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I always read posts searching for curriculum that is less teacher intensive for subject XYZ.   But now I’m curious as to how people define “teacher intensive.”  Do you mean lots of prep time?  Do you mean time spent in direct instruction?  How much direct instructional time is too much?

When people are looking for less intense curriculum, are they looking for a book written to the student that the kid can just go off and do it by themselves 100% of the time?

i understand that at some point the child needs to be independent in his studies, by if we are talking about 5th grade and lower, what is your definition or opinion on the term “teacher intensive”?

 

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17 minutes ago, domestic_engineer said:

I always read posts searching for curriculum that is less teacher intensive for subject XYZ.   But now I’m curious as to how people define “teacher intensive.”  Do you mean lots of prep time?  Do you mean time spent in direct instruction?  How much direct instructional time is too much?

When people are looking for less intense curriculum, are they looking for a book written to the student that the kid can just go off and do it by themselves 100% of the time?

i understand that at some point the child needs to be independent in his studies, by if we are talking about 5th grade and lower, what is your definition or opinion on the term “teacher intensive”?

 

When I say that, I mean you have to be *right there* with your child the whole time, directing and instructing. There isn't a time where you can do some teaching and then walk away while your children work on their own. If you only have one child, you can do that, although I think there's value in doing something that the children can work on their own; but when there are multiple children, of all ages, having too many things that are parent intensive just doesn't work for most people.

I would expect children 11yo and younger to be able to do some things on their own, but not all things, and not without mother-child face time. I'm not a fan of something like ACE, where there needs to be very little interaction between parents and children.

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6 minutes ago, domestic_engineer said:

Right - so by that definition, isn't Kindergarten and 1st grade teacher intensive, no matter what curriculum you choose?  

Yes. And that was exactly our experience with the early elementary grades. And honestly, because I had a students with LDs, that meant teacher intensive up into high school -- although along about 6th grade, I could get him set up, walk away for 10 minutes and then check in again. But even until high school, I really had to sit with him for math to keep him on task. So even though we were using a very non-teacher intensive math program (Math-U-See), the subject of math STILL required intensive teacher time for that student with those issues.

As far as solo work for the early elementary grades: we were able to add a some things that DSs were able to do on their own, but the "spine" or main curricula still required me to participate throughout. Things that could be done mostly independently in the early elementary grades:
- copywork for handwriting was pretty independent
- once explained, the phonics page(s) for the day were pretty independent
- if reading well, then solo reading practice
- listening to an audiobook for a read-aloud
- educational computer games (each DS had a 30 minute turn each day, so I could work one-on-one with the other DS, and then they'd swap)
- "fun pages" for critical thinking -- mazes, very simple word searches or sudoku or ken-ken puzzles, hidden picture puzzles etc.
- supplemental math resources of a manipulative and go-along booklet (example: pattern blocks and Patternables, or, Math Discoveries with Pattern Blocks)
- enjoying a kit of some kind for solo exploration
- create with art supplies
- watch an educational video

While we didn't homeschool kindergarten, it wouldn't be too difficult over the summer to set up a series of bags or other materials for solo learning and for practice of fine motor skills. But again, the major curricula for reading and math for Kinder and 1st grade for the average student) would really need to be taught and worked on with parent alongside. However, the nice thing is, that you can be done in 30-40 min. of sit-down, concentrated work with a Kinder student, and 60-80 minutes with a 1st grader. Even if doing 2 students in those grades separately, you'll be completely done in 1.5-2 hours.

BEST of luck as you plan for what materials best fit your student(s) and you!

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25 minutes ago, domestic_engineer said:

Right - so by that definition, isn't Kindergarten and 1st grade teacher intensive, no matter what curriculum you choose?  

 

I think Kindergarten and 1st are more teacher intensive than later grades, but there are definitely self correcting materials, or open ended activities that a Kindergartener or first grader can do.  

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19 minutes ago, Sarah0000 said:

Not if your kindergarten or first grade child is doing self led studies. There are some things my K boy will do on his own, certain math workbooks and science stuff especially.

Fair enough!  I'm probably operating under the assumption of teacher-directed studies ... but I didn't state my assumptions up front!  ?

 

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15 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

BEST of luck as you plan for what materials best fit your student(s) and you!

Lori D., 

I always appreciate your thoughtful posts; thanks for responding to my question.

 I quoted your last sentiment because it made me chuckle ..... I've been at this long enough to know my own priorities and preferred styles and curriculum.  I asked the question to try to understand other homeschoolers ... to try to be more gracious and understanding.  I need all the help I can get to be more gracious and step out of my echo chamber. ?

I *do* like how you explicitly said that the "spine" of the curriculum is dependent on me, the teacher.  And then the independent activities can be added as supporting material.  (That's how I operate.). But when people are looking for less teacher intensive curriculum, they are talking about reducing the direct instructional time that they have to do, right?!?

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1 minute ago, domestic_engineer said:

I *do* like how you explicitly said that the "spine" of the curriculum is dependent on me, the teacher.  And then the independent activities can be added as supporting material.  (That's how I operate.). But when people are looking for less teacher intensive curriculum, they are talking about reducing the direct instructional time that they have to do, right?!?

Well, I can only speak for me and what I think "teacher intensive" means, based on my experiences with various materials, but esp. due to my experiences with my unique students, who, Lord love them, for different reasons, required me to be right there year after year -- so it pretty much felt like everything was "teacher intensive" for me, regardless of how it was designed to be used. ; )

But yes, I do agree with you that most people are thinking that "less teacher-intensive curriculum" means:
- reduced direct instructional time
- and possibly also reduced prep (before use) and grading (after use) time

: )

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7 minutes ago, domestic_engineer said:

 I quoted your last sentiment because it made me chuckle ..... I've been at this long enough to know my own priorities and preferred styles and curriculum.  I asked the question to try to understand other homeschoolers ... to try to be more gracious and understanding.  I need all the help I can get to be more gracious and step out of my echo chamber.

lol! The very fact you posted this suggests to me that you are much more gracious and understanding than you may be giving yourself credit for. (:D

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I think there is a difference between teacher intensive and teacher "present."   For example, I use spelling programs where the students can not do anything without me right there talking to them and calling out words/sentences. No teacher = no spelling can be done.  

Math, otoh, I can explain a concept, make sure they understand what I have taught, and then I can unload the dishwasher while they work on problems on their own. That is less teacher intensive than say a math program based on manipulatives and playing math games with me. That would require me "fully present" for their entire math lesson just like spelling.  No teacher would mean no math could be done.

However, more and more I see the requests toward self-teaching/no teacher involvement vs the distinction between the other 2. (Teaching Textbooks, for example, where there is a "teacher" included.)

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10 hours ago, domestic_engineer said:

Right - so by that definition, isn't Kindergarten and 1st grade teacher intensive, no matter what curriculum you choose?  

To a certain extent, yes; but for little 5- and 6yo persons (because homeschooled children are not "in" "grades," right?), *I* only do a couple of things, such as reading instruction and possibly arithmetic.  There's lots of free time for the children to goof off on their own. When we were hsing, we went to the library weekly, and the dc could check out whatever they wanted to, or none at all, and I never asked them  if they were reading those books or not. We left the house every Thursday for a field trip. I guess you could say the field trips were "parent intensive," except that I was enjoying myself, as well, so it didn't feel like it. :-)

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10 hours ago, domestic_engineer said:

Right - so by that definition, isn't Kindergarten and 1st grade teacher intensive, no matter what curriculum you choose?  

This past year my first grader had some curricula that was very teacher intensive:

All About Spelling - I had to be sitting with him every minute

Writing with Ease - I had to read, ask questions, scribe narrations, etc.

Science and History - I had to read, discuss, lead experiments or activities, etc.

Singapore Challenging Word Problems - These were very challenging for him and required me to be right there and often scribing

 

and other curricula that was much less so:

Math Mammoth and Beast Academy - I just got him started and checked in once in a while (more often if he was staring into space)

Assigned Reading - He just came to me to narrate when he was done

Handwriting - I just had to inspect his work once completed

Art - I helped with set up and clean up, but he watched the videos and worked mostly independently

 

Since I am managing 4 small children, getting kids working independently is a high priority for me.  Not independent like they go off somewhere to work alone (none of my children can successfully stay on task if they are out of my sight), but independent in that I can check in every 5-10 minutes to clarify, encourage and troubleshoot, and then they will continue to work on a small, clearly defined task somewhat diligently while I cycle though the other children.  Even my 2 year old is part of the cycle and encouraged toward independence, though her task might be to work on getting her pajama shirt off for a few minutes until I come back to check on her...then I have the 9 year old read me one of his Killgallon sentences to make sure he is successfully following the model, I check the last couple Beast Academy problems the 7 year old has done to make sure he is still on track, I glance at the 4 year old's Explode the Code work and answer a question he has about an unclear picture, and then I go back to clap for a very proud little girl who is now completely naked.

Wendy

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1 hour ago, Ellie said:

 but for little 5- and 6yo persons (because homeschooled children are not "in" "grades," right?), *  

 

 

No, not right. My homeschooled children were always "in" a grade. Yours may not have been, but plenty of them are. 

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16 minutes ago, katilac said:

 

No, not right. My homeschooled children were always "in" a grade. Yours may not have been, but plenty of them are. 

 

1 hour ago, Ellie said:

but for little 5- and 6yo persons (because homeschooled children are not "in" "grades," right?), 

Well, I can rephrase to be more precise ..... until the kiddo is a strong reader, isn’t it going to be teacher intensive no matter what curriculum you choose?

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1 hour ago, domestic_engineer said:

 

Well, I can rephrase to be more precise ..... until the kiddo is a strong reader, isn’t it going to be teacher intensive no matter what curriculum you choose?


I don't know.  If you follow a philosophy like Montessori, there are instructional 3-part lessons but work periods for individual work without the teacher.

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I think of teacher intensive as meaning that the resource requires me to interact with my child for extended periods in order to use it effectively.  

My experience with various types of resources is that the less teacher involvement that is required, the more likely it is that the student is working below their true instructional level.

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23 minutes ago, EKS said:

I think of teacher intensive as meaning that the resource requires me to interact with my child for extended periods in order to use it effectively.  

My experience with various types of resources is that the less teacher involvement that is required, the more likely it is that the student is working below their true instructional level.

I agree with this, but I don't think that it is necessarily bad.

I do short, teacher-intensive reading lessons with my 4 year old; I aim them exactly at his instructional level.  However, he also does Explode the Code a bit below his level for review and fluency practice.

I sit right with my 7 year old and work through Singapore Challenging word problems right at a challenging, instructional level.  However, his mental health challenges make this very difficult for him, and limit our sessions to ~10 minutes.  He then works on Math Mammoth and/or Beast Academy several steps below his instructional level.  These offer additional math practice, as well as practice in focus and endurance.

My 9 year old is currently working through Killgallon sentence composing which he is finding pretty easy.  I certainly could move him to a more difficult, teacher-intensive curriculum, but he is enjoying Killgallon, he is feeling confident about his writing, and I am seeing improvements in his original sentences.  I think for the time being he needs to just solidify his writing skills while focusing on summarizing and organizing information so he has coherent ideas to write about.

In all of these cases, the less teacher-intensive, "too easy" curricula are serving a purpose.  They also free up my time so that I can prioritize teacherintensive curricula for each of the kids in the areas that they most need it right now.

Wendy

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1 hour ago, HomeAgain said:


I don't know.  If you follow a philosophy like Montessori, there are instructional 3-part lessons but work periods for individual work without the teacher.

I am more of a classical homeschooler but I do follow Montessori loosely within my home due to my time spent in that environment and I apply the 3 part lesson to most curriculums where I can. I love the model regardless of age.

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When I say "teacher intensive" I typically mean any curriculum that never allows a child to be independent such as Rightstart Math in the early levels or All About Spelling for example. 

Somewhat intensive might be something that requires the teacher daily for part of it such as Saxon k-3 for example. Or it could be something that requires the teacher to be there but doesn't take long like FLL. 

If I am going to use a teacher intensive curriculum with my kids then I tend to choose some less teacher dependent curriculums to balance it out. 

There are curriculums like SYS, BJU English and MUS that allows the teacher to do a Monday lesson and then the child can work pretty independently the rest of the week with just a simple bit of instruction or guidance. I like these when I can use them because it gives the child both good instruction and practice but also allows them to learn critical independence skills. 

I don't consider prep to be teacher intensive. It might be but I feel most curriculum requires some prep and those with zero prep often are the scripted ones that require you to be present. 

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11 hours ago, katilac said:

 

No, not right. My homeschooled children were always "in" a grade. Yours may not have been, but plenty of them are. 

I just said that because homeschoolers will often say their children never know what to say when people ask what grade they're in because they're working at different levels in every subject, and because homeschoolers tend to mush up what "grade level" means, what with redshirting and stuff. It is why I think it's more useful to talk about how old the children are. But you're welcome, of course, to do whatever works best for you. :-)

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I think there is a continuum. All About Reading for example is very teacher intensive, where as Abecedarian has some pages she can do on her own after I explain them. (like sorting words into groups based on their sound..once I make sure she knows how to pronounce the words I can let her do that on her own). Explode the Code might be even less teacher intensive, not sure. 

 

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To me, BFSU is the absolute definition of "teacher intensive." I love it, but it is a lot of work for me to internalize the lesson, find and gather resources, get the household supplies and other gear for the demonstration.... A LOT. 

I also use AAS, WWE, etc, and though I do sit there leading those lessons, at least they are open and go. 

Come to think of it, pretty much everything I use could be called teacher intensive. Sigh. Maybe that will change as the kids grow. 

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I have two types of things that fit 'teacher intensive' and both have been mentioned.

*  I have to be right there, all (or almost all) the time, directing the lesson. There is not much of anything that can be done independently. First Language Lessons, Spell to Write & Read, McRuffy Math (Kindergarten), etc.

*  Stuff that requires planning, setting up, grabbing materials, etc. -- whatever is the opposite of "open and go."

So, some scripted stuff (like FLL or WWE) can be 'teacher intensive' by the first definition but not the second. Some (Spell to Write & Read) fall under both categories for me although I try my best to get things planned & set up in the easiest possible ways so everything is open & go once the school year starts.

My kids are late readers, and they are also late-to-be-independent. So, I do try to mix some less teacher intensive stuff in so that the kids don't need me 100% of the time. 

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On 6/9/2018 at 8:14 AM, 8FillTheHeart said:

I think there is a difference between teacher intensive and teacher "present."   For example, I use spelling programs where the students can not do anything without me right there talking to them and calling out words/sentences. No teacher = no spelling can be done.  

Math, otoh, I can explain a concept, make sure they understand what I have taught, and then I can unload the dishwasher while they work on problems on their own. That is less teacher intensive than say a math program based on manipulatives and playing math games with me. That would require me "fully present" for their entire math lesson just like spelling.  No teacher would mean no math could be done.

However, more and more I see the requests toward self-teaching/no teacher involvement vs the distinction between the other 2. (Teaching Textbooks, for example, where there is a "teacher" included.)

I agree with 8. 

My kids need me to use a program for spelling where we work intensely together to learn the words.  If they were natural spellers we could use something like Spelling Workout, where I would pre-test, go over lesson instructions, they would do the workpages on their own and I'd check. That, to me is not teacher-intensive--that is teaching.  But it wouldn't work, so I sit with them and actively work through all activities in Apples and Pears or Spelling Power--that is teacher intensive.

I think  a lot of curriculum have come out that are teacher intensive for reading, math, writing and spelling (and history and science).  I think that we tend to think that these are always better and necessary, so a lot of parents may chose things like AAS or AAR for their kids who may do fine with something like phonics flashcards and practice reading (still requiring parent, but less prep and less coming at the skill from different modalities --which is great for all, but only completely necessary for those who aren't getting a simpler approach)

So, while I would love to have been able to have lots of math games and manipulatives every math lesson for my kids, the reality is that with 4 of them (and often a baby/toddler) I had to balance that with the fact that my kids just get math easily.  So we do games when we can and use manipulatives for new concepts and ones where they get stuck.  That way we use my energy and time for spelling. Otherwise, I would have seriously neglected my youngest as I led all the other through many more bells and whistles than they actually needed to understand.

I have also told the story of how I abandoned lit-rich, hands-on rich science for my middle two for a few years and went with a textbook and you can do the experiment if you want approach. They absolutely thrived. They were interested in science for the first time.  And my dd has done just fine with chemistry and labs in ninth grade despite the "neglect".

So, I think, for some folks they just need to hear that there are a lot of ways to approach subjects and it doesn't have to always be with bells and whistles for every subject to have a rich education.

For others they need to hear that, yes, young kids need you actually to teach them one on one for a certain amount of time and reading, math, spelling and writing can not be taught on their own.  It's important to listen about which they are actually asking.

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Wow. Based on these responses it seems "teacher intensive" is going to be at least partially dependent on what the teacher likes to do and what resources are easily accessible in the home. For me, I find anything with cutting, pasting, and assembling, either as prep beforehand or with the student as teacher intensive, even if it's only five minutes. On the other hand I find things like BFSU really easy, just open the book, discuss, and occasionally grab a piece of paper or random object to show a concept.  

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There are a couple of factors that determine whether something is teacher intensive to me.  Some programs require that you work with your student - the MCT language arts package is like this.  We love it, but I don't think that a whole day like that would work for us.  This leads to the second factor - do the kids like working with somebody?  My younger loves it, and my older prefers to do almost everything independently.  Even the MCT is often read separately and then we discuss the parts that need discussing.  Younger would prefer that I sit by their side and do every step of every assignment with them, although they don't need it.  Even in K, though, both of my kids did certain things on their own.  For example, once we figured out the HWOT method, both kids could follow the arrows and do handwriting on their own.

Another thing is required prep.  I enjoy looking over options, deciding how we'll schedule the lessons, etc, during the summer.  Once we get into the school year, though, I want to be able to move along at our pre-determined schedule guideline without having to rethink it every day.  I order any books that we need and check each month to pull out anything that we'd need to read, but I don't want to be scrambling to do it each day..and I know myself well enough to know that random gathering of craft supplies isn't going to happen.  I have supplies on shelves that the kids can get, and History Unboxed, while somewhat overpriced, has been great because the projects actually get done. 

Finally, prior knowledge also affects how much planning is needed.  Husband and I are both STEM people, and the kids seem to pick up math topics quickly.  People often complain about juggling multiple books with Singapore Math, but we usually move through using just the workbook (and unit tests).  If I'm not sure how they're explaining something, a quick glance at the textbook works, and I can go years without using the home instuctor's guide.  For me, it's low prep, low involvement (my kids often look at an example and are off and running).  But, language arts doesn't work the same way for us- it's why I love MCT.  I need the explanations because I don't know a lot about poetry and literary devices, and if I had to research it all myself, it would take forever.  I guess it could be restated as 'If I know it well, it doesn't take much prep, but if I don't know it, I have to either learn it ahead of or alongside my student', which makes it time-intensive no matter what the style of the lesson is.  I think this can be more true of skills that information, though.  I need to understand the literary devices to discuss them with my student.  If I don't remember the details of which Roman leader did what, I can still listen to my student talk about what they read and then ask whether it seemed like a good or bad idea, what effects they'd expect, or other discussion and thinking questions.  

With that being said, everything is 'teacher intensive' until the student is able to do it on their own.  After butting heads with younger a bit, I decided to order an elementary school Critical Thinking Company science workbook so that kiddo could work without being 'bothered' by me. ?    It was a nightmare in the beginning because they didn't know how make inferences and read for details...so we spent a 'teacher intensive' 2 weeks doing the pages together 3x/week.  After that, though, it was independent work.  

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14 hours ago, Sarah0000 said:

On the other hand I find things like BFSU really easy, just open the book, discuss, and occasionally grab a piece of paper or random object to show a concept.  

This is very different (shocking? Amazing?). I have never heard BFSU described as easy, and all the people IRL who have tried to use it have quit because of the extensive prep and planning involved.

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2 hours ago, RootAnn said:

This is very different (shocking? Amazing?). I have never heard BFSU described as easy, and all the people IRL who have tried to use it have quit because of the extensive prep and planning involved.


We honestly didn't have a lot of trouble with it, either.  I went to the BFSU community and downloaded a lesson plan someone else had made to interweave the threads.  Along with it was a list of books that correlate to the lessons.  Each week, I spent a few minutes gathering materials or making things like little cards on Word and cutting them apart (like for labeling types of energy).  I read over the 3-4 different parts of the lesson and separated them into days that would work best and made sure I knew what vocabulary to highlight.  Prep took me about 20 minutes for the week. Then we started our week with the first activity and continued through to the last.

BFSU was so much easier than I was expecting and the lessons were great for my 2nd grader.  He knew every week there was something hands on, real discussion about science, and possibly some library books to go with (I also bookmarked a link of great activities for some fun play).  I can totally do a curriculum that is only 20 minutes prep each week!  In fact, I just bought the second volume, downloaded another lesson plan, and have it set up in my planning binder with a mini supply list next to each week.

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Yeah, I pick and choose from the continuum of intensive to non-intensive. It depends on the subject and depends on the kid. I also require almost complete open and go curriculum. If I have to sit and plan and gather lots of materials, it will never happen. I know this about myself, and just stay away from anything else. So for my purposes, I consider "teacher-intensive" to be the amount of energy and time required from me while the child does the lesson.

Even our non-parent-intensive curriculum still require something of me. My girls all use Hoffman Academy, for example. They watch the video lesson, following along on the piano. The practice sessions tell them what to practice and how much. But the whole time I'm listening to what they're doing, making sure they're getting it, explaining concepts more or making them go back and review others if they are weak. And if they are confused or need help, I'm there to help. It seems completely hands-off. And it could be, but I think it is best if I am involved.

And AAS is one of our easiest curricula. I read a book while doing it most days and spend maybe an average of 5-10 minutes per kid per day. I consider it medium-intensive because while I have to be there, it doesn't require much of me mentally and there's a lot of down time, except on days I'm teaching new concepts, which is about 1 in 5. Beast Academy can be either intensive or not, depending on the day and how hard the concept is for my child.

For us, Miquon ended up being very hands-off for me. My Miquon girls naturally seemed to get it, and while I had to do some explanation and always checked their work, I was minimally involved, even from the beginning.

I consider FLL to be intensive, because I have to sit and have a conversation with the child the entire time. If I'm not there talking, the lesson isn't happening. In fact, that's probably why we won't do the WTM middle school grammar. Because I just can't do 4 teacher-intensive grammars at once if there are other options and kids that age are capable of more independent work. There's no reason I need to read the definition of a noun to them when they could read it to themselves.

All that to say, I think a balance of both is important, especially if you are schooling multiple children. There's only so much time in the day and only one me, so I do what is necessary.

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To me, teacher intensive is when the program requires more prep, time, or hand-holding from me than is truly necessary for the subject. So for K, though most of it is fully hands-on with me, I don't consider those things to necessarily be teacher intensive, it's just the age and I need to be there anyway. For my 4th grader, doing AAS is definitely more teacher intensive than say SyS which I could hand to her and just go over once or twice a week. For my kiddo doing AAR1, that is more teacher intensive than something like OPGTR because there is so much more to it. I often have to cut up a worksheet for something, play a game, use the cards..... It's a lot more involved than some other programs. I don't consider it teacher intensive if I have to be right there just because the kid needs it. For math, we use Singapore. We do a hands-on lesson, then she does workbook. I have to be RIGHT THERE or my kid gets super distracted. But that's because of my kid, not the curriculum. 

Right start math: teacher intensive, Singapore math: not teacher intensive, Teaching Textbooks: independent. 

I generally think nothing of it when someone asks for something less teacher intensive. No matter how involved you are, it would be near impossible to have a teacher intensive curricula for every subject, especially with multiple kids. 

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12 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I think how teacher intensive stuff is does depend on the student quite a lot.  Mine seem to need me for all of math.   

3

 

One of mine needed me nearby so she could complain about the names of the people in word problems, or to point out when she wrote a particularly beautiful Q. I am strongly advising her to join many, many study groups in college. 

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