Jean in Newcastle Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 I have known all along that dd is dyslexic. I am a special ed. teacher and felt like we were doing fine with how I was teaching her. She reads at grade level (10th grade). She also writes and spells at grade level. But just in the last two weeks she's started to open up to me about how hard reading still is for her. She knows phonics well and has aced any phonics test I've thrown at her but she dislikes reading aloud because if there is a new word she still has trouble decoding it. And she admitted that she skips anything in her books that is hard and just sort of "figures it out". We have never had formal evaluations because she didn't seem to need accommodations for college (which is the main reason I would do it) but now I'm starting to wonder if that is truly the case. Her brother is highly gifted and 2E (with ASD, dyslexia and ADD) and I'm fairly sure that she's done so well because she's gifted and 2E as well. She doesn't think so though because she's had to work hard to look "normal" in her work while her brother wows everyone with his off-the-chart smarts. (This is not from us in the home but from friends and neighbors.) I'm not totally sure what I'm asking. 1. Are evaluations worth the money? The money would be a significant hardship for us financially. (They were only somewhat worth it for us with ds. Yes, they confirmed what I knew and they did get us accommodations starting out but he didn't need the accommodations after the first quarter in college. I suppose the biggest benefit was that ds has found somewhat of an identity in being an Aspie in the sense that it gives it a name other than being a "weirdo" who doesn't fit in.) 2. Are there materials for teens? I did use a lot of remedial curricula in the middle school years that helped her specifically with reading comprehension and writing. 3. Anything I need to know that I don't even know that I need to know (or might have forgotten to ask or mention)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 This might be a situation to start with the ps. They can create enough papertrail for college accommodations. You're not asking for perfect evals, and the pricepoint is right (free). What accommodations do you want in in college, btw? Extended testig you can get with an ADHD diagnosis, which they would probably get to even if they won't sign off on SLD Reading at this point. That would get her extended time. At the uni dd goes to, ANYBODY gets access to study groups, etc. with no paper trail. The paper trail gets her extra stuff like the academic coach, testing service with extended time, etc.. That can also be gotten with the ADHD label, not even the SLD. You want note takers? Something else? So much has changed with tech. Do 504 plans carry over with ADA? Something to check into. I don't know. The school told us they would have 504'ed her. It didn't have to result in an IEP to be enough paper trail to kick things in gear at the uni. You can use your accommodations for online and on campus DE courses, so that's another good reason to get them done, to have that paperwing in the wings. The other reason, and you probably know this, is you eval to find out what you don't know, not what you already do. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbutton Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 I think starting with the public school is a good idea--if she can tell them what she's told you, they might give her a 504, and if enough stuff comes up with testing, they might have more information you don't realize is relevant. I think she'll be grateful to have those accommodations in college. Gifted kids can and do feel "less than" others when it takes so much effort to do pretty normal work, and I think your son's experience is the exception while your DD's is more the rule. I would consider seeing if you have any local SLPs who specialize in older kids with dyslexia. They might be willing to help you locate materials and even run things by them even if she doesn't need outright tutoring. I know there is an option local to us that seems to resonate with kids with dyslexia--the SLP homeschooled her kids and will tutor with lessons sent home, and I think she even does some consulting for parents. I don't know if she does internet consults, but if you want me to check, just PM me. We have not used her--I think she'd actually be an ill fit with my kiddo that is in current need of language instruction; however, she is quite beloved by a family we know that uses her services. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted June 15, 2018 Author Share Posted June 15, 2018 She already had an IEP when she was younger for speech. Would they add onto that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 The IEP is expired. They would update the evals. They may or may not do the IQ again. They would definitely do achievement, CTOPP, etc. I would push for language testing, especially if she has any issues with writing, vocabulary, or comprehension. They could run the TNL, the CELF Metalinguistics, etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
City Mouse Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 45 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said: She already had an IEP when she was younger for speech. Would they add onto that? Probably not. If she was dismissed from speech, then you have to start all over from the beginning. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted June 16, 2018 Author Share Posted June 16, 2018 So... moving on from the evaluation issue... any materials out there for duslexic teens? Everything I see online is much too young. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 I would get that CTOPP done before you begin intervention. Sometimes even a reading tutor can do the CTOPP. Have you looked at Rewards Intermediate? Also make sure you work on working memory and RAN/RAS. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 Removing state specific parts Sopris-West Language (and Rewards) are suitable through high school. Academic Therapy Press sold something that was suitable up to around age 21, and I think had “21” right in the title. My son is using audio books a lot—just as available from Hoopla, Libby, and Audible, currently. If he gets an updated dx he could get Learning Ally or NLS. Bookshare is also available with a dx — and free which could help offset testing cost. But my ds does not do well with computer synthesized voice text readers. My ds’s personality doesn’t seem to mesh with getting extra time on tests which is the only other accommodation that seems like it is easy to get and could help. If your dd would be helped a lot by more time (which you can possibly get a sense of with some psat practice testing) that could be a reason to seek out evaluation. And maybe better scores leading to possible scholarships would help make up for the extra expense. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted June 16, 2018 Author Share Posted June 16, 2018 Pen- I am in Washington Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 Jean, even though your ds didn't need services after the first semester of college, your dd might use them much longer. She'll probably want the extended time on tests, limited distraction testing service, etc. Have you looked on the Learning Ally referral lists? Here's the link for WA with 5 pages of people listed. http://www.learningally.org/Parents/Dyslexia-Resources/All-Resources/specialistListing?sid=WA 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 10 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said: Pen- I am in Washington Then just the Sopris West etc programs would apply. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 I wonder if a digital dictionary that could speak and define unknown words would help her? What sort of words is she struggling with? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 Also I think many adults don’t like to read aloud from materials with unknown words. But maybe some deliberate read aloud practice would be helpful for her at this stage. And/Or recorded book alongside paper and ink version or Whisper sync if she can use that. Some problems could come from having done less specific reading practice recently and a habit of letting unknown words go by until the number of unknowns has increased to where reading becomes difficult. At some point this past year my ds had gotten rusty on reading and we went back to an easier level of book —and some reading aloud to regain fluency. We probably should do that again this summer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 Back to evaluation for a moment, Washington has some Scottish Rite centers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 Even though it's less common, difficulty with reading aloud is pretty embarrassing for adults. If someone goes to a Bible study, for instance, it comes up. Anywhere where they can't prep it's an issue. Nowadays I seem my dh using Siri to check spelling. I think Pen's point about looking for other clinics/eval options was really strong. To me the question would be whether there's more on the table. With a sibling on the spectrum, more will be on the table and more should be screened for, but it doesn't have to be a high-priced neuropsych doing that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted June 16, 2018 Author Share Posted June 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Pen said: I wonder if a digital dictionary that could speak and define unknown words would help her? What sort of words is she struggling with? Multi- syllabic words. She told me after yearly academic testing yesterday that she knew all the vocabulary on the test but it took her a bit longer to first decode the words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted June 16, 2018 Author Share Posted June 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Pen said: Also I think many adults don’t like to read aloud from materials with unknown words. But maybe some deliberate read aloud practice would be helpful for her at this stage. And/Or recorded book alongside paper and ink version or Whisper sync if she can use that. Some problems could come from having done less specific reading practice recently and a habit of letting unknown words go by until the number of unknowns has increased to where reading becomes difficult. At some point this past year my ds had gotten rusty on reading and we went back to an easier level of book —and some reading aloud to regain fluency. We probably should do that again this summer. 55 minutes ago, PeterPan said: Even though it's less common, difficulty with reading aloud is pretty embarrassing for adults. If someone goes to a Bible study, for instance, it comes up. Anywhere where they can't prep it's an issue. Nowadays I seem my dh using Siri to check spelling. I think Pen's point about looking for other clinics/eval options was really strong. To me the question would be whether there's more on the table. With a sibling on the spectrum, more will be on the table and more should be screened for, but it doesn't have to be a high-priced neuropsych doing that. She reads aloud weekly - at church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted June 16, 2018 Author Share Posted June 16, 2018 Thank you for the advice. I will sit down with it all and do more research etc. next week when both of my kids are off on camping trips. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 22 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said: She reads aloud weekly - at church. Is that a difficulty or has she heard Bible reading enough that it is familiar? She could struggle with academic reading but not Bible or struggle with Bible but not 10th grade level recreational fiction. The programs I mentioned tend to be good for multi syllable words. Possibly ElizabethB would have free resources on her website for that too. Anxiety could also play a role in reading aloud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 38 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said: Multi- syllabic words. She told me after yearly academic testing yesterday that she knew all the vocabulary on the test but it took her a bit longer to first decode the words. Could be a decoding issue. Could also be lack of familiarity and fluency with such words issue. If you could find a practice test with similar vocabulary words you might be able to use your Sped skills to get more of a grasp of the problem. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted June 16, 2018 Author Share Posted June 16, 2018 7 minutes ago, Pen said: Is that a difficulty or has she heard Bible reading enough that it is familiar? She could struggle with academic reading but not Bible or struggle with Bible but not 10th grade level recreational fiction. The programs I mentioned tend to be good for multi syllable words. Possibly ElizabethB would have free resources on her website for that too. Anxiety could also play a role in reading aloud. The reason I even became aware that reading aloud is such a problem for her still is because she suddenly started crying a couple of Sundays ago. She can do it so casual listeners don't know that is such a struggle for her. That actually opened up this dialogue that we are now having on the subject. I am actually her teacher in the teen class at church. I carefully choose the passages that she reads so that they are easier (and have always done so). I don't want to totally stop having her read for two reasons: I don't want to single her out as the only one not reading and I still want her to get some practice. She tells me that reading in her head is easier but admitted that that might be because she often glosses over things as long as she can get the gist of what is being said. She reads quite a bit for pleasure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 Is np testing worth it? Well, DS scored well enough on the ACT to earn scholarship money at every university he applied for. ACT and the College Board require the np testing and report to gain the extended test taking time. Doing the math by subtracting cost of np testing minus scholarship gained, DS earned himself $22,000. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 2 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said: The reason I even became aware that reading aloud is such a problem for her still is because she suddenly started crying a couple of Sundays ago. She can do it so casual listeners don't know that is such a struggle for her. That actually opened up this dialogue that we are now having on the subject. I am actually her teacher in the teen class at church. I carefully choose the passages that she reads so that they are easier (and have always done so). I don't want to totally stop having her read for two reasons: I don't want to single her out as the only one not reading and I still want her to get some practice. She tells me that reading in her head is easier but admitted that that might be because she often glosses over things as long as she can get the gist of what is being said. She reads quite a bit for pleasure. Could you go over the Bible reading with her in the week prior —maybe more than once till she has it with fluency and automaticity—before she has to do it in front of others? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 My online phonics lessons and my syllables program are geared towards teaching older children and adults multi-syllable words. The Webster's Speller multi-syllable words are especially helpful for my students who are truly dyslexic. (Although most of my students just have problems from sight words taught in schools, I have had a few public school students and several homeschool students who were truly dyslexic.) I also like Sophris West rewards, Megawords, and Marcia Henry's words for multi-syllable word work for older students. You can find Sophris West rewards teacher manual cheaper used, the student book is fairly cheap. Here is where Words is cheapest from, Don Potter and I have ordered several different products from them over the years. It is also available from Amazon, but not as cheap there. https://www.proedinc.com/Products/12626/words-integrated-decoding-and-spelling-instruction-based-on-word-origin-and-word-structuresecond-edition.aspx In the interim, you can give her the MWIA 3 and the nonsense word test and the 40L grade level test and send her missed words and scores to me and I can give you an idea of what might be going on, they are linked at the bottom of my syllables page. I would also give her a silent reading speed test with both the adult and child selections and see if there is a difference in speed between the two. My students that have vision problems that can be fixed with vision therapy usually read a group of nonsense words at 36 point font, double spaced at least 10% slower than a group of nonsense words at 12 point font single spaced, other students read them at the same speed. Try this both alone and after reading a book with small print for 20 to 30 minutes to see if the problem occurs with fatigue from reading. The extra version of nonsense words, link #6 from the teacher folder section of my syllables page, is a good source of groups of nonsense words of similar difficulty, also found in the syllables link below. https://thephonicspage.org/On Reading/syllablesspellsu.html 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storygirl Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 I just wanted to add that my daughter's OG tutor (the same teacher who is DS's intervention teacher at school) is dyslexic. She is remediated enough that she teaches dyslexic children how to read. And yet, she told me that she used her accommodations A LOT in college. The amount of reading that was required was just too much and too tiring for her. Specifically, she told me that she used audio versions of texts and had note takers for class. So I think that accommodations can be extremely useful in college, even for dyslexic people who seem to be fully remediated. DD is only 7th grade next year, so I'm not familiar with high school materials, but I'm hoping the suggestions from others will turn up some options for you. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 https://www.amazon.com/Power-Tools-Literacy-Accelerated-Syllables/dp/0979092507 I mentioned this above— it might be enough and not terribly expensive as dyslexia materials go. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 3 hours ago, ElizabethB said: My students that have vision problems that can be fixed with vision therapy usually read a group of nonsense words at 36 point font, double spaced at least 10% slower than a group of nonsense words at 12 point font single spaced, other students read them at the same speed. Try this both alone and after reading a book with small print for 20 to 30 minutes to see if the problem occurs with fatigue from reading. The extra version of nonsense words, link #6 from the teacher folder section of my Large type and double spacing makes it harder to read? Interesting. I’d like to try that on myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 8 hours ago, Pen said: Large type and double spacing makes it harder to read? Interesting. I’d like to try that on myself. I meant the opposite!! Large type and double spacing makes usually around 30% to 40% faster reading for my students who have needed vision therapy vs. those who have not. I read both at the same speed, I tested it on myself. (Also a few parents tested it and siblings, only the one needing vision therapy had a significant speed difference. I've not tried it on enough students to figure out the total correlation but it is an easy test that can give you an idea whether or not you might need some vision therapy.) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 3 hours ago, ElizabethB said: I meant the opposite!! Large type and double spacing makes usually around 30% to 40% faster reading for my students who have needed vision therapy vs. those who have not. I read both at the same speed, I tested it on myself. (Also a few parents tested it and siblings, only the one needing vision therapy had a significant speed difference. I've not tried it on enough students to figure out the total correlation but it is an easy test that can give you an idea whether or not you might need some vision therapy.) I'm glad you clarified that, because it sure didn't seem right, lol. The bolded doesn't seem reasonable to me. If it were, then developmental optometrists wouldn't bother to do all the metrics they do in screening. It IS correct that they use lots of sizes of fonts in VT and that going back and forth or doing the same skill at a different size can be challenging, yes. But to tell people on the internet or irl that this one activity will say they don't need their eyes checked properly by a VT, that they're good to go, don't bother, cleared, that's not reasonable or safe. If people want to know if they are cleared on developmental vision issues, ask a developmental optometrist. If you want to say well here's something I noticed that to me was a red flag, THAT is fine. There are many red flags. My dd constantly stubbing her toes wasn't on your list, but it was a symptom of her depth perception issues. Your font size change improvement is reflecting making the convergence easier, but there can be issues with depth perception, tracking, etc. that aren't showing up there. It's always safer to refer. A developmental optometrist can do a screening during a regular annual appointment for FREE. The other responsible, reasonable way to put it is that if you're needing to use larger size fonts on an older dc, it's time to get their eyes checked. That's what happened to us. My dd was 10 and I was having trouble finding youth and other editions with larger fonts. I went to a homeschool meeting and asked, and it happened there was an optometrist there. She looked at me SO funny, and that was the start of our journey into VT, hehe. The important thing in referring is that you can catch people BEFORE they have enough reading proficiency to do this exercise. It's not necessary to wait that long. They can screen young children, even preschoolers or younger. They WANT to catch this stuff early. The dc could be referred and screened, just as a matter of course BEFORE the vision difficulties affect the reading, compounding the difficulty of the dyslexia. If you wanted, what you could do is write a good developmental optometrist in your area, tell them you tutor reading, and ask them for a list of things that you could use either for yourself or to tell parents as flags for referral. I haven't seen a list specifically for tutors like that, but it might be really helpful. I can tell you that they often ask questions about catching balls, because it's something almost everyone does and is where convergence issues show up. (excess and insufficiency) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 My son did OT with tracking issues. I only know about his thing. He did not have CI (convergence insufficiency). I did take him to a vision therapist for an eval and it was ruled out. The vision therapist said OT was a good option, or vision therapy, either one for him. The OT told me that they can’t rule out CI and some other things, I would need to take him to a vision therapist. Anyway — so here is the issue. My son had issues with crossing the midline. His eyes would “jump” when he crossed the middle of a page and he would lose his place. I could not see this, but other people could, hey expected that I would be able to.... just with him holding a piece of paper in front of him to read, they expected me to be able to see his eyes jump (look up and then look down) as he crossed the midline. So — this is what I was told on font size. Our eyes make sweeping movements as we read. The smaller the print, the more precise/controlled these sweeping movements need to be. It takes less precision/control to have the movements be larger. They said for some people to read on a narrower page could be easier because the sweep wouldn’t have to be as long — but that would just depend. My son had trouble finishing the end of a line and then moving his eyes to the next line, which means moving the eyes from the right side of the page back to the left side. Anyway he just did OT and it helped, he did crossing-the-midline stuff and then his eyes quit jumping at the midline. She also taught him to skip which was exciting, it also helped a lot with swimming. He had not been able to do left-right-left-right strokes with his arms in a smooth way, and that made a huge difference. He still did things like moving his left arm with his left leg when they were supposed to alternate, after he was reading fine. That has gotten better over time. It just takes him a while to get used to making movements, he doesn’t get automatic as fast as expected. To some extent I think he fatigues more quickly because he is making more effort to do some motions, but it’s no big deal. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 I googled and saccade or saccadic is the sweeping movement? A return sweep is going from the end of a line to the next line. My son had a very hard time when there would be a new paragraph starting at the beginning of a line — he would miss that entire line and start reading the second line of the paragraph, because he would just miss the indented line, it was like it wasn’t there. Then the reading wouldn’t make sense and he would be lost and have a hard time figuring it out. Well you are supposed to follow along with a finger or bookmark to help keep your place, but it was hard for him to keep a bookmark level and he had the same issue with his finger when his eyes jumped, he would still lose his place a second and have to find it again. Then he would also have trouble keeping a book held open through all this, and often a book would close on him and then he would lose his page! I tried a lot of things but mostly sat with him and held his books open and helped him and encouraged him, etc. Then much later he wanted me to still sit with him and hold his books even when it was no longer needed, sigh. Anyway — for crossing the midline there are a lot of things to look for, it isn’t only reading, but it is nothing that is obvious if you aren’t looking for it. When I saw a list it was all familiar. Even going up and down stairs can be something, by a certain age kids are supposed to be able to go left-right-left-right fairly easily and my son did left, bring right to the same step, left, bring right to the same step, for a long time, but I didn’t think anything of it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 Also, when he was younger, he had very minor CI but we chose not to do anything about it, then I went back on that about two years later and that was fine. I am vague on this but I think we got drops in his eyes to make it be like his eyes were fatigued. I know we were concerned that it happened when he was fatigued, I know we did something for that to try to mimic his eyes being tired (to show if he was able to focus them but it was taking too much effort). Anyway I felt like that was ruled out, even before I took him to the vision therapist eval. All of this happened over several years, though.... it was more like when he was 5/6 that there was the possible minor CI, and then he was 7/8 when he went to the vision therapist eval, and I took him to several other optometrist appointments with different people in the meantime (I think 3). (Edit — one of them I remember was trying to get his eyes not to focus while he was in the office, and I think we ended up having drops and waiting around, and then his eyes still did focus. This is with —— they bring something towards your nose, and your eyes are supposed to slowly move towards the center.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 29 minutes ago, Lecka said: My son did OT with tracking issues. I only know about his thing. He did not have CI (convergence insufficiency). Yes, that's exactly the point. There's more involved and just looking at the change in difficulty with font size WON'T capture the other vision issues that could be going on. And yes, I had an OT point out the midline jumping for my ds too. At that time the VT had him more in a keep watching kind of phase. Now I'm thinking I need to have him go through the reflex work and exercises in the Visual Portals book and then have the VT doc check him. It has been a while, and I just want to make sure his vision is all the way there before I push book reading. Our VT doc place isn't good about nailing body work (reflexes, etc.), and frankly I don't have anyone else around here I think is. I found a VT place that has an OT on staff, but the practice seems kind of odd. It wouldn't hurt. I just don't know. And I think it's more just that with autism and a bunch of retained reflexes there's that bodywork to do. Our VT place seemed to gloss bodywork and want to go right into vision, which is really hard for some kids. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 There are ways around the fatigue thing. I had one optometrist suggest putting the appointment in the afternoon, so that they've done school work, etc. first. Also, they do cycles with the tasks, even in screening, and they count how many cycles the dc can get to "clear" or focus in a given amount of time. So the fatigue would cause that number to drop off. But yeah, it's a known issue and something they compensate for. So conversely it's why some people pull back on school work during VT, so the kids can focus and not be so tired. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 I have some information about that.... they look at age because it is not developmentally expected to make these good eye movements until kids have been doing pencil-and-paper, table, desk, kind of stuff for a little while. Its a certain distance where they need to get used to focusing at that distance, and it is expected to take a little time (a year maybe) to develop that focus. (also the things kids look at get smaller as they get older, which requires more eye focusing) Thats what I was told when my son was at the younger age range. Something we were seeing and told to watch for was if he leaned his head close to a book (piece of paper if he was coloring or writing or something) and then jerked it back. Leaning in and jerking back are a sign the focusing is not going well. He didn’t do that anymore once he was a little older so I think that did develop for him. It was a “watch and wait” when he was 5/6 though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 My son had a huge jump with OT, not in his reading overall exactly, but definitely in his ability to read a page of text. He had been doing a lot of captions, a lot of DK books. Those were good for him, but he couldn’t read the same thing if it was put in a block of text. (He did a lot of non-fiction that would have pictures with captions under them.) He went right into being able to read a paragraph and quickly a page in Magic Tree House. It didn’t translate into him being able to read Magic Tree House by himself, though, he needed more support for that for quite a while still. But it was a big difference! Edit: in retrospect I think he had some comprehension issues that at the time I thought were “total demand overload” issues. I am seeing comprehension issues with my younger son while he doesn’t have these other issues, and it is similar! It’s hard to say, though, I just helped him with what he needed help with. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 14 minutes ago, Lecka said: He went right into being able to read a paragraph and quickly a page in Magic Tree House. It didn’t translate into him being able to read Magic Tree House by himself, though, he needed more support for that for quite a while still. That's where we're at. Ds can read a page fine. He's reading all the text on 20-30 pages of speech therapy stuff a day for me. That's a TON of reading! Some of it is paragraphs, some is captions, some is sentence completion. Just all kinds of stuff, but tons of reading. But even with that ability, he's not sitting down and reading a BOOK. And I don't want to treat it as a behavioral issue (require it, sit down and compel it) until I've cleared the question of the physical. I think we were fine before, but now with this larger amount of reading I'm just seeing little things. I can't tell what is rushing and what is vision. I think at this point I'm seeing more physical, just what I think. And since I go with my gut, haha, that's what I'm assuming. I think it will have to be followed up with a behavioral approach (sit down, this is the plan, we're doing this), but I think he probably needs some vision work. I just don't think our VT place will nail it if I go to them FIRST, and I don't have an OT who is nailing vision either. I need to turn the V/S book into a workable plan. It's got it all in there, but it's not in a format that I can just pick up and use. I need to make lists or something. There was lots of good bodywork in there, including stuff for motor planning in the mouth, developing proprioception, etc. I spent time flying this week and then we hit the theatre, which left us both with headaches. Usually Sunday afternoon I get some quiet time to read and get a plan organized... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 The dev. optom had ranges for what was acceptable at an age, and like you say he was in the acceptable range. And he can be acceptable and then slide, a few years later, into not acceptable. Ds also has astigmatism and ought to be going into glasses with more reading. We tried two different years to do that, and he just wasn't very compliant or onboard, sigh. That's the other thing I'm putting it off and why I'm not pushing book reading just yet, because I know I'll have both pieces, the developmental and the glasses. Dd though, ironically enough, floats in and out of glasses. His eyes may do that too. Sometimes she uses bifocals, sometimes a scrip for astigmatism, sometimes only computer. It has just varied, which is weird but there you go. Always the same doc, just how her mix was presenting at that time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 Honestly I think look at fluency and comprehension. Fluency was a huge, huge issue for my older son, with knowing how to phrase properly, and I think now that is very tied to comprehension, too. It takes a lot to follow along comprehension-wise in a book, there is such a higher comprehension demand. Even when it seems easy there can be a lot going on, I realize it a lot more with my younger son. I think give all the support needed for a book, there’s no need to be all or nothing if it’s not at the independent stage yet.... it took a long time for my older son and it was very frustrating to me, I think I really thought once he could decode it would all just come together and then that was not the case. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 Also keep in mind different demands between fiction and non-fiction. Not even getting into less-straightforward writing....... my older son had a lot of trouble with dialogue and with keeping track of who had said a piece of dialogue. There is a lot of stuff where there is a paragraph, it starts with quote marks and dialogue,” it ends with “he said.” It can go back and forth like this for paragraphs as you are supposed to keep track of who is who in the dialogue. My son would have no idea who the “he” in “he said” was and not be able to follow along with the dialogue. Now with reading I am doing with my younger son, I am finding this is a comprehension issue with following along with pronoun referents (also called anaphoric cueing which as far as I can tell is the same thing). Well — this is much harder in Magic Tree House even than in one page of something, and if I am with him going back and forth I could easily help him; but it’s the kind of thing that would be a huge mix-up if he was reading alone. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 Also with dialogue, for listening, the person reading will adjust their voice and this helps indicate who is speaking and what the dialogue is like. This is a LOT to add in when reading independently. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 http://schools.cms.k12.nc.us/corneliusES/Documents/Fountas-Pinnell Guided Reading Text Level Descriptions.pdf I have been looking at this lately, it is about text complexity and mentions all different ways that text can be complex. It is a way to look at why a book might be hard, separate from decoding or eye tracking kinds of things. I look at it and bc my son is at public school I know he is in level F/G, so he is just now starting to be at a level to read about non-everyday situations. So anything like that is expected to be harder for him. And then embedded phrases/clauses ———— yes, that’s harder for him too, too hard at this point. And then I don’t look at the higher levels to know if it goes into making inferences and predictions or anything like that. Anyway — there are a lot of reasons to think about why one thing is hard and one thing is do-able, that on the surface seem like the same task demands, but then it can turn out there are more task demands to figure out and work on. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 I'm going to add, as far as the F and P levels..... For most kids, the decoding level and the comprehension level will be the same. For autism, it is very common for decoding to be higher and comprehension to be lower. So ----- how this plays out..... there is decoding criteria and comprehension criteria for the levels. The comprehension criteria involves answering open-ended questions, and it is pretty tough. But it's really what they think you should know to comprehend well at a level, and do all the good comprehension practices (being an active reader, keeping track of what is going on, etc), to be able to comprehend really good at that level. Now ----- I do think there are times when kids "really do comprehend" but they can't answer the open-ended questions. But ------ I think it's really easy also, to assume that kids "really do comprehend" when they can't answer the open-ended questions! Well, I do think sometimes its the case, but a lot of times ----- not being able to answer the open-ended question really does reflect a comprehension difficulty. And then apart from that, developing the ability to answer open-ended questions is so important, I don't think it's necessary to try to have so many different levels within reading and reading comprehension so that the right level of open-ended question is asked about the right level of reading material. I think there is plenty of time to do reading at other times in the day and address the different levels. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 That's probably the explanation. He's had multiple choice testing where he scores very high, but on open-ended, where he has to use his language, he's toast. I was always under this sort of mystique that kids might have no language on the outside but be burgeoning with comprehension on the inside. You see these books and stories and I just assumed that was happening. However that didn't seem to fit our reality and doesn't fit our data. Ds actually woke up this morning and SAID he was telling me what he was thinking. I can't remember him ever saying that. "I was thinking what would happen if we had an endless supply of gold in our backyard.” I just thought was amazing on so many levels. It has description, it's something he was thinking, not something he scripted. It's good use of pronouns and complex sentence structure. I was just so pleased. The behaviorist said this week that what I'm doing, going through the myriad SLP workbooks is hitting stuff that basically would have been hit if we had gone through the foundational ABA materials years ago. She likes what we're doing. So yeah, I think the take that it's comprehension holding back on books, not behavior, is very very possible. I still want to eliminate vision as an issue, because it's just the right thing to do. I've got a couple more weeks before we resume speech therapy ths summer, so I'm gonna stay all in on my great language push. I'm getting ready to order more materials. I'm probably going to look into a reading curriculum that has discussion and levels that I can fit to his maturity, because I think that open-ended discussion could be good for him as another way to stretch his skills. Considering where we were two months ago, we've come a long way. He can now ask for breaks politely, say how he feels, get out thoughts, repeat back long sentences (which is a HUGE gig, opens up lots of possibilities), and begin to narrate. I feel good about my work and like that it's positive. I felt like when I was letting ABA workers drive it, they were harsh, not understanding, and just treating it all as a behavioral problem. I go back to Ross Greene's point that if he COULD do better he WOULD. That's why I keep digging so hard. Ross Green has a new book btw. If our library doesn't have it, I'll probably order. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1118898575/ref=ox_sc_act_title_6?smid=A1C3QU77DDT2KW&psc=1 Well I guess 2016 isn't new, but it was new to me. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 44 minutes ago, Lecka said: http://schools.cms.k12.nc.us/corneliusES/Documents/Fountas-Pinnell Guided Reading Text Level Descriptions.pdf I have been looking at this lately, it is about text complexity and mentions all different ways that text can be complex. It is a way to look at why a book might be hard, separate from decoding or eye tracking kinds of things. I look at it and bc my son is at public school I know he is in level F/G, so he is just now starting to be at a level to read about non-everyday situations. So anything like that is expected to be harder for him. And then embedded phrases/clauses ———— yes, that’s harder for him too, too hard at this point. And then I don’t look at the higher levels to know if it goes into making inferences and predictions or anything like that. Anyway — there are a lot of reasons to think about why one thing is hard and one thing is do-able, that on the surface seem like the same task demands, but then it can turn out there are more task demands to figure out and work on. MW has a book on text complexity, and I couldn't figure out why, hmmm. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 1 hour ago, Lecka said: Honestly I think look at fluency and comprehension. Fluency was a huge, huge issue for my older son, with knowing how to phrase properly, and I think now that is very tied to comprehension, too. I think you're right. I'm not sure how much fluency affects vs. reflects comprehension, but either way we'll need to work on it. I'm just putting all our effort into the grammar/comprehension stuff right now. We work on something and then move on to the next thing, because we're working pretty intensely. Like we're completing in 2-3 weeks things that typically an SLP would spend a year on. We're really making tracks. And just getting in that bulk practice is good for ds. I think on the fluency my real life practice plan was reading aloud the picture books. I'm doing holiday books with him right now, but I haven't started the 50 books for emotions yet. So working on emotions and fluency can go together nicely. Right now we're doing a lot of materials for problem solving and we're hitting really foundational grammar (pronouns, verb tenses, etc.). Hopefully we'll finish some things today and I'll print and begin a bunch of materials on "concepts". It's words like both, each, etc. Can be quantitive, blah blah. I don't know. SPARC has a workbook on it. There's a gap between what he knows receptively and what he uses actively in his speech. That's what we're gonna bump and solve. And we're going to make sure he really, really understands each word as a word, not as a component in a phrase. So far, the stuff has been really great. I'm in love with the SPARC books. I'm just thinking long-term, making my lists, not getting distracted. This week I'm working on x, then when that's done we can work on y. The behaviorist likes it, because his brain isn't distracted that way or deciding to shut certain things out. He's got to really engage with the material, because we're doing so much of it. So when we do hit prosody and fluency, it will be the same thing, a big focus, a bunch of ways. And it feels weird to say oh I'm not pushing book reading, but I can't push what isn't right. I'm building good foundations so it can all come together. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 I'd see about getting an evaluation through the schools as she may need accommodations (as you know). If the school evaluation doesn't capture what's going on, you can decide then if you want to spend the money. Sometimes you can get a private evaluator to reinterpret another evaluator's results for less money, though I don't know how that would fly with getting accommodations. For remedial work, REWARDS is fabulous. Use the secondary materials. It isn't babyish at all, and it gives kids a flexible and powerful strategy for dealing with multisyllabic words. There are also follow on materials you can use if she needs more input. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 On 6/15/2018 at 9:52 PM, Jean in Newcastle said: So... moving on from the evaluation issue... any materials out there for duslexic teens? Everything I see online is much too young. Well, it sounds like she knows the phonics rules and such, so you don't need that. What you need is remediation in phonemic awareness. (I'm assuming, given what you described). You can learn about how to do that on your own, and work with her a few minutes a day, verbally, to start with. Linking a video below that goes into more depth on phonemic skills, beyond blending and segmenting. Something like Abecedarian at least doesn't have funny pictures or whatever, but obviously the writing would be below her grade level, so you'd have to see if she'd tolerate it. My guess is she'd need the short version of B, just to fill in those gaps. You could get through it pretty quickly in a short amount of time per day. http://www.abcdrp.com/level-b-2-1/ Level B - Short Version This level is designed for students who read at the third grade level or higher but who read very slowly or can't sound out unfamiliar words reliably. It contains essentially the same content as in the B1/B2 materials but presented in an accelerated format. Moreover, unlike the regular Level B, there is much work with nonsense words, so that students must use their blending and segmenting skills and phonics knowledge to read and spell the words and not merely recite words they have already memorized as visual wholes. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 And if she CAN read at grade level, i doubt the school will do anything for you, really. Sad but true. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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