Jump to content

Menu

8 top private DC high schools drop APs


Recommended Posts

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/06/18/eight-private-high-schools-washington-area-are-dropping-out-ap-program

In a joint statement, they said that they were responding to "the diminished utility of AP courses and the desirability of developing our own advanced courses that more effectively address our students’ needs and interests. Collectively, we believe a curriculum oriented toward collaborative, experiential, and interdisciplinary learning will not only better prepare our students for college and their professional futures, but also result in more engaging programs for both students and faculty. We expect this approach will appeal to students’ innate curiosity, increase their motivation, and fuel their love of learning."

  • Like 12
Link to comment
Share on other sites

And nobody questions the quality of instruction in those schools. The kids at those schools are some of the most privileged ones in the nation.

 

While I don’t disagree that AP isn’t the only road, for some of the kids in our neighboring districts with terrible schools, enrolling in AP courses and scoring well on those exams might be the only ways to stand out. Their schools names or grades granted will certainly not say much. 

  • Like 15
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, FairProspects said:

In other words, the student body for each of these schools is affluent enough not to need the college credit so it matters little anyway.

 

That seems a little harsh.  

I'm in the middle of revising my AP European History syllabus to bring it into accordance with the CB framework, which was revised since the last time I taught it.  My older kids did 5-8 AP courses (most of them home taught).  My youngest did one last year.  I agree with the comments from the schools that the AP course requirements don't always add value to the classes.

It can be a marker of content understanding.  A kid who can get a 5 on AP English is going to bring a certain competence to college than can be counted on.  But it is also worth asking what the opportunity costs of the course are. 

For example, the history free response questions require a very particular style of essay writing and have very specific grading criteria.  I think my kid learned as much or more from classes where he had to write an 8-12 page research paper, do peer edits on others, revise his based on comments received, and also do things like work in a research library and show proper citations.  

I will confess that despite being half-way through this latest AP syllabus, I'm tempted to say no AP course audit, teach the class I want to, and have him just take the test.  I'm also tempted to not bother with the AP trappings for this course at all, and let him have more time for physics and engineering.  

On the other hand, colleges certainly know what they are getting with a student applying out of Sidwell Friends or St. Albans.  They don't know the level of academic rigor at my homeschool.

  • Like 15
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Sebastian (a lady) said:

 

That seems a little harsh.  

I'm in the middle of revising my AP European History syllabus to bring it into accordance with the CB framework, which was revised since the last time I taught it.  My older kids did 5-8 AP courses (most of them home taught).  My youngest did one last year.  I agree with the comments from the schools that the AP course requirements don't always add value to the classes.

It can be a marker of content understanding.  A kid who can get a 5 on AP English is going to bring a certain competence to college than can be counted on.  But it is also worth asking what the opportunity costs of the course are. 

For example, the history free response questions require a very particular style of essay writing and have very specific grading criteria.  I think my kid learned as much or more from classes where he had to write an 8-12 page research paper, do peer edits on others, revise his based on comments received, and also do things like work in a research library and show proper citations.  

I will confess that despite being half-way through this latest AP syllabus, I'm tempted to say no AP course audit, teach the class I want to, and have him just take the test.  I'm also tempted to not bother with the AP trappings for this course at all, and let him have more time for physics and engineering.  

On the other hand, colleges certainly know what they are getting with a student applying out of Sidwell Friends or St. Albans.  They don't know the level of academic rigor at my homeschool.

Sebastian,

Do the AP audit, teach the class how you want to, and then let him take the test.

One of the most respected teachers in APUSH first flipped his class. Then he joined forces with the AP English teacher to create a combined American Studies class. You know, that weird concept of reading literature from the same period of history that you are studying. His students come to class having accessed the material, he doesn't review it and they go straight into discussion and application. Kind of like homeschooling.?

We sent scores after we saw the results. If all goes well, you have the audit in place.

To the general readers:

Dual enrollment wasn't an easy access or all that affordable for us.  I don't regret the nine AP exams and the two additional classes that Sailor Dude took, but didn't take the exam for.  31 credits accepted by his school and graduating in three years. He's never been at an academic disadvantage because he took the APs. That said, even two years ago, several of the schools that he was admitted to, would only take AP as elective credits. Taking AP classes can't be just for the exam; it has to be for a genuine challenge that makes a good foundation for the work still to come.

I certainly have issues with the College Board and the way some of the classes are developed (like the history classes), but for some students APs are a viable pathway.

 

  • Like 11
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ugh, I hate these headlines; this was also posted in my public school district parent Facebook group. These schools can afford to drop APs (and yet, hilarious they all do it together in coordination, to make extra sure the parents don’t scream) because they offer many many classes that are so far past AP. I haven’t looked at their curriculum, but a local school (private, naturally) that offers no APs also offers so many (for example) advanced French classes, that a high school student taking all those classes there would have taken more classes than a French major college student in my local public 4 year uni. The latter will go on to teach French I guess...The inequality in the education system continues to be unbelievable to me. 

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, swimmermom3 said:

Sebastian,

Do the AP audit, teach the class how you want to, and then let him take the test.

One of the most respected teachers in APUSH first flipped his class. Then he joined forces with the AP English teacher to create a combined American Studies class. You know, that weird concept of reading literature from the same period of history that you are studying. His students come to class having accessed the material, he doesn't review it and they go straight into discussion and application. Kind of like homeschooling.?

We sent scores after we saw the results. If all goes well, you have the audit in place.

To the general readers:

Dual enrollment wasn't an easy access or all that affordable for us.  I don't regret the nine AP exams and the two additional classes that Sailor Dude took, but didn't take the exam for.  31 credits accepted by his school and graduating in three years. He's never been at an academic disadvantage because he took the APs. That said, even two years ago, several of the schools that he was admitted to, would only take AP as elective credits. Taking AP classes can't be just for the exam; it has to be for a genuine challenge that makes a good foundation for the work still to come.

I certainly have issues with the College Board and the way some of the classes are developed (like the history classes), but for some students APs are a viable pathway.

 

 

Part of my quandary is trying to discern if I'm planning AP European History because it is a good fit for his interests, or is something that he will do well enough in to help college admissions and maybe hit an elective credit, or simply because I'm better at planning history courses than physics and engineering courses.

I know I can do a great European history course.  I can even do one that meets the requirements for the audit.  Even one that preps a student well for the exam.  

I'm not completely sue if that course is the best choice for this kid.  I caution people about this all the time.  I'm trying to figure it out myself for this particular situation.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I for one would be happy to see AP classes go.  From my experience, those who really get into them know the system or have parents who do, and it has  become a system and a bit of a marketing scheme.  I see lots of typical A-students who do the required work but don't really know how to think deeply on their own, but hold onto their AP credits like a badge.  I do think colleges are learning that AP courses aren't necessarily the best way to weed out the best students.  A lot of colleges anymore only accept a very small amount of AP classes or accept them but don't allow it to meet required credits.

I'd rather my kids took a class with a teacher who was creative and really knew how to get the attention of her particular students and had a talent in teaching, rather than just going through an AP checklist.

Also, I beg to differ that eliminating AP classes hurts less affluent schools.  That's definitely not always the case.  In the state I live in, I believe the majority of rural and small-town schools cannot afford many AP classes at all.  So, these schools end up having very few AP classes (probably two or three at the most), while the bigger metropolitan high schools can offer them in nearly every subject.  So, the rural/small town schools are graduating students with very few (if any) AP courses on their records, even if they are great students.

The one high school in our community only offers three.  One of them is a joke.  Just a checklist with no required independent thinking.

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, J-rap said:

Well, I for one would be happy to see AP classes go.  From my experience, those who really get into them know the system or have parents who do, and it has  become a system and a bit of a marketing scheme.  I see lots of typical A-students who do the required work but don't really know how to think deeply on their own, but hold onto their AP credits like a badge.  I do think colleges are learning that AP courses aren't necessarily the best way to weed out the best students.  A lot of colleges anymore only accept a very small amount of AP classes or accept them but don't allow it to meet required credits.

I'd rather my kids took a class with a teacher who was creative and really knew how to get the attention of her particular students and had a talent in teaching, rather than just going through an AP checklist.

 

I started to write a reply, but this says what I wanted to more elegantly. After watching DS17 tackle 5 AP classes to date, I've concluded that they just do not reflect college level thinking. The teachers were good, but when students are typically taking 6-7 classes at a time, there just isn't enough time to go as deeply into an AP class as might be desirable.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My personal view is that I am glad that they articulated the reasons why they are dropping them.  They are the same reasons we don't actively pursue them in our homeschool. 

APs serve a purpose. That purpose should be evaluated and educators should individually determine whether or not their purpose matches their students' needs vs. adopting a universal policy that all students are best served by the narrow AP list of courses and testing focus.  There are innumerable courses students can take and equal innumerable approaches to studying content.  I think Sebastian's post, 

Quote

I'm not completely sue if that course is the best choice for this kid.  I caution people about this all the time.  I'm trying to figure it out myself for this particular situation

touches on one of the key issues.  Not the only one, but an important one.

FWIW, I personally disagree with the sentiment that APs are necessary for validating our homeschool's strength.  I don't homeschool to replicate ps and I am not going simply going to throw my homeschool philosophy to the wind and submit that APs are the only way demonstrate high levels of achievement.  Neither do I believe that DE is the only other path.  

In terms of receiving credit, that is dependent on individual university policies.  My current college student is a sophomore with jr standing.  She entered with 33 credits but she never took a single AP course and only 1 DE course.  Her school gives credit for CLEP exams.  CLEPs do not require any specific course content to be covered.  Basically, if you study a subject, you stand a decent chance of passing the exam.   The courses she took CLEP exams for matched courses she had to have to meet state graduation requirements/college admission requirements.  (US history, gov't, cal, English, etc.)

But, even if the school hadn't given CLEP credit, she would not have altered the courses she took for high school just for credits.  She spent her high school yrs studying exactly the subject matter she wanted to study.  Her literature courses were uniquely designed around her interests.  Her history courses were equally non-traditional, definitely not AP topics (Russian history, French history, 20th century communism, CS Lewis's apologetic literature, an entire yr on a Shakespeare thesis project).  

APs are a proven path.  We all have to decide our comfort level in bucking the system and how comfortable we are in having our students embark on unchartered  territory for college admissions.  Our students also have to determine how comfortable they are with facing uncertain outcomes.  

It all goes back to APs serve a purpose.  We should evaluate how their purpose suits our students' needs.  It very well may be that they are the path they should and need to take (applying to UK schools, for example).  However, if APs don't align with their interests and they are willing to accept admissions' outcomes without the AP brand on their transcript, then that is also a valid option.

  • Like 12
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm glad they're doing the drop and hope the trend continues. AP isn't really a college experience. AP classes are twice the length (2 semesters with twice the instructor face time than a 1 semester college class) of a real college course, and high stakes testing is unrealistic and not at all what most college courses rely on for grading. Depth, pace, and intensity have a lot to do with "college" vs "high school". 

I also think that AP classes, like US history which was a norm for honors level high school freshman in our C rated local Mississippi high school, are a joke. Yes, some high school freshman could handle a college US history course, but for it to be the standard makes me think it's in no way reflective of real college work. 

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

At the admission lecture of a prestigious engineering school, they said they screen applicants of the same school together so they can look at the student's rigor compared to what the school offers, so I think this isn't an unreasonable move. Now, add in the potential for DE and I think it can get messy. How much is enough rigor in actual college classes when you're applying for college? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A few years ago, one of the top private schools in my area (tuition $35K per year) announced that they were going to scale back on the number of APs offered.  After reading through this thread, I was curious to see which APs they still offer and was not surprised to see their list:

AP Calc AB and BC (plus math courses beyond these)

AP Chemistry, AP Bio, and AP Physics C

AP English (both tests)

AP Foreign languages

My kids have taken a number of AP classes, but none that are not on the list above.  I believe my kids would have been at a disadvantage when they began college if they hadn't studied the topics specified in the math and science AP curriculum.  Now taking the AP class would obviously not have been the only avenue to study these topics, but I do believe that AP scores do help to validate the transcript at schools that practice holistic admissions, which is really only a small percentage of the colleges out there. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

In terms of receiving credit, that is dependent on individual university policies.  My current college student is a sophomore with jr standing.  She entered with 33 credits but she never took a single AP course and only 1 DE course.  Her school gives credit for CLEP exams.  CLEPs do not require any specific course content to be covered.  Basically, if you study a subject, you stand a decent chance of passing the exam.   The courses she took CLEP exams for matched courses she had to have to meet state graduation requirements/college admission requirements.  (US history, gov't, cal, English, etc.)

Did your dd take the CLEP exams right at the end of each class, or did she take them once she knew what her college would accept?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, klmama said:

Did your dd take the CLEP exams right at the end of each class, or did she take them once she knew what her college would accept?

She took most of them right after the course was completed and did minimal prep (maybe a couple of days of reviewing CLEP questions). The exception was English bc most didn't award credit and there was no point bc she could take it any time.  Ultimately, USC did award credit, so she took the exam. 

CLEP exams are $80 plus whatever your testing site charges.  I think we paid $115 total per test.

FWIW, she was a NMF, so she applied to several NMF large scholarship schools.  Those almost all awarded some CLEP credit, some more than others.  Only 2 schools she applied to offered none.  She was still accepted to both and with scholarship $$, so the lack of APs didn't hurt her at all.  She demonstrated her academic strengths through other paths.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I never hear anything about CLEP exams. UCs don’t award credit for them. I checked some privates and none of them do either. Is that a regional thing? 

It is school dependent.  Many state flagships accept CLEP credit.  Here is VA Tech's CLEP bulletin:

https://registrar.vt.edu/content/dam/registrar_vt_edu/documents/Updates/ap_ib_clep/CLEP-Credits-2018.pdf 

USC's https://www.sc.edu/about/offices_and_divisions/registrar/transfer_credits/clep_credits.php

NCSU's https://admissions.ncsu.edu/apply/credit-opportunities/college-level-examination-program-clep/

FSU's http://admissions.fsu.edu/credit/CLEP/

While UCs don't give credit, CSUs do https://www2.calstate.edu/apply/transfer/pages/college-level-examination-program.aspx

More states are pushing for more CLEPs to be accepted.  I have seen a dramatic increase in the number of accepted CLEP exams over the past several yrs.  With our older kids CLEP was not something I really considered as a viable option.  But, I do now.  My current high schooler earned US history CLEP credit for both exams last yr as a 9th grader.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My husband is an active duty soldier and he is able to take CLEP and DSST tests for free.  He just got credit for an upper-level History of the Vietnam War, after watching the recent PBS special and taking notes, as well as having some background knowledge. 

I am very proud! 

I think it is a bit of a racket because he definitely didn't do as much as would be required in an upper-level history class, but he did learn a lot and it is definitely making it more accessible for him to complete his degree. 

I think a lot of things are a bit of a racket, though.  I am very cynical in some ways about the need for a college degree to be able to get jobs that he would be a very strong candidate for, but couldn't be looked at without a 4-year degree. 

 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am curious or maybe just have an impression..... that a lot of colleges have a limit for how much "proficiency credit" or "test credit" they will accept, and then how many transfer credits they will accept. 

I have had an impression that it's only possible to test out of 30 credits at a lot of places, and then that the tests are part of the category of transfer credits, which might have a 60 credit limit. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"But the debates about whether the history of one’s identity group is properly told in an AP class are only part of a larger issue. AP classes, and the College Board, have too large a role in defining the curriculum of American high schools due to their de facto monopoly on the college-credit (and achievement-recognition) system for high schoolers."

 

And later in the article, "What’s the alternative? It’s as simple as competition. If universities cease evaluating students by the count of AP classes taken, and high schools stop measuring themselves by the number of AP test-takers in their student body, then the door would be open for a variety of programs for promising high school students. These could include dual-enrollment classes managed through local colleges or through nationwide programs, and challenging programs that may or may not promise college credit but do offer a nationally recognized curriculum in a given subject. AP exams may have made sense in the pre-Internet age in which they originated, but surely in the year 2018, we can think much broader than a College Board monopoly."

 

Elizabeth Bauer said it so well!!

https://thefederalist.com/2018/06/19/problem-ap-classes-far-bigger-imperialism/

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Lecka said:

My husband is an active duty soldier and he is able to take CLEP and DSST tests for free.  He just got credit for an upper-level History of the Vietnam War, after watching the recent PBS special and taking notes, as well as having some background knowledge. 

I am very proud! 

I think it is a bit of a racket because he definitely didn't do as much as would be required in an upper-level history class, but he did learn a lot and it is definitely making it more accessible for him to complete his degree. 

I think a lot of things are a bit of a racket, though.  I am very cynical in some ways about the need for a college degree to be able to get jobs that he would be a very strong candidate for, but couldn't be looked at without a 4-year degree. 

 

No more of a racket than APs.  ?  The advantages to CLEP exams are that they can be taken any time, do not require learning specific formatting of answers, and are more general knowledge of material vs. AP specific focus.

If a university is going to give credit for an exam, it really doesn't make an iota difference if it was earned via CLEP or AP.  DE, otoh, may involved grades being incorporated into GPA. 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I have been thinking a bit more about this move for these particular schools. I recently completed a course for differentiating AP courses for gifted students, which sounds odd, unless you keep in mind that AP courses are designed for the "motivated" student versus the gifted student. I would suspect that these 8 schools have their share of gifted students and that AP was not meeting their needs. Also, as more schools are utilizing APs for a wide range of student abilities, the status of AP as a marketing tool decreases.

As I have read through all the negative comments on this thread, I've concluded that ds and I were incredibly fortunate in having both a positive experience and a positive outcome in using AP classes to create challenge.

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

3 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

No more of a racket than APs.  ?  The advantages to CLEP exams are that they can be taken any time, do not require learning specific formatting of answers, and are more general knowledge of material vs. AP specific focus.

If a university is going to give credit for an exam, it really doesn't make an iota difference if it was earned via CLEP or AP.  DE, otoh, may involved grades being incorporated into GPA. 

Except that the College Board controls the CLEP exams (at least registration!!). 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, madteaparty said:

Ugh, I hate these headlines; this was also posted in my public school district parent Facebook group. These schools can afford to drop APs ... because they offer many many classes that are so far past AP.


Exactly. And because those particular schools have been so successful with the courses they offer, they've established a very strong reputation with the more academically "elite" colleges. I would bet that their curriculum is at a high enough level that their students will still take the AP exams and will still do just as well on those exams.

There's nothing magical about an AP-approved course, as evidenced by the vast numbers of students who receive a 1 or 2 when they take the exam and, on the flip side, by the students who self-study for AP exams, without an officially AP-approved course, and receive a 4 or 5 on the exam.  I'm all for solid, true college-prep level English, foreign language, history, and other courses, regardless of whether they have an "AP-approved" label or not. In fact, I'd prefer a non-AP courses in those subjects because they aren't limited to the College Board's restrictions on what content is included.

People see what they want in these headlines. Some will see schools with such strong academic programs and diligent students that they can drop AP-approved courses and still do well on the AP exams. Others will jump on it as a rationale for why their school/students don't need AP courses, why their school & classes are just as good as any AP course, ignoring (or covering) the fact that their courses are not nearly at the same level as the courses at some of these elite, private schools.

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, FriedClams said:

"But the debates about whether the history of one’s identity group is properly told in an AP class are only part of a larger issue. AP classes, and the College Board, have too large a role in defining the curriculum of American high schools due to their de facto monopoly on the college-credit (and achievement-recognition) system for high schoolers."

Yes. Courses taught and content expected to be covered.  I also agree that there are a world of course opportunities outside of AP titles.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Lecka said:

I am curious or maybe just have an impression..... that a lot of colleges have a limit for how much "proficiency credit" or "test credit" they will accept, and then how many transfer credits they will accept. 

I have had an impression that it's only possible to test out of 30 credits at a lot of places, and then that the tests are part of the category of transfer credits, which might have a 60 credit limit. 

Most of them do and the application of credits varies widely.

My son's school's limit is 30, but they gave him 31 as to not break up a block of credit.

My guess is that universities' AP policies are reflective of their experiences with them.

For example, several of the schools ds toured (already accepted) took AP English Language as an elective credit, but students could not waive a writing requirement or more often, freshman seminar.  Many students arrive at college unable to write a coherent academic paper. Instructors in lower level classes were repeatedly having to teach the process. It was a better use of faculty  time to create the freshman seminar and work on all of the skills at one time students would need to be successful in that college.

At my son's school, the general university requirement is 6 credits of writing. They will allow AP English Lang to fill three of those credits, but the remaining three must be taken on campus. Students who received AP Lang credits are all grouped together for the second writing class. The first thing ds's professor told them was to forget everything they ever learned in AP Lang.! He got a B- in the class. Was this indicative of poor AP instruction?  Now, oddly enough, ds is in a field that is writing and research heavy and with dozens of essays and research papers under his belt now, he's never earned lower than an A- on any of them.

We also encountered a couple of schools that did not allow for early graduation even if they gave AP credits. I would be curious to know if this is an academic decision made in the students' best interests or a financial reason made in the university's best interest.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, swimmermom3 said:

the status of AP as a marketing tool decreases.


Don't you think, though, that the status conferred by earning a 4 or 5 on an AP exam will continue to hold weight?  I think the status of AP-approved courses has decreased because so many schools tout the fact that x% of their students take AP courses, rather than that y% of their students receive 4's or 5's on the actual exams.

24 minutes ago, swimmermom3 said:

As I have read through all the negative comments on this thread, I've concluded that ds and I were incredibly fortunate in having both a positive experience and a positive outcome in using AP classes to create challenge.


We were fortunate, also, in the AP classes we used. I do wish there were solid, college-prep level English courses out there for home schoolers that were not necessarily "AP approved" so that they could have focused on American Lit or Brit Lit or....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, FriedClams said:

 

Except that the College Board controls the CLEP exams (at least registration!!). 

 

This is part of a much larger issue. I was irked to no end to find out that Pearson (massive education publisher) controls teacher certification exams.

Standardized testing drives education in this country and content is in the hands of an increasingly smaller number of providers.

I'd be happy to do away with AP if there was still a valid, affordable, and effective option for students to earn college credits.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

When AP courses are done well, I think they are great experiences for high school students. My problem with AP courses is that they are rarely done well. Kids are taking them for the GPA weight and no schools want to publish their % of 4 and 5 scores because it's ugly for many, many schools in "great" districts. In overhearing teens conversing about AP courses, they know that colleges are only giving credit for 4s and 5s and they also know that they are not prepared to get those scores without much more work on their part. And if they are taking multiple APs (because "everyone" does), they are much more focused on the grade in their class than on scores that don't really matter. 

AP courses have become an admissions racket because there is no penalty for the school or student for very low scores on the test. If a school is offering a ton of AP courses, graduating the majority of students with "honors" GPA, and is getting 75% or more AP scores with 1s or 2s, they should not be offering those classes. Have students take fewer AP courses, offer fewer, and put the best teachers out there to teach them. 

Or, for me, get rid of them completely. Go back to honors courses where teachers get to really teach and have freedom with their curriculum.

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, yvonne said:


Exactly. And because those particular schools have been so successful with the courses they offer, they've established a very strong reputation with the more academically "elite" colleges. I would bet that their curriculum is at a high enough level that their students will still take the AP exams and will still do just as well on those exams.

There's nothing magical about an AP-approved course, as evidenced by the vast numbers of students who receive a 1 or 2 when they take the exam and, on the flip side, by the students who self-study for AP exams, without an officially AP-approved course, and receive a 4 or 5 on the exam.  I'm all for solid, true college-prep level English, foreign language, history, and other courses, regardless of whether they have an "AP-approved" label or not. In fact, I'd prefer a non-AP courses in those subjects because they aren't limited to the College Board's restrictions on what content is included.

Yes, when there are 5 post AP classes minimum, and 90% of the class gets into elite schools, I think they’re okay.

but my local public is not eliminating the French AP to offer French lit before 1800...

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, swimmermom3 said:

I have been thinking a bit more about this move for these particular schools. I recently completed a course for differentiating AP courses for gifted students, which sounds odd, unless you keep in mind that AP courses are designed for the "motivated" student versus the gifted student. I would suspect that these 8 schools have their share of gifted students and that AP was not meeting their needs. Also, as more schools are utilizing APs for a wide range of student abilities, the status of AP as a marketing tool decreases.

As I have read through all the negative comments on this thread, I've concluded that ds and I were incredibly fortunate in having both a positive experience and a positive outcome in using AP classes to create challenge.

 

My kids have also benefitted from taking AP classes, some of which were online with outside providers and some of which were home-brewed.  I do think that three main science APs and the calculus exams are especially worthwhile as these courses seems to be easier to standardized.  Both of my boys used their AP BC Calc credit to skip Calc I and Calc II at their respective colleges.  While my oldest son's school wouldn't accept any of his science AP credits, the students at his school had taken the AP classes or equivalent at their respective high schools and needed that background info in order to be successful in the introductory classes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think anyone is arguing for not studying subjects at a high level. I think the issue is whether it is the subject matter or the AP course that is important. For example, back when AoPS cal  was not CB approved, was it more valuable to take an AP approved course or master calculus at a high level? 

I know that it is even possible to teach courses at home at a high level completely disconnected from APs and have kids thrive at college.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

My personal view is that I am glad that they articulated the reasons why they are dropping them.  They are the same reasons we don't actively pursue them in our homeschool. 

APs serve a purpose. That purpose should be evaluated and educators should individually determine whether or not their purpose matches their students' needs vs. adopting a universal policy that all students are best served by the narrow AP list of courses and testing focus.  There are innumerable courses students can take and equal innumerable approaches to studying content. 

I think Sebastian's post, touches on one of the key issues.  Not the only one, but an important one.

FWIW, I personally disagree with the sentiment that APs are necessary for validating our homeschool's strength.  I don't homeschool to replicate ps and I am not going simply going to throw my homeschool philosophy to the wind and submit that APs are the only way demonstrate high levels of achievement.  Neither do I believe that DE is the only other path. 

I think the assumption that those who utilize AP courses are throwing their homeschool philosophies to the wind is unjust and seems to indicate that a particular approach is the right approach and all others are lesser in quality. You and I have had this discussion before. Not all of us have the experience and creativity that you have that is necessary to create a top-level demanding class. I need a framework to begin with and then, I can usually run with it from there. I am more creative and more willing to take risks now than I was a couple of years ago. My lesson plans for my teaching program are significantly better now, not because of what I am being taught in school, but because of the experience I've had.

In terms of receiving credit, that is dependent on individual university policies.  My current college student is a sophomore with jr standing.  She entered with 33 credits but she never took a single AP course and only 1 DE course.  Her school gives credit for CLEP exams.  CLEPs do not require any specific course content to be covered.  Basically, if you study a subject, you stand a decent chance of passing the exam.   The courses she took CLEP exams for matched courses she had to have to meet state graduation requirements/college admission requirements.  (US history, gov't, cal, English, etc.)

But, even if the school hadn't given CLEP credit, she would not have altered the courses she took for high school just for credits.  She spent her high school yrs studying exactly the subject matter she wanted to study.  Her literature courses were uniquely designed around her interests.  Her history courses were equally non-traditional, definitely not AP topics (Russian history, French history, 20th century communism, CS Lewis's apologetic literature, an entire yr on a Shakespeare thesis project).  

If my son's school had not given AP credit, we would not have altered the courses he took for high school just for credit. My son spent his high school years studying exactly the subject matters he wanted to study. He wants to be in the foreign service and is an international service major focusing on foreign policy and national security. So far, he has found AP Euro, AP US History, AP US Government, AP Comparative Government, AP Macro and Micro, and AP Stats to be essential to the upper level work he is doing. He still insists that AP English Lang was the best time and money spent in high school as what he learned has been critical for success in his research methodology classes. I will give you that ds took AP English Lit not because of a high level of interest in literature. He took it because he really wanted to have a second year of writing instruction with Maya Inspektor at PA Homeschoolers. Okay, he also took AP Biology because we knew from his older sibilings' experiences, that the regular bio class at the high school would be too easy and I wasn't about to teach Honors Biology at home after nearly wiping myself out with Honors Chemistry. He loved the material and took the class from one of the district's legendary AP Bio teachers. He acquired a raft of study skills that he's found useful in college.

Just because you follow an AP framework, it doesn't mean that all creative and effective teaching get left at the door. Like all high school classes, the success of APs depend on the teacher's skill and what their individual students bring to the table.

APs are a proven path.  We all have to decide our comfort level in bucking the system and how comfortable we are in having our students embark on unchartered  territory for college admissions.  Our students also have to determine how comfortable they are with facing uncertain outcomes.  For some of us, homechooling high school in the face of heavy opposition from family members and others IRL is a whole lot of bucking.

It all goes back to APs serve a purpose.  We should evaluate how their purpose suits our students' needs.  It very well may be that they are the path they should and need to take (applying to UK schools, for example).  However, if APs don't align with their interests and they are willing to accept admissions' outcomes without the AP brand on their transcript, then that is also a valid option.

Agreed.

 

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lisa, I wasn't suggesting that if you pursue AP courses that you are throwing your homeschooling philosophy to the wind. I was specifically saying I would be. I don't think not pursuing APs is "better" than pursuing APs. It really is a matter of familial/student goals. 

But, I do strongly disagree with the idea that everything about homeschooling needs outside validation and that APs are necessary for proof of academic level. For some scenarios that may be valid, but too often the position is presented as all or nothing.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, HeighHo said:

 

The gaming of admissions is the issue....as the article says 'The real question for college is not whether the applicants have taken AP courses, but whether they have availed themselves of their high schools most demanding classes'. The public high school staff knows that, and in some cases deliberately chooses not to offer courses that would be worthwhile to the academically top 25% of students, putting them in study hall or Regent's Level instead as well as only offering the minimum acceleration required by state law.  Offering actual demanding classes, or not giving extra credit and second attempts at tests would mean that the wrong people earn the high class rank. 

My district always has students going into Ivy Us without the academic background, because they 'availed themselves of the...most demanding classes'.  No science higher than Regents, no honors or higher math.  Wealthy students take on-line classes, always at a higher level and depth than AP...AP is just too easy - APUSH for example is the same level as 7/8 honors USH here. Nothing new but teaching the essay format and the kid has to wait until 11th grade here to take the course.    And who needs AP Calc when you progressed with the other children of educated parents and are accelerated in deeper classes as 'enrichment'?  The public schools here near the STEM businesses offer DiffEq/Research as 12th grade for their students who chose not to spend years reviewing and put the effort in to honors coursework. 

This really makes me heartsick.

At our local high school, the choice for students isn't what I had thirty years ago: take the academically solid regular class or being ready to be challenged on a crazy-high level in the AP (only English at that time) or Honors classes. When my older kids went to the local high school, the choices past 10th grade were: AP or remedial. This really puts the average student in a tough bind and while I am not positive, I do think this is a result of marketing the status of AP.

While I will defend our use of AP classes because it made living a dream possible, I am all too aware of their shortcomings.

The larger picture of the high stakes standardized tests and the control they have on the education of this country is truly terrifying.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, swimmermom3 said:

This really makes me heartsick.

At our local high school, the choice for students isn't what I had thirty years ago: take the academically solid regular class or being ready to be challenged on a crazy-high level in the AP (only English at that time) or Honors classes. When my older kids went to the local high school, the choices past 10th grade were: AP or remedial. This really puts the average student in a tough bind and while I am not positive, I do think this is a result of marketing the status of AP.

While I will defend our use of AP classes because it made living a dream possible, I am all too aware of their shortcomings.

The larger picture of the high stakes standardized tests and the control they have on the education of this country is truly terrifying.

 

Bolding is mine. This is exactly the situation my dd2 is in. Regular classes are geared for remedial/struggling/poor students. There is no honors track other than AP. So my dyslexic/slow processor girl with a 504 and A's in Honors in 9th and 10th grade was strongly encouraged to do regular classes. Basically to step off the college prep track, because AP might be "too hard."

She declined that offer and was well and truly angry, insisted that she be placed according to her performance and is now looking at a truly horrific academic year next year-with little flexibility- and teachers who gallop through the material because they have to be done by the test date.  And then the class sits around twiddling their thumbs for the last three weeks of the year.

Really not looking forward to my unpaid tutoring gig with her next year.

 

  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

Lisa, I wasn't suggesting that if you pursue AP courses that you are throwing your homeschooling philosophy to the wind. I was specifically saying I would be. I don't think not pursuing APs is "better" than pursuing APs. It really is a matter of familial/student goals. 

But, I do strongly disagree with the idea that everything about homeschooling needs outside validation and that APs are necessary for proof of academic level. For some scenarios that may be valid, but too often the position is presented as all or nothing.

Got it, on the first part.

Theoretically, I know that everything about homeschooling doesn't need outside validation, but I think realistically for many of us, it is one part of the "validation" process.

As a homeschooler, ds could have done only classes at home and not taken any standardized tests, and perhaps gotten into a good college or any college at all, but it's a huge risk, especially if you don't have a significant talent that is demonstrated in some other way.

Let's say we have a homeschooled student who has had courses at home that meet the standard level of "college-prep." The student has no standardized test scores. How do you demonstrate to a college that the student has the academic foundation and the skills necessary to do well at their school? I can write an appealing course description, but does anybody read it? The student could write a compelling essay, but those can be bought online. A video interview can be used in place of test scores, but it is similar to a high stakes exam as it's a one shot deal and besides, what if your student is shy?

I do recognize that many AP courses as they are taught now, don't teach the knowledge and the skills that they should for something represented as a college-level introductory course. I've experienced the frustration of trying to teach as I like to teach and still stick within the AP parameters. I'll acknowledge that the AP Micro test can be passed with a month or two of intensive study.

If not AP, then what? Is there anyway to salvage the concept?

I am close to finishing my teaching certification and am having serious second thoughts. Some of the most gifted high school teachers I know, are running for the doors and they are younger than I am. It's depressing.

This country is always looking for the magic pill for education instead of simply settling down and doing the painstaking work.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, swimmermom3 said:

I am close to finishing my teaching certification and am having serious second thoughts. 

 

The local “gifted” k-12 private school that did away with AP courses has a track record of sending their students to elite colleges.

For brick and mortar high schoolers, they are caught in the quandary of opting for the most rigorous course offered. The school profile for my district’s public high school list all the AP courses they offer. So to not take AP English Language in 11th or 12th grade for example would be seen as not taking the most rigorous course available. 

Like a kid who was taking an AP Biology exam and was in Basis Independent for 8th grade, Stanford OHS for 9th grade commented, Basis had every student taking AP World History in 8th grade and they strongly encourage a high number of AP exams so he switch to full time Stanford OHS for 9th grade because he wasn’t keen on so many AP exams. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Calming Tea said:

Many, many colleges aren't giving credit for AP's anyway...

I think this is a great step forward.

 

This is a step forward if a vast majority of students with 4s and 5s on the exams are underprepared for the next level of classes after the introductory classes.

However, there is a slight possibility that it is economically advantageous to colleges to not give credit for AP classes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So few top tier schools are giving AP credit, I'm starting to see the point less and less. I'm more inclined to DE with our local CC or UC because of the articulation agreements in place. For the price, I'm just not sure AP is worth it when there are other options.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, swimmermom3 said:

 

The larger picture of the high stakes standardized tests and the control they have on the education of this country is truly terrifying.

I don’t even know what “high stakes testing” means. High stakes for whom? If a student doesn’t get a 4 or 5 on the AP, the school still gets to claim participation credit and the student still took the class, no? I mean what are the stakes? These kids have to take year long high school classes, whether they take an AP one or not is not exactly a huge risk.

Now, taking a test in 4th grade that might determine whether you go to gymnasium and therefore university, or not, might be called high stakes. Or tests to get a spot at university given once a year. My issue is that I don’t know what we are talking about. What is “college level” and what is “high school” level? The scary thing is that we don’t know, and maybe, at least for most schools, the AP tests, and the SATs are maybe where these worlds, which sort of spin in different galaxies,might briefly meet..

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, Sebastian (a lady) said:

<snip>

On the other hand, colleges certainly know what they are getting with a student applying out of Sidwell Friends or St. Albans.  They don't know the level of academic rigor at my homeschool.

 

The night we attended the School Fair in Bogota (May 3, 2018) 4 schools (Duke, Harvard, Georgetown and Penn)   had sent Admission Reps to that presentation.

They explained many things that they look at, when considering an applicant.  Rigor of the school was one thing. Rigor of the courses was another thing.

I got the impression that they look at SAT and ACT scores, but know that a student may have had a bad day when they took the examination and those tests are not their highest priority.

I don't think they had much interest in AP courses or would allow college/university credit for them.

My guess is that DE courses taken in a College or University would be considered much more favorably than AP courses taken in a High School. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, madteaparty said:

I don’t even know what “high stakes testing” means. High stakes for whom? If a student doesn’t get a 4 or 5 on the AP, the school still gets to claim participation credit and the student still took the class, no? I mean what are the stakes? These kids have to take year long high school classes, whether they take an AP one or not is not exactly a huge risk.

Now, taking a test in 4th grade that might determine whether you go to gymnasium and therefore university, or not, might be called high stakes. Or tests to get a spot at university given once a year. My issue is that I don’t know what we are talking about. What is “college level” and what is “high school” level? The scary thing is that we don’t know, and maybe, at least for most schools, the AP tests, and the SATs are maybe where these worlds, which sort of spin in different galaxies,might briefly meet..

My bad, I didn't use high stakes correctly here. High stakes testing has a significant impact on the future of the test taker. Some states have exams that the students must take in order to graduate. Certain standardized tests in the past have dictated how a teacher will be compensated or if they even get to keep their job.

Can you please elaborate more on what you mean in the last statement?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, swimmermom3 said:

My bad, I didn't use high stakes correctly here. High stakes testing has a significant impact on the future of the test taker. Some states have exams that the students must take in order to graduate. Certain standardized tests in the past have dictated how a teacher will be compensated or if they even get to keep their job.

Can you please elaborate more on what you mean in the last statement?

I mean that there’s no national standards. And that APs and SAT/ACT are currently the only way for such comparison. And that if 8 schools where probably AP level subject knowledge is assumed when you start 9th grade and therefore you might as well eliminate the APs because every class that that kid takes in high school will be post-AP should have no bearing for schools where AP is by far the highest level offered and eliminating it won’t in fact liberate a teacher to come up with a whimsical and stimulating substitute. 

ETA that I’m sounding like an AP apologist. But really I’m a standards advocate, because I find myself shocked all the time. How kids in already “gifted” public programs have to basically study for 7 weeks all summer, plus all Saturday for the school year throughout middle school to be considered at the same level and earn a spot at an elite private high school...that’s the knowledge differential I guess. And eliminating standards just obscures the inequality of opportunity further.

 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, swimmermom3 said:

Theoretically, I know that everything about homeschooling doesn't need outside validation, but I think realistically for many of us, it is one part of the "validation" process.

As a homeschooler, ds could have done only classes at home and not taken any standardized tests, and perhaps gotten into a good college or any college at all, but it's a huge risk, especially if you don't have a significant talent that is demonstrated in some other way.

Let's say we have a homeschooled student who has had courses at home that meet the standard level of "college-prep." The student has no standardized test scores. How do you demonstrate to a college that the student has the academic foundation and the skills necessary to do well at their school?

I think there is a huge difference between no standardized test scores and no APs.  I don't know of any school where homeschoolers can apply test optional, so SAT/ACT scores are pretty much a given.  I think that those scores carry FAR more weight than most of us recognize.  

FWIW, I don't think it is a **huge risk** to apply without APs.  Is it **a** risk?  Maybe.  It depends on the school.  For the vast majority of schools, I don't think it is a risk as long as the student has SAT/ACT scores in the mid-50% range for the school and the student has a transcript demonstrating all their required courses for admission have been taken.  Having students take 2 subject tests can cover other bases as well.  (Some schools even give college credit for certain subject test scores.)

My kids have taken a grand total of 3 APs. Youngest ds took 2 and oldest dd took 1.  My kids in general have taken a mixture of either none, 1 or 2, or quite a few DE courses, depending on the individual and what they wanted to do.  Most of their courses have not been outsourced.  My older kids had their ACT scores and 1 or 2 outside classes.  My current college kid had 1 subject outsourced, 2 subject test scores, 1 SAT score (she only took it once), no AP courses at all, and 1 DE course spring of sr  yr.  Almost all of her courses were done at home.  She was accepted everywhere, including Rochester. (and no, I do not believe Russian which was taught by an outside teacher somehow erased all doubts about all coursework completed at home.  I think her SAT and subject test scores did.)

ETA: For us, it is worth doing what we want to do at home and accepting the consequences of those choices.  

Edited by 8FillTheHeart
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, madteaparty said:

I mean that there’s no national standards. And that APs and SAT/ACT are currently the only way for such comparison. And that if 8 schools where probably AP level subject knowledge is assumed when you start 9th grade and therefore you might as well eliminate the APs because every class that that kid takes in high school will be post-AP should have no bearing for schools where AP is by far the highest level offered and eliminating it won’t in fact liberate a teacher to come up with a whimsical and stimulating substitute. 

Thank you! This makes total sense.

In researching for this thread, I discovered that AP classes were initially utilized to help with placement for Advanced Standing. You didn't get credit for the class (really, any smart university isn't going to give up income), but you did and still do, get to opt out of lower level course work.

So far, I have found that Duke, Princeton, Georgetown, Harvard,  and Penn State all accept AP credits and typically it means you place into a higher level class, not that you get to graduate early.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...