Feingold Diet

[Pen]

2 hours ago, Moved On said:

I will not be making this into a long thread updating on our progress. I am still experimenting, getting ready to start after our growing season ends. I have seen the difference in my son's hyperactivity, focus, and sleep among other things, and I have also seen some less obvious changes in my oldest as well. The experimenting has proven to me that we do have issues with salicylates and that following the diet is a wise decision in our case.

The main reason I am posting, though, is not to share progress and my findings, but rather to point out to those that have tried or are trying the diet through free resources and websites, that there's a lot of contradictory information out there. Before getting the membership and gaining access to the food and shoping lists from Feingold, I had started eliminating foods like dates, figs, and coconut, having read in a website that they were high on salicylates. Well, the Feingold Food List has all three of those in stage 1 of the diet, meaning the acceptable foods to start out the diet with.

This is something I felt compelled to share as it is so important when we are saying, I followed the Feingold diet, but the person is not using official resources from Feingold. And the results, naturally, will not be the same.

 

Different batches of foods may test differently over time leading to different lists giving different guidelines.  different ways of deciding what foods to eliminate may be used— such as a food could be high per gram, but if only generally used in spice quantities it could be ok. There may also be confusion and differences based on different forms of a food having different salicylate levels. 

For example, raw figs are relatively low for salicylate, but dry figs are quite high. Possibly the paid material you got had in mind raw figbeing ok, and the free one had in mind dried fig not being okay during the elimination period. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Pen said:

 

Different batches of foods may test differently over time leading to different lists giving different guidelines.  different ways of deciding what foods to eliminate may be used— such as a food could be high per gram, but if only generally used in spice quantities it could be ok. There may also be confusion and differences based on different forms of a food having different salicylate levels. 

For example, raw figs are relatively low for salicylate, but dry figs are quite high. Possibly the paid material you got had in mind raw figbeing ok, and the free one had in mind dried fig not being okay during the elimination period. 

 

Per the Feingold Food List:

Quote

Acceptable fruits can be fresh, frozen, canned, or dried.

I also found some fruits that were supposedly acceptable (from free websites) and found out the hard way that they were not in the stage one acceptable fruits. Feingold releases updated lists every 3 months (one per season) and post urgent alerts if a prepackaged product has changed ingredients. They follow all that and come in contact with the manufacturers from what I understand. They also encourage their members to let them know if they see a change on the ingredients list of products that are on the list.

[Pen]

15 hours ago, Moved On said:

 

Per the Feingold Food List:

I also found some fruits that were supposedly acceptable (from free websites) and found out the hard way that they were not in the stage one acceptable fruits. Feingold releases updated lists every 3 months (one per season) and post urgent alerts if a prepackaged product has changed ingredients. They follow all that and come in contact with the manufacturers from what I understand. They also encourage their members to let them know if they see a change on the ingredients list of products that are on the list.

 

If it were me, and I were trying this,  I’d probably use the most restrictive of Feingold.org AND other high salicylate foods lists during first 4 weeks, and avoid what is on the Feingold.org lists AND what is on other lists. 

And/Or perhaps call them as a member and ask about the discrepancies. 

For anyone helped by the Feingold diet plan (or any variation of it) that will be huge. And huge for any family that has a child who has even a partial improvement  that improves their ability to do life  

Anecdotally there are a number of people who have experienced improvements using some form of Feingold. Statistically however, there is relatively little proof of help. But even as within people who have gotten the paid for lists and materials there may be great variations in what the actual foods eaten were what has helped.  Thus, it may not just be that people helped or not were doing a Feingold.org program or not, but may be related to other differences both in exactly what is being done and in the exact child  

I think Feingold himself believed that it could be very individual and that his list was merely what had helped a number of his patients. 

Edited July 29, 2018 by Pen
Autocorrect problems

[Guest]

Pen, I think you would have to understand how the diet works first and foremost! If you look at the free sites you will see posts of people complaining about inconsistencies between sources. The diet states that for stage one you need to eat low salicylate foods. The Feingold website, since they are the true followers of the Feingold diet and spend money on the research, are the most accurate as far as I am concerned. If I tried to combine the info from all these sites then we would be going on a starvation diet LOL! Also, know that when a manufacturer makes a prepackaged product that includes colors or preservatives etc. in lower amounts than the guidelines of the FDA, they are not required to list it. Some people, just like with gluten, may react to even small amounts of these chemicals, and the Feingold lists give that info as well. Their lists are over 400 pages long and they do the research, so guess who I will be putting my trust in ☺️ ?

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Moved On said:

Pen, I think you would have to understand how the diet works first and foremost! 

 

Well, actually, no, I don’t have to. 

Quote

If you look at the free sites you will see posts of people complaining about inconsistencies between sources. The diet states that for stage one you need to eat low salicylate foods. The Feingold website, since they are the true followers of the Feingold diet and spend money on the research, are the most accurate as far as I am concerned. If I tried to combine the info from all these sites then we would be going on a starvation diet LOL! Also, know that when a manufacturer makes a prepackaged product that includes colors or preservatives etc. in lower amounts than the guidelines of the FDA, they are not required to list it. Some people, just like with gluten, may react to even small amounts of these chemicals, and the Feingold lists give that info as well. Their lists are over 400 pages long and they do the research, so guess who I will be putting my trust in ☺️ ?

 

It is starting to sound like a religion with “true followers”  and heretical offshoots  ?

Anyway, I hope it will make a huge difference for your family!

I avoid packaged manufactured food products in the first place. Hence no artificial dyes, preservatives etc.   My guess is most of the 400 pages you purchased deals with commercial products that I don’t use. 

A reasonable listing of common whole natural foods of negligible ( and there are plenty of whole foods with negligible salicylate content not to starve during a 4 week elimination diet period) low, medium, high, very high salicylate content can fit on one to four pages. 

[Pen]

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/86061042855029349/?amp_client_id=CLIENT_ID(_)&mweb_unauth_id=e6a11abc04834d368178ee2adea73318

 

I don’t know if with my troubles linking the above will work to show a picture of “Feingold approved” stage 1 foods— much of which looks like packaged junk, snacks, and desserts. I found it rather sad.  ETA especially the Coca-cola even though farther back than organic canned peas stood out rather prominently  

I wonder if Dr Feingold himself would approve or be rolling in his grave. 

 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Pen said:

 

Well, actually, no, I don’t have to. 

It is starting to sound like a religion with “true followers”  and heretical offshoots  ?

Anyway, I hope it will make a huge difference for your family!

I avoid packaged manufactured food products in the first place. Hence no artificial dyes, preservatives etc.   My guess is most of the 400 pages you purchased deals with commercial products that I don’t use. 

A reasonable listing of common whole natural foods of negligible ( and there are plenty of whole foods with negligible salicylate content not to starve during a 4 week elimination diet period) low, medium, high, very high salicylate content can fit on one to four pages. 

 

Not really! If it is, trust me, I won't be a part of it LOL. I hadn't even seen the page you linked, and I don't do Facebook so I'm not a part of that group either. I haven't even signed into my membership to tell you the truth. All I wanted was the guide to the diet and the food lists. I cook from scratch,  but I still buy certain ingredients like dairy-free butter, nut milk, oil, spices, herbs,etc. We do need main ingredients to cook with ?. So I wanted to know how they rate them, even though I buy certified organic, GMO-free, etc. I will not continue once my one year's membership expires.  I already have what I need.

As for the other products, I remind myself that people from all walks of life follow the diets, and not everyone is able or even interested in cooking from scratch. So I just take what is useful to me and ignore the rest ☺️

[Guest]

After 20 days, I decided that following the salicylate free part of the diet was not making much of a difference for us. We were still having our good days and our hyper and less focused days. We didn't do the full period mind you, I will point that out! But, living in Canada, I also had a difficult time finding certain products. And it didn't help my son's mood who was now frustrated from missing all these fruits that he likes, and trying to sneak from Dad's stash when I wasn't looking ?. And on top of that this has been our best growing season so far. Everything in our garden just exploded! I felt so mean keeping him away from it!

We are continuing with the no-additives part of the diet, but we were doing that already anyway. I just changed his probiotic again, as I have seen the most benefit from that with this boy, and we are continuing with the fish oil and iron (all in low doses). Everything else they get from a healthy diet. In the fall I will ask the doctor to run some testing again on the boys' iron levels and check for other possible vitamin deficiencies to be sure. Our iron supplement also includes B vitamins. We'll see how it goes!

He's been into this, making school time like real school, kick lately. I'm playing along LOL! It gets summer school done! He even calls me Mrs. (insert family name) LOL, he asks for bathroom breaks, we do recess, and ring the bell at the end of our lessons. I was going to paint two or three wall sections with chalkboard paint. I have bought the paint and it has been on my to-do list before we officially start our school year. I need to get going as I am rearranging our four bookcases in our schoolroom as well. Anyway, we'll continue with our CBT strategies for the rough times.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Guest

[Southern Ivy]

Moved On, 
Have you read the book Healing Without Hurting? 
We're following a lot of her suggestions for my daughter's ADHD, but her story started because of her son's autism. I know she had a lot of success with her son and with others. 

Also, have you looked into the Nemecheck Protocol? I ran across this with one of the parents in this group, but have seen it a lot in my FB groups as well. 

Edited August 21, 2018 by Southern Ivy

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Southern Ivy said:

Moved On, 
Have you read the book Healing Without Hurting? 
We're following a lot of her suggestions for my daughter's ADHD, but her story started because of her son's autism. I know she had a lot of success with her son and with others. 

Also, have you looked into the Nemecheck Protocol? I ran across this with one of the parents in this group, but have seen it a lot in my FB groups as well. 

 

Thank you. Yes, I own her book and several others. I am very cautious by nature and only follow what I am comfortable with. I use the books for information and as added resources. I have had to buy them because I couldn't find them in my library system.

There are tons of supplements out there these days, and the reality is that some are no safer than just going ahead and trying ADHD meds, which is what was recommended to us. I have chosen against going down that road, and since we are dealing with hyperactivity only, and some lack of impulse control, I have just decided to go on with what we are doing and wait it out. 

The Nemecheck protocol cuts out probiotics and uses high doses of Omega 3 and inulin. I know enough about it to know that I'm not interested in following it.

I really do appreciate you taking the time to give me suggestions, though!

[Guest]

I just wanted to add, since I mentioned impulse control, that his is not of the aggressive kind. His level of curiosity and bringing things to life is our issue. In many ways it is awe inspiring and in others it's an exercise in frustration for me (and his dad). 

I found him some vegetable based capsules, for the new probiotic, that I don't mind him swallowing whole, so he is now officially swallowing those ?.

[Pen]

On 8/21/2018 at 2:07 PM, Moved On said:

and wait it out. 

 

What do you mean by “wait it out”?

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Pen said:

 

What do you mean by “wait it out”?

Wait for maturity to kick in.

He is an affectionate boy that still loves his hugs. He is not aggressive so I don't have that to worry about. He is considerate and only has one issue, some impulse control. Teaching and guiding him through cognitive approaches and CBT, and as maturity kicks in, I am hoping will be enough to make a difference. That, and a lot of Biblical guidance.

ETA: For anyone that has not followed the entire thread, this is in reference to my 9-year-old son.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

Another thing I realized is that I have forgotten the effects of reactive hypoglycemia. This certainly explains the reaction to the fruit snack with only a very small dab of peanut butter. Also, too many cherries have been known to give me stomach upset and I had had some the night before as well. So, another thing that changed is that now I try to ensure there is lots of protein in their snacks and I also try to ensure that we do not skip snacks. He intuitively seems to know what his body needs too though, and often asks for protein snacks himself. I have always been the same way.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

For anyone interested...

- Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnoses of Gifted Kids

https://gallatingifted.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/misdiagnosis-dual-diagnoses-of-gifted-kids/

And a quote which also mentions reactive hypoglycemia.

Quote

Dr. Webb outlined 5 of the most common misdiagnoses (e.g., children are identified with a syndrome that they don’t have, but instead they are gifted):  ADHD/ADD, anger disorders, mood disorders, learning disorders, and ideational/anxiety disorders.  But he caveats that some gifted children do need dual diagnoses, most commonly of giftedness plus learning disorders, ADHD/ADD, OCD (20% of gifted kids), Aspergers, allergies & asthma, reactive hypoglycemia (6-8%), or sleep disorders.

A few pointers:

• Gifted children often develop “asynchronously”, meaning that some abilities develop faster than others.  This causes two issues.  First, we tend to measure ourselves by our lowest skill, hence gifted kids underestimate their abilities.  Secondly, their judgement lags their intellect.
• Gifted kids’ brains consume more glucose, particularly when their brains are being engaged.  About 6-8% end up with reactive hypoglycemia, but it commonly gets misdiagnosed as bipolar or ADHD, when the kids simply need protein snacks (not sugar) throughout the day.  So if your child’s moods swing several times a day, try beef jerky, peanut butter and cheese sticks before running to the doctor.   (But watch out for allergies.)
• Most gifted kids will gravitate toward individual sports.
• Some gifted kids (or adults) develop existential depression, questioning the meaning of life.  When a child gets into this kind of funk, it is important to communicate that he is not alone.  Help him connect with idealists and causes, or let him read Tillich, Pascal, Kirkegaard, or Nietzsche.  And use touch to help foster a sense of connection.
• Finding a mate can be tough for a gifted person.  They need opportunities to get to know their intellectual peers, who share their interests, values, and quirky sense of humor.   Dr. Webb hypothesizes that they have a “zone of tolerance” of about +/- 15 IQ points.  When you consider that only 3% of the people in a population are gifted, and half of those are the same sex, finding that potential mate in a heterogeneous population is difficult. [Ed. note: Bear this in mind when selecting a college.  Look for honors programs or selective colleges.]

 

[Guest]

Note: I do not know the authors of the website that I quoted in my previous post. I own the book they were referencing, which was why I copy/ pasted their comments, since I did not have time to quote from the book.

Here's something from a MD's website that is not specific to gifted children. Again, quoting for anyone that may find this information useful.

Quote

What is and isn’t hypoglycemia in children

The Pediatric Insider

© 2013 Roy Benaroch, MD

There’s a common “health entity” thing, often called “hypoglycemia.” Funny thing about that—children who have it are not hypoglycemic. But it is a real thing nonetheless, and there are steps parents can take to help deal with it.

Confused?

First: hypoglycemia means low blood sugar, and it can occur. In pediatrics we see it in tiny newborns and very sick children, or in little toddlers sometimes; it’s also seen in children with diabetes who get too much insulin. The main symptoms of hypoglycemia, real hypoglycemia, with real low blood sugars, are sweatiness, disorientation, unconsciousness, coma, and seizures. Real hypoglycemia is a big deal. Let’s call it HYPOGLYCEMIA, in all caps.

But what’s commonly called hypoglycemia in other situations isn’t really hypoglycemia. Here we mean a child (or adult) who gets cranky or headachy or irritable or just doesn’t feel right, especially several hours after a meal. If you check their blood sugars during an episode, it is normal. Their sugars are not low. Nonetheless, they feel better after a snack, especially a carb-snack with a jolt of tasty sugar. So they seem to be suffering from symptoms of hypoglycemia, even though they don’t have HYPOGLYCEMIA.

What’s going on here?

The symptoms of the lower-case hypoglycemia are real. They may not be caused by actual low blood sugar, but perhaps by a fall in the relative level of sugar from normal to lower-normal. Alternatively, it may be that other fuel sources in the blood (maybe an amino acid named alanine) have fallen, though we don’t usually test for that.

So what should doctors and parents do when they have a child with the symptoms of HYPOGLYCEMIA—seizures and coma? Test sugar, and test everything else!

For the symptoms of hypoglycemia, no testing is needed. It’s going to be normal. Instead, families can learn to manage this problem on their own. The main therapy is to prevent these episodes of symptoms by providing frequent, healthy snacks—especially snacks that combinecarbohydrate with fat or protein.

A quick biochemistry lesson: all carbs (including simple sugars and starches) provide a quick jolt of sugar, rapidly providing metabolic energy. But it may not be sustained—sugars are metabolized quickly. To provide sustained elevations in metabolic fuel, carb-rich snacks should be combined with foods rich in fat or protein, which are broken down slower.

A can of Coke, alone—that’s a terrible snack. As would be a glass of orange juice, or an apple. All of these are 100% carb. But smear that apple with peanut butter, or dunk carrot sticks in ranch dressing—those are snacks that will provide lasting food energy.

This kind of hypoglycemia (lower case) is sometimes referred to as “reactive hypoglycemia”, a term that’s just as misleading and even more abstruse. It tends to run in families, and in my experience affects skinny, active kids. If that sounds like your child, you don’t need a bunch of tests. You just need healthier snacking habits. Easy as pie… a la mode!

Found here:

https://pediatricinsider.wordpress.com/2013/05/13/your-child-isnt-hypoglycemic-but-you-can-still-help/

ETA: I do not know Dr. Roy Benaroch either. Just quoting his article in case some find it useful.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

On 8/27/2018 at 1:15 PM, Moved On said:

So, another thing that changed is that now I try to ensure there is lots of protein in their snacks and I also try to ensure that we do not skip snacks. 

So far, this has been the most successful natural approach for the hyperactivity/ impulsivity and by default, the focus. I have no idea why I didn't realize before that this was what had changed! I'm not a fan of exaggeration so I will just say there has been a noticeable and consistent difference in my son for the past two weeks, proving to me that this is what he needed and what was relevant in our case.

All the best to everyone,

M

Edited September 8, 2018 by Guest

[Kanin]

Snacking is something I struggle with as a teacher. I see kids all the time having nothing but sugary or high-carb food for lunch and snacks, and it's clear that blood sugar swings are contributing to their struggles. Even if they don't have the "uppercase" hypoglycemia, even small swings are significant. Last year I let my class snack whenever they wanted during class, and for the most part, everyone was pretty calm and focused. I was lucky that that their parents sent healthy snacks.

[Guest]

I only have experience with my own two kids. There's no diabetes from either side of our families. So it's not related to that type of hypoglycemia. I followed the What to Eat when You're Expecting book during both pregnancies. During my first pregnancy I was working in a high stress job, but I always made sure I had a plate of fruits and vegetables on my desk. My blood sugar was never elevated throughout either one of my two pregnancies, and my boys'  has never been when tested. This is a bit different though and it does not appear that there's enough known about it. I have had personal experience so I know what it feels like. Some things are just inherited. This is how I knew that my oldest probably had low iron when he did. And this from a kid that loves and eats tons of meat and eggs daily. It was why I slacked off on giving them protein with their snacks. And, healthy snacks, is what we have always given them, even before the diagnoses and the gluten and casein free diet.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

Here's a good article. I won't bother to quote because it has useful information throughout and it's best for someone to read through it to find what applies to their family. I'll just post the link instead, for anyone that may find it useful.

https://www.additudemag.com/adhd-diet-nutrition-sugar/

Edited September 8, 2018 by Guest

[4KookieKids]

On 7/15/2018 at 11:54 AM, Crimson Wife said:

The integrative neurodevelopmental pediatrician we see is a professor at UCSF Medical School and he told me that in his experience, diet can play a big role in helping with ADHD and autism symptoms but it's totally hit-or-miss with each individual. He cannot predict which diet (if any) will help any particular patient of his so he just has a list of things to try. Feingold is one, low phenol another, etc., etc. For my DD, nothing seemed to help beyond simply eliminating gluten, casein, and soy protein (which we'd already figured out prior to seeing him).

 

This is really encouraging to me, because we’ve tried a number of diet (eg gfcd) that others raved about that didn’t really help us, so I really haven’t been looking at other diets. Honestly, it got so overwhelming with all the different and conflicting ideas! But this gives me hope that even if we haven’t found one that really fits us yet, it’s still worthwhile to try things that others have had success with. I’m curious if you can recall what other diets were on the list besides gfcf, Feingold, and low phenol? We’ve also tried AIP and a top-8 allergen elimination thing.

[Guest]

Not Crimson Wife but here's a good book that helped me back then and has been my go-to resource throughout:

Healing the New Childhood Epidemics: Autism, ADHD, Asthma, and Allergies by Dr. Kenneth Bock

I found it in my library system back then but I eventually decided to buy it. In it, for example, he mentions that casein takes a few weeks to clear the system where as gluten can take up to six months and you have to watch for cross-contamination.

The gfcf we have stuck with for over 6 years now. We also avoid soy but occasionally, if I buy something prepackaged, it might say "may have been touched by soy". 

In all fairness, we did/ could not follow the Feingold properly, living in Canada (the salicylates part of it). I could not find their approved nut milk brands for example, so our cashew milk from Silk had some almonds in it. We also could not go for longer than we did because my youngest was getting frustrated and trying to sneak fruits that he loves when I wasn't watching. My husband is not following the  gluten or casein free diet, but my 9-year-old knows and avoids my husband's bread, milk, etc. We just tell him, "that's Dad's" and that is it. We eat fruits for dessert or snacks however, because I only give them a limited number of baked goods, and he also loves fruits, so it was hard on him losing so many fruits. We also didn't follow it for the length of time we were supposed to, at least the salicylates part, which means I have only limited experience as to how that part may have helped. It just wasn't easy to continue with that part of the diet. The sugar, additives, food-coloring, etc? Yes, that part we have seen a difference with and that is one I definitely would not drop.

Anyway, just some info for you from our experience. I have other resources also, but Dr. Bock's book has been my favorite go-to resource and the easiest to find at the library. 

Edited September 9, 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

4KookieKids, you'll find the diets mentioned in Dr. Bock's book. However, if you can find Dr. Kenneth Aitken's book, Dietary Interventions in Autism Spectrum Disorders at your library, it devotes a chapter to each diet. It's a book I bought (my library system does not carry it, although I seem to remember they may have had one copy at some point) after I saw Crimson Wife mention it (if I remember correctly). We have not tried all the diets found in the book, at this point in time.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, Moved On said:

However, if you can find Dr. Kenneth Aitken's book, Dietary Interventions in Autism Spectrum Disorders at your library, it devotes a chapter to each diet. It's a book I bought (my library system does not carry it, although I seem to remember they may have had one copy at some point) after I saw Crimson Wife mention it (if I remember correctly). 

OK, I was right. It's actually in the first page of this thread, and my library system did carry a copy. Good thing I didn't wait for it because they no longer seem to have it! The book is a really good resource but might be harder to find, which was why I mentioned Dr. Bock's book instead. And there's a greater variety of information in Dr. Bock's book, including his vaccination protocol. I have several books on natural interventions but these two are the most useful.

And I'm off again ☺️!

Edited September 10, 2018 by Guest

[4KookieKids]

On 9/10/2018 at 12:07 PM, Guest said:

4KookieKids, you'll find the diets mentioned in Dr. Bock's book. However, if you can find Dr. Kenneth Aitken's book, Dietary Interventions in Autism Spectrum Disorders at your library, it devotes a chapter to each diet. It's a book I bought (my library system does not carry it, although I seem to remember they may have had one copy at some point) after I saw Crimson Wife mention it (if I remember correctly). We have not tried all the diets found in the book, at this point in time.

 

I just wanted to update that it seems that Google books has Aitken's entire book available online, in case anyone else is interested in reading it:

https://books.google.com/books?id=2hoQBQAAQBAJ&lpg=PA10&ots=CmPz4WzZ0P&dq=what is the "simple restriction diet" OR SRD autism&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false