Classical school with tons of homework

[Janeway]

I have already bought many of the books for fall for home schooling my kindergartener, who will be in first this fall. I also have a second grader who will be in third. On a whim, I put my younger one on the waiting list for a classical school. Now, I am hearing a bunch from parents who had started their children at the school but then eventually pulled them out because the work is too much. I visited the classroom and it is very crowded in the first grade rooms. The children are not expected to be able to get up and move around. They are expected to stay at their desks with a lot of seat work and face the front and listen to lessons. The school day is seven and a half hours. After the school day, first graders always have twenty minutes of homework plus reading to do. The homework is always an additional math worksheet and handwriting and then more than that some times. When we were at the interview for the school, I asked if it would be possible to get the homework in advance so we could work ahead for those days when we cannot get to the work, for example, when we have something going on after school. I was told, very sternly, no. The point of the home work is not the content so much as it is to get the kids used to doing home work. OKay..I find that a bogus reason to give six year olds homework to do after sitting at a desk all day.  I am not going to have my six year old drive herself to school to get her used to morning traffic and driving. 

 

People fall all over themselves to get in to this school. Part of me feels like the home work might not be that big of a deal. But another part of me feels like this will be too much and she will be burned out before high school. My oldest who is there but at the high school tells me he thinks she should go. But he did not start until tenth grade. He did not have this kind of pressure at such a young age. I wonder if he would have been as successful if he had faced that kind of pressure in grade school. 

I have not given up her spot yet as I feel like I am missing something. People think this school is great. What do you think? Do you think most kids would just get in there and just do the homework because everyone else does? Or the sitting still at the desk all day and then facing a bunch of homework at night is more likely to just make school miserable? Anyone else deal with this?

[Mbelle]

I think it sounds like too much and cause burnout.  I guess it depends on your child though.

I did have my kids at a rigorous private Christian School in early elementary.  I still think it's a great school, but because of the issues you mentioned (and how much it cost) we left and began homeschooling.  At first at a 2 day a week hybrid school and then homeschooling for several years and now for high school back at the hybrid school.  My ds1 is a quick learner and when he was at the school he would finish his work quickly and be expected to sit at his desk while waiting for everyone to finish.  This was 1st grade and the teacher saw this as a "red flag" and said he needed to be held back.  That was just their answer to fidgety boys.  I could not agree, especially since he was doing so well academically, I wondered just how much more fidgety he would be repeating everything.  Also they had homework beginning in K.  You would be surprised how many families love homework.  Many of them wanted their children to have even more homework.  I think it's good to be at least 80% on board with the culture and expectations of the school or it will always be an awkward fit.

[8filltheheart]

I think the school does not understand cognitive development. Play is a huge factor in developing cognitive skills in young children. Sitting at desks for that long is the opposite of providing the best intellectual stimulation with high levels of future success as the goal.

Fwiw, I would not enroll my young kids in that type of environment.

[kiwik]

Run.  Unless the 7.5 hours includes about 2.5 hours free play it is crazy. Even then that day is too long.  It sounds more like they are setting the day to benefit working parents while ignoring the child's needs.

[Tanaqui]

Sounds to me like people think this school is great right up until they realize it isn't. That's why you know multiple people who have left, all with the same complaint.

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That and I think people conflate the need for early education outcomes for disadvantaged children with the need for ALL children to be plunked into school as early as possible.

 

NOT that early education for disadvantaged children should be dreary and miserable either. If anything, those kids need MORE free play and MORE trips and MORE storytime and art and music because their parents are presumably overworked and have a harder time doing this themselves.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Sometimes people think school was like this, back in the good ol' days. It is true that the one-room schoolhouse experience included long stretches of sitting, with a focus on the 3R's and strict discipline. I'm fine with that, as long as we remember the other pieces of the semi-mythical puzzle:

1. They only went to school for a few weeks at a time, and a few months total, per year.

2. Children got to stretch their legs on the way - walking barefoot uphill, both ways, in the snow - they weren't transported door to door in an SUV or schoolbus with nary a hop, skip, or a jump.

3. And recess was practically feral. 

4. And after school, they didn't have pressure-cooker activities, more time in the car, Happy Meals tossed at them over the back seat, and over-dependence on screens. They had physical activity and mental rest.

Not to mention the fact that this whole system did not begin at age 5 or 6. Dame schools in the colonial era, late starts in the pioneer era.

We've learned a few things about child development since then, and we've also created a more hectic, yet sedentary culture. There is no reason or benefit, in 2018, to stressing out little children at school. I don't care about so-called results (see the many expose' pieces on charter schools' fake numbers - they try to sell "rigor" but it's a sham, they just get rid of kids who can't do it), and I'm not impressed by so-called rigor. The children would learn a lot more, and be happier and healthier, out of that environment.

 

[Targhee]

To me, it sounds like too much for elementary students.  They *need* to move. And they *need* to play (not spend their time doing homework sheets after 7.5 hrs of seat work).

i think a restful, loving, early elementary better prepares a child to be diligent in later academics than pushing homework to younger ages.

If I were to only homeschool three contiguous years of school it would be 1st-3rd grades.

[Tanaqui]

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The people I know who have pushed back on the homework for their K and youngers have been told that the parents are asking for it, and have, after some questioning and following of neighborhood and school Facebook groups found it to be true.

 

I don't understand why, if homework is soooooo important to these parents, they can't just assign their own. I wish teachers would stand up to these parents and go "It's not developmentally appropriate, but nobody's stopping you from doing what you like at your own kitchen table, I guess" or even "Great, here's a packet, but it's optional. I'm not grading it!"

[MistyMountain]

My kids went to a similar school and it became too much. My one child got homework done fast in the early grades so it wasn't too bad but another took much longer especially doing it after spending such a long day at school already. Then in older grades they piled it on even more and it took too long for the one who is a fast worker. I pulled one and then the others. 

[Tanaqui]

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With all due respect, many parents here have been to public school before the current dumb down and are aware from their own successful schooling of what grade level is and what topics are supposed to be covered

 

You have an amazing faith in people's ability to accurately remember 12+ years of school.

I've heard some remarkable doozies from people, such as: "We didn't spend more than three days learning how to add and subtract!" and "I don't know why my second grader isn't doing long division with two digit divisors yet!" and "Nobody needs to know this stupid factoring business, we never learned that!" and, of course, endless variations on "Any method of instruction that does anything other than strictly memorizing the exact algorithms I memorized, with no explanation, is stupid and wrong".

In my experience, hardly anybody can remember with any accuracy what they learned in all of second grade, much less divide it into the beginning, middle, or end of the year. Heck, I only remember explicit instruction in a very few things: factorials, non-metric units, dividing fractions. I know we learned estimation, but what year did we start that? IDK. I know we learned how to switch to different bases sometime in middle school, but when? At some point I must've been taught what pi is and why I care, but heck if I could tell you whether it was summer or winter, much less if it was sixth, seventh, or eighth grade!

[Farrar]

Optional homework IS a thing at many elementary schools around here for K-2nd or 3rd grade kids. It's exactly as described above. Here's a packet that corresponds to what we're doing at school for extra practice if you or your kid want to do it. A friend with a kid in a public school told me her dd was always excited to do it but that from what she could tell only about half the kids did. They got a sticker or something if they did it, but nothing else. No effect on grades or anything.

All the data on homework for elementary school says that it does absolutely nothing. It does nothing for grades and nothing for tests results. It's a complete waste of time. One that costs families a great deal too - time, energy, etc. The only effective homework for elementary schoolers is asking them to read or read aloud with their families daily. That does have a positive effect on test scores.

I loathe the whole idea of doing something just so you can get used to it, especially at a younger and younger age. I mean, eventually, your first grader is going to have to pay the bills. She should probably have a full time job... just to get used to it. ?

[Mbelle]

3 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

 My husband's cousin teaches the 2nd grade and she says that she advises parents not to try to explain the concepts to their children because they will confuse the children. 

 

This is exactly what the teacher said to the Finch children in To Kill a Mockingbird in regards to reading.  

 

20 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I started modifying the activities to take less time and signing off on them. We also started to cheat a little bit by doing part of the work for my daughter, e.g. calculating the numeric "value" of the letters for her and she only had to write the words. It stopped the tears and my daughter went back to getting 100% on her spelling tests. 

I hesitated to suggest this earlier, but I used to just do my dd homework.  I found out other parents were doing it as well.  

 

[MerryAtHope]

I think the 7.5 hour school day is already ridiculous, even before adding on homework. Too much pressure and not developmentally appropriate. Add on to that crowded classrooms--no thanks! 

[Targhee]

3 hours ago, Mbelle said:

This is exactly what the teacher said to the Finch children in To Kill a Mockingbird in regards to reading.  

 

I hesitated to suggest this earlier, but I used to just do my dd homework.  I found out other parents were doing it as well.  

 

Wow. I’m not condemning the practice, I’m just saying wow. What does this speak to in our culture?

[Targhee]

On 5/21/2018 at 6:11 PM, Ordinary Shoes said:

Our biggest homework struggle is with spelling. Math is only once a week and my daughter never has issues with math. She has a spelling activity every night of the week and a test on friday. Spelling HW often led to tears. My daughter's spelling grade started to fall in January. I asked the teacher if we could do our own spelling activities instead of the assigned activities. The teacher refused. But I noticed that many of the activities were documented by the parent signing a form. I started modifying the activities to take less time and signing off on them. We also started to cheat a little bit by doing part of the work for my daughter, e.g. calculating the numeric "value" of the letters for her and she only had to write the words. It stopped the tears and my daughter went back to getting 100% on her spelling tests. 

Elementary school homework is at best a waste of time and at worst, actually harmful to children. 

 

I think this really can be true. But not universally.  The differences we’ve experienced in 3 different states is substantial.  In AK it was very much “back in the day” type school where they did 3Rs, had recess (well at least down to -20 * F), many kids didn’t start until age 8, and homework was minimal. Low pressure.  My DS has 1.5 HOURS of music every day in K - singing mostly, but playing drums, dancing, etc. And School didn’t start until 9 AM, had two recesses and a full hour of lunch, and got out at 2 PM. It was very age appropriate.

[carrierocha]

My daughter went to a school like this for kindergarten and 1st grade. It is how I was introduced to the classical model of education and WTM. We pulled her and opted to homeschool after thinking about it this way:

A "full load" for an adult is considered a 40-hour work week job. When we realized that our 6 year was in school for 37.5 hours per week, plus 2.5 hours or more of homework each week we decided that was crazy. What works for an adult is not appropriate for a child.

Yes, people trip over themselves to get into the classical charter school we were in. Bonus, it's 3 blocks from our house. But, no way. Insanity.

[Farrar]

2 hours ago, Targhee said:

Wow. I’m not condemning the practice, I’m just saying wow. What does this speak to in our culture?

I think it's so unfortunate, but I also can't condemn it. I mean, if I had no other options and my 5 or 6 yo was going to be penalized for not doing work that I knew to be ridiculous and a poor educational practice... I might just do it too. I think it's a nasty cycle though - it reinforces to the school that the kids can apparently handle it. They send home more work and more work and the load continues to be out of control. It's like the Peter Principle of homework or something: they'll keep sending more until your family life is properly broken.

As for whether parents want the work... I think some do. I think there's such a range of experiences. I met a family whose kids had been at a charter that refused to send home textbooks or homework or even notebooks. The mom wanted to know what was going on, how to help her kids, etc. They were like, we can't tell you because that wouldn't be fair for the kids whose parents don't have the ability to be involved. Um. Surely there's a middle ground to be found here.

I read recently that there's now so much educational jargon being used at really young ages that some schools spend time specifically drilling kids on the educational jargon they may see on standardized tests. It's just out of control. And it's not Common Core that mandates the jargon. That's the testing companies trying to keep things proprietary and tricky.

[Mbelle]

12 hours ago, Targhee said:

16 hours ago, Mbelle said:

 

Wow. I’m not condemning the practice, I’m just saying wow. What does this speak to in our culture?

I totally agree. I found out parents were doing not only homework, but the special projects that came up or were assigned as well.  I never could get on board with it.  I kept wondering why about all of it.  Still I remember talking to another mom and saying I though there was too much homework and she disagreed with me and said there needed to be more homework  

[Bluegoat]

11 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Homework came up today at work. One of my co-workers has a kindergartener. He said he was glad school was almost over so the homework struggles would stop. He also said that he hated the "common core" homework because he was afraid he was confusing his daughter because he didn't understand what they were trying to teach. I'm sorry but I just don't understand the claim that most (or even many) parents want homework so they can keep on top of things while actually being able to be on top of things. 

BTW, this Youtube video always makes me laugh. Homework Wine Pairings

 

 

Yes, it's really weird.  But it seems to be true that a lot of parents hate managing homework with their kids, and a lot think it's important.  And maybe some are even doing it themselves!   I find myself wondering to what extent the groups overlap.

[Janeway]

I think parents of grade schoolers who want more home work at the end of the day are shirking their responsibilities as parents and completely want the government to raise their children, even though they do not see it that way. They want the school to take care of and educate their children all day, then at the end of the day, they want the school to issue a schedule or list of things they must do in the evenings and on the weekends with the kids.  The parents I know send their children to things like piano lessons, Hebrew school, Korean school, Chinese school, violin, etc in the spare time as well as spend time with their children.  I, personally, already have my own things I like to do with my children and do not want their childhoods taken from me or them so that they can sit and do worksheets. I already decided that my daughter won't be going there. In first grade, it is 20 minutes plus reading every night. They do not allow kids to work ahead for a day when they cannot do the work and they get punished for not completing the work every day. They have the children for seven and a half hours a day with the only break being one recess. So yeah, I am not sending my daughter.