Can we talk Apples and Pears?

[PeterPan]

The wisdom of the ancients has faded from the board with the software changeover. Hardly anything is turning up on google site searches, when I know people have talked about this a lot. 

-Would it be crazy to do it with scribing or using tiles or an app instead?

-Has anyone compared it to SRA Spelling Mastery?

We need to do something for spelling. I've got AAS 1-6 and Barton (except what I sold) through 5. AAS takes effort from me and is tedious and it doesn't really get us anywhere. It's not really anything useful or what he cares about spelling. He probably would benefit from the pattern (morphology) driven approach of some of these other things like A&P or Spelling Mastery. We use tons of worksheets and they're a great thing for us. Anything where I can just throw a page in the pile is SO good for us, works great. He writes only at the single word level, is diagnosed (doubled down, EVERYONE agrees) with dysgraphia, and his IEP says as accommodations that he have a scribe for anything sentence length or longer. So even writing the equivalent of a sentence over the whole page would be a lot. When we've done AAS lessons, he will grab the whiteboard and write himself for a few single words.

He wasn't actually developmentally ready for spelling till this year. That's why we totally skipped the written output with Barton. He couldn't write it but it was more just that he had no use, no need, no cognizance. Now he wants it and would benefit from some ability to spell. His working memory slipped, but I think I've gotten that up. So now he's ready to do something and I just need to pick something useful and sensible that acknowledges that he has that dyslexia-driven phonological processing issue that is going to make it tedious.

See anything brilliant there? I would also take out of the box, way out of the box crazy ideas. After all, the kid who doesn't use a math curriculum and tests on grade level doesn't necessarily need a spelling curriculum either. Maybe we need to do something ELSE? Something other?

[Lecka]

I think you have two separate things.

One is your spelling curriculum.

Then there are all the things you can add.  You can see, some kids will do best with one thing.  Some kids will do better with practicing in a variety of ways. 

That can be tiles;  it can be using colors — using highlighters to look for patterns, using different colors when writing, etc;  it can be using dry erase markers;  it can be oral spelling while bouncing or playing catch;  it can be sky writing;  it can be tracing on different surfaces.  All those kinds of things can go with any program.  

[Lecka]

You can also slow down or cut lists in half and things like that, with any program.  

Doing a smaller amount at a time was really helpful for my oldest son.  

He did best for practice with looking for words using spelling patterns and highlighting them, and with tracing onto surfaces, when he was younger.  

Also some kids use enlarged graph paper to write one letter per box more easily.  

Also I don’t know if you see problems at the segmenting level, but if there are problems or mistakes there, then taking time to help segment and review how to segment the words is worth the effort.  

[Lecka]

I think AAS introduces consonant blends pretty early and if those are a problem, that was a reason I looked for materials that didn’t have blends so early or used a lot fewer words with blends, with my older son.  He had a lot of trouble with blends but was able to do other things while he was slowly working on segmenting blends.  

[Dmmetler]

I'm using Apples and Pears A with a tutoring student, and it's very gentle as far as the amount of writing expected. I'm using tiles, shooting phonograms with a nerf gun, chalk, playdough...you name it. It does require an adult to do it with the child, although some parts can be more independent, and has a lot of things timed for speed, but it's much less fiddly than AAS. It also isn't baby looking, if that is a concern for your DS (my student is 8, and is definitely not in a mood to be babied).

[Lecka]

As far as supports for writing, even writing a sentence, my son has “word bank” as a support, so he can have a word wall type thing with words his little group comes up with and the teacher writes, or he can have words written on the top of his paper.  It can be a nice “help getting started” type of thing too.  

My older son at an older age had the same (only expected to write one sentence, otherwise scribing or typing) and he was comparably really capable and able to write a sentence independently and without stress.  

So I think feel free to provide more support for writing!  Doing it with more support is definitely better than having it be too frustrating.  

[Stibalfamily]

Out of the box...Touch Type to Read and Spell is Orton Gillingham. Maybe take the writing away from the spelling and learn to type instead.  https://www.readandspell.com/us/orton-gillingham-reading-instruction

On a related note, I have the new AAS letter tiles app and I really like it a lot and it helps me get AAS done. Other days I just use our Boogie board and we use that for our lessons. 

[PeterPan]

7 hours ago, dmmetler said:

I'm using Apples and Pears A with a tutoring student, and it's very gentle as far as the amount of writing expected. I'm using tiles, shooting phonograms with a nerf gun, chalk, playdough...you name it. It does require an adult to do it with the child, although some parts can be more independent, and has a lot of things timed for speed, but it's much less fiddly than AAS. It also isn't baby looking, if that is a concern for your DS (my student is 8, and is definitely not in a mood to be babied).

My ds would love your use of the nerf gun! LOL So how are you doing that? You lick the tips and they stick? It's just sorta the intention? I'm missing it. Are you saying that if you do the words of the lesson, but in another way, the lesson still works fine? That's what I basically wasn't sure of.

So I talked it through with the behaviorist, and she said we have two issues. One is we would benefit from some structure that has him writing a small amount each day. The other is spelling. And those can either merge or not merge. I went ahead and ordered the Visual/Spatial Portals book Visual/Spatial Portals to Thinking, Feeling and Movement: Advancing Competencies and Emotional Development in Children with Learning and Autism Spectrum Disorders someone had mentioned ages ago. It was maybe a year or two ago and I don't remember who, sorry. I don't know why I didn't buy it, but I decided to buy it now. It seems to have a very thorough discussion of just about everything imaginable for bodywork for kids with disabilities. Goes through all the reflexes, the VT stuff, some other funky stuff. There were things in there that I think might be meant to target dysgraphia and some others for oral proprioception. I sorta hate to push writing TOO hard, because it really, really wasn't going well before. He's pretty relaxed/chilled now. I want to see if this book gets us any farther. Then I'll feel like I have some comfort to require more.

Stibal, yes we need to work on typing. I finally got a keyboard completely altered to Dvorak, which is what I'm adamant he'll use. With his ASD, I couldn't have him realizing it was different. I bought a new keyboard and pulled off all the keys to rearrange them. It's a little crazy, but it worked. I only had to alter the ones that have the bumps for your pointer finger locations. So I'm hoping that lets us work on typing a bit more. It hasn't gone very well, but we'll see. Right now we're doing a crazy huge language push, and then we'll slow down and go back to a regular routine. With Dvorak, we'll stay on the home row quite a while. He can type an astonishing amount just from there, like complete sentences.

He had been doing really well with the Barton spelling we did, but he lost a lot of ground (working memory, ability to hold it all in his head and do it) when we slowed down with that. Also he just really wasn't clicking with spelling. It had no use to him. Now he wants it. So we'll see. The behaviorist liked the idea of software. I just haven't found anything. I'd be good with a multi-pronged approach, like maybe a page a day of A&P plus some software. Dunno. I'll go look at that TTRS. I loved Talking Fingers, but going to Dvorak kills that. Sigh.

[AimeeM]

I've been using Apples and Pears for about 7-ish (?) years now. I used it with my now-16 year old DD and I'm going through it a second time with my 9 year old son. 

ADDING the letter tiles is definitely doable. However, I wouldn't go the scribe route and I wouldn't sub out the writing in favor of them. One of the major components (and why it works so well, in my opinion) is that it hits the multi-sensory notes -- the kids hear the letter/sound/word, say the letters/sounds/words, they see the letters/sounds/words, they write it while saying the letter sounds and the word, and so on. If you scribe, you're losing a huge part of the program (and, in my experience with the program, the component that seems to have the most benefit long-term, for retention).

My 9 year old definitely struggles with writing. At 9, he still can't form most basic letters legibly. However, A&P is gentle, and even recommends halving the lessons if necessary. 

[Lecka]

My older son did/does have more severe dysgraphia..... it’s a lot better now but he still has illegible scribbles with longer writing.  

Anyway — I do agree that it is good to have a “writing” part to make it multi sensory.

But imo it does NOT have to be writing on paper.

Tracing will do the same thing, and can provide much more feedback.  Tracing on different surfaces worked very well with my son.

All the ideas for tracing or running fingers through different things like liquid soap bubbles, for letter formation, still work for spelling.  It is still forming the letters.

I got advice skywriting would probably be really good for my son too but he just didn’t like it that much.  He did it in OT.  In OT he also did oversized letters on a dry erase board — both of those, I was told iirc, provide a lot of feedback because they are engaging a large shoulder muscle and it’s more feedback than making tiny hand movements. 

A dry erase board can also work and be easier or less stressful than writing on paper.

Anyway for us, my older son was working on letter formation at the same time he was starting to work on spelling, so paper and pencil was not going to be very good, but working on letter formation was very needed.  

For him I doubt he could have typed when he was at that age, it was hard for him to learn.  He had a lot of trouble moving his fingers off of the home row. 

I think for kids who do well with typing and it is working — go for it.

Typing has been amazing here, there was just a long time spent wishing he could type when he couldn’t, and his frustration level was so high, that I actually typed for him and *manipulated the mouse for him* for a lot of things until he was older.  Even in 5th grade he could need help manipulating the mouse.  Now he does it smoothly and easily, yay.  

Edit:  I just remembered I think his tutor would stick things on the wall with post-it notes a lot of the time, it would be easy for her to stick them up and take them down that way.  

[Lecka]

Also it’s not something that I could pull off, but my younger son had a tutor who wound tape index cards to the wall and my son would throw things at the index cards.  He loved it and would be very engaged.  I pictured something like that with the nerf guns.  They wouldn’t have to stick, you could tell if it hit nearby.  You can also space them widely if needed.  

For him a good idea is to look at ways to practice that combine some sensory or action.  It is more engaging for him and helps his attitude.  He is a kid who learns more when he is engaged and having fun, that matters more for him than “this part of his brain is engaged by this process” — just engagement works well for him.  But then he may need variety to stay engaged and if he is not engaged he will give wrong answers (not on purpose) and it’s hard to re-engage at that point.  Also he might be tired at that point!!!!!  He is a serious “stop before he’s tired” kind of kid.  He starts to slow down and may turn his head, those are signs for him he is getting tired, he really needs to “end on success” at that point.  Because at that point he can still be engaged in a different (easier or just different) activity, and if pushed he will just withdraw and it is really not good for him.  

[PeterPan]

8 hours ago, AimeeM said:

I've been using Apples and Pears for about 7-ish (?) years now. I used it with my now-16 year old DD and I'm going through it a second time with my 9 year old son. 

ADDING the letter tiles is definitely doable. However, I wouldn't go the scribe route and I wouldn't sub out the writing in favor of them. One of the major components (and why it works so well, in my opinion) is that it hits the multi-sensory notes -- the kids hear the letter/sound/word, say the letters/sounds/words, they see the letters/sounds/words, they write it while saying the letter sounds and the word, and so on. If you scribe, you're losing a huge part of the program (and, in my experience with the program, the component that seems to have the most benefit long-term, for retention).

My 9 year old definitely struggles with writing. At 9, he still can't form most basic letters legibly. However, A&P is gentle, and even recommends halving the lessons if necessary. 

That's what I wondered about. It seemed like the writing was a really intention component. Thanks!

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, Lecka said:

... there was just a long time spent wishing he could type when he couldn’t...

Yup, it's been frustrating enough for him so far that we've had to back off and go gingerly. His frustration tolerance is higher now, meaning we can work it a bit more consistently, but it's definitely not anywhere near being a functional tool.

The reason some people/programs connect the writing and spelling is because you get kinesthetic memory. 

[PeterPan]

Ds is actually pretty easy to teach as far as methods. He'll use tiles, beanbags, whiteboards, anything. We're FINALLY getting some language for asking for breaks. I just try to keep things in very small chunks so he doesn't get frustrated.

Is the program conducive to cursive? He's asked about cursive and keeps trying to figure it out. I wanted to try it on him to see what happens. I thought I saw that A&P 1 opens with a manuscript writing review. What would happen then if you wanted to branch into cursive?

[Lecka]

Well I think they are connecting handwriting, and I think that is different from writing a sentence and working on writing a sentence.  

A lot of programs DO connect writing and handwriting, because many kids can do that.  

But then if you are separating out, you can separate out needing to spell for writing (like writing a sentence) in various ways.

And you can separate out handwriting for spelling but then I agree it can still be good to have the letter formation component (but not by writing on paper). And then I think some kids don’t have an issue and can do great typing and not need to connect to letter formation.  Or they have the muscle memory from typing.  Since my son always needed more input (I was told) and typing does not provide as much input, I think that is a factor for him.  But many kids don’t need input and are solid on letter formations!!!!! And then it is just different and I think typing can be great and kinesthenic.  But I am saying even handwriting with pencil and paper was not good kinesthetic feedback for my son, so...... it’s just not the same.  For many kids that is perfect kinesthetic feedback.  

And my younger son who has autism has fine kinesthetic feedback with pencil and paper.  It does make life so much easier lol.  But he does not have dysgraphia.  

For my older son he needed the kinesthetic part, he definitely needed it, but the easy way of just writing on paper wouldn’t do good for him, and typing wouldn’t either at the time, and those are both good but he had to have more input.

And you know me, I am not drawn to sensory stuff, but if there is sensory stuff then I think it does matter with spelling.  Because it is one of those things where if you need input to learn, but little input doesn’t register or the motor skills aren’t there to perform them, then ——— there is need to adapt to get the practice.  

[Lecka]

Yay for asking for breaks!!!!! That is huge, and So Helpful!!!!!!!!!!

[Lecka]

Is his dysgraphia more written expression, or is it more handwriting?

For my older son it is handwriting and trouble developing automatic letter formation, so if your son has more written expression, it may not be the same kind of thing.  

[Dmmetler]

What I have is cards with the phonograms, taped to recyclables. So, I’ll say the sound, he’ll find the sound, he’ll shoot the sound, knocking it over, and he’ll usually jump around for awhile “I got /a/!!”. For words, say the word, chunk the sound, spell the word by shooting the phonograms in order, etc. 

I’ve also used it for “find all the /letter/“-especially for those hard ones like a and g where the font makes a difference, or for finding easily confused words. 

It’s a nice break between writing activities or anything that requires more focus, and he doesn’t seem to realize that we’re still doing that hated reading/spelling that he is convinced he can’t do. 

 

For Apples and Pears, I use my chalkboards and HWoT stuff a lot-making it bigger and doing the wet-dry-try seems to be a good early step before trying to do it in the workbook. We also write on the sidewalk and erase each letter with a squirt gun, paint letters and words with water, etc. And we often do the same lesson in Apples and Pears in different colored pencils, getting it gradually better and automatic.That seems to make it more palatable. 

 

 

 

[Lecka]

So many great idea!  

I'm gearing up to start AAS 1 with my younger son, sometime this summer.  

But I know he has trouble segmenting so I will be focusing my efforts that way.  

He can spell CVC words, and he can segment CVC words.  After that he has trouble segmenting, and he makes mistakes that I think are based in segmenting.  I think he is ready to learn more and make progress, though.

Anyway right now I am mentally planning to do some gentle (lots of help from me) oral segmenting first, and then pull-down with tiles, but after he has already had exposure to segmenting those words, and then fun writing.  Will see how it goes, but that's what I am thinking right now.

 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Lecka said:

Is his dysgraphia more written expression, or is it more handwriting?

For my older son it is handwriting and trouble developing automatic letter formation, so if your son has more written expression, it may not be the same kind of thing.  

I was reading an article about dysgraphia. Everyone agrees it is, but no one has explained why. The OT blames spelling, the psych blames the SLD (which means they're saying more OT) and so on. No, his writing is not automatic. The psych was flabbergasted how hard it was for him, and that's all she works with is kids with disabilities. That's why I'm getting the Visual/Spatial Portals book, because I want to go through it thoroughly and see if there's anything physical to explain it, like a reflex that got missed. It really comes across like some combination of developmental delay plus a physical glitch (like a reflex) plus a disability. So for the first two, saying to suck it up isn't really appropriate. Our ABA people tried and stopped. So I want to address that. He's writing for himself in small amounts, which I think is a sign that we've gotten SOMETHNG connecting a little better. But that doesn't mean we should go from that to requiring two pages a day. I don't know. I'm hoping I find something in VSP that makes it feel ok to require a bit more. Right now it would be dicy. Half a page would be ok.

[PeterPan]

46 minutes ago, dmmetler said:

What I have is cards with the phonograms, taped to recyclables. So, I’ll say the sound, he’ll find the sound, he’ll shoot the sound, knocking it over, and he’ll usually jump around for awhile “I got /a/!!”. For words, say the word, chunk the sound, spell the word by shooting the phonograms in order, etc. 

I’ve also used it for “find all the /letter/“-especially for those hard ones like a and g where the font makes a difference, or for finding easily confused words. 

It’s a nice break between writing activities or anything that requires more focus, and he doesn’t seem to realize that we’re still doing that hated reading/spelling that he is convinced he can’t do. 

 

For Apples and Pears, I use my chalkboards and HWoT stuff a lot-making it bigger and doing the wet-dry-try seems to be a good early step before trying to do it in the workbook. We also write on the sidewalk and erase each letter with a squirt gun, paint letters and words with water, etc. And we often do the same lesson in Apples and Pears in different colored pencils, getting it gradually better and automatic.That seems to make it more palatable. 

Haha, right now you have way more energy than me! (I'm coming off bronchitis, sigh.) You're right, my vision for A&P was extremely small. I just thought I'd read from the tm and he'd write something, lol. Yes, multi-sensory is more where he is. So if you're repeating A&P lessons, do you photocopy? You got a pdf file? You just do it onto other paper?

That shooting idea still cracks me up. 

[PeterPan]

26 minutes ago, Lecka said:

So many great idea!  

I'm gearing up to start AAS 1 with my younger son, sometime this summer.  

But I know he has trouble segmenting so I will be focusing my efforts that way.  

He can spell CVC words, and he can segment CVC words.  After that he has trouble segmenting, and he makes mistakes that I think are based in segmenting.  I think he is ready to learn more and make progress, though.

Anyway right now I am mentally planning to do some gentle (lots of help from me) oral segmenting first, and then pull-down with tiles, but after he has already had exposure to segmenting those words, and then fun writing.  Will see how it goes, but that's what I am thinking right now.

 

It seems like at that level the little basic spelling games wold go a long way. Come to think of it, we haven't played those. I own several but you're right we hadn't played them. It just wasn't developmentally appropriate. But now it might be kinda fun.

[Lecka]

http://www.handwriting-solutions.com/dysgraphia.asp

This is something I was shown for dysgraphia, the OT thought my older son had a mix of dyslexic, spatial, and phonological.  Fun times.  

You really can separate out different purposes of handwriting.  

For my son, at a certain point he could copy single words well, and have nicely formed letters.  

He could copy some things, but it's like -- if he was copying and engaging his thoughts of "here's the letters I'm copying, I'm sounding it out as I write it," then he can't copy nicely.  If he is copying more than a word and it looks nice, then he is just copying as if he were copying shapes, he isn't engaging his "I'm writing words, I'm engaging with the letters and their sounds, I'm engaging with the meanings of the words I write, I'm engaging with the structure of the sentence I write."  He CAN do that, but his handwriting will be bad.  But he can (at this point) have the engagement, which I do think is really good to have and a benefit in learning.  

But there's a lot of mixed messages with wanting it to look good, or wanting it to benefit him.  

Anyway -- I think really think about your purpose, for any writing.  

There are different purposes that are all put together as one when people talk about benefits of writing, but they can be separated out, and then for each one, a different alternative might make sense.  

I think part of it is, if you think about writing with a pencil on paper, and assume it will bring x and y benefits, well, it might not bring those benefits if the child isn't engaged the way kids are supposed to be engaged to get those benefits.  

And for my son at least, if he's not engaged on that level, he gets nothing from it.  It is a true waste of time.  Yet he can have a product that implies he has experienced a level of engagement.  But it's not the case.  

That was my biggest misconception, I think, thinking that writing with pencil and paper would mean something.  It may not mean as much as it is "supposed" to mean, if it has been done really mindlessly or with an effort just to write less or not use any hard words.  That is the opposite of what I want to happen, but it is a perverse incentive at times.   

 

 

[PeterPan]

Yes, that's why I haven't pursued it hard, because it didn't seem like doing that was going to create the *effect* that it was supposed to create. But I thought the spelling approach (phonograms + morphology) really had some logic to it. I think that kind of analysis and spiral could be good with him.

[Lecka]

You can definitely adapt as needed, when you think the approach looks good for him.  

If you see him not fill the papers out productively, you can take the content of the papers and adapt it so that he does the same stuff but with a form that will be good for him.  

There are a lot of ways to still have letter formations, without using pencil/paper.  And, there's ways to bypass letter formation, too -- letter tiles, typing, pointing (if you want to write something right and wrong and he chooses what is correct, that is an option; or if you write but sometimes makes mistakes he finds).  There are a lot of options and you can practice the same content multiple ways, as well.  You can end with pencil/paper if that works for him after a long introduction to the content -- that could work for my son a lot of times with spelling.  

[Lecka]

Just to be clear, if you have a dysgraphia diagnosis and it is at all handwriting related, I think you are going to need to adapt ANY spelling curriculum.

Tiles are good, but you can adapt any spelling curriculum to use tiles as helpful (whether this is as a first step, or whether it is for practice, or whether it is mixed in, could just depend).

Anyway -- it's just one of those things, you will need to adapt, and you will need to watch and see what is productive.  

And I think circle back and try different things, because something that doesn't work now could be perfect 6 months from now or a year from now, and what is out of reach now could be in reach later.  

But plan to adapt and bring in effective and/or preferred and/or engaging methods.  

So if you like a program, you CAN adapt it, and you probably need to adapt anything anyway, so if you think something looks good, there's no reason to think it needs to be followed exactly or that there is a more appropriate program just because it uses some technique (like using color, colored pencils, tiles, etc).  

And then you may be able to do pencil and paper as a step, or maybe not.  Or you may be able to do a small amount of pencil and paper a day.  You just have to see.  

But alternate means of letter formation or writing that is not done with pencil and paper are still totally worthwhile and are providing the same function, even if they are not pencil and paper.  

Just make sure you are not adapting away a key part of the program as far as what needs to be learned, and it will be fine.  

[Dmmetler]

If you use fairly light colored pencils, you can do the same lesson in the book and have it be visible (and be able to see where successive attempts got better). I assume you could make copies as well, but it works well to repeat each one X days (or parts for X days) by having each day have a color. 

 

I will also say-it helps that I only have him for 2 hours at a time :). It’s a lot easier to be “on” and to come up with the creative stuff when I get a lot of downtime. He’s my only current student (except for my preschool music/LWoT group) that requires that much gross motor :).

I will say I’m glad I’m not teaching him in a public school setting-all the “I did it!! I killed SAT!! Now I’m going to kill C—-A——-T!!!” Probably wouldn’t go over well...

 

[Lecka]

You could maybe throw things to knock the recyclables over, and not have the gun.  But Nerf guns are so much more fun!

[ElizabethB]

Don Potter has years of experience teach cursive, here are his handwriting videos:

And, here is how to teach Blend Phonics in cursive:

http://www.donpotter.net/pdf/blend_phonics_stories_cursi.pdf

And, spelling rules organized by Blend Phonics unit:

http://www.donpotter.net/pdf/blend_phonics_spelling_rule.pdf

More handwriting from Don Potter:

http://www.donpotter.net/education_pages/11gth.html

 

[ktgrok]

We just started using Traditional Spelling 1 from Memoria Press, we are on week 6, and I'm impressed. It sorts words by sound, and has them do various things to help that stick. Some lessons might have a bit more writing than he could do but you could split those ones up into two days. Day 2 of each week is a bit more writing, so that day I'd suggest dividing up maybe. Or if you do it all in one day having you scribe for the first part, where you sort the words, MIGHT work, and then him write the second part where you go over it in colors. But really, writing them is one way they learn them, so having you scribe might backfire. We did get the extra practice book as well and some weeks take a day to have her do that as well. Doing all this she is making perfect scores, which is blowing my mind.

And it's all workbook, which you said you like. And reasonable cost and they have a 60 day money back guarantee. https://www.memoriapress.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Spelling-I-Student-Sample.pdf

[8filltheheart]

I didn't read through all of the responses, but I agree with AimeeM's response.   I have used A&P with 3 of my kids (2 dyslexics and 1 who struggled with spelling).  I have always broken down the lessons into much smaller chunks bc some of the lessons require quite a bit of writing.  No advice in terms of how to help with making the books work for your ds, though.

But, my main reason for responding was your question about SRA.  I alos purchased SRA when my worst dyslexic finished with the D A&P book.  Definitely would suggest NOT purchasing SRA.  It is expensive and essentially no different from A&P.  I didn't even see any progression to more complex words.

[MistyMountain]

I am not sure Apples and Pear is the best for what you describe. It is a lot of writing for my child so I had to break a lesson up into one page a day. You could add to it with the things you mention but a big part of it is writing it down with less help from as time goes on. It is a little more visual then straight up copying words. That is a major part of the method. It does not have much at all for phonological processing. You could add that to it but then you could just do your own thing  anyway. I did not need the phonological processing aspect for the child I am using it with. 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, MistyMountain said:

I am not sure Apples and Pear is the best for what you describe. It is a lot of writing for my child so I had to break a lesson up into one page a day. You could add to it with the things you mention but a big part of it is writing it down with less help from as time goes on. It is a little more visual then straight up copying words. That is a major part of the method. It does not have much at all for phonological processing. You could add that to it but then you could just do your own thing  anyway. I did not need the phonological processing aspect for the child I am using it with. 

Thanks, I think that's where I was going in my mind. I had some combo of mother guilt and wistfulness, like maybe if I did something, anything, he would do better in xyz area. But as y'all talked through the issues I realized the way we've been doing things (games, AAS lessons, facilitating for his personal projects) is probably hitting where he's at and maxing out what he's ready for. I think I'm just gonna keep going with AAS, bring in more spelling games, see if I can input some lists to Spelling City to get a bit extra there if I can, and then bring in a handwriting workbook that I have for a small amount daily. I think he can do a small amount, but I think more would be frustrating. I think tying his spelling to handwriting would actually hold him back at this point. Writing isn't going to be his functional output method, so connecting it to spelling isn't a good use of our time. He just needs to write a small amount daily, and the handwriting workbook will do for that.

We've done all or most of the Spelling Success games. I think I might just do some regular kid games with him like Scrabble or something, I don't know.

[Guest]

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[PeterPan]

Well of course, we've always separated them. It was only a question of what this particular curriculum is trying to do and whether it's sensible to do that with this particular one. But no, I've always separate things and moved forward. I didn't notice his exact scores, but the psych who did his achievement testing this spring said his spelling scores were fine, which meant they must not have been too bad. They certainly aren't the cause of his not writing. He's diagnosed with dysgraphia and it's just plain wicked hard. I'm just always looking for options to do things better. 

Right now, he writes small amounts for pleasure, and I'm not willing for ANYTHING to get in the way of that. I totally backed off handwriting even, because I wanted to reclaim his enjoyment of writing for his own personal use. We've done some OT, where she said the same thing, to back off on writing and to focus on drawing, doodling, etc. She also wanted us to make sure we were stepping it up with spelling (commented on it), and I thought ok, am I doing all I CAN do for him with spelling. That's where I thought I'd look at these other programs and see what my options were. Personally, I just don't think he was ready before. He's ready now and notices it. I think I want to handle it like you would a k5er and just do games and take it slowly. He's already had exposure to all the pieces (suffixes, prefixes, all the rules, etc.). He just didn't have a reason to care because he wasn't developmentally ready.

I guess that's how you get a good case of mother guilt, when things are crunchy and people imply it's because you don't teach him well enough, mercy. The psych didn't think that, but the OT wanted to go there in her mind. Apparently his achievement testing was good enough. What we actually did this year for spelling, as unconventional as it sounds, is word searches. They don't take a ton of fine motor, are good for vision, and they get you noticing parts of words. It may be why he's spelling adequately for the achievement testing. That won't be enough long-term, probably, but we really did a lot of them, several a day, several books and grade levels worth in a sequence.

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[Guest]

Oh, apologies! I didn't have the time to read all the posts and I didn't realize it had been mentioned. I'll delete my previous posts.

[8filltheheart]

Word searches help my dyslexics a lot.

One OT exercise that might work with your ds is disappearing words.  You could write out a word in a mix of letters and have him see if he can find the word and trace over the word.  Something debdeebdedbedbdb If you write in permanent marker on foil, the letters will disappear if he traces over them in dry erase board marker.  

[caedmyn]

Haven't read the responses, but if he likes workbooks maybe something like Megawords would work?  It's mostly writing single words but you would still probably want to scribe for him if he's doing an entire page.