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Executive order signed overturning family separation


Katy
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I am very glad that the administration was forced to back down on this, although clearly the situation is a long way from actually being resolved.

Separately from the immigration dimension, though, I think that homeschool parents concerned about parental rights should be paying close attention to what's going on here.  The underlying notion that it is good public policy to take children into extended government custody in order to discourage their parents from criminal behavior (in this case, a nonviolent misdemeanor) seems worrisome, to say the least.

I actually think that if and when this makes it to the federal courts it will ultimately be declared an unconstitutional due process violation --even for undocumented non-citizen children. (The relevant case here is Plyler v. Doe.) However, the fact that it is happening at all, and that a significant minority of people think it is perfectly reasonable to use child separation as a deterrent to undesirable behavior, is certainly notable.   

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The undesireable behavior is much more than just crossing the border without papers.  It's putting the kids' lives and health in serious danger.  We all know that most of these people are not fleeing torture, they are coming for economic reasons.  The vast majority of kids placed in detention weren't even with their parent or relative, but came with strangers or "alone."

Kids can and do die on this journey, are regularly injured, raped and abused, are made to commit crimes, and are often enslaved or abandoned by their handlers after they make it across the border.  The same kids who are often used as an excuse to be released instead of detained (at least under previous practice).

Personally I think it is appropriate to have a deterrent against such horrible treatment of kids.

I had the cops called on me for leaving a couple school-aged kids in a cool car for 2.5 minutes.  A fair % of you guys said you'd have called the cops on me too, and some said I shouldn't even have kids if I cared so little about them.  And yet if I think people shouldn't be rewarded for what these undocumented migrant kids are put through, I'm a terrible person.  Obviously I don't care about kids at all.

But anyway, we all know this is really just a political issue, because the same things were happening for years and nobody cared then.  I find it amazing that it is now keeping everyone up at night when it wasn't even a blip before.

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1 hour ago, TechWife said:

It’s not impossible. They have been conducting interviews for years to determine this. They can also use DNA testing in the case of biological children. Verifying adopted children would be harder, especially if the government of their home country is in tatters. However, interviews and witnesses would play a large part in those circumstances. 

 

But doesn't DNA take a while? And then there is the cost. These issues will always be difficult I think. There were some interesting suggestions in the "alternatives..." link.

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Just now, Liz CA said:

 

But doesn't DNA take a while? And then there is the cost. These issues will always be difficult I think. There were some interesting suggestions in the "alternatives..." link.

Usually legal documents are enough to prove a relationship, except with people from a few countries where the documents are generally unreliable (I’m thinking of countries like Yemen and Somalia, not Guatemala and El Salvador). If the documents are inconclusive, then DNA is a good option.  It does take time and is expensive, but it doesn’t have to be the default.  The US government is quite experienced at looking for fraud in vital documents.

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2 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Great than 98 percent of people do show up for hearings if enrolled in those programs, the law gets enforced, and it costs us a fraction of the money that deportation does, and is more humane in every way. But....the powers that be would rather channel money to private prisons than to pay for social workers. 

Please link sources for where the 98% number comes from.   I'd be interested in how case workers and lawyers keep people from intentionally not showing up for court hearings and disappearing into the country.

In 2016, for example, "non-detained aliens" failed to show up for court hearings in 39% of completed immigration cases.  (It was 44% in 2015.)  https://www.justice.gov/eoir/page/file/fysb16/download

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5 minutes ago, SKL said:

The undesireable behavior is much more than just crossing the border without papers.  It's putting the kids' lives and health in serious danger.  We all know that most of these people are not fleeing torture, they are coming for economic reasons.  The vast majority of kids placed in detention weren't even with their parent or relative, but came with strangers or "alone."

Kids can and do die on this journey, are regularly injured, raped and abused, are made to commit crimes, and are often enslaved or abandoned by their handlers after they make it across the border.  The same kids who are often used as an excuse to be released instead of detained (at least under previous practice).

Personally I think it is appropriate to have a deterrent against such horrible treatment of kids.

I had the cops called on me for leaving a couple school-aged kids in a cool car for 2.5 minutes.  A fair % of you guys said you'd have called the cops on me too, and some said I shouldn't even have kids if I cared so little about them.  And yet if I think people shouldn't be rewarded for what these undocumented migrant kids are put through, I'm a terrible person.  Obviously I don't care about kids at all.

But anyway, we all know this is really just a political issue, because the same things were happening for years and nobody cared then.  I find it amazing that it is now keeping everyone up at night when it wasn't even a blip before.

You don't think the bolded was already a deterrent to people sending their children?What deterrent do you suggest that is MORE harsh than than bolded? Don't you think that if people are willing to risk all that, they must in fact be pretty desperate?

As for it was already happening, not this particular policy, no, it wasn't, not on this scale. We were detaining children on their own, because well, what else do you do, until you find their family? But we were not widely separating children from their families as they crossed and then pretending they were unaccompanied. 

 

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8 minutes ago, Liz CA said:

 

But doesn't DNA take a while? And then there is the cost. These issues will always be difficult I think. There were some interesting suggestions in the "alternatives..." link.

Compared to the cost of building tent cities and hiring licensed childcare workers for massive numbers of children? Pretty sure in comparison it's pretty cheap. 

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2 minutes ago, 6packofun said:

Please link sources for where the 98% number comes from.   I'd be interested in how case workers and lawyers keep people from intentionally not showing up for court hearings and disappearing into the country.

In 2016, for example, "non-detained aliens" failed to show up for court hearings in 39% of completed immigration cases.  (It was 44% in 2015.)  https://www.justice.gov/eoir/page/file/fysb16/download

Statistics, with sources, are in the link already shared, about alternatives to detention. Turns out, if you help people with legal aid and social workers and transportation they show up. Because they WANT legal status. 

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Just now, Ktgrok said:

Compared to the cost of building tent cities and hiring licensed childcare workers for massive numbers of children? Pretty sure in comparison it's pretty cheap. 

 

I was more thinking where would adults and children be kept while they are awaiting the results of DNA testing. What would happen if it turned out that a child was not a blood relative? None of this has easy answers, of course.

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17 minutes ago, SKL said:

The undesireable behavior is much more than just crossing the border without papers.  It's putting the kids' lives and health in serious danger.  We all know that most of these people are not fleeing torture, they are coming for economic reasons.  The vast majority of kids placed in detention weren't even with their parent or relative, but came with strangers or "alone."

Kids can and do die on this journey, are regularly injured, raped and abused, are made to commit crimes, and are often enslaved or abandoned by their handlers after they make it across the border.  The same kids who are often used as an excuse to be released instead of detained (at least under previous practice).

Personally I think it is appropriate to have a deterrent against such horrible treatment of kids.

I had the cops called on me for leaving a couple school-aged kids in a cool car for 2.5 minutes.  A fair % of you guys said you'd have called the cops on me too, and some said I shouldn't even have kids if I cared so little about them.  And yet if I think people shouldn't be rewarded for what these undocumented migrant kids are put through, I'm a terrible person.  Obviously I don't care about kids at all.

But anyway, we all know this is really just a political issue, because the same things were happening for years and nobody cared then.  I find it amazing that it is now keeping everyone up at night when it wasn't even a blip before.

Individuals in earlier posts explained how things are now different. I disagree that it’s just a political issue, it’s a humanitarian issue. If you have Netflix, you might be interested in an Australian series called, “Go Back Where You Came From”. It takes Australian citizens from across the political spectrum and has them travel backwards in time through the countries where asylum seekers come from, staying with families along the way.

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28 minutes ago, Liz CA said:

 

But doesn't DNA take a while? And then there is the cost. These issues will always be difficult I think. There were some interesting suggestions in the "alternatives..." link.

Technically, DNA results can take as little as 1-2 days. However, that assumes funding for labs and people to run the tests. Otherwise, the requested tests wait in line until they come to the top of the pile. If this were a significant concern, we would find a way to fund it.

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28 minutes ago, Liz CA said:

 

I was more thinking where would adults and children be kept while they are awaiting the results of DNA testing. What would happen if it turned out that a child was not a blood relative? None of this has easy answers, of course.

The same places they are now, or we could go for some of the other options that have been listed in this thread. If a child turns out not to be a blood relative, then efforts should be made to identify them, locate their parents (assuming they have living parents) and return them to the custody of their parents. I would think we already do this for those occasions when child trafficking or kidnapping occurs. Again, this stuff isn't hard, these are logistical questions that have answers and should already have procedures in place.

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42 minutes ago, SKL said:

 We all know that most of these people are not fleeing torture, they are coming for economic reasons. 

But anyway, we all know this is really just a political issue, because the same things were happening for years and nobody cared then.  I find it amazing that it is now keeping everyone up at night when it wasn't even a blip before.

I didn't realize we know that definitively - is there a report from DHS that shows why people are applying for asylum? It would be interesting to read. I don't think most of us have said people are claiming torture.  Also, you do realize that "economic reasons" includes not being able to eat, and that is often caused by the government in the country of origin, right?

Also, I think it's great that more people are becoming educated about refugees and how asylum works here in the US. Informed citizens are strong citizens. People let things keep them up at night when they are aware of them and care about them.

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4 hours ago, SKL said:

Right, I think it makes more sense to receive and consider the asylum requests while they are still outside the US.

I don't think you can claim assylum from outside the country.  If in the old days you were a soviet wanting to defect didn't you wait until you were out of the Soviet Union? It would be a bit damgerous to do it from the country you were from.

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2 hours ago, SKL said:

The undesireable behavior is much more than just crossing the border without papers.  It's putting the kids' lives and health in serious danger.  We all know that most of these people are not fleeing torture, they are coming for economic reasons.  The vast majority of kids placed in detention weren't even with their parent or relative, but came with strangers or "alone."

Kids can and do die on this journey, are regularly injured, raped and abused, are made to commit crimes, and are often enslaved or abandoned by their handlers after they make it across the border.  The same kids who are often used as an excuse to be released instead of detained (at least under previous practice).

 

 

First let me say that for pragmatic reasons I do think there needs to be a limit on how many people are admitted into a country (I truly wish I didn't believe that but don't see how it would work). However, the US is not anywhere close to the point where migrants/refugees/immigrants are a severe strain for the country.

Either way I can't agree with you. Even if people come for economic reasons that is hardly unprecedented in the US. Many (or even most) people came to the US for exactly that reason. And immigrating to the US has always been dangerous. Poor economic conditions can definitely be a danger for kids as well (malnutrition, no chance for education etc.)

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, SKL said:

The undesireable behavior is much more than just crossing the border without papers.  It's putting the kids' lives and health in serious danger.  We all know that most of these people are not fleeing torture, they are coming for economic reasons.  The vast majority of kids placed in detention weren't even with their parent or relative, but came with strangers or "alone."

Kids can and do die on this journey, are regularly injured, raped and abused, are made to commit crimes, and are often enslaved or abandoned by their handlers after they make it across the border.  The same kids who are often used as an excuse to be released instead of detained (at least under previous practice).

Personally I think it is appropriate to have a deterrent against such horrible treatment of kids.

I had the cops called on me for leaving a couple school-aged kids in a cool car for 2.5 minutes.  A fair % of you guys said you'd have called the cops on me too, and some said I shouldn't even have kids if I cared so little about them.  And yet if I think people shouldn't be rewarded for what these undocumented migrant kids are put through, I'm a terrible person.  Obviously I don't care about kids at all.

But anyway, we all know this is really just a political issue, because the same things were happening for years and nobody cared then.  I find it amazing that it is now keeping everyone up at night when it wasn't even a blip before.

 

This is a humanitarian issue.  Trying to make it a political one is telling. 

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11 hours ago, PinkyandtheBrains. said:

 

Families should never have been separated, and this EO is not anything to celebrate.  I have some relief that children may be returned to their families in detention, but it’s not much.  

I have more thoughts but they are still processing in my mind. 

 

Unfortunately, there is currently no real plan to return the children who have already been taken.

Heath & Human Services initially said that they would NOT be reunited, then they back-tracked and said they might be, but admitted that there was currently no plan for doing so. Once the kids are taken away, they are reclassified as "unaccompanied minors" and go into a totally separate system that moves much slower than the adult system. So the parents may have their cases heard and be deported before their children's cases have even been heard. 

Children were still being transported from Texas to NYC tonight.

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35 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

 

Unfortunately, there is currently no real plan to return the children who have already been taken.

Heath & Human Services initially said that they would NOT be reunited, then they back-tracked and said they might be, but admitted that there was currently no plan for doing so. Once the kids are taken away, they are reclassified as "unaccompanied minors" and go into a totally separate system that moves much slower than the adult system. So the parents may have their cases heard and be deported before their children's cases have even been heard. 

Children were still being transported from Texas to NYC tonight.

 

See, that is the point where they lose me... I CAN understand different opinions about how strict borders should be/how immigration laws should be reformed etc. I may not agree with someone's position but I can generally see the point.

But this is just senseless cruelty. Clearly, taking the children like this was wrong. So they need to be returned asap. It doesn't matter whether they were "reclassified" (they are children not files). They just need to be reclassified again. Someone messed up - now they need to fix this. I can understand if it might take a couple of weeks or even if there is a small number of kids for which it takes longer (that's not okay but it may be unavoidable). They must have some sort of record of where the kids went etc. - they just need to figure this out.

 

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8 hours ago, Liz CA said:

 

I was more thinking where would adults and children be kept while they are awaiting the results of DNA testing. What would happen if it turned out that a child was not a blood relative? None of this has easy answers, of course.

Honestly, we will probably miss some. 

But the process of detaining everyone DEFINITELY traumatizes all the kids, in hopes of deterring a few people that MIGHT traumatize kids. 

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4 hours ago, Corraleno said:

 

Unfortunately, there is currently no real plan to return the children who have already been taken.

Heath & Human Services initially said that they would NOT be reunited, then they back-tracked and said they might be, but admitted that there was currently no plan for doing so. Once the kids are taken away, they are reclassified as "unaccompanied minors" and go into a totally separate system that moves much slower than the adult system. So the parents may have their cases heard and be deported before their children's cases have even been heard. 

Children were still being transported from Texas to NYC tonight.

 

 

I saw saw that later. ?

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