCLA from the CC's can't do well (plenty rise to the challenge). But high-achieving high school students should not be FORCED to start at the CC's by a blanket policy barring grant money from being used for freshman year at the UC's.

 

On 7/16/2018 at 8:13 PM, Liz CA said:

 

Well, this may be just the case because of this particularly well run CC but dh was told math classes anywhere else would be easy after having passed math at this CC - and he said later they were right. I have also heard of Berkeley that getting admitted may be tough but the coursework does not distinguish itself much from say Cal Poly or UC Davis and all of those have articulation agreements with local CCs.

Also, I don't know of anybody who was ever asked where they completed General Ed. I did not complete GE in this country. Nobody has ever cared as long as they can read my transcripts and verify the degrees I have.

As far as OP's concerns, I cannot really comment because it seems - after what I am reading here - that the quality of CCs varies so widely that indeed some people may not be able to be admitted to a 4-year university and this is very sad to me. A certain degree of academic standards should be found in all CCs across the country. In CA though, I have not ever heard that someone regretted not spending money on full tuition during the first 2 years or that they have not been able to transfer as long as they passed their classes with a reasonably good grade.

I think it’s a mixed bag. A friend who recently graduated from UCLA with a biology degree took science courses at our local CC (for some grad school prerequisites) and he said the CC was absolutely on par with UCLA. On the other hand, I took UC transferable English class as the same cc and I am sure it was less rigorous than any UC class would be. It was less rigorous than some middle school classes my kids took. I’m guessing the reason for the disparity is that the school has a very competitive nursing program, making the prerequisite classes rigorous. On the other hand, my English class was populated by at least 50% ESL students, who were incredibly hard working, but still lacked a lot of basic abilities. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, sassenach said:

I think it’s a mixed bag. A friend who recently graduated from UCLA with a biology degree took science courses at our local CC (for some grad school prerequisites) and he said the CC was absolutely on par with UCLA. On the other hand, I took UC transferable English class as the same cc and I am sure it was less rigorous than any UC class would be. It was less rigorous than some middle school classes my kids took. I’m guessing the reason for the disparity is that the school has a very competitive nursing program, making the prerequisite classes rigorous. On the other hand, my English class was populated by at least 50% ESL students, who were incredibly hard working, but still lacked a lot of basic abilities. 

My oldest took UC-transferable general biology spring semester and it was not remotely college level. I had been concerned going into it because she had never taken a real lab science course, only "kitchen science". She said that it was about the same level as Mr. Q advanced (which I would put at an honors jr. high or non-college prep high school level). I obviously didn't accompany her to the labs but judging from the textbook, I'm inclined to believe her assessment. Now it was not the biology for science or health majors but rather the one that satisfies IGETC (general ed for those of you not familiar with CA) for liberal arts or social science majors.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Crimson Wife said:

My oldest took UC-transferable general biology spring semester and it was not remotely college level. I had been concerned going into it because she had never taken a real lab science course, only "kitchen science". She said that it was about the same level as Mr. Q advanced (which I would put at an honors jr. high or non-college prep high school level). I obviously didn't accompany her to the labs but judging from the textbook, I'm inclined to believe her assessment. Now it was not the biology for science or health majors but rather the one that satisfies IGETC (general ed for those of you not familiar with CA) for liberal arts or social science majors.

 

Yes, there is a qualitative difference in courses that people take that are in their major and those that are just taken to satisfy certain GE requirements. Of course, I don't know which CC your dc attended and what their ranking is but chances are that this class was watered down for non-science majors.

Sort of like the "peanut butter brittle" class for chemistry for liberal arts majors. :)

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sassenach pointed out that I may have been wrong in saying that CA has a fee waiver across the board. I have not had time to thoroughly research this but Sassenach is right in that there are at least 2 categories, evidently labeled A and B. If you qualify for category A, the waiver is not tied to income but residency and you must fulfill one of the conditions of category B. If you fall into another category, your income may be a factor.

Perhaps someone else from CA can clarify this better. I gotta get some work stuff done and only quickly checked into this just now. Sorry for the misinformation in my earlier post. We always seemed to have qualified under category A so we never were asked about income.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/17/2018 at 10:44 AM, Quill said:

Because there is already bias against people from lower economic strata. If two college grads are applying for a job opening and one has lived a Vinyard Vines upper lifestyle, while the other scraped up from a hillbilly background to get to this position, the upper-lifestyle applicant has a greater likelihood of getting the job unless the hillbilly-cum-graduate can fakeout the hiring partner. 

1

I completely disagree with this statement.  I think probably just as many people root for the underdog, if not more.  When we were doing college interviews for our college, one question that we always asked was is there something difficult you had to overcome in life.  Why?  Because overcoming difficulties successfully breeds character and so yes, for the hillbilly applicant.  It is harder for a person of very limited resources to make it successfully through college and through life.  But people cheer that.   I do not hire people and never have but my husband has had a career of hiring, choosing for promotion, choosing people for awards, etc. And he has the exact opinion as I do- no favoritism to those who have it easy.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, scholastica said:

If accessibility due to cost is the issue, how are students who don't have the money up front or means to pay back a loan supposed to get the education they need?

As I suggested, one possibility is a loan that is forgiven if the student applies himself and is successfully passing his classes with a decent GPA. You can flesh it out by giving a grace period of one semester so students who started out floundering can turn their way around.

But I honestly do not see a need for taxpayers to fund tuition for students who are either not putting in the work or do not possess the necessary aptitude.

 

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...