Manhattan_Mom Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 I joined this board 6 years ago with high aspirations to afterschool (and possibly full-on homeschool) my two boys. I'm reintroducing myself and looking for feedback and suggestions on how to regain momentum after much tumult. DS 10 has special needs which have led us down a twisting, turning path, educationally and therapeutically. He is a classic Aspie with a lot of strengths in the verbal domain, particularly reading comprehension and vocabulary. WISC-V vocabulary (99%), information (98%), block design (98%), figure weights (91%) with other subtests esp. in working memory in <2% which is thought to be anxiety-related (he is not medicated). He is a massive reader: non-fiction, sci-fi and popular MG, and YA books. His special interests are anything science-related especially space exploration and extra-planetary colonization. He is also interested in history and economics. HIs main challenge is using calm, civil words to advocate for himself. He often perceives social injustices (against himself, against others) and if not adequately addressed (from his POV), he quickly escalates with harsh words, volume and threatening body language. After being asked to leave three different mainstream school environments (Montessori, charter, public) he was placed into a special needs school for bright kids with social and emotional challenges where he completed his first year (3rd grade). He is loved by the teachers and staff who 'get' him and work with him on his areas of challenge. The school is 3hr bus commute round trip (he reads on the bus) - a big downside. He receives cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT), occupational therapy (OT), math tutoring (mathnasium) and takes a private 1:1 class with a local mathematician doing fun stuff like 3d printing and mucking with circuits. He is currently attending a special needs summer camp. He is in it through the first week of August. DS 8 is a sporty, energetic, socially typical boy with some math giftedness (high honors on the CTY test) and verbal giftedness (ERB-ECAA similarities (99%), vocabulary (99%), information (99%) comprehension (99%) or VECI 99.8%and NVI 94%. He attends a private school for gifted kids (just finished 2nd grade) and is in CTY for six weeks this summer taking a science class followed by a history class. So far, he finds the class less compelling than school, but we're only in week 1. He wants to be a math professor and takes a private 1:1 class with the same local mathematician (math and Scratch coding). He is a happy, sunny, "easy" kid and strong student (his Achille's heel is being social with classmates during instruction time). He is often frustrated with his brother. He is annoyed that his brother commands so much attention and exasperated by the degree to which our family life is organized around DS 10's needs. He has spent hundreds (literally) of hours with me in waiting rooms of CBT, OT, Speech, social skills class, psychologist's offices over the course of.. well.. since as far back as he can remember. We pass the time playing games, chess on a mini-board with magnetic pieces, cards, tick-tac-toe.. He LOVES games; he is currently into playing the classic board game RISK (not one for a waiting room). I wok full time as a program manager in a top-tier cancer laboratory in a cancer institute here in NYC. I have a STEM PhD. My husband is a tenured medical professor who travels extensively for work. I do most of the childcare and all of the thinking and planning re the boys' academics. I think it makes the most sense for the boys to stay in their respective schools as each provides something important in their lives. For DS 10, that includes built-in therapeutic support (OT, speech, social skills training), friends who are just as quirky as he is and a forgiving but "real world" environment that does not know him as I do, and "forces" him to confront - and learn to civilly cope - with the kinds of everyday ordinary challenges he will need to navigate to be successful in life if/when (!) he becomes independent. For DS 8, that includes a totally DS 10-free world where he can be himself, form social bonds with peers, and access an accelerated curriculum. That leaves me with SUMMERS, BREAKS and WEEKENDS. This summer is already planned out and "outsourced" to camps, for better or for worse. The only consistent homeschool-y thing I am currently doing with the boys is a nightly reading (slowly at 2-5 pages a pop) through the "Medieval and Early Modern World" books series published by Oxford University Press. My main goals for the boys are: DS 8 - Get him comfortable with the world of math competitions and allow him to do some coding at home, perhaps under the direction of his private teacher. He has tried Math Kangaroo and Noetic math but did not do well relative to ability- a bit above average if I recall. He was completely unfamiliar with the format of the questions. Are there math circle-y books I could get to work with him? DS 10 - Wow. I don't know where to begin. Study individuals who have eloquently deployed nonviolent means to forward social justice (Gandhi, MLK, Mandela?), work on foundational stuff in physics (Six Easy Pieces)? Or should I do life-skills stuff like cooking? Or let him choose? I forget to mention S10 decided he wants to learn Japanese, tried and rejected Duo Lingo and is now using "Japanese from Zero." He can count up to nine thousand (skip counting 10s, 100s and 1,000s) after a few months of study. I dream of several areas of study with BOTH boys: working our way through Euclid's "Elements" (we did this waaaaay back before DS 10's life became complicated and loaded with therapy sessions and got through the first 30 proofs together), studying Latin, reading classics in literature and philosophy together... Should I plan to "do" homeschooling next summer? I can take a few months of leave from my job. Should I start small and carve out 2-3 hrs with them each weekend and just dive into something now? Apologies for the incredibly long post but I'm eager for fresh thinking or suggestions from this great community. Thanks for reading my saga. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 Hi Manhattan Mom, I remember you from 6 years ago. Welcome back! It sounds to me like your kids are each in a good schooling situation and learning a lot. Do you think that they *need* afterschooling? Or is it a way to connect with them? In my experience, when my kids have school holidays, they like to go to camps and do hands on experiences just to unwind. I'm not sure about *more* academics in their off hours. Are your kids keen on the weekends and breaks for academics? Sometimes kids need the gift of time to develop passions. Ruth in NZ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhattan_Mom Posted July 13, 2018 Author Share Posted July 13, 2018 (edited) HI Ruth, I remember you too! Congratulations on your MIT bound DS! WOW! To answer your (good) question, I have several motivations. I need to respond to a clear need on the one hand, on the other hand, I have an urge to provide some element of their academic life that I feel is missing (e.g. character education, proof-based math). DS 10 absolutely needs an accelerated humanities/social science curriculum. He has a social justice warrior nature and seeks to understand why the world is the way it is (to put it simply). An early fascination with weapons and warfare (common among little boys, for better or for worse) had led to a deeper inquiry about how/why states (countries, empires) rise and fall. He is interested in advances in weaponry, strategic and tactical innovations (e.g. medieval Mongolian attack/retreat/ambush tactic) as well as the vision of heads of state (i.e. the decline of China's exploration efforts following Zheng He's voyages). He is especially concerned with global warming and environmental pollution and somehow figured out that militaries are significant sources of pollution. He wants to innovate "green weapons" (oh the irony). Like many social justice warrior types, he often becomes outraged, incensed and dogmatic (even militant) about how things SHOULD be. Among his rants: religion has done more harm than good in the world because religious leaders often use their power to manipulate the faithful for their own enrichment, to fortify their power or burnish their legacy. I want to help him grasp nuance and complexity as well as develop healthy skepticism (ie certify something is derived from primary source material, distinguish conjecture from grounded fact, evaluate claims, etc.). In the math domain, he needs support to stay on-grade. He has a terrible habit of doing things in his head (often correctly, but when things go wrong he cannot backtrack to error-detect). DS 8 had an early passion for puzzles and math that I feel guilty about not nurturing enough. I feel I need to play catch-up in that domain. On the upside, he has benefitted from exposure to the abundance of books we have in our apartment. He *would* play video games if I allowed that in the house. As I do not, he plays board games and reads graphic novels (e.g. Amulet) what I call "junior novels" ie chapter books with a drawing or cartoon-ish element at least every few pages. DS 8 would LOVE the world of math competitions (something I know that @lewelma knows quite a bit about). He's just put baby toes into it. We did a great math adaptive learning course for a year but the start-up that built it went bust. I'm waiting for Beast Academy Online (BAO) to launch. May have DS 8 work on that then segue to AoPS. I'm trying to wrap my head around what I should do for them given that I will be working with weekends, breaks and summers. The "lazy" part of me, wants a single curricular plan for both boys. As in, ok, here is a series (ie Joy Hakim's "The History of US"), lets work our way through it together, here is your Beast Academy Online login and password, do 20 mins per night, and some third thing (Latin? Music theory?). I think I should do at least some more tailored/individualized curriculum planning. I would like DS 10 to study heroes of nonviolent social justice warriors for example. Want to better support DS 8 in the world of math competitions. Any feedback or suggestions welcome. Edited July 13, 2018 by Manhattan_Mom Typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawyer&Mom Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 I love the cooking idea. I’m autistic, and if I could go back in time I’d gladly drop one of my high school honors classes for a class called “Five Easy Ways to Cook Chicken.” Independent living is complicated enough, it would be great to start off having a few good dishes down pat. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 As the mom of an adult gifted Aspie with low processing speeds, if I could go back and do things over again, I would not focus on academics. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freesia Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 You sound like such a caring, loving, involved mom. You've been going through a super intense time and I just want to encourage you to consider a different path--one that is more relaxed and relationship oriented for this season. How about just reading aloud about those social justice warriors to both boys? Have a puzzle for them (or ds ) to work as you read. Explore the math competitions. Figure out what you all enjoy doing for fun together. What makes you laugh? How can you relax? Learning how to relax is really important for kids who are as intense as you are describing. You work full time and have kids in two different schools (which seem like good placements), your kids are young, you are emerging from a tough time. Focus on enjoying each other and decompressing. To address your other issues: Grasping nuance won't come from a curriculum, it will come from repeatedly challenging him on his black and white thinking and talking him through the issues. He is still young and some of that will come with maturity--although later than a neurotypical child. But it won't come unless he is challenged. With an ASD child I work often with I set a rule of "no attacking." So, if your ds is upset with someone on a social justice issue, he may list why and different solutions but not attack verbally the person he thinks is wrong. So when you read the books, discuss ways that the "hero" handled issues well. But, really, the day in and day out boundaries will shape him more. And as a sibling of a child who got *a lot* of attention for his special needs (probably not aspie but profoundly gifted with behavioral issues) I implore you to take that seriously. Find a way to make your home life less all about your oldest. Take your younger ds's concerns seriously, even if your oldest feels bad or does things bc he doesn't know better. Let your younger ds know and see you address his concerns. And spend time with younger ds playing the games he loves. Don't just focus on his academics and interests, be with him and let him know how important he is (bc I know he is as important to you). It will be good for your oldest to learn to deal with having less of your mental, physical and emotional attention on him. (And I'm only saying this not to make you feel guilty bc I know how easy it is for one child's needs to take over. I'm saying it bc you shared it as a concern and I want to let you know that it is a concern and that you seem to be a problem solver and I'm sure you can figure it out.) Listen to 8. Pm her if you need to. I am seeing the exact same thing develop in the boy I mentioned above as in her son. The "life" things that he struggles with are the most important things, far beyond his academic needs. Sure, the academic strengths help him feel good about himself, but spend your extra time on "life"--getting along with others, making space for younger ds's needs and activities, continue the CBT, learn to relax and have fun and cope with everyday things. Explore medication options if you need to (and consider trying meds before he is an older teen and resistant if he needs them) .It is far, far more important that geometry (but, if geometry is fun for all of you and a good family bonding experience, sure go ahead and do it. Just don't do it bc you think your children need it or you aren't being a good mom). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4KookieKids Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 On 7/13/2018 at 6:01 PM, 8FillTheHeart said: As the mom of an adult gifted Aspie with low processing speeds, if I could go back and do things over again, I would not focus on academics. I think the reason it’s so hard to do this is because academics is one of the few things that come easily and therfore give everyone a measure of feeling successful. In “school”, DS9 (with ASD) can spend an hour doing math and come out the ther side having done most of a BA chapter or read Pippi Longstocking in German. In “life,” that same hour is needed to learn how to cut up an apple and a pepper (because the apple-cutting skills didn’t transfer to the pepper...), and a whole other hour is needed just helping him put away his school supplies from the day, and a whole other hour is needed to work through a conflict or simple scheduling misunderstanding once he’s gotten worked up and needs to calm down and reset. Sometimes the academics just feel so much easier to handle than life. I’m not saying it’s good or right; just that I recognize in myself the desire to have something where you feel successful and accomplished without having to work super hard. We’ve spent a lot of time hammering nails and sawing wood lately. Hand-eye coordination and motor skills are areas that don’t come easily to this child. We’ve gone on a lot of bike rides lately, and can now do up to 13 miles regularly as a family. It gives us opportunity to work on low muscle tone and lack of endurance as well as talk about courtesy in new ways and practice different social skills than usual when we interact with other bikers. We spent an entire week cooking and baking and my kitchen was a disaster and we wasted lots of food when kids did something like accidentally fling a cup of flour across the room because they were scooping too forcibly. Non-academic stuff just feels so much harder (especially when I’m tired... ) lol. But the other stuff also feels like a real accomplishment when it’s done. DS9 was so incredibly proud when he made spaghetti from scratch and served it with a homemade pecan pie and vanilla ice cream, even though it took him half a day to make it all. And I have to remind myself that this is why we do the harder stuff too, and not just academics... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 14 hours ago, 4KookieKids said: I think the reason it’s so hard to do this is because academics is one of the few things that come easily and therfore give everyone a measure of feeling successful. In “school”, DS9 (with ASD) can spend an hour doing math and come out the ther side having done most of a BA chapter or read Pippi Longstocking in German. In “life,” that same hour is needed to learn how to cut up an apple and a pepper (because the apple-cutting skills didn’t transfer to the pepper...), and a whole other hour is needed just helping him put away his school supplies from the day, and a whole other hour is needed to work through a conflict or simple scheduling misunderstanding once he’s gotten worked up and needs to calm down and reset. Sometimes the academics just feel so much easier to handle than life. I’m not saying it’s good or right; just that I recognize in myself the desire to have something where you feel successful and accomplished without having to work super hard. We’ve spent a lot of time hammering nails and sawing wood lately. Hand-eye coordination and motor skills are areas that don’t come easily to this child. We’ve gone on a lot of bike rides lately, and can now do up to 13 miles regularly as a family. It gives us opportunity to work on low muscle tone and lack of endurance as well as talk about courtesy in new ways and practice different social skills than usual when we interact with other bikers. We spent an entire week cooking and baking and my kitchen was a disaster and we wasted lots of food when kids did something like accidentally fling a cup of flour across the room because they were scooping too forcibly. Non-academic stuff just feels so much harder (especially when I’m tired... ) lol. But the other stuff also feels like a real accomplishment when it’s done. DS9 was so incredibly proud when he made spaghetti from scratch and served it with a homemade pecan pie and vanilla ice cream, even though it took him half a day to make it all. And I have to remind myself that this is why we do the harder stuff too, and not just academics... My 20-20 hindsight is a path full of regrets with lots of mistakes. This is simply our story (in lightning condensed version.) When our ds was 9, I could never have predicted the child he would be at 14. At 9, he had a heart of gold. He was super sensitive to the hurts of his younger siblings. Extreme ADHD seemed to be his most disabling comorbid condition. At 14 I couldn't have predicted what he would be like at 16. At 14, he dealt with everything by obsessing over his artwork. He would draw the same picture hour after hour seeking perfection. There were days I could not get him to stop and he would draw the same picture over and over for 14 hrs. At 16, he had horrible angry rages, so much so that his younger siblings started exhibiting PTSD symptoms. On the other side of puberty, thankfully the rages stopped. As an adult, anxiety is is greatest disabling comorbid condition. His anxiety causes him to completely shut down. At 14, one of his therapists infuriated me. He said, "All of the education in the world won't matter if he can't hold a job." Even with his obsessive behaviors, ds was an incredibly successful student. I was insulted that he insinuated that our ds wouldn't go on to have a successful career. At 18, we started seeking out adult resources for him. We found a parents support group for parents of adult Aspies. I was horrified bc it was a room full of dozens of parents whose adult kids had bachelor's or master's degrees, were not employed and lived at home in their parents' basements. I remember leaving there that first night thinking, "No way that group has anything in common with us." At 20, ds was doing great in most of his classes. He had meltdowns when assignments were too open-ended or a snowstorm caused classes to be cancelled on the day of finals. He had a high GPA. BUT, we had a serious confrontation over course selection. He didn't see any point in taking classes he thought were useless and irrelevant to his goals. It came to a head and we laid down the law that he had to either take courses progressing toward a degree or he had to withdraw from school. He opted to withdraw from school. He is now 26. He has worked full-time at Goodwill since then. He lives in a basement apt in our home. I am incredibly thankful he is employed full-time, but he is severely under-employed. All of those "things" that I refused to accept as possible realities for our ds have obviously become our reality. Not just his, but thousands of other Aspies just like him. (Statistics show that approx 80% of Aspies are either under or unemployed. Google under and unemployment among aspergers.....Here are just 2 out of pages of hits: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/04/21/401243060/young-adults-with-autism-more-likely-to-be-unemployed-isolated https://moneyish.com/heart/most-college-grads-with-autism-cant-find-jobs-this-group-is-fixing-that/ (a whopping 85% of college grads affected by autism are unemployed, compared to the national unemployment rate of 4.5%,) He has just decided he wants to return to school. We have spent the past several weeks registering him for classes. Whether or not he will be able to cope with all of the changes is yet to be seen. He will continue working full-time while taking 9 hrs. Whether or not he will be able to handle the employment options that come with the degree is also a complete unknown. The good thing is that we know that he can continue to work at Goodwill regardless, so there is nothing to lose and hopefully he will gain more confidence and independence. If we could go back and do it all over again, we would have not spent all of the $$ on college that we did. We would have spent high school developing interests and skills for an entrepreneurial enterprise. We could have helped him manage the business aspect and he could have immersed himself in his interests (which he would thrive doing. Unfortunately, we don't have $$ for that to be an option now bc we spent so much $$ trying to help him become an adult via the same path all of our other kids have taken. A path he was completely incapable of taking. But, if we did, something like owning and running a Magic shop with role playing and game nights would be a place where he could have thrived and succeeded.) But when they are 9 and the future is wide open, it is hard to anticipate the stumbling blocks they might face. We can only do what we think is best. 8 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 Thank you for sharing your experience 8. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4KookieKids Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 Yes, thank you for sharing. I hope my previous post didn’t sound like I was arguing with you. Quite the opposite in fact. I was more thinking out loud about why I sometimes prefer to do the academics instead of focusing on life stuff. Even nine, it is clear to me that my boy does not need to focus on academics right now.., The statistics on autistics being under employed or unemployed are frightening. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 3 hours ago, 4KookieKids said: Yes, thank you for sharing. I hope my previous post didn’t sound like I was arguing with you. Quite the opposite in fact. I was more thinking out loud about why I sometimes prefer to do the academics instead of focusing on life stuff. Even nine, it is clear to me that my boy does not need to focus on academics right now.., The statistics on autistics being under employed or unemployed are frightening. I was agreeing that academics were easy. Bc academics were easy and he was very successful, it made us fool ourselves into thinking that our ds was much higher functioning than he is in reality. As the parent of an adult autistic whose struggles are very real and recognizing the truth that the majority of his autistic peers equally struggle with employment, not only is it a lonely spot to be in for them, it can be a very difficult spot to be in as the parent. Far too often the voices sharing hard truths are dismissed as the outside fringe minority vs the truth of the majority. I can't tell you how many times their struggles are shrugged off by comments like, well, I know so and so is an undiagnosed autistic who is very successful. Or all those computer geeks are autistic. Or everyone knows all the engineers in that dept are autistic. Or they just need to find their niche and they will be fine. It is like somehow those traits they witness in successful people dismiss the real struggles that these young adults are living. There are underspoken "taboo" topics that tend to be suppressed when talking not only with parents of autistic children but also people in general bc they are seen as reactionary, alarming, or limiting/discriminatory. Successful autistic people are touted in a way which is meant to drown out and diminish the voices of those who can't hold employment. (Autism and teenage anger is another one of those topics. It doesn't impact all autistics, so it isn't a real or valid topic of conversation.) Thankfully I have started to see a change in dialogue in the public realm over the past 3 or so yrs. Unemployment issues are starting to be discussed openly and being recognized as huge hurdles. New dialogues are starting with proactive approaches being discussed. Whether or not significant changes will emerge is a question mark. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhattan_Mom Posted July 15, 2018 Author Share Posted July 15, 2018 Incredibly helpful posts. I'm in tears. I'm craving some good advice from mothers with experience and wisdom. It has been a very lonely, isolating journey. DS 10 had a long period of aggressive behavior: as a toddler against his baby sibling (biting the baby's face and hands, leaving deep marks and bruises), as a preschooler against peers (biting and scratching, especially in the face), and in school against peers and occasionally the teacher (biting an arm, scratching, kicking and once poking in the arm with a pencil tip). I think the only reason why he managed to get into his current SN school is that I "reacted" to all of this drama by a) trying every therapeutic help I could get my hands on (ABA, CBT, OT, social skills classes, vision therapy, psychologist, psychiatrist) and b) becoming obsessed with books and reading to the boys. Some therapies were a disaster (ABA) most were somewhat helpful and some exceptionally helpful (CBT, OT) and the books - THE BOOKS - gave him a strength. Part of my motivation with academics is to keep giving DS something "good" that will counterbalance, at least a little, all that is problematic. Mercifully, last summer, all of that aggressive behavior "mellowed" into verbal outbursts with toxic words (he's an 'explosive' kid). For example, I will ask DS if he wants pot stickers for dinner. He will reply, "You are too lazy to make me something healthy so you try to feed me junk food! Well I REFUSE!" He takes 20 minutes to floss, brush, rinse. Any gently nudging to move it along will trigger a torrent of toxic words amounting to the nudger wants him to have rotten teeth and die and early death. He insists on a 10-step exercise routing that take another 20 minutes (and requires me to support him with counts), then he has to practice counting in Japanese. To 90,000 (slip counting by 10s, 100s, 1000s, 10,000s). He MUST do these things and takes whatever time he needs doing them or he will YELL that I am a lazy mother for not supporting him. He asks for academic work at camp (math, history and "physics" which is actually just using a x/y axis to "locale" things, Battleship style). It is a special needs camp and they report he yells at staff quite a bit and that is the behavior they are targeting for improvement. My husband, not a 'natural' parent, is withdrawn. It is all too much for him. (Digression: He is also mildly spectrum but he managed to be a good Catholic schoolboy and an excellent student and medical student. I met him when he had landed his first job and was having problems getting along with colleagues and his boss.. I provided a lot of job coaching and support, helped him navigate office politics, etc. He is now extremely successful, which gives him all the reason he needs to travel extensively for work and not be home much.) What I'm reading in your wonderful, deeply meaningful posts is that I need to really focus like a laser on the social skills. That he cannot go through life yelling at and blaming people when he hits a bump. We've started calling his explosions, 'pressured speech' (since it is wider scope than yelling) and have instituted a house rule banning pressured speech. We met with a psychiatrist who has not yet met him, but based upon his profile and case file things a SSRI might help. Will meet him next week or the following. I have been dead set against medication because I'm feel like it could be a chemical lobotomy. I also feel like it would mean I've failed to be a good mother. Kids back from playing on the deck.. gotta go for now... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhattan_Mom Posted July 15, 2018 Author Share Posted July 15, 2018 Just to finish my thought about medication. I worry that we're not getting to the root cause of things if we medicate. And I feel like THAT is my job as mother, to be the one person in the world with the love and care enough to really get to the bottom of what makes DS 10 so irritable. I don't to just drug him (I realize that may sound obnoxious). I want to work with the 'raw' kid, and use what is left of his childhood to dig deep and find out why he behaves the way he does - and confront it and address it. He is not a wild boy, nor is he mean. He has always had friends at school who really want to be with him. He is incredibly imaginative, playful and loves to make (legos, magnatiles, tegus) and make-believe (he will still play waiter/chef and make/serve fake food). When he is triggered he becomes so explosive. He SCOWLS, his fist ball, his stomach tightens and horrible things will come out of his mouth. It has been an utterly exhausting decade, constantly digging into what went wrong, calming him, smoothing things over, helping him solve his issue, make amends, etc. Ironically he just came in demanding academic work (division, fractions) "so his brain won't soften up." Thanks for listening. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freesia Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 Oh, Manhattan Mom, I can see how hard it's been for you. But having him take meds does not make you a failure as a Mom. The right meds are nothing like a lobotomy and often let you get to the root of the issue by correcting the brain chemistry. If he struggles with anxiety, it is so hard to learn coping skills while anxious or depressed. You will still have the raw kid. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawyer&Mom Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 A couple thoughts. First, you are amazing. I could not cope with such a difficult kid. (That’s not hyperbole or flattery, I would get sensory overload and shut down. It just wouldn’t work.) So I’m very impressed you are coping as well as you are, and I understand why your husband might not be able to cope as well. Second, when I finally got my SSRIs in my late thirties, the first thing I thought was that I should have done it years ago. I know they are not supposed to help Autism, and I was taking them for comorbid depression, but I do think they help my Autism too, even if just giving me an extra bit of bandwidth to deal when I am overwhelmed. Third, yes, social is incredibly important. But academics feed my soul. Still, even as a grown-up. They ground me. (Teaching myself French now for my sanity.). He may need academics for his well-being, regardless of future employment. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 1 hour ago, freesia said: Oh, Manhattan Mom, I can see how hard it's been for you. But having him take meds does not make you a failure as a Mom. The right meds are nothing like a lobotomy and often let you get to the root of the issue by correcting the brain chemistry. If he struggles with anxiety, it is so hard to learn coping skills while anxious or depressed. You will still have the raw kid. Not only is the above true and excellent advice, I would strongly urge you to focus on getting his volatility under some sort of self-control before he starts hitting puberty which can start around 12. i didn't go into details with about our ds, but his obsessive behaviors started to flare into high gear during puberty. Interfering with his obsessive behavior (whatever it happened to be) led to violent outbursts. When he was obsessed with drawing, asking him to stop led to him stabbing his pencil into the wall. When we moved out of that house, I must have repaired over 1000 pencil holes in walls. I won't go on, but at one point we had to have him hospitalized. We ultimately ended up having to send him to boarding school for 6 months. One of his little sisters started hiding under tables or behind sofas whenever she heard his voice and she was exhibiting symptoms of severe stress. It came down to having to balance the needs of all of the children with his needs. That was a horrible time in my life and not a time I care to think about too much. (My 20 and 22 yr olds have large portions of that time that they have completely blocked out of their memories, though it was our 16 yr old, who was 5 at the time, who caused us to send ds to boarding school.) I share this bc our ds did not have volatile outbursts prior to puberty. He had a lot of issues, but explosive anger was not one of them. It does overwhelm me to think about what puberty would have been like if he had already had volatile reactions to things. Meds are not bad. If they help, they can be a Godsend. If he starts meds, I strongly encourage you both to keep med diaries. Both of you write down how you see his behaviors and emotions every single day. As you go through med and dosage trials, those diaries will be a lifeline of accurate assessments bc things can all start to blur and memories become unreliable. SSRIs were awful for our ds bc he became severely depressed and started cutting and all sorts of downward spiral behaviors. But, for other people they change their lives for the better. Regardless, you need to pay close attention to him as he tries different meds. You become his monitor and advocate. And, you tune out voices that tell you you're a bad mother for trying meds. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhattan_Mom Posted July 16, 2018 Author Share Posted July 16, 2018 At work but had to send a quick note of deeply grateful thanks for this incredibly helpful feedback. So much good, practical advice and support. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 20 hours ago, Manhattan_Mom said: Incredibly helpful posts. I'm in tears. I'm craving some good advice from mothers with experience and wisdom. It has been a very lonely, isolating journey. DS 10 had a long period of aggressive behavior: as a toddler against his baby sibling (biting the baby's face and hands, leaving deep marks and bruises), as a preschooler against peers (biting and scratching, especially in the face), and in school against peers and occasionally the teacher (biting an arm, scratching, kicking and once poking in the arm with a pencil tip). I think the only reason why he managed to get into his current SN school is that I "reacted" to all of this drama by a) trying every therapeutic help I could get my hands on (ABA, CBT, OT, social skills classes, vision therapy, psychologist, psychiatrist) and b) becoming obsessed with books and reading to the boys. Some therapies were a disaster (ABA) most were somewhat helpful and some exceptionally helpful (CBT, OT) and the books - THE BOOKS - gave him a strength. Part of my motivation with academics is to keep giving DS something "good" that will counterbalance, at least a little, all that is problematic. Mercifully, last summer, all of that aggressive behavior "mellowed" into verbal outbursts with toxic words (he's an 'explosive' kid). For example, I will ask DS if he wants pot stickers for dinner. He will reply, "You are too lazy to make me something healthy so you try to feed me junk food! Well I REFUSE!" He takes 20 minutes to floss, brush, rinse. Any gently nudging to move it along will trigger a torrent of toxic words amounting to the nudger wants him to have rotten teeth and die and early death. He insists on a 10-step exercise routing that take another 20 minutes (and requires me to support him with counts), then he has to practice counting in Japanese. To 90,000 (slip counting by 10s, 100s, 1000s, 10,000s). He MUST do these things and takes whatever time he needs doing them or he will YELL that I am a lazy mother for not supporting him. He asks for academic work at camp (math, history and "physics" which is actually just using a x/y axis to "locale" things, Battleship style). It is a special needs camp and they report he yells at staff quite a bit and that is the behavior they are targeting for improvement. My husband, not a 'natural' parent, is withdrawn. It is all too much for him. (Digression: He is also mildly spectrum but he managed to be a good Catholic schoolboy and an excellent student and medical student. I met him when he had landed his first job and was having problems getting along with colleagues and his boss.. I provided a lot of job coaching and support, helped him navigate office politics, etc. He is now extremely successful, which gives him all the reason he needs to travel extensively for work and not be home much.) What I'm reading in your wonderful, deeply meaningful posts is that I need to really focus like a laser on the social skills. That he cannot go through life yelling at and blaming people when he hits a bump. We've started calling his explosions, 'pressured speech' (since it is wider scope than yelling) and have instituted a house rule banning pressured speech. We met with a psychiatrist who has not yet met him, but based upon his profile and case file things a SSRI might help. Will meet him next week or the following. I have been dead set against medication because I'm feel like it could be a chemical lobotomy. I also feel like it would mean I've failed to be a good mother. Kids back from playing on the deck.. gotta go for now... You might take a look at dialectical behaviour therapy resources. This type of therapy was developed originally to help people with borderline personality disorder but is being expanded to addressing other issues. It aims to teach self regulation skills. I sent my oldest and my husband to a dbt program last year for teens and parents; this child struggles somewhat with anxiety and is otherwise neurotypical, but with mental health difficulties running in my family I wanted to invest in proactive skill building. If I can afford it I may enroll each of my kids as teenagers; more likely I will try to learn and teach the skills myself. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 It looks like research into DBT and autism spectrum disorders is limited (it is a newer approach) but this article suggests it may prove helpful: "Psychoeducation and acceptance-based approaches may be especially helpful, given the chronic and pervasive nature of ASD. Indeed, a premise of dialectical behavior therapy (DBT46), a well-supported treatment for borderline personality disorder which is characterized by extreme emotion dysregulation, is balancing acceptance of self (as is) with desire for change. Although there has been consideration of how to adapt DBT for clients with ASD,47there have been no clinical trials and there is no published treatment outcome research. Mindfulness and acceptance-based approaches (MABIs), such as DBT, have been used extensively to treat problems with ER. MABIs differ from traditional CBT primarily in how the patient’s relationship to his/her feelings and thoughts is conceptualized. Rather than identification and alteration of maladaptive or incorrect thoughts and unhelpful feelings (CBT), MABIs strive to help the patient change his relationship with (or view of) the problem, become less fused with his own thoughts (accepting a thought as just a thought), and behave in a fashion consistent with his goals and values.48 MABIs are associated with strong and durable improvements in symptoms of anxiety and depression and increased use of adaptive ER strategies,49 and have recently been shown to be as effective as CBT for treatment of anxiety.50" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3830422/ 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 8 minutes ago, maize said: It looks like research into DBT and autism spectrum disorders is limited (it is a newer approach) but this article suggests it may prove helpful: "Psychoeducation and acceptance-based approaches may be especially helpful, given the chronic and pervasive nature of ASD. Indeed, a premise of dialectical behavior therapy (DBT46), a well-supported treatment for borderline personality disorder which is characterized by extreme emotion dysregulation, is balancing acceptance of self (as is) with desire for change. Although there has been consideration of how to adapt DBT for clients with ASD,47there have been no clinical trials and there is no published treatment outcome research. Mindfulness and acceptance-based approaches (MABIs), such as DBT, have been used extensively to treat problems with ER. MABIs differ from traditional CBT primarily in how the patient’s relationship to his/her feelings and thoughts is conceptualized. Rather than identification and alteration of maladaptive or incorrect thoughts and unhelpful feelings (CBT), MABIs strive to help the patient change his relationship with (or view of) the problem, become less fused with his own thoughts (accepting a thought as just a thought), and behave in a fashion consistent with his goals and values.48 MABIs are associated with strong and durable improvements in symptoms of anxiety and depression and increased use of adaptive ER strategies,49 and have recently been shown to be as effective as CBT for treatment of anxiety.50" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3830422/ Thank you for sharing this. I sounds like this is an approach that would be helpful for our ds. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanin Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Hi Manhattan Mom, I’m so sorry you’ve got so much stress to handle. I agree with you that your boys should stay in their current schools. For the past four years, I’ve worked at a school for kids with learning disabilities. Many of them are on the autism spectrum, and some of them have strong outbursts like your son. I think it would be really challenging for you to do everything he needs at home - at school, he has a whole team of people working with him, challenging and supporting him, and constantly strategizing ways to help him meet his goals. Having a whole team of adults is so valuable. It sounds to me like he hasn’t been there very long? I have a feeling you’ll see big changes the longer he stays there. I agree with other posters that focusing on the emotional/social aspects of his life are most important right now. He’s clearly a bright boy, and can handle academics just fine, and even math with support. You can continue to challenge him intellectually at home, but I wouldn’t pressure yourself to come up with any specific curriculum. Over on the Learning Challenge board, there’s some discussion of diet influencing behavior. If you’re interested, you could head over there and post. Some people have also been talking about doing detective work with DNA analysis to find better med/supplement matches. My heart goes out to you and your family. I hope you will find lots of helpful information on this forum! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 Manhattan Mom, my oldest was an explosive child from age 8 to 12. I don't want to go into the details on the board, but it was pretty horrible and had a large impact on my younger. I found a book that really helped me change my parenting style to work better with his reality - The Explosive Child by Greene. The author is a psychologist who deals with explosive children with all sorts of labels, and his approach is very straightforward and doable. Implementing his techniques turned my life around, made the situation more containable, and gave both of my children a more consistent and effective parent. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhattan_Mom Posted July 19, 2018 Author Share Posted July 19, 2018 @lewelma "The Explosive Child" by Ross Greene saved my life about four years ago when my consequences-centric (aka lots of punishments and time outs) were failing to change my older's behavior. I read the book and immediately signed up for and took a two-day parent training bootcamp with Dr. Greene. I translated the CPS model into a PPT deck which I presented to his teachers and school psychologist at the school he was attending at the time. At the end of the day, properly administering the ALSUP, clearing the deck (ie using plan C for a lot of lower priority issues), carving out time for empathy step, invitation and brainstorming solutions was just too much to ask. The teachers found it interesting but the "sticker chart to motivate / consequences to dissuade" model of behavioral management is, frankly. simpler to implement. When we were looking at SN schools for older DS and we interviewed at his current school, the administration were familiar with Greene's model and implemented it 'in spirit.' That alone won me over to the school. At home I blend CPS with a gem from Alan Kazdin's parenting model, the 'positive opposite' ie identifying the positive opposite of undesirable behavior (yelling explosively --> stating in a calm voice) and, using labeled praise, rewarding the heck out if it when it occurs naturally. All of this takes a lot of 'thinking time' and vigilance. It is easier to take good behavior for granted and only react with punishment when there is a problem. ULTIMATELY I need to empower older DS to essentially apply CPS to himself when mom (or school) is not there to provide supports. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhattan_Mom Posted August 5, 2018 Author Share Posted August 5, 2018 Great news. I was offered and accepted a PT scientific editing position working from home at the very institution where I currently work (a top NYC cancer hospital research institute). I'm still working out the details but I hope to complete the transition by the end of August. Current boss is very sad to see me go and trying various offers and deals to keep me, but I simply cannot turn this opportunity down. Working PT (20-25h/wk) from home in an intellectually stimulating role suits me perfectly right now. We can swing it and I am craving more bandwidth to provide more nurturing and support to the boys. I feel such relief and excitement. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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