Can we discuss the relative merits and drawbacks of tuition-free community college?

[Ginevra]

Governor Hogan has signed a bill, to take effect in 2019, permitting tuition-free access to community colleges in Maryland for those earning less than $125k household income per year, or $90k for single adults. This has been in the works for a while in my state, and I know similar programs are in place in other states, as well as practically free college in practice in other countries. 

I have mixed feelings about this and want to discuss how this plays out in reality, and would love insight from those experiencing it, or even if you just have some well-thought-out views about it. I would love to hear and maybe clarify my own views. 

I am worried that it further devalues the CC degree and that it exacerbates elitism and snobbery. There is already quite a bit of snobbery against CC in this area; I worry that it may carry over as young people attempt to enter the workforce with “only” their free CC degrees or certificates. 

But OTOH, this is certainly a great benefit to families of lesser means and I am very happy about the access this opens up for many. The CC is heavily used around here by homeschoolers and this doesn’t tend to be the most affluent population. So I am happy about the access it opens up. 

[fairfarmhand]

We have this in Tennessee. 

Things not so good: the biggest is that students who are not really interested in college sign Up for classes, attend for 2 months and then drop out. I think of all that wasted money. 

Our program is for all students who get a c average or higher regardless of income. However, there are stipulations. There are community service hours that are mandatory. Also it won’t give you cash if you have other scholarships. In other words, they look at your other scholarships and will give you money up to the full cost of tuition but nothing more. My dd dropped the scholarship because she didn’t need it due to her other funding and didn’t want the hassle of keeping up with the mandatory meetings, commUnity service hours, and paperwork. 

Also, it can be used toward an associates at a 4 year institution but not at the full cost, just the cost of cc. 

Our program features mandatory meetings and college mentors that students have to keep in touch with. 

 

[Guest]

@fairfarmhand how long has the TN program been in effect? I am wondering if there is a prejudice in the workforce against CC graduates. 

[SKL]

I would rather there be a nominal fee, just because people tend to have more buy-in / put in more effort if they are paying for it.

The option of work/study / community service may be comparable, provided it is required early on vs. avoided by drop-outs.

What I like is that it shows our community really believes in education.  Also of course it opens an option for those who don't have other viable options.

I'm not a big fan of the required meetings / mentoring etc.  Adults should be treated like adults.  Many of the students probably have more life experience than the mentors.  If they ask for assistance, or their grades put them on probation, that's a different matter.

[scholastica]

There are European countries with free university education and it doesn't seem to have affected the perception of the degrees there. I don't know if that would translate here. I don't think the fact that it is "free" will affect it too much. It's not really free, just tax-subsidized. Someone is still paying for it, just not the student. It's essentially a state-funded scholarship, just not based on merit. Is my Ds's degree going to be viewed as less than because he earned a bunch of scholarships? I hope not. Also, a lot of states have stipulations and income limits. So, not all the degrees awarded by any given institution are "free", they're just more available. I do think that the problem comes in with the students. They don't necessarily have as much motivation to do well, since they are not footing the bill.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, scholastica said:

There are European countries with free university education and it doesn't seem to have affected the perception of the degrees there. I don't know if that would translate here. I don't think the fact that it is "free" will affect it too much. It's not really free, just tax-subsidized. Someone is still paying for it, just not the student. It's essentially a state-funded scholarship, just not based on merit. Is my Ds's degree going to be viewed as less than because he earned a bunch of scholarships? I hope not. Also, a lot of states have stipulations and income limits. So, not all the degrees awarded by any given institution are "free", they're just more available. I do think that the problem comes in with the students. They don't necessarily have as much motivation to do well, since they are not footing the bill.

I think the free university education, at least in France, has affected the perception and legitimate quality of the degrees there. The young college grad age cohort has high unemployment. And when my dd was there, there were constant protests from students against the colleges. However, I am certainly no authority on the matter and I don’t know if that is consistent in other European countries with tuition-free unis. 

Of course I am aware that it is subsidized, not “free”. But public elementary, middle and high schools are also subsidized, not “free”; libraries are subsidized, not “free”, parks are subsidized, not “free” - we still use the word free in those cases, so I see no point in emphasizing that it isn’t really “free.” 

The thing about the income limits is that it seems to me that it emphasizes economic class to a greater degree than is already in place. If I know ten families whose children are going to CC, and I ask them why that was their chosen college, nine will say because it saves money/is the most affordable option. (The extra one might have a reason like was not accepted at a 4yr school or that child is not suited to being away from the family.) In sum, people who can afford to send kid to a 4-yr uni are less likely to choose CC, which leads to a strong economic disparity between those who go to CC vs. go to a 4-yr school. This will only be more true, I would think, if anyone over a certain income bracket cannot get the free tuition. 

[Liz CA]

CA residents have a tuition waiver for in state community colleges but there are several excellent ones. AA/AS degrees do not seem to be devalued by this and many people move on to a four year university in better financial shape since CC was free (except books, parking, health fee, etc.)

There is a difference in educational quality from one CC to another but I have never seen a blanket rejection of degrees received at CCs here because they do not charge tuition.

ETA: This waiver is not tied to income in CA but residency.

[teachermom2834]

1 hour ago, fairfarmhand said:

We have this in Tennessee. 

Things not so good: the biggest is that students who are not really interested in college sign Up for classes, attend for 2 months and then drop out. I think of all that wasted money. 

Our program is for all students who get a c average or higher regardless of income. However, there are stipulations. There are community service hours that are mandatory. Also it won’t give you cash if you have other scholarships. In other words, they look at your other scholarships and will give you money up to the full cost of tuition but nothing more. My dd dropped the scholarship because she didn’t need it due to her other funding and didn’t want the hassle of keeping up with the mandatory meetings, commUnity service hours, and paperwork. 

Also, it can be used toward an associates at a 4 year institution but not at the full cost, just the cost of cc. 

Our program features mandatory meetings and college mentors that students have to keep in touch with. 

 

I'm in TN. One immediate effect has been that the dual enrollment grant from the state was decreased a bit as well as the HOPE scholarship for four year schools. So, my dc actually took a hit in funding because they utilized the de grant. Mine went out of state for college so they weren't going to access the HOPE anyway. But, there is the issue that the funding had to come from somewhere and the students going straight to 4 yr or doing de in high school were impacted.

I don't know that it will devalue the degree because the students still need to do the work. I think many sign up after high school because it is free but only the motivated will actually finish and fulfill the requirements to finish the degree.

I'm still working out how I feel about it. 

Also about snobbery- in our area we saw better students choosing cc simply because it was free. In fact, people continually tell us how dumb we are not to go send dc to cc because it is free. So we haven’t seen that at all. But TN and MD are very different culturally!

 

[SKL]

The thing to remember about the foreign "free" universities is that access is still limited based on prior school performance.  The potential for "late bloomers" / non-traditional students is nothing like what we have.

When I think CC, I think all sorts of non-traditional paths, i.e. people who did not go to college right after high school, but have job and life experience and obligations that younger students don't have.  I also think of kids who didn't put their all into school through 12th grade and need a less advanced / remedial path to get them caught up.  The really good students will generally look for ways to attend more traditional universities, as the CC (at least in my area) is generally at a lower educational standard to accommodate their target audience.  Making CC "free" for the traditional college-bound probably still won't make it their first choice, unless they can't get acceptable financing for the traditional path.

I'm not sure I would call it an elitist thing.  It's just a reality if CC is at a lower standard (it is in my area, maybe this varies regionally).  Obviously where you went to college doesn't tell an employer everything about you.  But it does tell something, and I don't have a problem with that.

[DawnM]

I would rather see 4 year college tuition lowered than free CC.  I think CC is very low cost already, at least in most states.  

Our CC is about $75-$80 per credit hour.  My oldest did some DE for "free."  We still paid fees and books but not tuition.  

 

[Crimson Wife]

As a taxpayer, I'd rather see a guarantee that all low-to-moderate income students who graduate from a CC with a decent GPA can finish their bachelor's at one of the state schools cost-free. I think making the LAST 2 years of college free rather than the first 2 years would cut down on wasted resources because it would only go to students who have demonstrated the ability and work ethic to handle college. Right now we waste a TON of money on students who don't last more than a semester or two.

[scholastica]

26 minutes ago, Quill said:

I think the free university education, at least in France, has affected the perception and legitimate quality of the degrees there. The young college grad age cohort has high unemployment. And when my dd was there, there were constant protests from students against the colleges. However, I am certainly no authority on the matter and I don’t know if that is consistent in other European countries with tuition-free unis. 

Of course I am aware that it is subsidized, not “free”. But public elementary, middle and high schools are also subsidized, not “free”; libraries are subsidized, not “free”, parks are subsidized, not “free” - we still use the word free in those cases, so I see no point in emphasizing that it isn’t really “free.” 

The thing about the income limits is that it seems to me that it emphasizes economic class to a greater degree than is already in place. If I know ten families whose children are going to CC, and I ask them why that was their chosen college, nine will say because it saves money/is the most affordable option. (The extra one might have a reason like was not accepted at a 4yr school or that child is not suited to being away from the family.) In sum, people who can afford to send kid to a 4-yr uni are less likely to choose CC, which leads to a strong economic disparity between those who go to CC vs. go to a 4-yr school. This will only be more true, I would think, if anyone over a certain income bracket cannot get the free tuition. 

How would anyone know if a person got the subsidy or not? It seems like there would still be enough paying students that it mute that effect somewhat. We do have a program in my state for free cc if you meet certain requirements in high school. I’ve know plenty of people who use that to get gen eds out of the way before transferring to a four year or to get their terminal degree. I’ve never heard anyone disparage the CC degree here. We do, however, have excellent CCs here.

[Carol in Cal.]

We have had this in CA for a long time, and it's not particularly means tested, either.

Typical uses are cheap trade school equivalents, inexpensive first two years of a 4 year degree, college classes for high school kids, reentry/second chance/nontraditional paths, and 'enrichment' classes for adults.  Re. that last one--I have taken, for instance, two semesters of weaving as art instruction at a CA CC, and also a summer semester in which we learned and produced Mozart's Requiem, and although I did not stick with it, i once signed up for a volleyball class that met on Saturday mornings.

Disadvantages--classes don't 'go' unless they are pretty fully subscribed, so they can be cancelled a few weeks into the semester.  If you're counting on them to meet degree requirements, this is extremely problematic.  Also, I imagine that it is expensive for the state, but we are pretty much used to that.  It's one of the better things we spend our excessive state income tax on, frankly, and I'd like to keep it going.

 

[Liz CA]

2 minutes ago, Crimson Wife said:

As a taxpayer, I'd rather see a guarantee that all low-to-moderate income students who graduate from a CC with a decent GPA can finish their bachelor's at one of the state schools cost-free. I think making the LAST 2 years of college free rather than the first 2 years would cut down on wasted resources because it would only go to students who have demonstrated the ability and work ethic to handle college. Right now we waste a TON of money on students who don't last more than a semester or two.

 

Yes, I can see this rationale. The other side is that if CC costs money, many low-income students or students from backgrounds that do no encourage higher education feel they cannot get started because of cost or having to navigate financial aid. With a free CC, they are offered at least an AS/AA degree and it may be better than no degree at all. Even if they cannot immediately continue, years later they may be in a position to get their 4-year degree without having to start at the beginning.

The drop-out rate is an issue and varies from one institution to another. Theoretically, a fee could be assessed for those that do not finish a semester but how would it be enforced / collected? This would likely create only more bureaucracy and more hurdles down the road when immature people are now mature enough to handle college and want to re-enter only to find out they now owe back tuition.

[Liz CA]

10 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

We have had this in CA for a long time, and it's not particularly means tested, either.

Typical uses are cheap trade school equivalents, inexpensive first two years of a 4 year degree, college classes for high school kids, reentry/second chance/nontraditional paths, and 'enrichment' classes for adults.  Re. that last one--I have taken, for instance, two semesters of weaving as art instruction at a CA CC, and also a summer semester in which we learned and produced Mozart's Requiem, and although I did not stick with it, i once signed up for a volleyball class that met on Saturday mornings.

Disadvantages--classes don't 'go' unless they are pretty fully subscribed, so they can be cancelled a few weeks into the semester.  If you're counting on them to meet degree requirements, this is extremely problematic.  Also, I imagine that it is expensive for the state, but we are pretty much used to that.  It's one of the better things we spend our excessive state income tax on, frankly, and I'd like to keep it going.

 

 

In areas where the CC is pretty much the sprinboard to the local university and there are partnerships / easy transition agreements, etc., classes for GE seem to fill up quickly. Don't know about enrichment classes. Years ago, dh did his GE requirements at his local CC which happened to be known as one of the better ones. He was just lucky he lived there but there was never a single class canceled due to low enrollment but often the opposite was true. This could be different in other parts. When ds went to a different CC, he had no issues getting through the GE classes without any being cancelled. This may largely depend on area.

[regentrude]

In Germany, higher education has always been free to the students. Degrees are highly respected.

The problems the university system has have nothing to do with this; they stem from the admissions model (anybody who passes the college prep highschool final has to be admitted, and universities do not select their own students, which means quality profiles cannot develop as they can in the US. ), and from the misguided adoption of the Bologna protocol and the abolishing of the prestigious five year diploma degrees in favor of a watered down bachelor. None of which have anything to do with the financing model.

[regentrude]

12 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Disadvantages--classes don't 'go' unless they are pretty fully subscribed

This is the case at our university as well, which is by no means free. Most institutions cannot afford to run classes that generate too little revenue and tie up instructors.

However, we cancel before the beginning of the semester if minimum student numbers are not reached.

[Liz CA]

3 minutes ago, regentrude said:

In Germany, higher education has always been free to the students. Degrees are highly respected.

The problems the university system has have nothing to do with this; they stem from the admissions model (anybody who passes the college prep highschool final has to be admitted, and universities do not select their own students, which means quality profiles cannot develop as they can in the US. ), and from the misguided adoption of the Bologna protocol and the abolishing of the prestigious five year diploma degrees in favor of a watered down bachelor. None of which have anything to do with the financing model.

 

In Germany, students cannot be turned down when they apply to a uni provided they have finished / passed Abitur? Didn't know this. I thought there was an admission process similar to US. Is the Numerus Clausus still a thing?

[regentrude]

I like the idea of free college, but would prefer if applicants are screened for admission so that resources are not spent on students who have very little chance of succeeding. I'd rather like to see resources spent on free vocational training for those who do not have the academic aptitude than filling colleges with underprepared and unmotivated students who go just because it's free.

[Bootsie]

5 minutes ago, regentrude said:

In Germany, higher education has always been free to the students. Degrees are highly respected.

The problems the university system has have nothing to do with this; they stem from the admissions model (anybody who passes the college prep highschool final has to be admitted, and universities do not select their own students, which means quality profiles cannot develop as they can in the US. ), and from the misguided adoption of the Bologna protocol and the abolishing of the prestigious five year diploma degrees in favor of a watered down bachelor. None of which have anything to do with the financing model.

Is there also a difference in Germany that students at the university are more in a "sink-or-swim" environment?  It seems to me that there is a lot less hand holding and if the student doesn't pass exams it is not viewed as the university or the professor's fault.  In a number of US schools, promotion of professors has become highly tied to student evaluations; state funding can depend on the number of students who are passing classes and making progress toward degree completion.  These things lead to high grades and high pass rates regardless of student performance (and in the end lead to degrees not being highly respected.)

 

[regentrude]

1 minute ago, Liz CA said:

In Germany, students cannot be turned down when they apply to a uni provided they have finished / passed Abitur? Didn't know this. I thought there was an admission process similar to US. Is the Numerus Clausus still a thing?

For most subjects and most universities, students cannot be turned down once they pass the Abitur. They don't "apply", the just sign up.

Historically, the numerus clausus was restricted to select subjects like medicine and law (for those unfamiliar with the German system: med and law school are not grad schools where students go after finishing undergrad; students start from their first semester on the path to a med or law degree). In recent years, universities have been permitted to introduce limited n.c. for some other subjects. But for most students, you just register for classes and that's it. Which means universities cannot limit the number of students according to the available resources, which leads to large classes and full courses. 

[Carol in Cal.]

3 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I like the idea of free college, but would prefer if applicants are screened for admission so that resources are not spent on students who have very little chance of succeeding. I'd rather like to see resources spent on free vocational training for those who do not have the academic aptitude than filling colleges with underprepared and unmotivated students who go just because it's free.

In our system they aren't screened for admission, but ARE screened for placement.  There are remedial English and math classes, and they are prerequisites for college level ones if the screening test results call for that.

[regentrude]

Just now, jdahlquist said:

Is there also a difference in Germany that students at the university are more in a "sink-or-swim" environment?  It seems to me that there is a lot less hand holding and if the student doesn't pass exams it is not viewed as the university or the professor's fault.  In a number of US schools, promotion of professors has become highly tied to student evaluations; state funding can depend on the number of students who are passing classes and making progress toward degree completion.  These things lead to high grades and high pass rates regardless of student performance (and in the end lead to degrees not being highly respected.)

Absolutely. There is no hand holding. Students are considered adults and are expected to seek out whatever resources they need to be successful. The professor's job is to present the material, not coax underprepared students through the course.

Students also don't get unlimited chances of do-overs (not like here, where we have people fail calculus 1 five or more times and it's fine as long as they pay);  if you fail the same exam three times, you get dropped from the major.

[Katy]

I think it's a great idea in areas where community colleges have guaranteed transfer agreement programs with state universities.  There are some states where the community colleges are so sub-par the classes won't transfer.  I also think it's a good idea for vocational programs.

In areas where community college is only for vocational programs and no credits transfer, it seems like a waste of money.

[catz]

I'm in the upper Midwest.  We do not have state wide free CC.  However, our urban area has free CC for the urban public school students and surrounding districts under a certain income level.  And free dual enrollment for qualifying kids.  My kid is doing the dual enrollment program.   I think there is some community service required for the free CC program which I totally support and pretty stringent grade requirements to continue.  I do think you value things more with some buy in.  

Honestly, I haven't seen a huge down side.  Most of the students who get their terminal degree at the CC are applying for different types of jobs that people with 4 year degrees.  Those who transfer end up with a degree from their 4 year school and there are excellent transfer agreements with our public colleges and universities and even some of the private colleges in the area.   Our community college class quality is fantastic.  Teachers have PhDs and are accessible and actually enjoy teaching.  Many of them are also teaching at much more expensive private colleges in town.   I know CC's can vary in quality but ours is great.  

I've actually seen more of a trend that it is smart to keep college debt low.  More people are using these programs.  I do think the NE has an elitist bent when it comes to talking about colleges.   I think graduating with minimal debt is a much better thing than high debt and fancy name college.  You have much more power as a new graduate without being burdened by heavy debt.  I do think federal student loan limits are a reasonable guideline.

I am 100% in favor of funding public 4 years at all levels better and making them much more affordable for all.   Our flagship options are 30K a year and are terrible with financial aid.  

[scholastica]

53 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

In our system they aren't screened for admission, but ARE screened for placement.  There are remedial English and math classes, and they are prerequisites for college level ones if the screening test results call for that.

There is an abysmal graduation rate for those who start out in those classes, though. So much so that one community college changed their system to enrolling remedial students in the regular college level class and also an additional class for remediation at the same time. 

[Carol in Cal.]

9 minutes ago, scholastica said:

There is an abysmal graduation rate for those start out in those classes, though. So much so that one community college changed their system to enrolling remedial students in the regular college level class and also an additional class for remediation at the same time. 

 

I can't imagine that working for math, and I think it would drag down a typical writing/literature class a great deal.

I think that a better approach would be to have the remedial classes not be so much like high school ones--rather, be focussed forward and self-paced to some extent, with a lot of individual tutoring available and strongly advertised.

[SKL]

Regarding more subsidies for all university students - the problem I see is that university education is way overpriced, and additional subsidies will just make it easier for tuition to be increased.  Ultimately it really helps nobody (or very few people).

[madteaparty]

Doesn’t Maryland have a somewhat decent public college system?

I am a strong believer in public education, and I’m thrilled my tax dollars go to this. (My friend and I joke that our non degree seeking middle schoolers are the only ones paying full price at SUNY.)

i just wish the quality was higher, that’s all. I’m happy I pay for public school but my kids will now be privately educated as long as I can afford it.

Because we have this tiered college system, much like the tiered high  school system that what passes for a college education someplace is equivalent to a high school education elsewhere. 

[rutamattatt]

Also a TN resident.  We live within spitting distance of a CC that has a solid academic reputation.  DS will probably do some DE classes there next year, and he is seriously considering the 2 years of CC there before going to university.  From an academic standpoint he could go straight to a 4 year university (and that is not off the table), but his logic is that he can get his basic courses completed at the CC free while maintaining his current job and saving up $$$ for his final 2 years or more depending on what program he does.  

Dh and I are committed to helping the kids get a college degree (if that is what they want) with only a little student loan debt.  DH came out with a HGUE amount, and while he has a good paying job from a top five school in his field, it is a serious chunk of change.  DH has been intentional about this for years, but it feels nearly impossible to afford 4 year universities/private colleges anymore.  This free CC option for us means we can more easily help our two potential college bound students end up with less debt while also ease some of the financial stress for our non-college bound SN child. 

I agree with a PP that a huge factor in the value of this is how many universities will accept the 2 years of CC credits.  We are fortunate in that the CC near us has a long list of schools accepting their credits, and more universities are added to the list regularly.  

[scholastica]

1 minute ago, Carol in Cal. said:

 

I can't imagine that working for math, and I think it would drag down a typical writing/literature class a great deal.

I think that a better approach would be to have the remedial classes not be so much like high school ones--rather, be focussed forward and self-paced to some extent, with a lot of individual tutoring available and strongly advertised.

The co-requisite classes do just that but related directly to the content in the college level classes. Here’s An article detailing the various approaches to bridging the gaps while not creating extra hurdles.

[KungFuPanda]

I don’t see a problem. Maryland is pretty good about direct transfers. You take your AA with you but your diploma will have your 4-year university’s name on it. I’m not seeing how that is devalued when you still have to pass those junior and senior classes to graduate. There are a lot of cases where the same professors are teaching in multiple locations anyway, so it’s not like you get a watered down version at cc. 

Our taxes are high enough in MD that it would be really nice if this applied to all students. It would effectively cut the cost of a bachelors degree in half. With that income cap where it is, a lot of families who could really use this will still remain unaffected. 

[gstharr]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

I like the idea of free college, but would prefer if applicants are screened for admission so that resources are not spent on students who have very little chance of succeeding. I'd rather like to see resources spent on free vocational training for those who do not have the academic aptitude than filling colleges with underprepared and unmotivated students who go just because it's free.

I went to community college near the end of great GI Bill benefits.  The first 3-4 weeks of each semester the classes were packed.  After, the GIs got proof of registration for their benefits, the campus cleared out. 

[EmseB]

3 minutes ago, gstharr said:

I went to community college near the end of great GI Bill benefits.  The first 3-4 weeks of each semester the classes were packed.  After, the GIs got proof of registration for their benefits, the campus cleared out. 

2

But if they fail the class and it's required for graduation, they've used up some of their benefits that they can't get back.

Interestingly, most people I was in the service with (and myself included) used their GI Bill to...get a degree by going to school. I mean, I'd imagine there are some scammers out there, but not enough to clear out a campus with the number of vets not showing up for class.

[EmseB]

As far as "free" anything goes, I think it's helpful to have something invested. You know how the advice is if you run a field trip for homeschoolers, even if the trip is free, to charge *something* for registration so people will show up because they paid for it? I think of it that way. But maybe having to buy one's own books is enough incentive?

CC was really my only option for college after high school without racking up tens of thousands in debt, and I just couldn't make myself do it because to me it seemed like high school part 2, with less accountability and I was already doing the minimum so I knew it would be a disaster for my undisciplined self. Making the tuition free would have just been wasting other people's money in my case.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, madteaparty said:

Doesn’t Maryland have a somewhat decent public college system?

I am a strong believer in public education, and I’m thrilled my tax dollars go to this. (My friend and I joke that our non degree seeking middle schoolers are the only ones paying full price at SUNY.)

i just wish the quality was higher, that’s all. I’m happy I pay for public school but my kids will now be privately educated as long as I can afford it.

Because we have this tiered college system, much like the tiered high  school system that what passes for a college education someplace is equivalent to a high school education elsewhere. 

Yes. Most of the state public colege are well regarded and in-state tuition is much more affordable than out or private. 

A few of the CCs also have a very good reputation. 

[Dmmetler]

Also in TN. One difference I see is that there are a decent number of pretty capable kids starting at CC for financial reasons or if they don’t quite know what they want to do, and that there really is no penalty on scholarships for transferring.vs starting as a freshman at most state U’s. The result is that there are honors sections of many classes and the level of instruction is quite good. My suspicion is that the local CC is a better fit for DD now due to the students coming in for the TN Promise than it would have been for a similar child a few years prior. I will admit it frustrates me that practically the only person who cannot get free tuition to that CC is DD! 

 

DD says that one thing she likes about CC classes over high school ones is that at the CC, people who don’t want to be in class, simply aren’t. They might show up for the final, but for the most part, the class is the people who want to be there and participate.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Katy said:

I think it's a great idea in areas where community colleges have guaranteed transfer agreement programs with state universities.  There are some states where the community colleges are so sub-par the classes won't transfer.  I also think it's a good idea for vocational programs.

In areas where community college is only for vocational programs and no credits transfer, it seems like a waste of money.

Yeah, MD has guaranteed transfer agreements to state publics, BUT I do know that some majors reject certain classes specifically, for example, the engineering programs at Uni. of MD College Park may not accept certain classes i to their major from CC. I have heard of students repeating classes for this reason, though they do not have to repeat all their Gen Eds. This might not be so if one actually obtained the a

Associates, but presumably it would still have to be a compatible Associates in order to not repeat classes. 

[Caroline]

Georgia has a HOPE scholarship for four year schools and a HOPE grant for vocational training. Universities in Georgia have a better reputation than 25 years ago when this all started. My oldest DS went to Georgia Tech and never paid a dime of tuition. (We paid $$ in fees and room and board, though.) It is a great deal for in state residents. You do still have to be admitted to the universities. Free tuition in Georgia has made our universities better. My son’s girlfriend used the HOPE grant to get certified as an x-ray tech. I have several former students getting 2 year nursing degrees this way.

Being from Maryland, I know several people who did two years at HoCo Community College or Catonsville and then transferred to one of the four year schools. Even recently a few friends have gone back for a change of career, and their education seems great. 

 

[SereneHome]

I am very much against govt funded "free" education after K-12.  I can come up with a whole bunch "cons" and not many "pros". In this particular case -

It can be seen as just an extension of high school, allowing kids not to take it seriously, which will lead to colossal waste of resources

I can see how 4 yr universities might not change their admission process bc of much larger number of kids only coming for the last 2 yrs

I can see how 4 yr universities will raise their tuition costs, again, bc they will loose a number of students for the first two years, but they still have to make $$ somewhere

There are more, some of it has already been mentioned. 

If govt wants to give people "free" education, let them work with all the colleges and universities to actually lower the cost of tuition.  Accross the board.  For everyone.

There are already plenty of big and small scholarships out there for students who are truly interested in pursing their education further.

 

[Hilltopmom]

I’m in NY- we now have “free tuition” for families making under $125,000. We qualify.

But it’s only the “tuition”, not fees, housing, etc. Even at the CC you still end up paying a few thousand in fees & expenses. For living on campus, it’s a tiny fraction of a dent in what we owe. And other scholarships are taken out of it, so we can’t really use much of it.

but I’m in favor & for a kid living at home going to the CC, I think it’d be good

[Scarlett]

Nothing is going to change the basic elitism of a segment of our society.  If a kid from poverty can get a free education even if it is JUST a CC 2 year degree....well good on him.  Sure some kids will waste resources but many others will benefit. I would prefer they treat it more like a grant in which if you drop out or fail you have to pay the money back.  

[Crimson Wife]

44 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

 There are already plenty of big and small scholarships out there for students who are truly interested in pursing their education further.

There aren't a lot of scholarships available in my state for CC graduates to finish their bachelor's at one of the state's 4 year schools. I think it is outrageous that a low-income student could graduate with a 4.0 in his/her associate's and then wind up tens of thousands of dollars in debt to finish the bachelor's. As a taxpayer, I think such a student is WAY more deserving of assistance with college costs than high school graduates with lackluster academic preparation and work ethic who would qualify for free CC tuition under most plans.

[KungFuPanda]

2 hours ago, EmseB said:

But if they fail the class and it's required for graduation, they've used up some of their benefits that they can't get back.

Interestingly, most people I was in the service with (and myself included) used their GI Bill to...get a degree by going to school. I mean, I'd imagine there are some scammers out there, but not enough to clear out a campus with the number of vets not showing up for class.

I also never heard of this phenomenon. Part of the reason many people join the service is to pay for college. My husband and I both used the GI Bill and the Army college fund to get through college without facing years of debt afterwards. 

2 hours ago, EmseB said:

As far as "free" anything goes, I think it's helpful to have something invested. You know how the advice is if you run a field trip for homeschoolers, even if the trip is free, to charge *something* for registration so people will show up because they paid for it? I think of it that way. But maybe having to buy one's own books is enough incentive?

CC was really my only option for college after high school without racking up tens of thousands in debt, and I just couldn't make myself do it because to me it seemed like high school part 2, with less accountability and I was already doing the minimum so I knew it would be a disaster for my undisciplined self. Making the tuition free would have just been wasting other people's money in my case.

I’m not sure free college would make someone a worse student than free high school. The difference is everyone isn’t legally required to go. It could make a real difference to the interested student who ended up in a crappy school district. 

[fairfarmhand]

5 hours ago, Quill said:

@fairfarmhand how long has the TN program been in effect? I am wondering if there is a prejudice in the workforce against CC graduates. 

Only for about 2 years. So it' still very young.

[SereneHome]

44 minutes ago, Crimson Wife said:

There aren't a lot of scholarships available in my state for CC graduates to finish their bachelor's at one of the state's 4 year schools. I think it is outrageous that a low-income student could graduate with a 4.0 in his/her associate's and then wind up tens of thousands of dollars in debt to finish the bachelor's. As a taxpayer, I think such a student is WAY more deserving of assistance with college costs than high school graduates with lackluster academic preparation and work ethic who would qualify for free CC tuition under most plans.

 

I actually meant scholarships for CC.  I know that some business around my town give $1K scholarships to kids.  While it might seem like nothing for a 4 yr school, I think it can go along way in CC

And I actually liked idea you mentioned before - subsidizing the last 2 yrs.  By then less serious students already weeded out so I do think it would be much better use of funds.

[regentrude]

2 hours ago, SereneHome said:

There are already plenty of big and small scholarships out there for students who are truly interested in pursing their education further.

Plenty? Not nearly enough.

[Pen]

I wish it would happen in my state. I think. 

Several top level universities give full rides to students with parents in more or less similar income ranges without seeming to cheapen the degree. 

And excellent universities in parts of Europe where there is not a fee to attend are not cheapened degrees therefore. 

[Liz CA]

5 hours ago, rutamattatt said:

I agree with a PP that a huge factor in the value of this is how many universities will accept the 2 years of CC credits.  We are fortunate in that the CC near us has a long list of schools accepting their credits, and more universities are added to the list regularly.  

 

This is really foreign to me - that a state university does not accept credit from a CC. This has never been a problem here. Now if a student wants to go to a UC in CA, the transfer requirements at the CC are stricter and the counselors point this out right away. A student who wants to keep his / her options open for state university as well as UC takes the track for the UC and seems to be well prepared and readily accepted.

[regentrude]

5 hours ago, rutamattatt said:

I agree with a PP that a huge factor in the value of this is how many universities will accept the 2 years of CC credits.  We are fortunate in that the CC near us has a long list of schools accepting their credits, and more universities are added to the list regularly.  

I have not heard of universities not accepting CC credits. The list would be universities with which the CC has an articulation agreement, i.e. where the course equivalency has been evaluated and the course is guaranteed to transfer automatically. That does not mean other universities do not accept the credit; it just means that they have not evaluated the syllabus. The student will need to submit documentation to the university's academic department so that the course equivalency can be evaluated on an individual basis.