Lukeion Muse or WTMA Rhetoric?

[lisabees]

I am looking for my rising 10th-grade dd.

She has taken 4 Bravewriter classes this year and WTMA's Socratic Discussion and Creative Writing.

She loves creative writing and will be attending a three-week writers workshop at Bard this summer. She wants to major in English.

She has never been taught classically, however. I'd like her to be challenged (but not overwhelmed) and surrounded by others who are also engaged. She does love WTMA. Last year, she took a Lukeion workshop by Sue Fisher and LOVED her. 

So...I understand that WTMA's Rhetoric is considered a writing credit. The Muse is a literature series. Do they overlap? Do they stand alone? Would both classes at the same time be too much? Should I add the WTMA Lit if doing the Rhetoric class?

I am happy to supplement with Bravewriter or Roy Speed (secular only here) if necessary.

Two main questions (beyond the others swirling in my head):

1. If you have experience with either WTMA Rhetoric and/or Lukeion Muse series, would you kindly share?

2. For a 10th grader just getting her footing and identifying as an "English" person, how you would craft a year surrounded by writing and reading and language?

She is my one kid who craves online classes...

 

 

 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Muse classes - Students read classical selections. Sometimes part of a longer work (like epics or histories) and sometimes a whole piece (plays, poetry, speeches).  There is a quiz based on the reading. It requires recall and also some understanding (ex understanding allusions or putting writers into chronological order).  There were 3-4 writing assignments each semester.  Most were model papers in which the student had to emulate the style studied.  Students were given instruction in class and with the assignment sheet of the key elements.

There was at least one paper that was more literary criticism in which students compared a modern work with elements of an old style.

The class was so good my youngest is taking it despite the fact that time zones make it terribly early for him.

[Corraleno]

Muse is a full English credit, IMO. There are eight essays or writing assignments  (4 per semester) plus the quizzes, and the writing assignments are quite creative. Three from the Roman half of the course that I can remember off the top of my head were: (1) write a Ciceronian defense or prosecution of a historical or fictional character,  structuring the argument exactly as he does; (2) take several poems written by male poets addressing women, and write poetic responses from the women; (3) compare & contrast a modern comedy with Roman comedy.

[lisabees]

Thank you both!

DD would love the more creative writing aspect of Muse. Would the readings overwhelm her? Any suggestions to prepare her?

 

[pinkelement]

I don't think the amount of reading is overwhelming in Muse. It got a little difficult with Aristotle. But overall, if spaced evenly during the week, it is doable. And they start with Greeks (fall semester), and that is usually a little easier going, more goofy. 

Just to emphasize, it is an excellent into into Greek and Roman body of literature with the creative writing component but it is not a writing mechanics class. The 4 essays per semester would definitely give her plenty of opportunity to be creative in how to approach assigned papers, but at the same time she needs to hit all the parameters assigned for that essay. The feedback that Sue Fisher gives on the essays is excellent, but there are no rewrites. So, in that sense it is not the class for someone who is looking on "how" to write or form an essay. On the other hand my daughter  only turned 13 when she started the class and the teacher was totally flexible about it evaluating her work and meeting her at the level she was at the time. Her writing skills improved tremendously over that year, but it was mostly from the sheer amount of papers she had to work on. But most with most she was very engaged with. 

Sue Fisher is probably still one of her favorite teachers, so much so that she measures others to the mark of Sue Fisher. And very few come to it ?

Actually, Julia Denne with " By the Onion Sea" has probably earned that place on the Mount Olympus for her next to Sue Fisher. ?

 

 

 

[crazyforlatin]

I didn’t enroll DD in a Rhetoric/Great Books this time, but during the beginning of the year I was debating and emailing a couple of teachers. For consideration were the classes you mentioned plus CLRC Great Books and WHA. For CLRC, the teacher suggested that 3 credits can be given for writing, history, and literature. 

[lisabees]

Thank you!

pinkelement, you have pointed out the cause of my indecision. Writing course or Lit course with writing? 

My plan would be to have dd take AP Lang the next year. Lukeion would prepare her, right?

 

 

 

[pinkelement]

Well, I remember there was a post here some time back from a mom basically asking the same thing. What would prepare her dd for the AP Lang class? She actually contacted Maya Inspektor from PAH and her reply was to read, and read, and read. She said teaching how to write is not hard, but it is much easier if the student has read plenty of literature. And she meant both fiction and non fiction, as well as periodicals. 

Back then I was surprised at the answer, that the emphasis is on literature, not the writing, but I do get it now. We are taking the class with her next year and I think there will be some hand holding, at least in the beginning, as far as writing mechanics go. But it will also involve a lot of reading, processing and analyzing ideas. 

Muse classes are great. On some level, it is a little hard for me to answer if they will prepare for AP, because my dd was only 13 when she took them and she really struggled to keep her head above water. It was Sue Fisher's magic that kept her in. And it was well worth it. I suppose if she had taken it now, she would get so much more out of it.

But this is what it looks like. A lecture (I don't remember much  discussion  during  the lecture,  but  students  could ask  questions), assigned reading (various samples from poetry, speeches, medical journals, etc.), weekly quizzes, mostly checking recollection and comprehension of the material, and creative papers. Papers were returned with very constructive comments, but there was no rewriting them. 

Not to muddy the waters, but my kiddo took this https://bytheonionsea.com/tag/teen-classes last semester (it was Anna Karenina). And from it I have much better sense that she is ready for the AP. Did it prepare her? I think so. It definitely stretched her, just like Muse did two years ago in its own way. Lots and lots of in-depth discussions about the material covered, both live and off line. There is only one paper at the end, but that one paper gets revised numerous times. Very, very valuable. 

I think both classes will prepare her, actually. They are just somewhat different. 

If it makes any difference, it was Sue Fisher who recommended Julia Denne when I asked her what would be the next step for us ?

Actually, i would suggest contacting any of the AP Lang. teachers at PAH  and ask them that same question. Or for that matter both Sue Fisher or Julia Denne would most likely give you a very thoughtful reply.

This is long winded answer, but I hope it was somewhat helpful. 

 

On 5/23/2018 at 1:58 PM, lisabees said:

Thank you!

pinkelement, you have pointed out the cause of my indecision. Writing course or Lit course with writing? 

My plan would be to have dd take AP Lang the next year. Lukeion would prepare her, right?

 

 

 

My daughter also took Muse classes and loved it, loved the teacher. So much so, that she measures everyone by Sue Fisher's standard. But if you are looking for a writing class, that would help with the mechanics of writing, it is not it. There are 4 essays per semester, and Sue Fisher is giving wonderful

 

[lisabees]

You are so thoughtful, pinkelement!

And around here, if Maya Inspektor says something...:)

Read, read, read. Thank you for the reminder and the change in perspective as we navigate this. 

Your details on the class are exactly what I'm looking for. I've also seen the syllabus, so I have a decent idea now. I sent an email to Lukeion, but they're away until June 7th.

I know Julia Denne is highly regarded. I imagine her class to be a step up from Muse? 

[pinkelement]

Perhaps Sue would be open to accepting revised papers as well, which is always valuable. Definitely talk to her.

I don't know about Julia Denne would necessarily be a step up. Both give a place to ponder and reflect on ideas. In Muse it would be in her papers, for Russian lit, in weekly discussions and the term paper.  

It just for us, it really clicked with Julia because I think my daughter reached a certain level of maturity at that point. I guess what I am trying to say that I can't think of any special prep classes that I can point to, beside some writing and a lot of reading. Muse is great for it, because the reading selection is excellent and the paper topics make one reflect on it.

[lisabees]

Well, I reached out to Maya Inspektor. Now I am more confusticated!

She recommended that dd not take an English course and just read, read, read and do creative writing for real audiences. She said that never again in her life will she have the time to read and write what she wants.

This is very appealing to me. 

Here is a post I found, written by Inspektor, that also sums things up.

http://www.pahomeschoolers.com/post3036.shtml

Thoughts anyone?

[pinkelement]

14 hours ago, lisabees said:

Well, I reached out to Maya Inspektor. Now I am more confusticated!

She recommended that dd not take an English course and just read, read, read and do creative writing for real audiences. She said that never again in her life will she have the time to read and write what she wants.

This is very appealing to me. 

Here is a post I found, written by Inspektor, that also sums things up.

http://www.pahomeschoolers.com/post3036.shtml

Thoughts anyone?

I do get it as far as reading high quality literature. To me it always was something akin to a eating good food. With some time, it will start reflecting in one's writing. 

I suppose what Maya is saying is not to take the class for the sake of prepping. 

I don't know, Muse is a good class. It has elements of both, good reading and creative writing. Maybe sign up just for the Greek part first and see how it goes. If it's not your daughter's cup of tea, you can always spend spring semester doing something else. 

 

 

14 hours ago, lisabees said:

Well, I reached out to Maya Inspektor. Now I am more confusticated!

She recommended that dd not take an English course and just read, read, read and do creative writing for real audiences. She said that never again in her life will she have the time to read and write what she wants.

This is very appealing to me. 

Here is a post I found, written by Inspektor, that also sums things up.

http://www.pahomeschoolers.com/post3036.shtml

Thoughts anyone?

 

 

I wonder if you asked Sue Fisher might be open to accepting revisions on the papers or whatever else that would be helpful to be ready for the AP class. She is so flexible and giving. 

But as I say that, I remember also thinking that way in the beginning of the last year, that we have a year to get my kiddo up the speed for the AP English. I decided to try Julia Denne, and if necessary to add Brave Writer courses. It was during that class, I realized she is already there, not because there was any special prep, but because it gave her a safe and supporting space to stretch herself with a reflective thinking that was expressed writing. 

Muse would also serve that. The scope of literature is both interesting and challenging and the papers serve to reinforce what was read. And there I think 

?

 

On 5/23/2018 at 1:58 PM, lisabees said:

Thank you!

pinkelement, you have pointed out the cause of my indecision. Writing course or Lit course with writing? 

My plan would be to have dd take AP Lang the next year. Lukeion would prepare her, right?

 

 

 

My daughter also took Muse classes and loved it, loved the teacher. So much so, that she measures everyone by Sue Fisher's standard. But if you are looking for a writing class, that would help with the mechanics of writing, it is not it. There are 4 essays per semester, and Sue Fisher is giving wonderful

 

[4ofus]

I am so glad to have some down time this summer & be back on here! I have a rising freshman & we have his freshman English class all sorted, but Lukeion Muse sounds perfect for sophomore year. Is 10th grade appropriate? Or is for younger teens? I have not used Lukeion before. Well, actually, I think we did a summer short workshop type class once when they were younger - maybe that is why I'm wondering about the age.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

16 hours ago, 4ofus said:

I am so glad to have some down time this summer & be back on here! I have a rising freshman & we have his freshman English class all sorted, but Lukeion Muse sounds perfect for sophomore year. Is 10th grade appropriate? Or is for younger teens? I have not used Lukeion before. Well, actually, I think we did a summer short workshop type class once when they were younger - maybe that is why I'm wondering about the age.

 

My older son was 10th grade when he took it.  My rising 10th grader is taking it this year.

There is a good bit of reading in the course.  I'm not sure most pre high school students are ready for the quantity or content.