Who to believe - Update

[Random]

12 minutes ago, Ellie said:

So you haven't talked to the child accuser? That's problematic. You're only hearing the story second hand. Wouldn't that be called hearsay? You need to hear it directly from the child, in the presence of *your* child, because she should get to face her accuser.

 

Along these lines, there has been a peer of my son's who continually accuses him of doing wrong things.  At first, I believed the accuser because it kind of 'fit.'  After the third time, I got the accuser, the accuser's mom, and my son together for a little chat.  We were already together for something else, so it wasn't a big deal.  Turns out the accuser wasn't so sure that what he had 'seen' and reported was actually true, or that my son was actually doing anything wrong.  He admitted he had made up the issue I was asking my son to apologize for.  I felt awful for assuming the worst about my kid!  But, it really did clear things up. 

FWIW, I think the accuser and mom agreed to the (very casual not aggressive) chat because I said I wanted my son to apologize and to do it in front of the affected people.  I didn't act confrontational, but rather conciliatory.  My son was so relieved that the truth was acknowledged.  It gave me serious pause that my son was wiling to apologize for something he didn't actually do.  The accuser still accuses, though.  Last night, as a matter of fact!  I just don't take it so seriously anymore.

If my son had actually been doing the things that were said about him, I would've been glad to know that, too.

[LarlaB]

8 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

I didn't read all the responses but did read the update. 

My word. 

All this fuss, with adults telling other adults, about KISSING and some dirty dancing?!?!

Last I checked, kissing wasn't a sin. Gossiping is. 

And calling someone trash?!?!!? If my son said that about a fellow human being we'd have a long talk about how each person is made in the image of God, and to never say that about someone. I would also caution my child not to engage in malicious gossip (especially as he didn't see everything first hand, and I'd better hard money that somewhere there is a jealous girl starting or feeding this nonsense), and leave it at that. 

I CERTAINLY would not be repeating this nonsense to anyone and would NOT repeat the word "trash" if I did. How hateful. It's absolutely hateful. And misogynistic. Wonder if that boy also called the BOY she was kissing and dancing with trash, hmmm? 

We may not wish our daughters to be doing this type of thing, and can speak with them about choices, reputations, appearances, hurt feelings when we are casual with our affections, etc. But it certainly does NOT rise to the level of "warn another parent about" in my book. 

Disgraceful. 

Hugs to your daughter, and hugs to you. I suggest you both take time this weekend, together, to bond a bit and heal from this malicious gossip. Maybe a trip to a coffee shop together or some retail therapy if you have the budget (even thrift store), or whatever you enjoy together. Let her know YOU don't think she is trash, even if she did every single thing they said and more, that who she is as a person is not defined by who she kisses, that her value as a child of God doesn't rest in who she kisses or what gossips say about her. MAYBE broach, gently that this type of thing does happen and can be a real problem, and she may want to consider her actions in light of this, but mostly I'd work on assuring her I loved her and that none of this defines her or makes me think less of her, no matter what. 

She might be blowing it off externally, but I can't imagine that kind of talk isn't hurting her deep down. 

 

 

100%!!!!  Well stated. 

[Soror]

Incredible.

Poor girl, I'd be giving her a big hug.

I remember high school rumors. Just reading this makes me so angry and sad. What a nasty women and son.

I'd not like my daughter to be dirty dancing but it doesn't make her any less of a person and as Katy mentioned I'm sure the family reporting it didn't go to the parents of the boy in such horror. 

I've already started warning my girls of such things, I think the attack on their character from gossiping busybodies is far more damaging than any kissing they might do.

[MinivanMom]

Seriously?! Teenagers dancing and kissing?! If this family is so conservative that their son is uncomfortable witnessing other teens dancing and kissing, then they might want to rethink allowing their son to attend prom. And I don't doubt that he greatly exaggerated what he saw and/or conflated the actions of multiple people into one single complaint against your daughter to justify his discomfort. 

Honestly, it sounds like this young man has been seriously over-sheltered. Too bad his parents didn't also protect him from their own bad examples of judging others, gossiping, spreading slander, talking trash behind someone's back & generally misogyny. He came home from prom to complain about the young woman (just the young woman, yes?) dancing and kissing, and then he called her "trash". Wow.

These women are not your friends, and I would tell them to stuff it. If it were my daughter, I would advise her to stay far away from this young man and far away from any of the moms involved. And, yes, I would believe her, and I would 100% have her back. Gossip like this can do a surprising amount of damage.

[teachermom2834]

Wow...that parent was way out of line. That does not rise to the level of one adult tattling on a near adult to a parent. 

Even if you know the other parent wouldn’t approve that just does not rise to the level of going to a parent.

When one of my ds was about 8th grade I think, a holier than thou co-op teacher sent me a long email informing me that she had the kids write letters  to themselves to be opened at high school graduation or something. The details are fuzzy but she had accidentally seen something in the letter about ds thinking about kissing a girl in the class. She consulted with her husband, a pastor, and who knows how many other people and then felt she had to come to me with this. I didn’t like the thought of my ds writing that but it was developmentally normal and no where close to anything a teacher should discuss with others and then tattle to me. I never mentioned it to ds so i don’t even know the details. He would have been so embarrassed and for what good?

Your story made me think of my story. Sometimes kids just get to live without every detail judged and taken to the parents. That is so very much drama and hurt over something that might make adults cringe but should be left alone unless the parents walked in on it themselves.

I’m sorry for you and your dd!

[teachermom2834]

I’m also going to go out in a limb and say there is likely some kind of jealousy or need for these other people to “knock your dd down a peg” or something equally petty or ugly.  They are not your friends.

[Tanaqui]

Quote

Mom of the boy talked to her son again. The original accusation was apparently a compilation of things that happened on prom night by different people which got turned into my daughter doing a whole lot of stuff I couldn't fathom her doing. We're left with he was uncomfortable with what he saw her doing on the dance floor (grinding dancing, maybe kissing) and kissing on the bus. She still insists it was a lot less than what the adults are picturing.

 

Geez. I thought the accusation was that she was shooting heroin or knocking over liquor stores or setting fires or littering or something. This is such a non-issue, even if it's 100% accurate. Definitely let it go, then.

[Lady Florida.]

Wow. After reading the update it sounds like a lot of drama over nothing. I do think the boy was uncomfortable because he has feelings for your dd and didn't like seeing her having fun with a boy who isn't him. 

[Sneezyone]

Did the mom of the boy at least apologize? If that were my DS I’d STILL be reading him the riot act.

[Katy]

2 minutes ago, Lady Florida. said:

Wow. After reading the update it sounds like a lot of drama over nothing. I do think the boy was uncomfortable because he has feelings for your dd and didn't like seeing her having fun with a boy who isn't him. 

 

This.  So much this.  And this kid is weird and has an overly enmeshed relationship with a mom who also lacks social skills, so he's bewildered as to why OP's DD isn't interested in him.

It's easier for him to label her trash than it is for him to figure out why the girl doesn't like him.

If it were me I'd get her favorite junk food, watch Easy A (another story about high school gossip and a scarlet letter), and tell her to avoid that jerk and all of his friends as much as she can.

[Meriwether]

1 hour ago, SquirrellyMama said:

I agree, but she said she wanted to keep her child out of it. 

Well, that's rich. She could have kept him out of it by telling him to mind his own business. She could have kept him out of it by keeping her mouth shut.

[sassenach]

Well, this family has shown you who they are. Take that as a lesson and put some distance between you and your daughter and them.

[Guest]

17 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

 

Everybody thinks this, but when you actually study people's interactions with their children they don't do much better than chance. (Everybody thinks they're the exception to this as well. Statistically speaking, they're not.)

<giggle> This reminds me of a time when a friend of mine was very adamantly certain that her upper-teens dd was still a virgin. Her “evidence” was that, “I would know. I could just tell.” Umm, okay, so these sceanrios that suuuuuure do like like an instance in which she was getting alone-time with her college-age bf don’t mean they’re doin’ it. How’s the weather in La-La Land? 

*necessary disclaimer: Not saying ALL teens would be getting to know one another in the Biblical way given an opportunity. I know some are committed to virginity. But nothing indicated the girl or guy were, so I’m going on averages...

PS: When the friend discovered her antennae were actually not reliable indicators of behavior, she was fifty shades of all-pissed-off. I think she was more mad that she was duped than she was mad about what was actually going down. (She found incontrivertable evidence.; that’s how she learned.)

[El...]

Ya know, the more I've thought about this today, the more intensely I dislike the term "trash." 

JMO, but if my daughter took a hard left turn and slept with the whole football team, she would not be "trash."  (I'm leaping to the conclusion that "trash" is being used as it is toward girls, synonymous with "slutty," "trampy," or "unladylike.")  

OP, I hope you feel reinforced and supported by all this speculative conversation.  Hug your kid and keep her close.

[gardenmom5]

22 hours ago, SquirrellyMama said:

If you are told that someone you know did something completely out of character, how do you choose who to believe?  I'm so torn up about this.

UPDATE- Mom of the boy talked to her son again. The original accusation was apparently a compilation of things that happened on prom night by different people which got turned into my daughter doing a whole lot of stuff I couldn't fathom her doing. We're left with he was uncomfortable with what he saw her doing on the dance floor (grinding dancing, maybe kissing) and kissing on the bus. She still insists it was a lot less than what the adults are picturing.

I'm still a bit scarred ?

 

Kelly

what is this boy's relationship with your daughter?  he's not her brother, he's not her prom date . . . why was he so uncomfortable at what she did - he wrapped multiple people's behavior and blamed it on her?  does he have a crush on her?   was he jealous she "kissed another boy"? 

or did his mother grill him on his behavior when he got home to make sure everything was according to her standards?   was he doing those things with his date and he feel's guilty, so he's deflecting? 

 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

Did the mom of the boy at least apologize? If that were my DS I’d STILL be reading him the riot act.

the mom sounded like she actually enjoyed her pious casting shame act.  those types do not apologize, even when caught red-handed.  let alone censure their children for casting shame.  unless - it's casting shame at someone they love more than that child - like themselves.

46 minutes ago, sassenach said:

Well, this family has shown you who they are. Take that as a lesson and put some distance between you and your daughter and them.

 

exactly.  

make no mistake - that mom "enjoyed" throwing dirt on your daughter- and you for being her mother.

take it as an opportunity to discuss with your daughter about narcissistic/toxic people.

[Ailaena]

1 hour ago, Lady Florida. said:

Wow. After reading the update it sounds like a lot of drama over nothing. I do think the boy was uncomfortable because he has feelings for your dd and didn't like seeing her having fun with a boy who isn't him. 

 

Too lazy to say this myself, so this.  So much this.  

[Sneezyone]

35 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

the mom sounded like she actually enjoyed her pious casting shame act.  those types do not apologize, even when caught red-handed.  let alone censure their children for casting shame.  unless - it's casting shame at someone they love more than that child - like themselves.

 

exactly.  

make no mistake - that mom "enjoyed" throwing dirt on your daughter- and you for being her mother.

take it as an opportunity to discuss with your daughter about narcissistic/toxic people.

 

goodness, yes. Something similar happened to my kiddo this year and it was horrible. I did stick up for her and, in the process, uncovered a long and sordid history of the accuser saying things about other kids. He was ultimately put on supervised lockdown but the damage was done. Thanks to FERPA, no one in authority could clear the air. I think the hardest part, for me, was watching adults, who should know better, participate in hurting/shunning other kids. *I* was totally blindsided by that but probably shouldn’t have been. The instinct to toss the first stone is eternal.

[Tanaqui]

One more thing: While this really is a non-issue, I think now we do have proof that it didn't happen. If it had happened, the chaperones would've stepped in. I assume this woman would not send her son to an unchaperoned dance....

So it's a non-issue AND it didn't happen, but if it HAD happened then this woman would be seriously overreacting to what is, honestly, normal adolescent behavior.

[SanDiegoMom]

Speaking as someone who as a teen did a LOT of behavior that I wasn't proud of, the behavior had fewer consequences long term than the effect of my parents' reaction on my  self esteem. Their shock and low opinion of me made my depression deepen for a few years and required lots of therapy to overcome (after it  precipated more dangerous behavior such as eating disorders and self harm.) Whatever your daughter might or might not have done, your reaction to it will have a huge impact on her mental health. 

[ktgrok]

19 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

Speaking as someone who as a teen did a LOT of behavior that I wasn't proud of, the behavior had fewer consequences long term than the effect of my parents' reaction on my  self esteem. Their shock and low opinion of me made my depression deepen for a few years and required lots of therapy to overcome (after it  precipated more dangerous behavior such as eating disorders and self harm.) Whatever your daughter might or might not have done, your reaction to it will have a huge impact on her mental health. 

This.

My son has had a lot of issues and made choices I don't like (more lack of doing what needed to be done than doing things he shouldn't), and somehow I managed one day to realize that in 10 or 20 years, none of this stuff will REALLY matter, but his self esteem, his mental health, and our relationship with each other WILL still matter. 

I see my neighbors, who took a hard line with their kids, and at this point have zero relationship with 2 of the three. None. Not even holidays. I can't help but think, was your hard line on chores and grades worth this??? At any point did you stop and deal with them as a total human, rather than just their actions and mistakes??? It's so sad. 

[lavender's green]

Oh, wow. Kissing and dancing were not at all what was running through my mind. The dancing can't have been that bad, either, or the chaperones would have stepped in. I mean, prom is for dancing, and likely some kissing. Educators are aware that young people can get carried away in that atmosphere, which is why they arrange for chaperones to make sure things don't get too crazy. I feel so sorry for this girl who was just having some age-appropriate and culturally-appropriate fun, and she can't have been acting worse than her peers if this gossip about her is actually a compilation of what lots of girls were doing. Her community, especially the adults in it, really let her down.

[ktgrok]

Woman tells you everything her son said. 

Response: Oh, thank you for telling me. I'll be sure to pray for him.

Woman: Huh? For who?

Response: For your son, to help him avoid the sin of gossiping, of course. It's such a terrible thing to fall into. 

[sassenach]

 

12 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Woman tells you everything her son said. 

Response: Oh, thank you for telling me. I'll be sure to pray for him.

Woman: Huh? For who?

Response: For your son, to help him avoid the sin of gossiping, of course. It's such a terrible thing to fall into. 

 

Ooh, I want to play!

Text to other mom: Just wanted to let you know I'm praying for you. Parenting teens is so hard! I know you must be so upset about how your son lied to you and created such an ugly situation. I'm praying the Lord gives you wisdom as you parent through these challenging character issues. (((HUGS)))

 

<passive aggressive mic drop>

[Ellie]

7 hours ago, SquirrellyMama said:

I agree, but she said she wanted to keep her child out of it. 

Uh, no. What a silly thing to say, She wants to keep her child out while accusing yours? Uh, no.

[Ellie]

On 5/18/2018 at 3:22 PM, SquirrellyMama said:

UPDATE- Mom of the boy talked to her son again. The original accusation was apparently a compilation of things that happened on prom night by different people which got turned into my daughter doing a whole lot of stuff I couldn't fathom her doing. We're left with he was uncomfortable with what he saw her doing on the dance floor (grinding dancing, maybe kissing) and kissing on the bus. She still insists it was a lot less than what the adults are picturing.

I'm still a bit scarred ?

 

Kelly

?

I'm angry on your daughter's behalf.

For future reference, never, ever let someone accuse you or anyone else by proxy. IOW, the person who is making the accusation must face you. The end.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

After poor DH got finished scraping me off the ceiling, I would try to calm down enough to tell the woman that her son will have to learn to deal with his disappointments and jealousies in more socially acceptable ways. Labeling girls who aren't kissing HIM the Whore of Babylon in the community, is pretty screwed up. Also, if I had any power over this, the boy and his mother and their friends would never see my daughter again. If they did look at her, when they looked up, they'd see me.

[Mimm]

Read your update and just infuriated on behalf of you and your daughter. And I would never honor his request to keep him "out of it." If she wanted him kept out of it, she should have kept her gossiping mouth shut, and if he didn't want to be involved, he should have been not involved. I like the text ideas above, but I'd be likely to send something much angrier.

[Scarlett]

Wow.  Agreeing with everyone else.

 

[SquirrellyMama]

I want to thank everyone again. You have all helped me keep my sanity, and my dd16 has really been lifted up by your responses. 

To clarify a couple things. The boy didn't make up the situation, he was relaying to his mom about multiple situations and my daughter's name came up. She interpreted it to mean my daughter was doing this stuff. 

The original accusation was that my dd was making out with two boys at one time, and being groped while her skirt was in the air. This was what came through from boy to mom to friend to me. It was then lessened to dirty dancing and kissing, although while talking to my daughter I really can't understand what was so bad. I don't like dirty dancing, but she wasn't pressed up to multiple people, just her boyfriend. Oh, and the way he got two boys was that he saw them at the dance, and then saw them after the dance in different clothing (for after prom) and he didn't realize the guy was her date from the dance. Why in the world would your mind jump to her with 2 guys when everyone changed clothes. So, when it came to me it was 2 guys at one time. This is what was totally out of character. I just couldn't see it unless she had gotten really, REALLY drunk at which point she would have been thrown out.

This boy has vowed to not have a relationship in high school so I think he's putting his standards on other people. His mom is concerned about the company my daughter is keeping at school. She put the word cheerleaders in there. Ok, my daughter is a cheerleader. She's probably going to talk to some other cheerleaders! 

I am still so angry. I'm really trying hard not to say some really nasty things to them. But, I really just want to not have any contact with either person for a long time.

No one deserves to hear themselves or their child called trash. My daughter just told me that yesterday she was really having a hard time thinking that maybe she was awful and trashy. I told her I don't think so, and none of you do either! 

Kelly

 

[Terabith]

Besides it being a complete nonissue, this sounds like it was third hand.  So, son to mom, mom to other adult woman, that adult woman to you?  But dancing and kissing is not what I was thinking.  Sheesh.  What a massive overreaction!

[gardenmom5]

32 minutes ago, SquirrellyMama said:

 

This boy has vowed to not have a relationship in high school so I think he's putting his standards on other people. His mom is concerned about the company my daughter is keeping at school. She put the word cheerleaders in there. Ok, my daughter is a cheerleader. She's probably going to talk to some other cheerleaders! 

 

 

vowing (to whom?)  to "not have a relationship in high school" - and not liking any girls enough to NOT WANT to have a relationship in high school are two completely different things.  especially for hormonal teenage boys.  he could still like your dd. . . and if he's "vowed" to not have any relationships- why did he go to prom?   kinda sucks to go without a date when the main form of entertainment is supposed to be dancing.

why does this other mother care?  is she your dd's aunt? godparent?  etc?  likes to strut around being sanctimoniously pious?  her reaction is hinkey.

I agree with the others - turn it around that she and her son are the gossips . . .becasue they are.

[RootAnn]

I can't remember doing much grinding, but I sure did do my share of kissing from 16 on up. (My parents didn't allow us to date prior to 16, so I figured I was making up for lost time.) I hope I remember some of the good come-backs posted above if anyone calls me with reports of one of my kids having fun in public with her friends (including hugging or kissing a boyfriend). 

I think, SquirrellyMama, that you are right to cut off contact with this rude mother & her gossipy son. I'd be polite if forced to interact, but have my steely stare ready to go and a pithy comment waiting in the wings if she approaches you. Hopefully, you can avoid any phone calls.

And I remember how great she looked in her dress although I can't find the thread anymore. Many hugs to your DD.

[LMD]

SquirrelyMama's DD, take it from someone who totally acted trashy (and then some) in high school... 

You are not trash, and anyone who dehumanises someone is not worth worrying about. You are allowed to have fun. Kissing and dancing with your boyfriend at 16 will not bring the apocalypse or determine your life. Your worth is intrinsic. Not one of us reaches perfection by works. I hope you had a ball, don't let this idiot ruin your memories!

[Guest]

Yup. What she said, SM’s DD. You are more precious than rubies and worth more than gold. 

[Tanaqui]

Quote

His mom is concerned about the company my daughter is keeping at school.

 

Well, bully for her! It must be nice not to have any other worries than how other people's children behave!

[gardenmom5]

5 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

 

Well, bully for her! It must be nice not to have any other worries than how other people's children behave!

ime- people who have enough time to be focused on how other people are living their lives, are ignoring everything in their own life because they aren't happy with their own lives.

and you don't even discuss things with them.

[Ellie]

1 hour ago, SquirrellyMama said:

I want to thank everyone again. You have all helped me keep my sanity, and my dd16 has really been lifted up by your responses. 

To clarify a couple things. The boy didn't make up the situation, he was relaying to his mom about multiple situations and my daughter's name came up. She interpreted it to mean my daughter was doing this stuff. 

The original accusation was that my dd was making out with two boys at one time, and being groped while her skirt was in the air. This was what came through from boy to mom to friend to me. It was then lessened to dirty dancing and kissing, although while talking to my daughter I really can't understand what was so bad. I don't like dirty dancing, but she wasn't pressed up to multiple people, just her boyfriend. Oh, and the way he got two boys was that he saw them at the dance, and then saw them after the dance in different clothing (for after prom) and he didn't realize the guy was her date from the dance. Why in the world would your mind jump to her with 2 guys when everyone changed clothes. So, when it came to me it was 2 guys at one time. This is what was totally out of character. I just couldn't see it unless she had gotten really, REALLY drunk at which point she would have been thrown out.

This boy has vowed to not have a relationship in high school so I think he's putting his standards on other people. His mom is concerned about the company my daughter is keeping at school. She put the word cheerleaders in there. Ok, my daughter is a cheerleader. She's probably going to talk to some other cheerleaders! 

I am still so angry. I'm really trying hard not to say some really nasty things to them. But, I really just want to not have any contact with either person for a long time.

No one deserves to hear themselves or their child called trash. My daughter just told me that yesterday she was really having a hard time thinking that maybe she was awful and trashy. I told her I don't think so, and none of you do either! 

Kelly

 

(((Kelly and dd))))

I will say again: Do not ever allow someone to make an accusation who did not personally witness the offense. When your "friend" came to you and began tattling, as soon as you perceived that it was not she who had been the witness, that would have been the point where you put up your hand and told her to stop talking. I want you to really get this, because this may not be the first time in your life--or your daughter's--where something like this comes up, and you'll want to not let it happen again. It has happened to me more than once. ? As far as the woman made the accusation based on the ramblings of her son, well, is this someone at church? Because honestly, this would be something worth going to the pastor about. She is gossiping. Do you understand how seriously scripture takes gossiping? It's not just old ladies gossiping over the back fence about the neighbor's poor housekeeping skills; it is heinous. It is damaging your daughter's reputation, and causing anguish and crushing her spirit.

[Carrie12345]

6 hours ago, SquirrellyMama said:

 

No one deserves to hear themselves or their child called trash. My daughter just told me that yesterday she was really having a hard time thinking that maybe she was awful and trashy. I told her I don't think so, and none of you do either! 

Kelly

 

Oh, this poor girl!  Completely unacceptable!!!

I hope she can focus on the lovely memories she made with someone special to her, and not the ridiculously vile judgment with which some dumb kid tried to tarnish it.

And I'm going to quit teasing my almost-15 and almost-16yos for the pictures I saw of them with their dates at the spring dance the other day.  I don't want to unintentionally shame them for ENJOYING A DANCE! That's what I paid for them to do!

[ktgrok]

Hugs to her. She is NOT trash and no matter WHAT she ever does, will NEVER be trash. EVER.

She will in her life do things she later regrets. We all do. Or do things that she may not regret, but would no longer do. That's growing up. It's part of the process. But God doesn't make junk, and she is not trash. She is made in the image of God, and that s what she needs to remember. 

She's a lucky girl to have a mom like you. Hug her. Buy her a donut or a frappuccino or something. Do her hair. Tell her she is beautiful, and tell her about some of the boys you dated maybe. Tell her how much fun it is to be young, and that God knows that and loves her. 

And if that woman says ONE more word about it you tell her that you will NOT listen to malicious gossip. Period. 

I do believe malicious gossip is one of the worst sins there is, if not the worst. It causes terrible damage. And of course, the worst of it is always always spread with the person doing it thinking they are self righteous and doing "good". Thats how sin works. It takes a virtue and twists it to make it evil and ugly. Not everyone believes in the devil or a tempter or whatever, and I didn't as a child, but the more I live and see the stuff the more I do believe there is some bad voice out there encouraging this stuff. (or maybe I took the Screwtape Letters a bit too seriously, lol). 

Anyway, love and hugs to your daughter.