Help to get kid to write

[Feliciadian]

I hope this is ok to put here. Someone recommended this page to me. I need suggestions for my 8 year old. She HATES to write. (I almost wish there was a stronger word for hate to use here actually) I have watched her stare at the wall for an hour to keep from writing a three word sentence. (Stubborn is an issue also, can you tell?) I have seen great improvements in her abilities this year, but I’m so drained with the daily fight. She is a very tactical learner. She prefers hands on, energy burning activities. Any suggestions? Writing games? Writing crafts? Help!

[Stibalfamily]

How about this? https://www.rainbowresource.com/proddtl?id=WRTADV

[Feliciadian]

That looks great!!! Have you ever tried it? I will definitely look into that. Thank you!

[Stibalfamily]

7 minutes ago, Feliciadian said:

That looks great!!! Have you ever tried it? I will definitely look into that. Thank you!

I have been eyeing it for years, but no its just too expensive and I can't justify it. Maybe next year.  Another much cheaper idea is Rory's Story Cubes. https://www.rainbowresource.com/searchspring/?q=story+cubes

[Feliciadian]

That is exactly what I was looking for! Something fun and not a “scary” piece of paper. This will trick her into writing! Thank you so so so much!

[Stibalfamily]

I have a seven year old that hate's to write too. I sympathize with you. These things are for creative writing, not opinion, narrative or expository writing. I just let my son pick the topic and we work through them together. Have you tried Four Square Writing? Maybe if you figured out why she hates writing you could find something that would make her feel successful. 

[TheAttachedMama]

I am not really a make-everything-fun mom.  :)  So perhaps my advice won't be helpful.   (Feel free to ignore.)   

However, I have found that when a child HATES to write, there is usually something that is making it overly difficult for the child.   You could buy a board game or a fancy book, but a lot of times that won't really help address the root cause.  They might enjoy the game, but then still struggle with writing across the curriculum...you know?    (FYI....this audio workshop is VERY helpful and I highly recommend it:  https://welltrainedmind.com/a/a-plan-for-teaching-writing-focus-on-elementary/)

There are lots of individual skills that go into writing, and one of these might need a little bit of remediation:

1)  Forming abstract thoughts into words:   Some kids have trouble putting their vague thoughts into specific words.  For example, if you read the child a short story, could they orally summarize the story or "tell it back" (in their own words) using complete sentences?   If you ask them a question about something (book, story, movie), could they orally answer the question in a complete sentence?  Is their speech typically grammatically correct?  Do they ever struggle to tell you about their day or about something that happened?   You mentioned that your child might stare at the wall for 3 hours instead of writing down a three-word sentence, right?  Would she be able to verbally tell you the sentence she wants to write or does she struggle with coming up with the right words?   These are all clues to let you know they might have trouble forming their thoughts into words.   If this is the problem, the best way to remediate this skill is through LOTS of oral narration and oral composition.   Read her short passages and have her give you an oral narration.  (Where she tells the story back to you in her own words using complete sentences.)   Instead of writing answers or sentences, have her practice orally answering the questions in complete sentences.

2)  The physical act of writing:    Some kids have a problem with the physical act of writing.   Does her hand tire easily when she writes a word?   You mentioned she has a problem coming up with her own sentence, but how does she do with copywork?  Can she easily copy a sentence (or a paragraph) or does she complain about this too?   These are all signs that there is something breaking down with this component of writing.  She might have a learning challenge such as dysgraphia.  (That might be something to rule out.)   She might not be holding the pencil correctly or forming letters efficiently.  (This can cause your hand to fatigue quickly.)   OR, she might just need more practice with copywork.   Those small hand muscles are just like any other muscle, you have to slowly train them through repeated practice to become stronger.  Start with short pieces of copywork (words or sentences or poems from her books, etc.) and gradually make the passages she can copy longer until it becomes easier.    (You can also teach the child to type.)

3)  Memory Issues:   In order to write, you have to be able to hold sentences in your mind long enough to get them onto the page.    If you say a sentence, could she repeat it back to you?   How about two sentences or three?   How does she do with dictation?   If you say a sentence, could she WRITE the sentence down on paper?  (Or would you have to repeat it many times?)   If this is the problem, you might want to do some dictation practice.  (This typically comes after copywork has become easy.)  

4)  Spelling:  For a lot of kids, they simply don't know how to spell enough words to actually write anything.  They get hung up on not knowing how to spell what they want to say, and this becomes a roadblock to getting their thoughts on the page.    The best thing to do here is either become a human spelling dictionary.  Stay at the elbow and spell aloud any words they need help with.  -or-  Just stick with copywork and oral composition until they make more progress in a spelling program before you expect them to generate content.

5)  Content:   Some people have trouble generating unique content and ideas.   Asking them to write a story or even an original sentence is nearly impossible for them.   Andrew Pudewa has an excellent talk on this called "Nurturing Competent Communicators".   He basically makes the point that you can't expect children to output what isn't already in their minds already.    The best way to solve this problem is to surround the kid with language:   Read aloud to the child in copious amounts.   Listen to lots of great audiobooks.   Try to involve the child in deep discussions.  Talk about the books you read or movies you watch together.   Memorize and recite poetry.  etc. etc.   

ETA:  

For specific recommendations, we got on a weekly schedule that included lots of oral narration, copywork, read alouds, poetry memorization, and dictation.  We also practiced penmanship and spelling.   I didn't really expect my child to generate unique content at that age.    We saved that until they were older.  :)   

We used English Lessons Through Literature.  (I would probably start your child at level b) and All About Spelling.

You could also use Writing with Ease and First Langauge Lessons plus a spelling program of your choice.  (That program also includes a nice schedule or narration, copywork, and dictation.)   

IEW is also another thing that works great for reluctant writers.   

I hope that helps some!

[PeterPan]

On May 30, 2018 at 10:48 PM, Feliciadian said:

I hope this is ok to put here. Someone recommended this page to me. I need suggestions for my 8 year old. She HATES to write. (I almost wish there was a stronger word for hate to use here actually) I have watched her stare at the wall for an hour to keep from writing a three word sentence. (Stubborn is an issue also, can you tell?) I have seen great improvements in her abilities this year, but I’m so drained with the daily fight. She is a very tactical learner. She prefers hands on, energy burning activities. Any suggestions? Writing games? Writing crafts? Help!

Have you tried scribing for her to isolate whether the problem is the actual physical act of writing or the language or the organization of the thoughts or the generation of the content or what? Just saying she hates writing doesn't tell you *why*. My dd was incredibly pencil-phobic at that age. If I scribed for her, plenty came out. Turned out she had developmental vision issues that needed vision therapy. She also had some retained reflexes, weak core muscles, and other things that were making the physical act of writing hard. We did OT for them. She also has ADHD and needed some work with working memory and Executive Function to make it easier for her to organize and get her thoughts out. We did a metronome work (which you can learn about over on LC) and brought in digit spans, finally got her typing, and around 7th it all came together. Now she writes very well! She uses accommodations in college, because of her ADHD. She gets extended time, needs to use tech for everything (seldom/never writes by hand), etc. 

Sometimes it helps to view behavior as communication and figure out what she's trying to tell you. When my dd was that age, she couldn't say she had developmental vision problems, ADHD, and needed EF supports. However once I had all the words, we were able to get her to a better place. Now in college she participates in writing clubs! If you could see my back posts from 10 years ago, I NEVER would have thought we'd get there. 

Best things you can do right now? Well you asked for more fun options to get her writing. If You're Trying to Teach Kids How to Write . . . Revised Edition: You've Gotta Have This Book! (Ip, 62-5) That might be to your taste. I'm getting ready to do it with my ds. He has language issues, so he needs more bake time. Your dd would be about right for it. Also look at fun writing. Listography Journal: Your Life in Lists  My dd did some recipe writing around that age. If they can do writing connected to their interests, that can work. She might find the shorter chunks of writing like in the project at this link would work for her https://mindwingconcepts.com/blogs/news/46846209-expository-my-research-cut-and-fold-booklet  If she likes that, also consider the Michael Gravois books. You can probably get them as ebooks. 

You might also play games with language to see how she does. Have you ever seen Dixit ? Also try Outset Media - Pickles to Penguins Family Card Game - Quick Thinking, Crazy Picture Connection, Matching Game (Ages 8+) or Tell Tale Card Game  (I don't have this one but would like it) or Tall Tales Story Telling Board Game - The Family Game of Infinite Storytelling - 5 Ways to Play  

For curriculum, she's also a good age to consider Writing Tales 1.

It may be that her working memory is low and that she's losing her thoughts when she tries to write them or retell them. So when you bring in supports like Inspiration software, mapping, graphic organizers, the Story Grammar Marker tool (HIGHLY recommended), etc. you're giving her some structure to help her stay on track. You can play games to build her working memory. We didn't have my dd eval'd for ADHD and get full psych evals until she was 12. I felt HORRIBLE, looking back, that I had not realized I was seeing things like low processing speed, low working memory, and poor word retrieval. For the record, my dd is incredibly bright. She did 300 and 400 level classes this year as a freshman and did very well on her papers. She just happens to have disabilities and need supports. So me, I'm one to recommend evals early and often. They can save a lot of heartbreak. But yeah, if you're not game for evals, play games for working memory, play games with language, scribe for her, keep it real. 

[Ellie]

On 5/30/2018 at 9:48 PM, Feliciadian said:

I hope this is ok to put here. Someone recommended this page to me. I need suggestions for my 8 year old. She HATES to write. (I almost wish there was a stronger word for hate to use here actually) I have watched her stare at the wall for an hour to keep from writing a three word sentence. (Stubborn is an issue also, can you tell?) I have seen great improvements in her abilities this year, but I’m so drained with the daily fight. She is a very tactical learner. She prefers hands on, energy burning activities. Any suggestions? Writing games? Writing crafts? Help!

Personally, I wouldn't fight with her. And I wouldn't let her sit for an hour for anything.

What are you using to teach her to write? 

 

[Feliciadian]

Ladies thank y’all so much for all this great information and will listen to the audio workshop and look into the books and games. We are doing Literature through Language Arts. Learning disabilities were a concern for me, so I’ve had her eyes checked and talked to a counselor and ruled out dyslexia and I’ve known she most likely has ADD. I’ve learned that my daughter is also very stubborn and very “fun” motivated. Twice this week when I’ve had fun play dates planned she has gotten up (BEFORE ME!) and finished her writing assignments!!! One day she accidentally did two days! Craziest part is she did the assignment with little to no errors. This shows me she CAN do it. She just doesn’t like to be bored. The topic of memory touched me though and that’s surely something I will work on her with. She does seem to ask for me to say the words for her to write. She is great with telling me back stories (as that’s a part of LLA) and she has a very creative mind. Im excited to finally have new ideas to try and things to look for. Thank you guys so very much!

[PeterPan]

Good stuff! Yeah, if you've gotten to ADHD, that's half the battle. Then start reading about executive function. My dd would balk or go into hyper-condensed mode if the task was too easy or she didn't see the point. It sounds like she responds well to structure and clear expectations. Like that where she could wake up and work without you, that was a lot of structure, something she could do independently. My dd is like that, AMAZINGLY FAST when she's engaged. It's really a strength to roll with where you can, because it's sort of their ADHD superpower. 

[PeterPan]

Btw, have you seen the Mrs. Renz 4th grade book projects? She used to have them all free, and now I think she has a TeachersPayTeachers store. That's fine. They were really good, really creative and fun when you needed to freshen up the old summarize/narrate on a book thing. We did them around that 3rd/4th grade age, so either this year or next they might work for you. 

Sometimes tapping that creativity can be really good. When we did the Strongs Interest Inventory on my dd, turned out she was 1/3 entreprenuerial, 1/3 social, 1/3 creative. So she's going business in the HR track and doing stuff in the theatre. And when she was a child, it showed up all along in her sewing, in her need to create, in her pleasure in being creative in her work, etc. WTM doesn't really emphasize that, but my two cents is what you're seeing is really what they are and what you should roll with.

[TheAttachedMama]

On 6/1/2018 at 8:25 PM, Feliciadian said:

Ladies thank y’all so much for all this great information and will listen to the audio workshop and look into the books and games. We are doing Literature through Language Arts. Learning disabilities were a concern for me, so I’ve had her eyes checked and talked to a counselor and ruled out dyslexia and I’ve known she most likely has ADD. I’ve learned that my daughter is also very stubborn and very “fun” motivated. Twice this week when I’ve had fun play dates planned she has gotten up (BEFORE ME!) and finished her writing assignments!!! One day she accidentally did two days! Craziest part is she did the assignment with little to no errors. This shows me she CAN do it. She just doesn’t like to be bored. The topic of memory touched me though and that’s surely something I will work on her with. She does seem to ask for me to say the words for her to write. She is great with telling me back stories (as that’s a part of LLA) and she has a very creative mind. Im excited to finally have new ideas to try and things to look for. Thank you guys so very much!

4

One of the great things about homeschooling is that you actually have the time to address specific character issues like you described above.   You are in the "thick of it" day in and day out, and you get to see first hand how your child responds and reacts to various life circumstances.   (For example, being asked to do something that they may not like to do.)    Assuming you are not asking too much**** of your child, I think a wonderful gift that you can give your child is to teach them that they don't have to avoid doing difficult things and they don't need to fear challenges. 

Let me share a personal story:    I used to be caught in the trap of making everything fun.   Everything my kids did had to be game or "fun" so that they would want and choose to do the work.   If they complained or avoided school work, it became my problem to fix.   I would spend hours (and lots of mental energy) trying to make their school work entertaining and fun.  That is exhausting and hard to maintain for the long haul.    And all of the complainings can really dampen morale for both the kids and the mama.  It is really difficult to remain an enthusiastic teacher when complaining and grumbling is the norm.    And kids who build up these huge walls of resistance to challenge are not usually very happy either.   They are often filled with negative self-talk (telling themselves things like "I can't!" or "It's not fair!" or "It's too hard!").  And they often spend all day being unhappy about various things instead of just learning to face obstacles head-on.   (Picture the kid who spends all day crying about cleaning up their room when the whole task might have only taken 20 minutes.  They miss out on hours of playing outside and doing fun things just because they have built up this false wall of "I can't!")  

In the end, I realized that I was sort of doing my children a real disservice in life!   You know, ideally, my end goal was to raise resilient adults.   I know first hand that life is full of challenges, and I didn't want to raise kids who feared hard work or challenge or obstacles in life.   By making everything fun and into a game, I was, in effect, stealing away a lot of teachable moments.   (This is one of my favorite articles on this topic:      Is Learning Fun?)  

I was trying to save them from hardships, but I was inadvertently robbing my children of some key opportunities to build confidence....to be able to say to themselves without doubt, "I can do hard things!"   

That isn't to say that life has to be ALL hard work and all drudgery.  I think another key life skill is learning to make hard work and things we don't want to do more pleasing.   And this is another life skill I think is REALLY important to teach and model to a child.   Whether they set up small, more attainable goals with their school work:  "I'm going to work hard on this copywork and do my best for 10 minutes, then I will be finished."  Or if they find a way to make the work more fun: "I'm going to put on some fun music while I pick up my toys to make the job more enjoyable."  or "I'm going to listen to this audiobook while I do the dishes."  

SO---assuming you have ruled out any learning challenges and are being reasonable in your expectations****, I think it is important to teach kids that they don't have to avoid obstacles in life.  Teach them not to fear "work" or challenges.   Teach them that it is their job to find ways to make work more enjoyable.    The real joy in learning comes from reading interesting books, thinking deep thoughts, discussing interesting ideas, marveling at the wonders of science, or solving a difficult math puzzle/problem.   

And, practically speaking,  I also would not allow a kid to sit at the table refusing to write a sentence for an hour.   I don't think that encourages a healthy work ethic, and it just re-enforces all of that negative self-talk in their head.  You are in a sense, helping them build up that wall of resistance.    NORMALLY-- it is usually a sign that they need some remediation in a few foundational skills.   If you can make those foundational skills easy, then the work does become more fun!   

However, if you suspect that they have fallen into the "only if it is entertaining" trap, gently and lovingly teach them another way.   In our house, I will not enter into a battle of the wills over school work.   I would calmly explain that education is a WONDERFUL privilege.   If they don't want to do their school work, that is their choice.   But they aren't going to sit around idle all day.   If they aren't going to do their lessons, they can instead choose to deep clean the bathrooms and the toilet, mop the floors, vacuum the sofa, etc.   (At our house, there is always a lot of work to be done in one form or another.  And all of it helps teach kids important life skills.)   Hint:  if a kid would rather clean toilets than do their school work, that is a DEFINITE sign that something is very wrong and they might need to go back and strengthen some foundations skills in that particular subject or what you are asking is too hard for their particular level!   

Again, I know that my personal views are VERY counter-culture.   Lots of people might disagree with me on this forum...and that is totally fine.  :) :)    So please feel free to disregard my opinions if they aren't helpful.   I'm just sharing some realizations I have had along the journey and some lessons I wish I would have learned much sooner.    Once we moved past the expectations that I needed to entertain them and make everything fun, our relationship has actually improved...AND...believe it or not, we actually enjoy learning so much more.    My kids look forward to most of their subjects and enjoy the process of learning.  We have our bumps along the way, but we are much happier now.  :)

-----------------------

****This is a really important point that I want to clarify.   I am going to assume you aren't asking the child to do something developmentally inappropriate when it comes to writing.  According to the classical model of education, kids this age are not really expected to generate original content without MANY, MANY stages of scaffolded instruction.   There are many hours spent working on penmanship, pencil grip, "oral composition" with the parent scribing their thoughts, copywork, narration, transcription, dictation, outlining source text, learning the basics of English grammar, re-writing fables or other simple source text, etc. etc. etc.   There is very little original writing generated in early elementary.   This is VERY different from what the public schools are doing.   (Where you have kindergartners, who barely know how to spell or form letters, are being asked to keep journals!)   So it might take a mind shift, but I can promise you, the classical method is tried and true and does produce great results.   

[PeterPan]

My dd did the sit at her computer/table/desk with nothing coming out thing. When we finally got evals, yes she had straight ADHD (which the op has already figured out is probably a piece), but she also had astonishingly low processing speed and poor word retrieval, like clinically low, just like what you expect with my ds who is diagnosed with autism and apraxia. When I got that info, I felt bad I had not understood in order to temper my firm expectations with an understanding of how difficult, clinically difficult, certain things were.

Yes to scaffolding, but my two cents is evals. As someone who waited (it's only ADHD, blah blah), I'm saying we learned a lot. She's actually doing fresh evals right now with a psych, even as a college student, because there's more to learn, more support to get. Evals, evals, evals. Information is your friend. Information helps you make wise decisions and bring in those supports and bring in that scaffolding. Sometimes we don't realize what supports they need, because we don't have the data to get us there. Evals get you that data.