No, you don't have to hug her (and what are parents thinking!!!!) rant

[Ann.without.an.e]

So, we had the oddest occurrence standing in line at Starbucks in Target the other day.  This lady tapped my son on the back and said in an aggressive voice "where's my hug?!?!?".  We both just sort of stared at her because we were completely confused.  Did we know this woman?  No, we did not.  She proceeded to say "I want a hug!".  DS just sort of stared at her and she opened her hand and it had a quarter in it.  He wasn't honestly sure what to do but she seemed to want him to take it so he, hesitantly, slowly started to move his hand toward her and she jerked it back and said "ugh, how terrible, wanting to take my quarter without a hug!!!!"  And she walked away.  I really just moved on and continued with my order. DD took DS to the bathroom and I watched as this lady came up and did this to two more kids.  Now, these moms had an advantage because they weren't ordering yet so they weren't completing facing a counter like I was.  They understood what she was doing and said (even though their kids were obviously hesitant), "give her a hug and thank her for the quarter". (ETA - We are in the south and I am from the south, I get that we aren't supposed to be so untrusting of people and we aren't supposed to offend others).  I know my child, I could tell he felt guilty.  His mind was saying, "oh she was just a nice lady who wanted to give me a quarter and I wasn't nice back".  So I was quick to get into the car and tell him that she had no right to a hug, that she seemed aggressive and manipulative, and that he owed no one hugs.  But inside all I could think was, "what the hell just happened?"

That's all.  Rant over.

[Carol in Cal.]

Wow, that is really weird.

[scrapbookbuzz]

Strange. And inappropriate. Tell your ds he has nothing to feel guilty about. No one owes a stranger a hug, ever. And the dark side of my mind is 
sounding alarm bells of "grooming", "human trafficking", "abduction", etc. God willing, this won't happen to your kids ever again but NOW is the time to
prep them for it. Tell them something like, "should anyone act this way towards you again, you have every right to look them in the eye and loudly state, 'Do I know you??' "
If they say anything at all, if it's "no" then he can say, "I don't give strangers hugs." If they say, "Of course, I know (your mom, dad, whomever)", your kiddo still has the 
right to say, "But I don't know you. Have a nice day." and then turn around and walk off. 

[Annie G]

That is weird and not ok at all.  Would the other mom have hugged the lady herself for a quarter? No. Would she have responded differently if it was a man? Probably. But it doesn’t matter. Nobody should expect a stranger to do that. 

[fairfarmhand]

Weird. And I’m from th south and understand the culture. That’s really weird.

[marbel]

That is just awful.  I am not sure Southern politeness covers this sort of thing.  I guess I would start training kids to say "no thank you" and walk off if such a thing ever happened again. (It would never have occurred to me that kids needed to be taught that sort of thing.)

Wondering about the women who let their kid take the quarter and give the hug. 

Was she old and maybe not altogether with it?  I'm not excusing it, just wondering that that's what was going on. 

[happi duck]

That's awful.  That woman seems quite a bit "off".

I don't think forced contact is ever okay not even with grandparents, aunties etc.

[mom@shiloh]

Was the woman mentally disabled?  Even then, I'd never encourage my kids to hug a stranger.  They don't even like to hug people they know and it makes me upset when people insist on hugging. Boundaries, people, boundaries!

[Selkie]

Yikes, how bizarre.

[catz]

Nope!  Kids deserve bodily autonomy and should not be conditioned to take bribes to be touched.  Even if she seems a sweet old quirky lady.  I would have slapped this lady down verbally.  No way.   

ETA - I also would have had a talk to my kid about why he had NO reason to feel bad and he can loudly and proudly say no to anyone who wants to touch him when he doesn't want to be touched.  

[Katy]

Grew up in the South, and it's weird.  I probably would have interrupted my order and loudly said, "Get away from my child!"

[Lady Florida.]

15 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

Weird. And I’m from th south and understand the culture. That’s really weird.

 

15 minutes ago, marbel said:

That is just awful.  I am not sure Southern politeness covers this sort of thing. 

Yeah, I've lived in the south most of my life and still think that's weird. What's even weirder is that she went to other kids and tried the same thing. Sometimes people in line will strike up a conversation, even a conversation with kids, but to go up to other kids and do the same thing is really "off". 

Even in our family, where both sides are big on hugs no matter how old you are or how often you see each other, adults always ask the kids if it's okay to give/get a hug. And the kids are allowed to politely say no. It wasn't always like that. Dh and I both come from a time when children were required to give hugs and kisses to adult family members even if we didn't want to. I'm glad both of our family cultures have changed

[TechWife]

I grew up in the south, live in the south and have never lived anywhere else. Demanding kids to hug you is not a thing, neither is giving money in exchange for a hug. That's just bizarre. Honestly, I'd be tempted to let the police know, if you think you can describe her, just so they are aware that something might be going on there. The only thing I see that makes me not think the kids were in immediate danger is that she approached kids with their parents, not kids by themselves, but even then she could have grabbed them and run with them, so maybe that's not true, either. Just, no.

[Bluegoat]

I'd put it down to some sort of mental issue.  It's pretty far outside of norms.  I'd not really worry about the mom who didn't have much issue with it though, I don't think a hug is actually something to get that worried about, even with the quarter issue.  Lots of people seem to think kids like getting quarters.  I don't really subscribe to the view that says that teaching kids that certain social things are ok or sometimes even expected imperils their ability  to draw a line.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I would suspect early dementia or something of that nature. It would help me to be kind to her even while saying “We don’t hug people we don’t know “. I definitely would have intervened. Not in the way the other ladies did, but by helping to establish a boundary. 

[lavender's green]

I knew a woman with severe mental illness who did odd things like that.

Anyway...great time to discuss boundaries! No one owes anyone hugs.

[Ann.without.an.e]

39 minutes ago, marbel said:

That is just awful.  I am not sure Southern politeness covers this sort of thing.  I guess I would start training kids to say "no thank you" and walk off if such a thing ever happened again. (It would never have occurred to me that kids needed to be taught that sort of thing.)

Wondering about the women who let their kid take the quarter and give the hug. 

Was she old and maybe not altogether with it?  I'm not excusing it, just wondering that that's what was going on. 

 

39 minutes ago, happi duck said:

That's awful.  That woman seems quite a bit "off".

I don't think forced contact is ever okay not even with grandparents, aunties etc.

 

37 minutes ago, mom@shiloh said:

Was the woman mentally disabled?  Even then, I'd never encourage my kids to hug a stranger.  They don't even like to hug people they know and it makes me upset when people insist on hugging. Boundaries, people, boundaries!

 

12 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

I'd put it down to some sort of mental issue.  It's pretty far outside of norms.  I'd not really worry about the mom who didn't have much issue with it though, I don't think a hug is actually something to get that worried about, even with the quarter issue.  Lots of people seem to think kids like getting quarters.  I don't really subscribe to the view that says that teaching kids that certain social things are ok or sometimes even expected imperils their ability  to draw a line.

 

10 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I would suspect early dementia or something of that nature. It would help me to be kind to her even while saying “We don’t hug people we don’t know “. I definitely would have intervened. Not in the way the other ladies did, but by helping to establish a boundary. 

 

 

She wasn't elderly, per se, but she was older. She was black though and I have a hard time telling a black person's age because they hold their age so well ?  DS's hesitancy was not in her race at all, it was in her aggressive manner and the fact that he did not know her at all. She wasn't obviously mentally disabled.  She seemed to be manipulative and she knew exactly what she was doing.  And she can't be doing it to make kids happy because not one of the three kids I saw her approach (including my DS) seemed happy at all about the situation.  They seemed confused and hesitant.  And her voice was aggressive and demanding, not like fun Grandma sort of happy "where's my sweet hug?" but pissed off because you hadn't noticed her and given her a hug yet.  

[Katy]

The more I think about this the weirder it gets.  We don't even make our own kids or nieces & nephews hug us. I might call the police too, non-emergency number.

[Bluegoat]

People with mental issues don't necessarily seem disabled.  Sometimes it's more the lack of boundaries.

[Ann.without.an.e]

2 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

People with mental issues don't necessarily seem disabled.  Sometimes it's more the lack of boundaries.

 

 

True.  I was already thinking of rewording that phrase so I did.  Thanks.

[Lizzie in Ma]

what in the hell?  My youngest would have needed lorazapam if that happened to her. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

4 minutes ago, Lizzie in Ma said:

what in the hell?  My youngest would have needed lorazapam if that happened to her. 

 

I know, right?  Thankfully, this DS doesn't have anxiety or anything but he is a perfectionist who overthinks things and will assume 99% of the time that he was in the wrong.  That is why I was quick to say "hey bud, you did nothing wrong."  In fact, in the line I said to him, "you absolutely don't have to give her a hug and we don't know her".

 

[Ann.without.an.e]

22 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I would suspect early dementia or something of that nature. It would help me to be kind to her even while saying “We don’t hug people we don’t know “. I definitely would have intervened. Not in the way the other ladies did, but by helping to establish a boundary. 

 

I didn't really strongly intervene.  I told him straight away - we don't know her and you don't have to give her a hug at all.  And then we talked about it in the car.  The barista smiled at me when I said that and she said quietly "that lady is always here doing that and I don't like it".

[vonfirmath]

1 hour ago, fairfarmhand said:

Weird. And I’m from th south and understand the culture. That’s really weird.

 

 Agreed. I'm from the South and have never seen anything like that. (strangers wanting hugs and offering quarters for it) I'd be tempted to think it was dementia.

[sweet2ndchance]

I didn't grow up in the south but I have lived in different parts of the south for most of my adult life. I would have been irate. Her actions are so not ok on so many levels. The shift supervisor would have been notified that someone is making me and my child uncomfortable in their store and if nothing was done about it, the police would have been called and a letter written to the store manager. Forced or coerced affection is not affection, it's harrassment at best and non-violent assault at worst.

[Lady Florida.]

33 minutes ago, Attolia said:

 

  The barista smiled at me when I said that and she said quietly "that lady is always here doing that and I don't like it".

Huh. That's interesting that they haven't said anything to her about it. It's possible that someone at either Starbucks or Target knows who she is and knows that she's weird but harmless. 

[Pawz4me]

I would have assumed some degree of mental illness or dementia. I would have shown her some grace but politely extracted my child from the situation. I would have been more concerned for her than upset by her. If I felt the need to call the police in such a situation it would be more of a welfare check for her than fearing she was up to something nefarious.

[prairiewindmomma]

I knew this involved someone Southern.  My thoughts as I read this were, "Kiss my go-to-hell if you think you git to walk on up and ask my kid to give some sugar."  There would have been a scene, and I wouldn't feel bad about the loud shaming that was going to go down.  She knew what she was doing, it was predatory, and  most likely I would have asked for security to be called before I lit into her and canceled her birth certificate.

My bat sh#t crazy great-granny would try this, and she was family.  We don't ask for hugs from people not willing to give them, or guilt them when they don't want to give them, and we certainly don't try to bribe or pay for the privilege of a touch.

[Tanaqui]

Quote

 She wasn't obviously mentally disabled.

 

She was walking around demanding hugs from strangers' children. I mean....

[Bluegoat]

53 minutes ago, Lady Florida. said:

Huh. That's interesting that they haven't said anything to her about it. It's possible that someone at either Starbucks or Target knows who she is and knows that she's weird but harmless. 

 

Yeah.  There is an odd lady who must live near me who always asks people if their kids are boys or girls.  She freaks new moms out a bit.  But it just seems to be a bit of an obsessive activity for her.  

I'm a bit surprised though that if she does this a lot, no one has told her she needs to stop.

[HS Mom in NC]

1 hour ago, Attolia said:

 

I didn't really strongly intervene.  I told him straight away - we don't know her and you don't have to give her a hug at all.  And then we talked about it in the car.  The barista smiled at me when I said that and she said quietly "that lady is always here doing that and I don't like it".

The manager needs to throw her out and call the cops if she shows up again.

[Farrar]

Well, I'll be a weirdo. I've seen something similar before when I was a kid. Lady pulled something similar with my much younger brother. Yes, in the south. I don't remember it that well, just that it was weird. She was white and, to my young teen self, seemed grandmother old. It might have been a nickel that she offered? But inflation.

I haven't thought about that in ages. Definitely one of those, let's move on and pretend that didn't happen moments.

[AimeeM]

4 hours ago, Annie G said:

That is weird and not ok at all.  Would the other mom have hugged the lady herself for a quarter? No. Would she have responded differently if it was a man? Probably. But it doesn’t matter. Nobody should expect a stranger to do that. 

 

We have a heavy homeless population in our area, if you wander into the downtown area. And I would say around 90% of them are noticeably mentally ill -- but typically of the harmless variety (at surface, at least). This wouldn't be an odd occurrence for us at all. 

And, yes, I would hug the woman. And, yes, I would hug a man in a similar situation. 

The entire situation described in the OP reads as a woman who isn't "quite all there," as my grandmother would say. And an awful lot like an old neighbor we had who was suffering from (early onset) dementia. She was absolutely certain, while walking our neighborhood road, that anybody she came across was one of her children -- late for curfew or chores, lol. 

With that said, there is no way in Hades I would make any of my children hug a strange woman, regardless of what I would do myself. And I would make sure my child knew that they had nothing to feel guilty about. It's possible that the other mom in the OP's scenario had seen this woman before and that this wasn't an "out of the blue" for her. 

[I talk to the trees]

5 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I would suspect early dementia or something of that nature. It would help me to be kind to her even while saying “We don’t hug people we don’t know “. I definitely would have intervened. Not in the way the other ladies did, but by helping to establish a boundary. 

 

Dementia was the first thing I thought of as well. Maybe she has moments when she thinks she is talking to her grandkids or something. Still weird, but kind of sad if that's the case. 

[HS Mom in NC]

The problem is behavior like that could happen for a wide range of reasons, including very dangerous ones.  No one here or in that situation is capable of getting to the bottom of what's going on, that requires a medically trained specialist evaluating her.  So law enforcement needs to be called so they can contact who ever it is that handles that kind of thing and if it turns out it's because of some dangerous mental illness or grooming behavior they're already aware of a potential problem.

Whether the woman is a direct threat to the children or not, teaching children it's OK to hug a demanding stranger at all, especially in exchange for gifts/money erodes boundaries, which is psychologically bad for children.

[marbel]

5 hours ago, Attolia said:

 

I didn't really strongly intervene.  I told him straight away - we don't know her and you don't have to give her a hug at all.  And then we talked about it in the car.  The barista smiled at me when I said that and she said quietly "that lady is always here doing that and I don't like it".

Wow.  I wonder if store security keeps an eye on her?   I would think Target wouldn't want people hanging around the store annoying the young moms and kids.  At what point would you stop going to that store if that person accosted your kid every time?  

[Andromeda]

I had a woman try to force hugs from my child at our church. My kid is compliant and wants to be nice. Once it happened when I was too far away to intervene. I had a conversation with my kids and made sure the next time I was right there and not distracted by chatting with anyone.

I put myself bodily between my kids and this woman when she said something about wanting her hugs. She went all weird on me, but I insisted that we don't do hugs. We just don't do hugs. Rinse, repeat. I also noticed that she was singling out my kids. Not cool. She stopped coming to our church, but the whole situation seriously set my creep-oh-meter off.

[Guest]

I didn’t even like forced hugs of my grandmothers when I was a kid. I hated that SO much! One set of grandparents, I barely ever saw (even though I am named after her). They were both heavy smokers and their house and selves stunk like an ashtray. Nevertheless, “Hug your grandmother! Hug your Gandfather!” God How I hated it. My grandmother never even pronounced my first name correctly. It was he same thing as hugging a stranger. 

[Stacia]

6 hours ago, Attolia said:

The barista smiled at me when I said that and she said quietly "that lady is always here doing that and I don't like it".

I think that Starbucks that are in Targets are not really Starbucks stores per se, but more under Target's umbrella. As such, I would contact the manager of the Target you visited & say that something needs to be done to address it. You had it happen to you & saw other people approached & the awkwardness of the interactions. Plus, the barista obviously has seen this person more than once. Maybe the Starbucks workers have said something to management but nothing has happened; however, if customers start saying something maybe they will step up to help resolve the issue. If you get zero response from them, then I would call the non-emergency law enforcement number for that area & talk to someone there. If there is dementia or a mental illness, perhaps management is going to have to step in to redirect her & remind her young people today are taught to be aware of their surroundings & strangers & that she is indeed a stranger to the children she is approaching. Or something.

Not an ok interaction & I find it extremely bizarre -- I have never heard of anything like that.

[poppy]

I had a neighbor kind of like that in college. Definitely mental illness. It was "harmless" and truly no malice was intended, but, it is disconcerting.  Obviously, not OK, but I do think it's so out of bounds I would assume something is not right upstairs with this person.

[TechWife]

14 minutes ago, Stacia said:

I think that Starbucks that are in Targets are not really Starbucks stores per se, but more under Target's umbrella. As such, I would contact the manager of the Target you visited & say that something needs to be done to address it. You had it happen to you & saw other people approached & the awkwardness of the interactions. Plus, the barista obviously has seen this person more than once. Maybe the Starbucks workers have said something to management but nothing has happened; however, if customers start saying something maybe they will step up to help resolve the issue. If you get zero response from them, then I would call the non-emergency law enforcement number for that area & talk to someone there. If there is dementia or a mental illness, perhaps management is going to have to step in to redirect her & remind her young people today are taught to be aware of their surroundings & strangers & that she is indeed a stranger to the children she is approaching. Or something.

Not an ok interaction & I find it extremely bizarre -- I have never heard of anything like that.

 

I don’t think this is an appropriate thing to ask or expect a store manager to address. This is a police matter, they will be able to make any appropriate referrals and they have the authority and the responsibility to keep the public safe. 

[Stacia]

15 minutes ago, TechWife said:

I don’t think this is an appropriate thing to ask or expect a store manager to address. This is a police matter, they will be able to make any appropriate referrals and they have the authority and the responsibility to keep the public safe. 

Maybe. But I am sure that store managers for Target & Starbucks are taught about patron interactions & they do have some knowledge of odd or uncomfortable interactions as they will be the ones dealing with things until police are able to arrive. It's not something I would necessarily think the barista is at the level to address, but management, yes. That's part of what management does in my experience. In many places, management needs to approach the person & politely tell them they are disturbing others or disregarding company policy, ask them to stop or whatever fits the scenario, etc. If, after those steps are done or the person gets belligerent or ignores what they have been asked to do or not do, then that's when typically police are called.

So, at a minimum, I'd be contacting Target's management to make sure they know what is going on in their own location, as well as see if they have already done anything (with or without the police) to try to address the situation.

[gardenmom5]

aggressive and manipulative - and I'd have reported her to the manager.   "the poor dear doesn't realize her behavior is the same as grooming for a predator"  " her family must be worried sick at her behavior."

[gardenmom5]

40 minutes ago, poppy said:

I had a neighbor kind of like that in college. Definitely mental illness. It was "harmless" and truly no malice was intended, but, it is disconcerting.  Obviously, not OK, but I do think it's so out of bounds I would assume something is not right upstairs with this person.

except - it's not "harmless". . . even if that particular person isn't going to take it further, the children are sent the message that that type of behavior is no big deal. . . . next time, it could be someone who isn't "harmless", but the child thinks it's the same.

[marbel]

 

39 minutes ago, Stacia said:

Maybe. But I am sure that store managers for Target & Starbucks are taught about patron interactions & they do have some knowledge of odd or uncomfortable interactions as they will be the ones dealing with things until police are able to arrive. It's not something I would necessarily think the barista is at the level to address, but management, yes. That's part of what management does in my experience. In many places, management needs to approach the person & politely tell them they are disturbing others or disregarding company policy, ask them to stop or whatever fits the scenario, etc. If, after those steps are done or the person gets belligerent or ignores what they have been asked to do or not do, then that's when typically police are called.

So, at a minimum, I'd be contacting Target's management to make sure they know what is going on in their own location, as well as see if they have already done anything (with or without the police) to try to address the situation.

Yep.  Most Target stores I've been in have a security guard. Seems like they would be the first contact; they can call the police and detain the woman till they arrive.  They might also have security camera footage for police to see. 

[poppy]

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

except - it's not "harmless". . . even if that particular person isn't going to take it further, the children are sent the message that that type of behavior is no big deal. . . . next time, it could be someone who isn't "harmless", but the child thinks it's the same.

 

I put it in quotes because of course it's not "harmless". I mean, I was 19 years old, living alone, being approached gruffly for affection by a 50ish year old mentally ill guy. It was weird. And I am sure it would be triggering / upsetting  to some.

At the same time.  This was a guy with a mental problem. Medical issue. He was a neighbor and I got to know him. What can I say.  In his-- warped--- way of thinking, he was not doing anything wrong. I have a great deal of sympathy for people who can't fit in, don't know why, and don't have support.  I wasn't happy about it, had to put up some serious boundaries. But let's be real. It's a lot easier to be the outraged one than to be that guy. I'm sure he was terribly lonely.

[Bluegoat]

16 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

The problem is behavior like that could happen for a wide range of reasons, including very dangerous ones.  No one here or in that situation is capable of getting to the bottom of what's going on, that requires a medically trained specialist evaluating her.  So law enforcement needs to be called so they can contact who ever it is that handles that kind of thing and if it turns out it's because of some dangerous mental illness or grooming behavior they're already aware of a potential problem.

Whether the woman is a direct threat to the children or not, teaching children it's OK to hug a demanding stranger at all, especially in exchange for gifts/money erodes boundaries, which is psychologically bad for children.

 

Yeah, I'm not seeing how this is a dangerous situation for anyone.  It might be that she needs to be evaluated for her own good, though it's entirely possible that she has been and that's why she's allowed to be out and about.  Because what are you going to do, take a harmless person and now tell them they can't go out because they seem nutty?  That would be cruel.

[Bluegoat]

13 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

except - it's not "harmless". . . even if that particular person isn't going to take it further, the children are sent the message that that type of behavior is no big deal. . . . next time, it could be someone who isn't "harmless", but the child thinks it's the same.

                                  

I don't think teaching kids that non-dangerous situations are dangerous protects them.  I think it just makes them scared.  Interacting with a person while your parent is right there isn't dangerous.  

[marbel]

24 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

                                  

I don't think teaching kids that non-dangerous situations are dangerous protects them.  I think it just makes them scared.  Interacting with a person while your parent is right there isn't dangerous.  

 

Yeah.  When my kids were younger and we were out and about during "school hours" people would ask those typical questions ("what, no school today?") I just taught my kids that if I was right there and someone addressed them politely, they should respond, also politely. Of course we went into details about not answering personal questions, not giving personal information, etc.  But saying "oh, we homeschool" to a stranger in the store when I'm standing there with them isn't going to harm them.  We used to do some homeschooling in cafes and occasionally someone would ask what they were reading or doing, they answered for themselves.  Certainly they were never going to be taking anything from anyone and not exchanging hugs for money - that's completely different.

I have been surprised at how many parents, say at the grocery store, frown on any adult interaction with their kids, even smiling and saying hello to a child as we pass in the aisle.  Not sure what it teachers toddlers when mom gives the stink-eye to someone just for saying hello.  (I know this is not the same as the situation in the OP.)

[NormaElle]

8 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

                                  

I don't think teaching kids that non-dangerous situations are dangerous protects them.  I think it just makes them scared.  Interacting with a person while your parent is right there isn't dangerous.  

This isn't fully true. I don't think this situation was grooming, but a lot of grooming behavior takes place in the parents' presence to put the child at ease to be groomed and to groom the parents themselves.

I also wouldn't play down the psychological issues of a child being pressured to exchange physical affection for money, gifts, or approval. It doesn't mean the parent has to or should tell them they were in danger. But it's still very important.