Jump to content

Menu

S/O Obesity/ Weight Loss


Scarlett
 Share

Recommended Posts

6 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

SeaConquest  that video is interesting....I watched about half....I am at work and my sound is terrible here, so I will watch the rest later.  I am curious why they can't figure out a way to fix the metabolic issues without surgery.  

 

They may eventually figure that out, but they've only recently proven that the metabolic issues are the cause of the problem rather than a moral /self control issue. It might take decades to solve that one.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it’s more accurate to say that regardless of the cause of obesity - metabolic, trauma/psychological, lack of self-control, whatever - at some point the person *can’t*, even with the greatest will,  lose weight because of the metabolic changes in the body. The body (perhaps even the brain?) actively works against the person trying to lose weight at that point. 

  • Like 10
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

Metabolic syndrome can be fixed without surgery...but some people have a hard time changing the diet and exercise routine to accomplish it, others are on medication that makes it impossible, and others have an underlying genetic issue.

No, obesity is not always beyond the control of the person.  My obesity was fixed when my medication was changed.  My overweight was fixed when my underlying genetic issue was treated and I adhered to the exercise/nutrition guidelines.  Right now there is a lot of work going on in the labs re: obese children.  Here for example is a study on childhood Vitamin D (really a hormone not a vitamin) vs obesity:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17656603 .

I did not beleive my weight was controllable until the poster Joanne pointed out (in a very long thread)  that if you are eating correctly, exercising, and nothing is happening, then there is a medical or genetic cause.  One of my causes was medication pegging my blood sugar at 99...just below the level where treatment would occur, but high enough that I was packing the pounds on since the blood sugar level was signalling the body to do so. I couldn't eat more than 1000 calories a day of nutritious food, even with running or biking daily without seeing the weight rise.  Off that medication, my blood sugar was normal and eating the same diet and keeping the same exercise routine meant losing weight. Another cause was a genetic issue in the vitamin D receptor causing very low vitamin D.  Not to say that's what is happening with other people, its just one of many many possibilities that have to be worked thru logically.  I went thru six doctors before finding one that could logically work thru it all. 

 

The bolded is where I get dizzy because I do not see my ss sticking with a plan but when I say that someone invariably says 'well, he can't it is beyond his control.'

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, brehon said:

I think it’s more accurate to say that regardless of the cause of obesity - metabolic, trauma/psychological, lack of self-control, whatever - at some point the person *can’t*, even with the greatest will,  lose weight because of the metabolic changes in the body. The body (perhaps even the brain?) actively works against the person trying to lose weight at that point. 

When you say 'can't, do you mean that even eating very little still doesn't bring weight loss?  Or do you mean they are unable to control their appetite?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I can tell you that I found a lifestyle plan that apparently addressed all my mechanical issues. I lost 100 pounds and reversed type 2 diabetes and my lupus, also, became quite mild and manageable. I recommend Joel Fuhrman's Eat to Live and The End of Diabetes, for anyone who can't do the low carb 

Then something happened to me, and triggered a lot of childhood and young adult trauma memories, and I learned all the other reasons why I was sick and overweight. I didn't even realize I was registering all of that, for over six months, when I finally noticed I'd restarted old habits and neglected my health. I can't explain to you HOW it's possible that I didn't know I was punishing myself, but I can tell you (again) that if you'll study the plight of adults with high ACE* scores, it's as common as dirt to be triggered and then regress like that.

Lucky for me, I did figure this all out, and I'm back on plan. But it will take until Christmas to get back to the same level of health. I'm an educated adult with a good, safe life, and I can come at this from a position of strength. I can also afford good nutrition and vitamins. Aaaand I've cut off family members who know how to push my buttons at such a destructive level...not everyone can do all this, not everyone has all this...

There are mechanical factors that must be addressed, in every obese person. But it's almost always going to be far more work and stringency than "eat less, move more." The body is going to have to be shocked and psyched out, by various tricks, or it will "make" the person eat more and gain again, Surgery is one trick. There are doctors (like Fuhrman and Esselstyn and Yung) who are pioneering nutrition and lifestyle methods but they are NOT easy. It is not easy to treat yourself like a science project while you have no choice but to live like a human, and it's very hard if you've coped with trauma through behaviors that are exact opposite of what you must do. Some of us would rather do that work than die of disease, but that's very personal. Not everyone is up for it, not everyone understands it, not everyone has time, money, and support.

*Adverse Childhood Experiences. Your stepson likely scores rather high on this. He may not even know it, because it's been his normal, and he may even think he's okay. I thought I was okay as a young adult, but anyone could have seen that I wasn't. I figured it out, very, very painfully, in my thirties, and I'm still trying to overcome it in my forties. 

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

The bolded is where I get dizzy because I do not see my ss sticking with a plan but when I say that someone invariably says 'well, he can't it is beyond his control.'

Perhaps another addition is "if they cannot stick to a proper eating plan, despite showing normal self control in other areas of their lives". I mean, it has been proven time and again that people who are obese are not lacking in will power in other areas of their lives. They are often amazingly strong willed, ambitious people. So if they are not weak willed in general, it is unlikely that the reason they are not sticking to a diet is will power. There is another, probably biological, cause. 

  • Like 5
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

54 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

So is the consensus that obesity is always beyond the control of the person?

It's more accurate, maybe, to say that obesity is a real disease and once someone has t they can't just not have it. It is a chronic illness. That said, like say, Rheumatoid Arthritis, also a disease, there are things a person can do for treatment. What treatment works may vary by the person, as with something like Rhematoid Arthritis. And many are not very helpful at all, again, like with other diseases. Sometimes lifestyle and diet will help, often that isn't possible without either medication or, most likely, surgery. Again, like other diseases. For instance, exercise may help with Rheumatoid Arthritis, but if the person is in too much pain from the disease to exercise then you would have to treat the disease with medication or what not before the exercise would be realistically possible. 

Does that analogy help?

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

When you say 'can't, do you mean that even eating very little still doesn't bring weight loss?  Or do you mean they are unable to control their appetite?

Often, both. They may for a while manage to eat very little, but the weight loss is not commensurate with the cut in calories, and then they get hit with an increased appetite AND slower metabolism, leading to more eating and greater appetite. 

But the varies a bit based on the person. And how desperate they are. I mean yes, some people go around starving all the time and ignore their appetite, but long term that isn't feasible for most people. Others are actually able to eat a normal amount, without feeling starving, but still don't lose weight. 

In my experience, t's a mix of both, with people starving themselves, then getting super frustrated when the weight loss stops due to slowed metabolism, and that frustration plus the body fighting back with an increased appetite leads to "falling off the wagon". Or what looks like giving up to most outsiders. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

When you say 'can't, do you mean that even eating very little still doesn't bring weight loss?  Or do you mean they are unable to control their appetite?

 

 

Answering for myself, the former. 

Specific example: most of my life  I found it fairly easy to maintain a good slim but not skinny figure until getting sick with Lyme/autoimmunity.

Initially after illness I was much too skinny. Then I started putting on weight which got worse with peri menopause.

On a modified keto (MMT) program where I have been tracking all food, I was losing an average of two pounds per week. Then I came to a plateau where (and not the first time this has happened) my metabolism apparently adjusted to reduced food intake so that at an average and fairly consistent intake of 886kCal per day, and with my app saying I could eat 21kCal per day more avg and keep losing weight, my weight instead leveled off and my waist line stopped shrinking. 

No doubt that would be different if I had no food at all available such as in a famine. But trying to keep as well as I can despite chronic illness to raise child etc, I don’t want to purposely simulate that  

I already do IF In the sense of a daily long period of hours with no food. 

I will be trying a metabolism reset via a fast /feast routine in a few days (I need some items on hand first so as not to cause my autoimmunity to flare) . If you are interested I can let you know if that works. 

But anyway, at an average # of calories daily that according to my app should allow weight loss to continue and which even with great care as to it being as healthy as I can make it with nutritional balance (not junk foods in low amount) my body adjusted and was holding at within 3/10 of a kilo for nearly two weeks. 

As to appetite that part really has not been  a problem — after my initial keto adjustment when it was. By the time I eat enough to get my daily amount of basic nutrition from food, I usually am feeling stuffed. Like I cannot possibly eat enough to get my full percent of ____ for the day. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Perhaps another addition is "if they cannot stick to a proper eating plan, despite showing normal self control in other areas of their lives". I mean, it has been proven time and again that people who are obese are not lacking in will power in other areas of their lives. They are often amazingly strong willed, ambitious people. So if they are not weak willed in general, it is unlikely that the reason they are not sticking to a diet is will power. There is another, probably biological, cause. 

 

Good point. I am an extremely disciplined, competent, and effective person in so many other areas...yet I always believed I was just scattered or lazy because I was overweight. Actually, I had kidney damage from lupus, and I'm one of those people whose insulin receptors are clogged by saturated fat. So I didn't know how to eat for weight loss, since I couldn't have much protein and fat due to kidney damage, and since nothing worked I stopped caring. Until I was dx'ed with Type 2. I would never have found a way, until Dr. Fuhrman's books were recommended to me. I followed his plan with zero cheats over more than a year...no discipline problem, once I was being properly nourished for the first time in my life...

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

When you say 'can't, do you mean that even eating very little still doesn't bring weight loss?  Or do you mean they are unable to control their appetite?

 

He will always be able to lose weight by starving himself if he can will himself to do it and/or is placed in a situation where there is nothing edible at all.  That is physics. He will not be able to keep it off because his set point and hormones will raise his appetite so that there will be an undeniable drive to eat, and probably regain whatever he lost and more. 

Additionally, to whatever degree he is using food as a stress-regulator in order to avoid processing the emotions that are definitely involved in say, not having a bed at his mother's house because she'd rather use his room as her closet, he will also have an emotional drive to eat to avoid processing those feelings. Given the chaos that you've described in his life, I strongly suspect both physical and emotional issues are a factor. At a subconscious level I don't think he feels safe enough to get really angry at his parents. So he avoids feeling anything with food. When you look into the ACE's referenced above, you might become grateful that he's chosen food as his escape mechanism.  It is probably the least-worst self destructive mechanism people who have a great deal of them choose. Many people with similar backgrounds choose terrible coping mechanisms that can kill them quite quickly.

  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

When you say 'can't, do you mean that even eating very little still doesn't bring weight loss?  Or do you mean they are unable to control their appetite?

I think probably both. It may be individual depending on a person’s physiology. I mean, in a famine situation, he’d lose weight and keep it off. Not that I’d recommend that, of course. 

There is so much science has learned in just the past few years about the gut microbiome and how it seems to affect so much more than just the gut. And there is still so much more to learn. I think the latest research shows that the microbiome can have a big effect on the ability to lose weight.

Honestly, Scarlett, I think your dss is at a point now that simple will power isn’t going to help him. I imagine he has huge, complex physiological reasons for his obesity which is why losing weight isn’t simply a matter of eating less/moving more. His body needs a “reset” somehow. Surgery is one way, but I’m not sure if that’s appropriate for your dss even if a doctor would sign off on it or if there are other ways that would benefit your dss.

You mentioned that his doctor gave him lists of food to eat/avoid. Were these just lists? Or was there a meal plan included? I participated in a study of EMS/FD/LE health. One of the benefits of this study was a session with a nutritionist who went over individual plans with all the participants. For me, having a plan that says “This is what you’ll eat for b-fast, lunch, snack, supper today” was so helpful. Each participant received a customized 2 week meal plan. I don’t have to follow the plan exactly, of course, but now I know what substitutions will work in meals. Does your dss have something similar based on his bloodwork, other tests (if performed), and his individual body/physiology? Maybe that would help him?

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, brehon said:

 

There is so much science has learned in just the past few years about the gut microbiome and how it seems to affect so much more than just the gut. And there is still so much more to learn. I think the latest research shows that the microbiome can have a big effect on the ability to lose weight.

 

yes! They have done fecal transplants from obese people to thin people and the thin people gained weight without other changes. And similar issues in mice. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A few random thoughts.  When he did WW the weight dropped off rapidly.  I asked him if he felt hungry and he said no.  He didn't stick with it though and when I later tried to figure out what he didn't like about it he said it was too repetitive.  And I really don't know what he means by that.  

Also when he has followed the doctors general guidelines the weight has dropped off. So I do believe that he could lose the weight, but something is stopping him from following through. 

I don't know if he is gaining or losing at this point.  And I don't know if dh will push for something more....

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Scarlett said:

A few random thoughts.  When he did WW the weight dropped off rapidly.  I asked him if he felt hungry and he said no.  He didn't stick with it though and when I later tried to figure out what he didn't like about it he said it was too repetitive.  And I really don't know what he means by that.  

Also when he has followed the doctors general guidelines the weight has dropped off. So I do believe that he could lose the weight, but something is stopping him from following through. 

I don't know if he is gaining or losing at this point.  And I don't know if dh will push for something more....

Diets almost always work for a few weeks. It takes a while for the body to start fighting back. 

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

48 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

A hungry person cannot stick to a plan unless the food available sticks to the plan, and the food meets the nutritional needs.  Quoting my dc's ped: "dont bring it in the house".  He means don't bring anything nonnutritious in the house...the soda, the simple processed carbs, all processed 'food' etc.  Stock lean proteins, veggies, whole grains, fruits, limited dairy. Do the math and plan the menus so that he is eating enough calories and getting the nutritional needs for his age met, including the fiber needs...that will get him off the blood sugar roller coaster, and, if he has no underlying medical issue, actually not hungry. Make the tools available:  a scale , measuring cups and spoons, a water bottle, a good night's sleep....

Medical...he needs to have his bloodwork done.  Is the vitamin D, B12, Trigylcerides, blood sugar, etc in a healthy zone? That will give the doctor clues. http://www.nutritiontotheedge.com/how-blood-sugar-affects-your-health-and-energy/ is the link for you all to read that explains why hunger occurs so much with the wrong diet.

If the lad graduated high school without the skills to develop a nutritional menu and/or use portion control, get a referral and have him work with a nutritionist who has the right background to work with young men.  If he graduated high school without the skills to develop a lifetime exercise plan, look at the CC...they have classes available that will teach skills. 

Lastly, young men I know who have lost significant weight don't do it with a goal of losing weight.  They have another goal...they want to do something that the weight and fitness level prevents them from doing. They come up with a plan to get there, and they work that plan.  Invariably that plan involves sticking to healthy menus and moderate exercise/weight work.  The goal may be running a 5K, it may be hiking a mountain, meet the military or police dept fitness requirements....it is never "I'm fat and don't want to be fat". small sample size yes....but the key is its their motivation and they work up the plan, maybe with help from someone more educated.  

 

There is good food in the house.  And I cook good meals. We don't keep soda in the house and we don't have junk food in the house.  

He has had a ton of blood work and everything is normal.  And he and the doctor talked at length about nutrition and I felt the doctor was very knowledgable and balanced.  

Dss is going to be a senior....  I think he is very educated about portion control (WW is excellent for educating in this area) and nutrition.  But he is 17, has his own car, has a job and money and goes to see his mom sometimes, so there is only so much I can control as regards his eating.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

A few random thoughts.  When he did WW the weight dropped off rapidly.  I asked him if he felt hungry and he said no.  He didn't stick with it though and when I later tried to figure out what he didn't like about it he said it was too repetitive.  And I really don't know what he means by that.  

Also when he has followed the doctors general guidelines the weight has dropped off. So I do believe that he could lose the weight, but something is stopping him from following through. 

I don't know if he is gaining or losing at this point.  And I don't know if dh will push for something more....

When I focus on my weight (about 60 pounds over now, was 100 pounds overweight 13 months ago), I can ONLY focus on my weight. I cannot do it when I am stressed about kid stuff or marriage stuff or school stuff or work stuff; I can't focus on what to eat/when to exercise/tracking everything/cooking ahead/getting enough sleep while ANYTHING else is going on in my life. It's all or nothing. Yes, I'm fairly lucky in that the weight does come off when I dedicate my days to counting calories/carbs/fat grams (although it took 3 months to lose anything this past year), but it makes for a very, very depressing life when I have to have every ounce of brain power going toward it. I have never gotten to the point where it becomes a habit or "just a normal way of eating"; it's always a Herculean effort (even after doing it for 13 months solid now).  In fact, I have been sitting here for a half an hour telling myself, "Get up and make breakfast for tomorrow, so it's ready to go." So far, I haven't had the oomph to do so.

Also, a lot of times, weight comes off quickly at first (especially for a 17 year old male), but weight loss will slow down (human bodies do not like change) and it's hard to keep up the momentum when you don't get results especially if you are dedicating so much effort to it. 

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Speaking of microbiome I would very much like to know what mine and other family members show. When I looked it seemed like the American Gut Biome project was closed. Do any of you know if that is so? And do any of you know how to get an analysis of ones microbiome?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

But what do you mean?  Do you mean your body causes you to no longer be able to stick to the diet?

 

Sometimes it may be that way. And strange to think about, but our brains may be partly controlled by the microscopic creatures living inside us. 

But also even if sticking to the diet, our bodies want to maintain their standard amount of fat. 

Metabolism shifts in response to conditions 

+

Homeostasis

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

You cannot control his eating. Period.  all you can control is what you stock and some of his access to fitness options.   With all due respect, once you educate yourself, you will realize you do have junk in the house.  For ex, you have another thread going with pasta and sausage and greens as a  proposed evening meal.  The first two are processed, nonnutrient dense foods.  Depending on what the greens are, iceberg for example, they may be of low nutrient density.  Do the math.  Does this meal provide sufficient nutrients and fiber for all involved, without overloading on fat and glycemic index?  That's what people are talking about when say 'good' meals and planning ahead.

And with all due respect to the doctor, 'normal' is set for survive, not thrive in the U.S.  More informed doctors used the Euro or Japanese ranges as D levels and B12 need to be higher, and sugar lower for thrive rather than survive.   See the previously posted link on the blood sugar roller coaster....that happens to people who have 'normal' levels and moves them right on to pre-diabetes and diabetes, because high end of normal is the path..and people who have high normal think they are A-okay and need no changes even though they are obese.

You've gotten, again, great recommendations.  I'll add to the lit with Phil Maffetone's The Big Book on Health and Fitness...

Dss was not home for that meal of spaghetti.  He is not home a lot now.  The salads we make are with spinach and a lot of raw veggies.  We often have lean grilled meat, 2 roasted green veggies and a good green salad.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, HeighHo said:

 

My point is that you have junk food in the home.  Don't serve, and get it out of the home if you want to help him learn new habits and believe that is really how adults eat.  Personal integrity of the guiding adults is a big big deal to a young person.

As I said he wasn't home.  I knew he would not be home when I bought it and planned it for company.  There isn't junk food in the home.  But he eats most evening meals at work now anyway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, beckyjo said:

When I focus on my weight (about 60 pounds over now, was 100 pounds overweight 13 months ago), I can ONLY focus on my weight. I cannot do it when I am stressed about kid stuff or marriage stuff or school stuff or work stuff; I can't focus on what to eat/when to exercise/tracking everything/cooking ahead/getting enough sleep while ANYTHING else is going on in my life. It's all or nothing. Yes, I'm fairly lucky in that the weight does come off when I dedicate my days to counting calories/carbs/fat grams (although it took 3 months to lose anything this past year), but it makes for a very, very depressing life when I have to have every ounce of brain power going toward it. I have never gotten to the point where it becomes a habit or "just a normal way of eating"; it's always a Herculean effort (even after doing it for 13 months solid now).  In fact, I have been sitting here for a half an hour telling myself, "Get up and make breakfast for tomorrow, so it's ready to go." So far, I haven't had the oomph to do so.

Also, a lot of times, weight comes off quickly at first (especially for a 17 year old male), but weight loss will slow down (human bodies do not like change) and it's hard to keep up the momentum when you don't get results especially if you are dedicating so much effort to it. 

So so so true. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I disagree with an entire family home going on a diet. Different people have different needs, and it would only "work" for the overweight person if they were literally locked in the house. Meats, vegetables, and salads being the basis of family dinners, and absence of HFCS soda, candy, and chips - to me, JMHO, that's a healthy food environment, even if some of the people also eat more fruit, dairy products, vegetable complex carbs, some pasta or brown rice, some orange juice.

  • Like 8
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Right. I mean, if there was a particular food that he has known to binge on then don’t keep that in the house. It would just be mean. So for instants, there are certain flavors of potato chips that I know I will be in John. So I don’t buy those. Same with chocolate chip cookies. So I don’t buy those, I buy Oreos because I don’t really like Oreos that much. If I’m really in a bad place I will still eat a few, but I won’t binge on them like I would chocolate chip cookies. They don’t call to me all day. And that’s how it is, when you are obese. Food calls to you. Every minute of every single day part of your brain is thinking about food. It is miserable. So yeah, if you know that He really likes ice cream and that is a problem for him then maybe don’t keep ice cream for a little bit. So down with your son and say hey, your stepbrother is having a really hard time so in solidarity we’re not gonna keep ice cream in the house for a little bit. I’m happy to give you some money if you want to pick some up and eat it out of the house. But I don’t think every single item in the house has to be completely non-carb nonfat non-sugar etc. Not in my stepson actually asks for that kind of help.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Tibbie Dunbar said:

I disagree with an entire family home going on a diet. Different people have different needs, and it would only "work" for the overweight person if they were literally locked in the house. Meats, vegetables, and salads being the basis of family dinners, and absence of HFCS soda, candy, and chips - to me, JMHO, that's a healthy food environment, even if some of the people also eat more fruit, dairy products, vegetable complex carbs, some pasta or brown rice, some orange juice.

Thank you.  I was trying to wrap my head around never again having spaghetti in my house to prove personal integrity.  

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The many-decades advice to eat low fat led to the consumption of much larger amounts of sugar and other unhealthy carbs. This is partly why the microbiome in many people changed dramatically. In order for beneficial bacteria to multiply and thrive, they must receive (eat) microbiota-accessible carbs (MACs), which are different types of fiber from food sources, especially plant fiber. Other foods are beneficial, too, like ghee and Alaskan salmon. Fasting and exercise both increase beneficial bacteria in the gut as well. Antibiotics and certain other meds, lack of exposure to microbes in soil and not eating fermented foods affects the microbiome as well.

Getting fecal transplants may be one way to reseed the gut to help treat obesity but it could have risks as well. Regardless, the new bacteria would still need MACs to flourish.

Btw, fasting is biochemically different than starving. Intermittent fasting (a loose term) has a different effect than fasting as well. Fasting and a fasting-mimicking diet (FMD) have similar effects but the FMD includes very specific nutrients and is not simply fewer calories.

A little off tangent but it does pertain to fat reduction, by around day 2 of a fast or FMD, the body begins to break down visceral fat (inflammatory) around the abdomin and that will continue even after stopping the fast/FMD. The health benefits are seen three months out but are reduced to about 60%. Very desirable anyway. One of the best researchers in this area is Valter Longo. His human studies on MS and fasting/FMD/refeeding are showing that fasting kills off damaged cellular material, regrows stem cells and effectively creates a healthier immune system. In some cases the MS went away completely. Most improved significantly. A five day fast can regenerate as much as 40% of the immune system. These methods are being used on all kinds of autoimmune disorders as well as being used as an adjunct to cancer treatments. Google Longo’s interviews with Rhonda Patrick if you want to learn more. 

 

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, Pen said:

Speaking of microbiome I would very much like to know what mine and other family members show. When I looked it seemed like the American Gut Biome project was closed. Do any of you know if that is so? And do any of you know how to get an analysis of ones microbiome?

 

Knight’s lab at UCSD?

UBiome might be an option.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

 Right. I mean, if there was a particular food that he has known to binge on then don’t keep that in the house. It would just be mean. So for instants, there are certain flavors of potato chips that I know I will be in John. So I don’t buy those. Same with chocolate chip cookies. So I don’t buy those, I buy Oreos because I don’t really like Oreos that much. If I’m really in a bad place I will still eat a few, but I won’t binge on them like I would chocolate chip cookies. They don’t call to me all day. And that’s how it is, when you are obese. Food calls to you. Every minute of every single day part of your brain is thinking about food. It is miserable. So yeah, if you know that He really likes ice cream and that is a problem for him then maybe don’t keep ice cream for a little bit. So down with your son and say hey, your stepbrother is having a really hard time so in solidarity we’re not gonna keep ice cream in the house for a little bit. I’m happy to give you some money if you want to pick some up and eat it out of the house. But I don’t think every single item in the house has to be completely non-carb nonfat non-sugar etc. Not in my stepson actually asks for that kind of help.

I have tried to figure out what is the most difficult for him to resist.  Chips, bread, cookies...I think those are the worst.  But honestly what happens when there is no 'junk' food is he just eats a lot of what is there.  Like a gallon of milk.  Or steak out of the freezer.  

He gets home late form work and then sleeps in.  Doesn't eat breakfast.  Eats lunch around 1:00 and then goes to work.  Has dinner break from 5:00-5:30 and eats from his works kitchen.  I imagine he is starving when he gets home....I haven't talked to him about this but it would be better if he got up at a decent hour and had a good hearty high protein breakfast and then ate nothing after work even if he feels hungry. 

I talk here.  LOL....I don't talk to him.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I have tried to figure out what is the most difficult for him to resist.  Chips, bread, cookies...I think those are the worst.  But honestly what happens when there is no 'junk' food is he just eats a lot of what is there.  Like a gallon of milk.  Or steak out of the freezer.  

He gets home late form work and then sleeps in.  Doesn't eat breakfast.  Eats lunch around 1:00 and then goes to work.  Has dinner break from 5:00-5:30 and eats from his works kitchen.  I imagine he is starving when he gets home....I haven't talked to him about this but it would be better if he got up at a decent hour and had a good hearty high protein breakfast and then ate nothing after work even if he feels hungry. 

I talk here.  LOL....I don't talk to him.  

1. good for you for trying to figure it out and quietly not stock those things. Getting rid of those things will help his health, even if it doesn't help his weight, if that makes sense. 

2. MUCH better to binge on protein and whole foods than on junk...the human body has a much better idea of how to digest/use those things, and they don't trigger rebound blood sugar issues or rebound eating. The chips and cookies actually make him hungrier. Remember, there are VERY well paid scientists whose entire job is to engineer those chips and cookies to be as hard to resist as possible, to actually trigger your hunger. 

3. Honestly, don't fuss abut the timing of the food. Having at least 12 hours between last snack and first eating is important, WHEN that happens is less important. I tried this myself, because "everyone" says you should eat breakfast and then not eat after dinner. But you know what? That NEVER worked. I always "gave in" and ate after dinner. I LIKE eating after the kids go to bed, when  can savor my food and not be jumping up to get someone something, etc. It's a pleasure for me. So, I'd force myself to eat breakfast, then still end up eating after dinner, and just end up eating more overall. And I tried for YEARS. Now I work WITH my instincts, and have lunch, dinner, and then another meal at night. I am happier and my weight is more stable that way. So if he has a weird schedule that is fine, as long as he's not eating 24/7.

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

Diets almost always work for a few weeks. It takes a while for the body to start fighting back. 

In the discussion in this and the other thread, it has been emphasized by several people that long term weight loss is impossible. I am curious: what distinguishes the people who are successful in keeping the weight off long term from those who gain back? They obviously do exist. I have two friends who lost significant weight (50-100 lbs) in their late 40s/50s through lifestyle changes, not weight loss surgery, and have managed to keep it off for years. One had been too obese to go camping with her family and was told by her doctor that she was on the path to dying, so she decided it was time. What is different in people who, after decades of being obese, manage to make changes of this magnitude, in middle age?

ETA: It also is always mentioned that willpower does not matter. These people, however, do have the willpower to go to the gym at 5:30am every morning/ train for cycling every day. Without that, they would not have been able to lose and keep off.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

A few random thoughts.  When he did WW the weight dropped off rapidly.  I asked him if he felt hungry and he said no.  He didn't stick with it though and when I later tried to figure out what he didn't like about it he said it was too repetitive.  And I really don't know what he means by that.  

Also when he has followed the doctors general guidelines the weight has dropped off. So I do believe that he could lose the weight, but something is stopping him from following through. 

I don't know if he is gaining or losing at this point.  And I don't know if dh will push for something more....

I think what makes people lose a lot of weight and then retain the loss is when they re-create their identity. IMO, that is the only non-surgical thing that could work long-term for first-world folks like us who have access to endless foods all of the time.

So, for example, I have a friend who went vegan a couple years ago. She now sees herself as someone who could never again eat something gained from the harm or death of animals. She also changed other things like sugar consumption. She lost over sixty pounds and is as slim as any adult could wish to be. I expect her weight loss to be retained for the indefinite future because her entire paradigm of what is food she can eat has changed. So then, it’s not really a “willpower” matter. 

Additionally, body chemistry does come into play. I don’t know at what point the body “decides” that sixty pounds lighter is the new, permanent set point, but it does seem to happen eventually. 

I have not experienced this myself, but it seems to me that losing a very large amount of weight is extraordinarily difficult because the end goal is so far away and the body itself works against this “famine” you have imposed. I see this just in trying to lose <10lbs, which is a very small goal and doesn’t require very massive changes. I am using intermittent fasting and also keeping my carbs and simple sugars very low, but I swear, if I eat a single cookie, my body seems to go, “OH YEAH! THANK YOU, WE WILL JUST STORE THIS COOKIE AWAY SO WE CAN GET THROUGH THIS FAMINE WE’VE BEEN DEALING WITH!” It’s crazy, but truly, I will weigh in a pound heavier the next day from the smallest of sugary transgressions. 

I think intermittent fasting works very well, but I do think it would be hard or close to *psychologically* impossible for a very obese person, because it is not psychologically easy to be hungry day after day. I can endure it because my goal is so small and because I distract myself for the morning, which makes it easier, but I can imagine it would be harder to ignore if I was much bigger and my body was “demanding” I EAT SOMETHING NOW! 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I have tried to figure out what is the most difficult for him to resist.  Chips, bread, cookies...I think those are the worst.  But honestly what happens when there is no 'junk' food is he just eats a lot of what is there.  Like a gallon of milk.  Or steak out of the freezer.  

He gets home late form work and then sleeps in.  Doesn't eat breakfast.  Eats lunch around 1:00 and then goes to work.  Has dinner break from 5:00-5:30 and eats from his works kitchen.  I imagine he is starving when he gets home....I haven't talked to him about this but it would be better if he got up at a decent hour and had a good hearty high protein breakfast and then ate nothing after work even if he feels hungry. 

I talk here.  LOL....I don't talk to him.  

His shift at school/work may be hindering his weight loss. Working 2nd shift (which is usually 3-midnight-ish) is a risk factor for obesity. There's really nothing to be done for it here (I don't think), but it may help you view it as not all in his control. FWIW, both my parents worked 2nd or 3rd shift their entire lives; both were obese. 

https://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/features/shift-work#1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

In the discussion in this and the other thread, it has been emphasized by several people that long term weight loss is impossible. I am curious: what distinguishes the people who are successful in keeping the weight off long term from those who gain back? I have two friends who lost significant weight (50-100 lbs) in their late 40s/50s through lifestyle changes, not weight loss surgery, and have managed to keep it off for years. One had been too obese to go camping with her family and was told by her doctor that she was on the path to dying, so she decided it was time. What is different in people who, after decades of being obese, manage to make changes of this magnitude, in middle age?

No one really knows, for sure. We also don't know why some people manage to recover from cancer and others don't, or some manage to recover from depression and others don't. There is a registry for people that have kept weight off, but even they may still be obese. Some commonalities are lots of walking or other exercise, lower calorie foods, weighing themselves frequently. But even that has a lot of variation. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Quill said:

I think what makes people lose a lot of weight and then retain the loss is when they re-create their identity. IMO, that is the only non-surgical thing that could work long-term for first-world folks like us who have access to endless foods all of the time.THING NOW! 

That is a great way to put it. This is definitely true for those of my friends who had significant and sustained long term weight loss. They have recreated their identities. One has become a competetive cyclist in her 50s, the other a gym and healthy food nut.

ETA: This could also explain why they found it easier to do this at mid-life, when they could redefine themselves through roles other than being a parent.

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, regentrude said:

In the discussion in this and the other thread, it has been emphasized by several people that long term weight loss is impossible. I am curious: what distinguishes the people who are successful in keeping the weight off long term from those who gain back? They obviously do exist. I have two friends who lost significant weight (50-100 lbs) in their late 40s/50s through lifestyle changes, not weight loss surgery, and have managed to keep it off for years. One had been too obese to go camping with her family and was told by her doctor that she was on the path to dying, so she decided it was time. What is different in people who, after decades of being obese, manage to make changes of this magnitude, in middle age?

ETA: It also is always mentioned that willpower does not matter. These people, however, do have the willpower to go to the gym at 5:30am every morning/ train for cycling every day. Without that, they would not have been able to lose and keep off.

 

I'm working on a theory that it has something to do with not being re-traumatized in the same ways (whether physically, as in injury or illness, or emotionally), that led to the initial weight problem, for at least long enough to really ingrain those new, healthy habits. Like months and years.

I'm with your friend who stays motivated to avoid dying. Same mindset, same likelihood of long-term success even if I hit some speed bumps now and then.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, regentrude said:

That is a great way to put it. This is definitely true for those of my friends who had significant and sustained long term weight loss. They have recreated their identities. One has become a competetive cyclist in her 50s, the other a gym and healthy food nut.

Which again goes to show how MUCH effort it can take. I mean, if you are balancing a kid with special needs and homeschooling and elderly parents or applying to college plus whatever, hard to find time to be a gym rat or competitive cyclist, you know?

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Which again goes to show how MUCH effort it can take. I mean, if you are balancing a kid with special needs and homeschooling and elderly parents or applying to college plus whatever, hard to find time to be a gym rat or competitive cyclist, you know?

 

Dr. Fuhrman teaches that if a person is properly nourished, not eating too much, not eating junk, etc. it's only a matter of two or three twenty-minute walks per day. That was my experience when I lost all the weight, and the walking was one of the things I failed to pay attention to, when I got into trouble...Americans who believe they are too busy to walk for forty minutes per day, total, are fooling themselves. I really believe that, having been one of those fools...we can't be well if we never move. It does not have to be a gym rat lifestyle or competitive sports.

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I have tried to figure out what is the most difficult for him to resist.  Chips, bread, cookies...I think those are the worst.  But honestly what happens when there is no 'junk' food is he just eats a lot of what is there.  Like a gallon of milk.  Or steak out of the freezer.  

He gets home late form work and then sleeps in.  Doesn't eat breakfast.  Eats lunch around 1:00 and then goes to work.  Has dinner break from 5:00-5:30 and eats from his works kitchen.  I imagine he is starving when he gets home....I haven't talked to him about this but it would be better if he got up at a decent hour and had a good hearty high protein breakfast and then ate nothing after work even if he feels hungry. 

I talk here.  LOL....I don't talk to him.  

Sleep greatly affects hunger hormones. Being on a wanly sleep schedule can lead to obesity. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

He gets home late form work and then sleeps in.  Doesn't eat breakfast.  Eats lunch around 1:00 and then goes to work.  Has dinner break from 5:00-5:30 and eats from his works kitchen.  I imagine he is starving when he gets home....I haven't talked to him about this but it would be better if he got up at a decent hour and had a good hearty high protein breakfast and then ate nothing after work even if he feels hungry. 

But if he gets home late and sleeps late, the 1pm lunch would be equivalent to eating a late breakfast, YKWIM? Like, same if I get up at 6:30 and have breakfast at 9 or 10. I can't see why it should matter if his entire schedule is simply shifted by a few hours. His "dinner" at work is the same as an early riser eating lunch at 1pm. As long as he has a long break between his last eating (after getting home from work) and his first meal at 1pm, I don't see why it should matter what the meals are called.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Scarlett, I just want to say as someone who has been at least internally critical of your treatment of/ attitude towards your stepson, I think you're doing a great job recently trying to understand and help him.

I remember reading once on a thread here that fat people didn't have less self-control than thin people - thin people just weren't as hungry, or could eat to satisfaction without gaining weight.  That was mind-blowing to me.  I had always assumed that the amount of fat you were was roughly correlative with the amount of self-control you didn't have - that thin people were thin largely because they had more self-control about eating.  I thought DH (who is thin, while I am slightly chubby) by default had more self control and was a better person than me because I always want to eat cookies and often do eat too many cookies and he (obviously, as he is thin) does not eat too many cookies.

It was only through reading here that I realized that he doesn't have some mammoth amount of self-control around food - he just doesn't want to eat more calories than his body needs to function, while I do want to eat more calories than I need.  He doesn't resist eating too many cookies, ever.  There is no more need for him to resist that than there is for me to resist cocaine, or marijuana, or playing too many video games.  

Anyway, I see you starting to realize something similar, Scarlett, and I remember how revelatory it was for me.

  • Like 11
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That said, I still feel internally (and I am admitting this knowing many people will say "you terrible person!" etc.) that fat people lack self-control.  I judge it negatively (including myself, to the extent I am fat, which at the moment is pretty far for me).  I am not sure where this feeling comes from - it could be a biological drive to reject unhealthiness, or a social reflection of a biological drive to reject people using more than their share of resources, or a social drive to reject outliers, or something else entirely.

 

I think that by acknowledging and recognizing the feeling I can at least assess whether I'm being rational in particular circumstances.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Obesity is a multi-faceted disease. It isn't such that all obese people did or have X to get Y, or that if they all do W, then Z will happen. To conquer obesity, you need a multi-faceted approach. Of course, you want to start with education about diet and exercise. Of course, you want to get an endocrinological workup to ensure that your hormones are functioning properly. Of course, you want to do a complete family and medical history to see if there are other issues that might be causing the weight gain (including mental health and medication-related weight gain). But, once you have picked all the low-hanging fruit, and you still cannot figure out why one is unable to lose weight, then IMHO, it is time to consider other options, which is why I finally opted for bariatric surgery.

But, the way I try to explain it to people is that obesity is like a metabolic locomotive. If the train is moving slowly, it is relatively easy to reverse. So, if you are, let's say 10-20 lbs overweight, it is relatively easy for most people to reverse it. But, if you are 100 lbs overweight, that same 10-20 lbs may be impossible to reverse because now the locomotive is going full speed. Try reversing a locomotive that is moving at high speed -- it takes an enormous amount of energy.  We used to think that fat was this inert object in the body, but we now know that the fat is metabolically active. Meaning, the fat is secreting hormones. The more fat, the more hormones are working against you. Bariatric surgery did the impossible for me -- it reversed the hormonal imbalance that was making it impossible for me to reverse the obesity locomotive. And then, once the metabolic issues were corrected, the weight began to fall off doing the same things that I used to do to no avail.

Unfortunately, we don't have anything that even remotely comes close to the success of bariatric surgery. It is likely that we will in time. But, I kept telling myself that the science would catch up, and 5 years later, nothing had changed. So, I stopped waiting and just did it. And, let me tell you. It was a breeze. My csection was 1000X worse than my gastric bypass has been. My scars are so small that you can barely see them in a bikini. And yes, thank you very much, I can confidently wear a bikini again. I just bought new workout clothes since my old ones were falling off. Size medium. This has been such a blessing for my health, and I was 217 on the day of surgery. For the people who were bigger than me, the changes have been even more lifechanging.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...