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S/O Hypersexualization of Today's Culture /Media's Impact on Youth Sexuality


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3 hours ago, Liz CA said:

 I've been thinking on this for a while - why are so many young people (I am talking about men in their early twenties) so anxious? I cannot recall that anxiety was so prevalent when I grew up. I may have been anxious about the next math test but there was none of this broad, hard to define anxiety I am hearing about today.?

 

Not dismissing spiritual factors at all, but...

Partially this is a result of the loss of dangerous play, and for that matter, unstructured play at all.  It turns out the jungle gyms and merry go rounds that used to be in every school yard and now are incredibly rare, or games like dodge ball that have been banned, had amazing neurological effects. They help kids learn to regulate fear and figure out what actually is dangerous.  Kids need to jump off big rocks and spin and do things that makes their heart pump a little adrenaline and figure out where their own boundary is and how to know when enough is enough.  There is a direct inverse correlation to levels of dangerous play and the anxiety a child develops.

I'm 39.  When I was in middle school all the parks and elementary schools in my town replaced all their playground equipment with new "safe" stuff.  I know from younger siblings they started banning things like dodge ball or sledding on the hill behind the school during recess.  And they started cutting recess altogether for a while - it went from 3 recesses a day to only the few minutes left of the lunch period for K-3rd grade. Even then kids were super scheduled into adult-approved activities like sports leagues and dance and music lessons.  Those kids had VERY LITTLE self-directed or friend-directed play.  Even in my younger siblings and their friends anxiety went up. 

One of my friends is a preschool director.  It's part of her mission in life to restore outdoor nature play and stuff like playing in streams and jumping off big rocks because the newer science is SO clear it's a need.  She's the one who taught me that for boys especially outdoor physical play should be the main priority at early ages.  She actually thinks unless the child is expressing a strong interest most boys should not do formal academic work at all until they're about 7.

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3 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 Organised was a bad word choice. The dominant ideal. 

The dominant ideal is that you will be affirmed by others in any of your identities. If you are not affirmed, that is an injury. 

 

Hmm. I don't know, I hadn't really thought about that.  I'm not sure if it's what I meant or not.  (That might not be a good sign, but I am just finishing up a bottle of wine, so maybe that's my issue.)

Anyway, what I was thinking is that my observation is is that a lot of young people don't seem to be given any real sense that there is something they need to try and live up to behaviour wise, or much sense of responsibility, or sometimes even an example of what that might look like.  What does a healthy sexual relationship look like - it seems to be just not sexually assaulting people.   It's not just a lack of a dominant idea, is like there is no idea being presented to them.

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6 minutes ago, StellaM said:

Guys, there's a strong genetic component to anxiety. All of my kids have it; all of my kids got rough play as little ones, with Dad wrestling with them, carting them around like sacks of potatoes, flinging them onto the bed, rumbling. 

I assume y'all are talking about a kind of existential anxiety, not a medically diagnosed mental illness. Doesn't matter what culture some kids are in, they will have anxiety. 

 

I'm not saying that no one who has an anxiety had enough rough play.  Plenty of people my age and older have disabling anxiety.  There's a bell curve for every age, but the percentage of kids with a clinical anxiety condition increases with lack of dangerous play.  It's only one factor, but it's an important one that was unknown until recently.

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1 minute ago, StellaM said:

 

Oh, plenty of ideas being presented by the culture, some good, some bad. That consent - the lowest of bars, really - is being discussed is helpful. There's a certain way, however, that's its dumbed down as an end, not a beginning, that is problematic.

Anyhow, if I don't make sense I have no excuse. No wine for me! It's breakfast!

 

 

 

Yeh, probably wine for breakfast isn't a great idea.  I generally don't drink much wine, I live in apple country, but I had to get a bottle for my sorrel sauce.

I don't know.  I wonder if ideas really get taken in if there isn't a view of the human person to underlay them.  Do most people get that? What's a human other than just another animal?  It may be that for a lot of people, the multiplicity of ideas means to them that really, none of them need to be taken all that seriously.  But I do think that in terms of porn, and the kinds of sexual behaviours that seem to dominate within it, there is some element of not having a sense of what an intimate and respectful relationship would be.  So it's not just that they are seeing something negative, but what it's replacing is something they don't have a good sense of, or which somehow seems inadequate.  

If I think about what I'd really want to tell someone who wants to spend their energy with porn, it's that it's just not a reflection of how you love someone.  That isn't what is being depicted, and it isn't the relationship that you the viewer is having with the actors which to me, is also significant - the viewer is abusing their sexuality too.  And their own sexuality.  But - I don't get the sense that a lot of people really can understand why that would be, it's like it's just an animal appetite with no proper form.

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On 5/23/2018 at 7:10 PM, bzymom said:

 

On 5/24/2018 at 1:38 PM, Bluegoat said:

Yeah, I have to say I feel at a bit of a loss about what to say to my dd13 at times.  She's pretty open about her life and asking questions and such - far more than I ever was - but I know she tends to see what is around her at school as normal, and my concerns as old mom stuff.  And sometimes I feel like the school itself is working against the kinds of values I'd like to teach about things like sexuality and marriage, because it is so focused on things like the consent model, and "feeling ready" and stuff like that.  I talk to her about topics like, what is marriage, what is it for, from a theological perspective, but it's really just so alien to our culture.

I think maybe we need to discuss that consent needs to be well thought out, and from a place of strength, not just giving in or feeling it is the only option. In medical terms we talk about INFORMED consent, not just consent. We recognize that if one is not educated on the pros and cons one cannot truly give consent. Maybe we need to start using that same model in sexuality, the idea of informed consent. Also goes along a bit with the Catholic idea of an informed conscience. 

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On 5/24/2018 at 2:20 PM, Bluegoat said:

 

This is true to an extent, but realistically I think we need to acknowledge to ourselves that most people are actually going to have periods in their lives where they will be celibate.  Maybe often, maybe long ones.  Maybe their whole lives, even if they don't want that.  Because a lot of people seem to think that it isn't possible to do this, and if it happens, it's sort of a terrible curse.  That seems to lead to all kinds of negative ideas.  And maybe to not enough emphasis on giving people concrete tools to really help them deal with it when it does happen.  Like, what do we really tell kids about what to do when they are really sexually tempted?  All the role playing and such they get at school, doesn't tend to say much about that, and I suspect most parents aren't giving advice about it.

Amen. When my children are small and I'm breastfeeding and up half the night I am not intersested in sex. Or rather, I am, but I'm interested in sleep way more. Modern culture would say my marriage is going to be damaged or my husband cheat or what not because we have VERY little sex that first year or so. But you know what, we are fine. It's a phase in life. Neither of us is going to die from lack of sex. It's just the stage we are in. And it's okay. And it's NORMAL. 

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On 5/24/2018 at 4:02 PM, Quill said:

o, I don’t think folks who marry young are lazy or stupid. It’s just easy to settle for this guy if you are already eager to get married. Being hungry for sex is a reason someone might settle for Mr. Right Now. I do think being young and h@rny can make a person less scrutinizing than they would be at 25 and already...less h@rny. 

Also re: lazy. It is human nature to put in less effort where that option appears viable. There is a certain inertia common to humankind. Four years of working towards a degree takes a lot more effort than “just getting married.” If I hadn’t witnessed it so often in my teens and now, repeating again with young women my dd’s age, I guess I wouldn’t think so. But I did. So I do. 

1. Yes, wanting to have sex can be a factor in wanting to get married if you wait. But, the flip side of that is that if you don't wait, having sex before marriage can make it harder to leave a bad relationship because you are more enmeshed, not to mention the risk of pregnancy (yes, even using birth control) which can lead to feeling like they have to marry that person. So there are factors either way and I don't think one is more common than the other really. In my own case, I can say that had I not been having premarital sex I would not have gotten married so young. I got married because I got pregnant. Had I been abstinent  I would have finished college first, and would not have married my ex. 

2. Marriage and raising children is tons of work, and not easier than college. 

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1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

1. Yes, wanting to have sex can be a factor in wanting to get married if you wait. But, the flip side of that is that if you don't wait, having sex before marriage can make it harder to leave a bad relationship because you are more enmeshed, not to mention the risk of pregnancy (yes, even using birth control) which can lead to feeling like they have to marry that person. So there are factors either way and I don't think one is more common than the other really. In my own case, I can say that had I not been having premarital sex I would not have gotten married so young. I got married because I got pregnant. Had I been abstinent  I would have finished college first, and would not have married my ex. 

2. Marriage and raising children is tons of work, and not easier than college. 

Well, I don’t recommend having sex with someone who is a bad relationship partner. I don’t think it’s undesirable to wait a while. I’m not a big endorser of indescriminate hook-ups. 

Also, honestly, I could not pay lip service to my kids of, “Oh, you should wait to have sex until you are married and, BTW, wait to get married until you have completed college at minimum,” when I did not do that and neither did DH. I also don’t think getting married due to pregnancy is at all common anymore. 

None of us knows what would have happened if we had done x,y,z. 

Lastly, yes, the reality of marriage and kids is lots of work, especially if you are trying to do it on one income, but young people frequently do not realize it. Getting married seems easy. It costs practically nothing, unlike college. It doesn’t take a long time to accomplish it, unlike college and/or business. The obstacles to getting married and starting a family are fairly low, is what I’m saying. Nobody elopes a college degree in a feverish rush of excitement. 

 

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This is fascinating to me. This thread keeps returning to young marriage when the video was about hard core porn, the assault of women and the average age of first viewing being 11 years old. I'm sorry but by 18 if you've had a steady diet of that stuff from 11 or younger since that is the average, then maybe there are other concerns than just marriage no matter how old you are.

 

If my daughter chooses to go to college, I want her to be safe there. If my daughter chooses to get married and finish school or stay home and raise children, I want her safe there. Whatever she does is HER choice but I will say most definitively it shouldn't involve pressures and messages explained in the video.

 

  

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7 hours ago, StellaM said:

Guys, there's a strong genetic component to anxiety. All of my kids have it; all of my kids got rough play as little ones, with Dad wrestling with them, carting them around like sacks of potatoes, flinging them onto the bed, rumbling. 

I assume y'all are talking about a kind of existential anxiety, not a medically diagnosed mental illness. Doesn't matter what culture some kids are in, they will have anxiety. 

Yes, there is. Genetics affect everything.  Think of weight gain. There are people who eat whatever they want and don't gain weight and there are people who are super careful with what they eat and excercise a ton and they still struggle with obesity but I do think there are a lot of people in between who can get things under control and they are the ones who will sway the bell curve. The ones on the ends have a harder time changing anything.

 

 

 

 

I also think that kids have a lot of pressure to jump through hoops to adulthood and consider missing one a failure. I don't think media helps this at all. If your kid knows that,of course, you will mess up sometimes she will be better off. When you fall down you get up brush yourself off and move on. Having that attitude, I think, can go a long way towards relieving stress. Knowing there is more than one path to sucess and if you mess up this audition that's ok. There is another one and you would have missed out on it if you were in this ensemble. I think too many kids are told there is one direct path to happiness or success and if they make the wrong decision the game is up. What an anxiety filled way to live.

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14 hours ago, StellaM said:

Guys, there's a strong genetic component to anxiety. All of my kids have it; all of my kids got rough play as little ones, with Dad wrestling with them, carting them around like sacks of potatoes, flinging them onto the bed, rumbling. 

I assume y'all are talking about a kind of existential anxiety, not a medically diagnosed mental illness. Doesn't matter what culture some kids are in, they will have anxiety. 

There is only one anxiety that works through the same area of the brain. Think about it this way...a child could be born missing a thumb or at some point in life a child could accidentally cut off their thumb. Same outcome, same area different ways to get there.

So yes, people genetically predisposed to anxiety such with the MTHFR mutaton, will have a more sensitive threshold to anxiety inducing situations. 

Then there is this other group who may not have had a predisposition to it but their brains were kept what I call "fresh" meaning, they have not had gradual, healthy inoculation exposure to incidences that allow them to face pain, rejection, embarrassment and then recover. So when the stakes are higher and they get pain for the first time it creates mental illness. I always liken it to guitar playing and the difference between the tender finger pads when you first start before a nice smooth callous appears to allow you to play without agony. We wouldn't hand someone who never played an electric guitar and to push them out on stage at an Imagine Dragon concert.

Your affirmation culture idea from up thread was so spot on. Kids do believe this and it is part of this equation. Due to social media and the like, other people's opinions of one's self has never been more necessary for "happiness" All of this is coupled with parents going to bat for a child's every perceived insult and then add that kids aren't really out in the world playing unsupervised and having to experience social hierarchy that way. 

Kids are missing a sense of industry. That they can do something that is their own and succeed at it be it work, arranging a game of neighborhood sports, finding their way back from their friend's house, picking up groceries for mom and so forth. Here's a big one; answering the home phone and not knowing who on the other end it will be so you may find yourself needing to talk with your dad's boss and take a polite message. This is why so many boys plant themselves in front of video games. They get to adventure and have those experiences their bodies crave (girls too but boys more often) and they feel they can be industrious. We robbed them of those real life experiences so now they must get them virtually. 

Kids are told teachers are wrong, political leaders are wrong, police are wrong, parents don't have answers, that they have answers and will save us all. They go to school terrified there could be a shooting...I just feel so much pain for them because what they want to hear is that school is safe, teachers are wise, police will protect them, parents have the answers and will hold them accountable, that there is a right and wrong to life and that they matter to someone. They are literally getting the opposite. ?

Sorry, that was a tangent but sitting and listening to teens cry in my office so fragile and helpless makes my heart break.

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So going to try and go back to the o/t kind of.

 

I borrowed this book on my kindle from my library and thought it was so good that I bought it.  She is/was a sex educator for 30 years.  Basic premise is you want your kids to come to you....but book talks about a lot more.  I really really liked it.  

 

Talk to Me First: Everything You Need to Know to Become Your Kids' Go-To Person for Sex

 

 

We've also decided to do a digital reset and the kids are "fasting" from the internet for the rest of Ramadan.    It's not just about the eldest.  It's about all the kids.  I've seen the biggest difference in behavior (positive) since we stopped in my seven year old.    Surprisingly, everybody is on board because while they may not see their own issues, they did see the issues my seven year old was having in terms of addiction.

I got this book from the library as well:  Reset Your Child's Brain

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14 minutes ago, OKBud said:

I've only read up  to here, sorry. I know everyone probably moved away from this literally days ago.

What I was told by someone who looked into it, but is not themselves an expert, (so hearsay, yes. Sorry.) IS that what can happen is this...

At some point in boys*-- before the onset of full puberty-- go through a period of time in which their minds are extremely open to sexual suggestion. And it is in time that kinks can become especially engrained. So, say for example, he sees  a woman wearing red high heels and at the same time, experiences  those "turned on" feelings. So, the theory goes, he'll always find red high heels sexy, in that case. Accordingly, a straight kid could see some gay sex in this period and forever after find it really sexy. But still want to be with, in all senses, women because they aren't gay. They just think gay stuff is sexy. 

 

*it was suggested that females tend to be more specific and in what they like, and don't really pick up a "kink" that way. Meaning, they like what feels good to their bodies, whether red heels or anything they ever saw when they were ten are involved or not

***It's just a theory someone is floating**** While it jives with my personal experiences in a common sense kind of way, I didn't come up with it and I'm not out in the streets preaching it. 

 

 

 

It's my understanding that there is some evidence to back this up, that's as I understand it where a lot of the research around fetishes leads.  It also seems to make sense in terms of where we see major cultural differences in sexual practices.  

The other thing though about women is that even as adults, they apparently are less likely to be highly specific in their sexual interests - which is where maybe the generalization about all women being bisexual comes from.  

 

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I married young but I am the first to admit that there are many potential pitfalls to marrying young.  Among my friends and acquaintances who married young, my husband and I have beaten the odds for sure.  I was 21 and he was 22 when we got married and it was not all smooth sailing.  We have been married for 16 years at this point and we are happy.  It was not a religious thing (my husband grew up in a generically Christian, C&E at most sort of family, I grew up Catholic and we had a civil marriage) or a shotgun wedding thing.  That said, I have told both of my sons that delaying marriage until they are 25 or older and done with their formal education comes with a lot of benefits.  Because it does and I can see that without taking it as an offense to my own decision and own life.  

We don't talk about abstinence until marriage because that is not part of our belief system.  However, we do talk about the benefits of eschewing hook-up culture and delaying sex until one is an adult and not a high school student.  Many of our friends waited until they were in college or a long-term relationship before they had sex and that seems to have worked well.  We talk a lot about consent and reciprocity in intimate relationships.  And with my older son we have talked often about the ethical issues tied up in porn use. Many of those images are from trafficking or formerly trafficked girls and women and rarely are women compensated fairly in the porn industry.  We also have talked about how sex in porn is NOT what sex is at its best in life.  

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We don't really have different language though for "that guy is gay in terms of sexual orientation" and "that guy is mainly in same-sex relationships because of experiences in a formative moment in his sexual development."  Maybe not really even different ways to categorize that for the people themselves unless they are more thoughtful about it.  It's maybe changing a little bit now, among some, but in general I think it's been rather taboo among liberals to say that there are some people for whom same-sex activity is not really an orientation.  They might accept the possibility in some extreme instances like prisons.  

If you think about the way people discuss this for example, in terms of a group like the ancient Greeks, it's very common to hear them discussed in terms of being an example of a society that accepted homosexual identity.  Well, that's an odd thing to say in a way, because they didn't think of it as an identity, and they were probably more realistically a society that normalized the fetishization of young men.  

It's generally been my observation that people who take up sex as a sort of hobby they pursue can learn to enjoy almost anything that is physically stimulating, especially if it pushes limits.  That has some significant implications I think, especially since if pushing the limit is an important part of the thrill, it will tend to require escalation.  Which seems to be part of what we're seeing with a lot of the internet porn.

 

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12 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

We don't really have different language though for "that guy is gay in terms of sexual orientation" and "that guy is mainly in same-sex relationships because of experiences in a formative moment in his sexual development."  Maybe not really even different ways to categorize that for the people themselves unless they are more thoughtful about it.  It's maybe changing a little bit now, among some, but in general I think it's been rather taboo among liberals to say that there are some people for whom same-sex activity is not really an orientation.  They might accept the possibility in some extreme instances like prisons.  

 

This reminds me of the C. S. Lewis writing on the subject.  Boys' schools--usually temporarily--are in the mix.  

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19 hours ago, OKBud said:

I've only read up  to here, sorry. I know everyone probably moved away from this literally days ago.

What I was told by someone who looked into it, but is not themselves an expert, (so hearsay, yes. Sorry.) IS that what can happen is this...

At some point in boys*-- before the onset of full puberty-- go through a period of time in which their minds are extremely open to sexual suggestion. And it is in time that kinks can become especially engrained. So, say for example, he sees  a woman wearing red high heels and at the same time, experiences  those "turned on" feelings. So, the theory goes, he'll always find red high heels sexy, in that case. Accordingly, a straight kid could see some gay sex in this period and forever after find it really sexy. But still want to be with, in all senses, women because they aren't gay. They just think gay stuff is sexy. 

 

*it was suggested that females tend to be more specific and in what they like, and don't really pick up a "kink" that way. Meaning, they like what feels good to their bodies, whether red heels or anything they ever saw when they were ten are involved or not

***It's just a theory someone is floating**** While it jives with my personal experiences in a common sense kind of way, I didn't come up with it and I'm not out in the streets preaching it. 

 

 

This is also one of the theories behind the sex abuse scandal in the Catholic Church. Most of the abusers are those who came of age when you could enter the seminary at highschool age, rather than as a college thing. So they were put together, all hormonal and pubescent, and were surrounded by other boys of that age (with other stuff going on that messed with their sexuality as well) and so later had an attraction to boys that age. 

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31 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

This is also one of the theories behind the sex abuse scandal in the Catholic Church. Most of the abusers are those who came of age when you could enter the seminary at highschool age, rather than as a college thing. So they were put together, all hormonal and pubescent, and were surrounded by other boys of that age (with other stuff going on that messed with their sexuality as well) and so later had an attraction to boys that age. 

 

That's a little later than what I understood to be the age where these things get set - I thought it was more early teens.  

Though, I do remember reading, somewhere - goodness knows where I can't remember - that for some young men who seem to have an interest in presenting as women, if they begin a heterosexual sexual relationship in their late teens and early 20s they are much more likely to report that desire lessens.  Which suggests that even experiences in young adulthood can modify what has been experienced in earlier years.  (That sounds really awkward, sorry.)

I'm not convinced it's ever been very clear that the rates of abuse were higher than in other institutional settings.

 

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On ‎5‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 8:55 PM, Bluegoat said:

 

I think though any larger question of how society deals with sexual topics is going to be closely related to outcomes in terms of how people are affected.  I don't know how that can be separated from some kind of impact on what people do individually or privately.  For example, with porn, if that is going to affect man people in a medical way, or affect how people relate to each other, or the hyper-sexualization of teens, how do we address that without talking to people about what they do, at least in the abstract?  We are either saying, look we need laws or regulations around this, or we need to be telling people their private choices are having these negative effects for many people.  How to do that without impinging on what some will say is purely a private decision?

So also, something I was wondering while watching the video, and your post makes me think of it too.  I never got a great sense of why she thinks this happens.  What is it in human nature, and also in our culture, that feeds this?  Technology enables it, but I don't think it's really the source.  I got some sense that she thinks capitalism is to blame, and that gender is to blame.  In the first case I say yes, it absolutely pushes this, but it doesn't really explain why it is so powerful.  Is it just about appetite?  She also seems to indicate that "gender" is part of it.  I find that a little unsatisfying though, because it seems like it just creates the question of where gender comes from and why it would create power structures, and I've never found the more common feminist arguments about that wholly adequate.  

And I wonder - what does all this tell us about the nature of sexuality, what it ought to look like.  Because I think, you can't just give people a negative, and tell them, this is unhealthy, this creates exploitation, this is going to make you impotent.  You need to give them some kind of vision of how to be integrated and truly relational.  And I'd even say moral, though I think that word would probably create a backlash very quickly.

As to the bolded sentences in the first paragraph, I think that making porn sites as impermeable to minors as possible would be a start.  Doing this doesn't legislate what adults do in the privacy of their home or the choices adults make; we handle alcohol and cigarettes like that now.  It's not perfect, but it sure would be better than having these sites free of charge and open to everyone with a mouse and a keyboard.  Educating parents can be a start, as well, and perhaps this conversation can be started in the pediatrician's office when a child is getting to the age when this is a threat.

 

For the bolded sentences in the second paragraph, I think that acceptance of any and all porn is part of the larger culture where everything is selfishly acceptable, with no regard to how society is affected.  If it's OK to walk down a public street wearing a t-shirt with the F word imprinted on it, if it's OK to tell a child that any kind of lifestyle choice is perfectly OK and acceptable because personal lifestyle choices are nobody's business, if it's OK for magazines (like were in the video) to be displayed in public as if the images/articles on the cover are acceptable, then why should we be surprised that kids find what they see on porn sights "just another personal choice" and A-OK? 

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