Need to process and plan re test results received (11yo in B&M school)

[SKL]

I asked the public schools to test my 11yo because I suspect learning disability or challenge in specific areas.  My daughter has average intelligence and generally does well in school, but she has a hard time acquiring new concepts, retaining over time, or applying old knowledge to new situations.  Reading is fine except that it's slow (possibly because of vision issues).  Math computation is fine.  Math concepts are falling farther and farther behind - at this point we are a year or two behind, though she will work her butt off to re-learn each topic to get good grades.  She also does poorly on tests/quizzes in the content areas because she doesn't remember what she studied.

The schools didn't have time to do a full analysis but did a couple of quick tests - WISC and an academic achievement test.  I'll summarize the WISC results by age equivalent (my daughter is 11:7)

• Verbal Comprehension - Similarities: 10:6
• Verbal Comprehension - Vocabulary: 12:6
• Visual Spatial - Block Design:  11:2
• Visual Spatial - Visual Puzzles:  6:2
• Fluid Reasoning - Matrix Reasoning:  7:2
• Fluid Reasoning - Figure Weights:  12:2
• Working Memory - Digit Span:  10:6
• Working Memory - Picture Span:  10:10
• Processing Speed - Coding:  11:2
• Processing Speed - Symbol Search:  11:2
•  

And the academic results:

• Math Concepts & Applications:  9:1
• Math Computation:  11:6
• Letter & Word Recognition:  11:2
• Reading Comprehension:  9:10
• Written Expression:  9:7
• Spelling:  10:2

 

With the exception of reading comprehension (on which she has always scored at or above average if not advanced), I think most of the above are fairly close to reality.  (Re reading comp, the tester did say she did better on fiction vs. nonfiction readings.  That is in line with experience.)

That said, what does this child need?  The school says there is not enough of a difference in the results to indicate a learning disability / need for any special ed services.  The summary says "any difficulties she may encounter in the classroom can be managed using general education accommodations at this time."  The special ed lady says we will have a meeting in August to discuss what to do.  I guess they are going to ask for my input, but I am not really sure what we need.  What options should I know about?  She gets a bit of tutoring time at school, but it is more homework help than anything else.  It doesn't really address the underlying problems.

Also, is there anything we should be doing over the summer?  I have her enrolled in Sylvan math tutoring for 2 hours per week all summer, as well as vision therapy and a couple short reading / study skills courses.  At home I plan on playing games and puzzles among other things.

 

[PeterPan]

Can't tell anything from age equivalents.

Her fluid reasoning and visual spatial scores are a mess. You just can't tell discrepancy from ages like that. Discrepancy is show by the standard deviations and those depend on the test. So on the WISC, your mean is 100 and your SD is 10, yes? Some states will look at discrepancy from IQ, others won't. So if her full scale or GAI IQ was say 110, they might look for 15-20 points of discrepancy from that, rather than the mean. Many ps want to see 1.5 SD of discrepancy to give a rip. Doesn't mean the kid doesn't have issues.

They didn't do language testing and you don't know what is causing the low fluid reasoning. Sounds like they basically want out and are punting you till fall, which leaves you hanging. She's staying in school? You're definitely wise to do the VT hard this summer and get through the visual processing stuff, and you might think about whether there are language issues. I don't know how they tackle fluid processing, but it's a big, big issue people talk about. Google site search the boards for it and see who works on it and how.

[SKL]

Sorry it hit "post" before I was ready.

[SKL]

26 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Can't tell anything from age equivalents.

Her fluid reasoning and visual spatial scores are a mess. You just can't tell discrepancy from ages like that. Discrepancy is show by the standard deviations and those depend on the test. So on the WISC, your mean is 100 and your SD is 10, yes? Some states will look at discrepancy from IQ, others won't. So if her full scale or GAI IQ was say 110, they might look for 15-20 points of discrepancy from that, rather than the mean. Many ps want to see 1.5 SD of discrepancy to give a rip. Doesn't mean the kid doesn't have issues.

They didn't do language testing and you don't know what is causing the low fluid reasoning. Sounds like they basically want out and are punting you till fall, which leaves you hanging. She's staying in school? You're definitely wise to do the VT hard this summer and get through the visual processing stuff, and you might think about whether there are language issues. I don't know how they tackle fluid processing, but it's a big, big issue people talk about. Google site search the boards for it and see who works on it and how.

I don't have standard deviation info.  The WISC percentiles given (which are very rough) were all 50%ile except:

• Verbal - similarities:  37%ile
• Verbal - vocabulary:  75%ile
• Visual puzzles:  2%ile
• Matrix reasoning:  9%ile

The achievement test provided %iles for all the areas, most between 25%ile and 61%ile, but math concepts/applications was 13%ile.

[PeterPan]

WISC5 standard deviations are 15. So 100 is the mean, 85 would be one SD down, 115 would be 1SD up. So if a school is looking for 1.5 SD as a cutoff, then they would want to see 1 1/2 of 15. WIAT pairs with the WISC I think, so for the achievement testing, same gig, 1 SD was 15.

So if they gave you standard scores, that's how you figure it out. You go ok on such and such was it more than 15+7 below the mean, 15+7 below her full scale or adjusted IQ. Also a discrepancy of 20 from other scores is considered significant. So like if that fluid reasoning is more than 20 apart from most of the other scores, then that's kind of a hmmm.

Did they run a screening tool for ADHD?

[SKL]

No standard scores are given for the "sub-tests," which are either ignored or averaged with other tests when computing standard scores.  So the lowest standard score was 84, but that does not reflect the fact that she did pretty awful on two of the sub-tests.

I need to find out what it means to school success if you are really bad at "matrix reasoning" and "visual puzzles."

Also I feel like there is a lot that the WISC does not consider.  ?

[SKL]

No ADHD screening.  I really don't think that is the issue.

[PeterPan]

Well mainly the thing with the 1.5 SD is to tell you why they will/will not qualify her for services. As you're seeing, a lot can be happening that is suboptimal. Now they did say they'll meet with you in the fall and discuss it further. That seems really good! I would take the things you saw are discrepantly low and research what consequences they have and how they are showing up in her academics. They'll say it needs to affect her ability to access her education. They could be showing up! They might be things where the IS (intervention specialist) does something via consultation so she gets more support, who knows.

It's really good that you're getting the VT. Hopefully those issues will be improved by the end of the summer. Her processing speed is good, so hopefully as it pairs with the VT skills she'll present a bit stronger.

[exercise_guru]

How is your private insurance? Any chance you could get a copy of these test results and get a private consult and advice?  Has dyslexia been ruled out?

I have an 11 year old as well so it can be challenging to find materials that help without them being too babyish. 

I would start with retained reflexes and Vision Therapy. 

Then I would try to get an assessment on language comprehension and expression. How is her handwriting and paragraph writing?  For the money ($800-1300) I think that fast forword is worth it if you do it through a private provider.( pm me and I can tell you who we went through)  Many kids jump several years in reading level by doing that. My son has CAPD and it was a profound help for him. 

The math may be vision related but it can also be working memory related. Her working memory was average so its more likely tied up in the spatial reasoning. 

If you keep her in school for fall I would work hard to get her on the front row,  the upper elementary grades are where the support drops off and it doesn't sound like she is getting any extra tutoring or group differentiation in the school now. That is only going to decline next year. In my sons school differentiation ends around 4rd grade so if they are behind they stay behind. 

I also would consider homeschooling for one year because this is the age where if they fall behind they do not have the support to catch up. If you can homeschool her it could be life changing. 

 

[SKL]

55 minutes ago, exercise_guru said:

How is your private insurance? Any chance you could get a copy of these test results and get a private consult and advice?  Has dyslexia been ruled out?

I have an 11 year old as well so it can be challenging to find materials that help without them being too babyish. 

I would start with retained reflexes and Vision Therapy. 

Then I would try to get an assessment on language comprehension and expression. How is her handwriting and paragraph writing?  For the money ($800-1300) I think that fast forword is worth it if you do it through a private provider.( pm me and I can tell you who we went through)  Many kids jump several years in reading level by doing that. My son has CAPD and it was a profound help for him. 

The math may be vision related but it can also be working memory related. Her working memory was average so its more likely tied up in the spatial reasoning. 

If you keep her in school for fall I would work hard to get her on the front row,  the upper elementary grades are where the support drops off and it doesn't sound like she is getting any extra tutoring or group differentiation in the school now. That is only going to decline next year. In my sons school differentiation ends around 4rd grade so if they are behind they stay behind. 

I also would consider homeschooling for one year because this is the age where if they fall behind they do not have the support to catch up. If you can homeschool her it could be life changing. 

 

Fast Forward sounds interesting, but it seems mostly focused on areas where my daughter is not behind.  Would they be able to target the specific areas that are weak?  I'm also ambivalent about the time investment - only because we already scheduled so much for the summer - it would have to be a "fun activity" in order to get my daughter's enthusiastic investment.  (Is it fun?)

Interesting that you mention retained reflexes.  My daughter was doing therapy for that back in 1st grade.  We sort of dropped out before we finished the whole program, but she supposedly worked out most of her issues.  Maybe I should schedule an assessment as it's located in the same place as VT.

Maybe this is just a fluke, but my daughter's cognitive test results seem to be decreasing over time.  In 1st grade I was told 101.  In 2nd it was 99 (different test though).  Now they say 97.  I won't deny that worries me a bit.

My daughter is also homozygous for MTHFR and we're trying to address that.  Supposedly it can cause learning problems.  I also suspect some anxiety in the mix.

[PeterPan]

A change of 4 points is not significant. The standard deviations tell you significance, because they show you the bell curve. So my ds dropped 30 points on his verbal IQ in from K5 to 3rd while also dropping significantly on verbal scores. THAT was significant. That got us a lawyer and helped us win stuff. 4 points is not anything to worry about. Was this WISC4 or WISC5 (the new one)? Some people are saying the change in tests saw shifts. But really, your dd's scores are stable. There's a range of confidence the psychs will look at. I'm not sure that was the term, but it was in some documentation with our last evals. They don't view a particular score absolutely but more like ok it's probably within this range and when we look at it as a range, then does it jive with everything else we know and make sense... And I think that was like +/-8 maybe? I don't have it in front of me. But basically a bit up, a bit down, that could change just with the day, with lunch, with the flies on the window.

For the anxiety, you might look at the TPH2 gene. That's the gene the PureEncapsulations/PureGenomics people cite when deciding about 5HTP. There might be more causes, but that's one. If you take up the 5HTP (like if it's low and you decide to add it), then you get the double joy of realizing it slurps up methyls (ie. you'll probably need to add a methyl donor) and that it can drive down the tyrosine levels (ie. her dopamine and hence attention). 

Fwiw my ds is considered ADHD, even though he's always had astonishing attention. I think his dopamine *seemed* fine because his 5HTP was low. We saw the genetics, moved that up, and then his attention got worse. Now we've added l-tyrosine to the mix and he finally seems pretty golden.

[exercise_guru]

I think it would be important to find out some feedback from the teacher. Does this child follow directions well? Writing reading, remember math facts? I have found that 4th and 5th grade is where the situation goes from " gosh my kid is a B student" to " gosh my kid is behind and no one is helping them" . In our school kids do not get special resources unless they have a severe diagnosis. A 504 can happen if there is medical documentation but its still spotty. 

I think you need someone to look at your daughter and provide a bigger picture of what is going on. Why is she not remembering things in math? Is she getting all the information" You mentioned Vision Therapy. What was the diagnosis? That alone may answer some of the math issues. 

This is sort of out of my specialty because my son had private testing and the Wisc along with the speech language pathologist and Audiologist were able to target specific very distinct areas my son needed help. His situation was primarily Auditory. He can remember what he sees but not what he hears. So I put all my energy in that direction.  

You say she can read would you consider doing the Barton screening? It might answer some questions. Is there anyone in your are that can help. 

I only know one thing that comes to mind. They did a study where they tried programs like fast forword for reading and then they also separated students and did 30 minutes daily of individual help and tutoring. The kids with tutoring achieved comparable improvements. This tells me that if she is easy to work with I would encourage you to spend 30 minute each morning working on making learning fun for her and catch her up. If by fall if she is still not catching it all and you can afford to then consider homeschooling. I don't want to scare you but my experience with my kiddos is that the year from 11 to 12 is when the window of cooperation started to close for me. My older daughters who are now in college were easy to homeschool until 13 and then it became far more difficult. 

I am working to get everything I can into my son over the next year in hopes of catching him up before junior high. 

 

[SKL]

Yes, I'm seeing the cooperation window slowly closing.  She is not keen to do extra work; she realizes her friends don't have to do it and she wants more time for her other interests.  She's usually pretty good about getting my help with homework, but she has been pretty adamant about not wanting summer homework this year.  ?

Home schooling is not something I'd seriously consider at this time.  My daughter enjoys school; she is very social and active.  She would really miss her peeps.

As far as your recommendations to look deeper into things, I just don't know who to go to.  I asked for referrals last year from the pediatrician, but they basically said you have to go through the school system.  I don't have a lot of faith in private psychologists based on experience with my other daughter.

[Ivey]

You mentioned that she has vision issues, and Matrix Reasoning and Visual Puzzles both rely heavily on visual perception (basically, she's asked to choose between similar-looking shapes to complete patterns for MR and puzzles for VP). I'm not sure whether this is something that vision therapy addresses, or whether there is any more testing you can do for these issues. Her vision therapist may have some insight into this? How were her scores in these areas when she was tested before? 

The school is right in saying that her academic scores are not low enough to consider a learning disability diagnosis, but the achievement measure they used was very brief. It looks like they gave her the KTEA, but didn't do any of the optional subtests (like phonological processing, nonsense word decoding, reading fluency, writing fluency, or math fact fluency) because her other scores were fine. If you think that she struggles with any of the areas they didn't test, I don't think it would be unreasonable to ask that they be administered. 

Is this your child who started school a year early? While it looks like most of her academic skills are age-appropriate, I can see how she would struggle to keep up with students who are 1-2 years older. Is there a possibility to take an extra year of middle school before beginning high school? In our area, I know of several families who've sent their kids to private school for a second year of 8th grade to give them extra time to mature. 

If you do decide to look into things more deeply, take the time to find a good neuropsychologist. It looks like the school did about 3 hours of testing, which is enough to determine whether she qualifies for an IEP in public school, but definitely not enough to get a full understanding of how she thinks and learns. 

[exercise_guru]

I have a few ideas for summer that don't involve school work. There is some good research that games like tetris really help with visual spatial. Basically something where she needs to slide and manipulate shapes. I also read about an improvement in visual tracking and reading using 3rd person games where the character moves from left to right ( Traditional Mario games), puzzles and legos are outstanding at this. Perler beads where they follow a pattern are good for both patterns and fine motor. For just improving writing  and language ( They weren't that low but this would boost them) see if you can get her a story journal to write in. Have her write a small story a day or dictate it to you.  Have her read but also checkout the audiobook. Let her listen to the story in the car and then read the next chapter at home. Or have her listen to more advanced stories. What book is she reading now because I have a lot of suggestions for that age range that would fit her reading level. 

Beyond that she definitely needs to catch up and stay caught up. For Math work on math facts addition,subtraction,multiplication and division. Find games to do that with. Just work on those 5 minutes in the morning. Have it be 80 percent stuff she is fast at and 20 percent tough ones. It builds speed and confidence. my son says they do a program at his school called iready which he hates but it reviews all the math concepts so you could look into a summer math computer program. 

Fluid reasoning is probably where you are seeing the issues with math. Its where you combine past knowledge to solve a new problem. I personally don't know if sylvan math tutororing would help unless she can work a few problems each day after tutoring. She needs practace to push that into longterm memory and she needs intense repetition to keep it there. Also in my case all boys learn math to figure out how much money they need to get their goal( my son calculates his money often because he is saving up for a game) Find a way to get those skills working in real life. Will you be home with her this summer? If so grocery shopping, saving up for a goal, 

At this point I think the very best thing you can do is meet with the teacher. Ask her if she could recomend something a camp or tutoring what would she recomend for summer? Specifically what skill does she feel your daughter would benefit from the most over the summer. 

Then the last thing is what motivates this girl? A new pair of earings? Money? Candy? Set up a reward system for participating in this and encourage and encourage and reward. Also if there is something she is good at or enjoys encourage that. My daughter loves art and so we did a lot of that this summer. 

In the fall I worked with my son 30 minutes before school it was on an area that he needed help. In our case that was fast forword ( grinding but effective) and hearbuilder Auditory Memory. For you it might be something else. 

as far as the ADHD can your daughter sustain attention on something she finds tedious? This is the biggest factor in deciding if it is inattentive ADHD which is underdiagnosed in girls. If this is the case Concerta would probably help significantly and be worth exploring. 

I still think it is worth considering working memory because remembering what you see and hear long enough to push it into longterm memory is critical to everything in school. I would have that tested a bit further . My son remembers what he sees but I have looked into cogmed which is all working memory. Its grinding like 45 minutes daily for the whole summer. I am still not sure I could pull it off but it is something I am considering . 

What I hate about the school system is I never know what my son is learning. Otherwise I could tutor at home and keep him caught up with just 30 minutes a night. I didn't have this problem homeschooling. Do you have a coop in your area so she could still have a social life? Is there a school she could go to that provides more help and differentiates learning to make sure that kids don't fall behind. These programs end in our area at 3rd or 4th grade except in IEP situations. It would break my heart if I had to homeschool my son because he loves the social aspect as well but I know it might be a real possibility. As a background I homeschooled my 2 oldest and loved it. My next girl loves to learn from anyone but me so she is in an advanced school taking college level classes at 14. My son needs school for the social aspect and I tutor him 30 minutes in the morning on auditory type stuff. Its more therapy than it is academic work. More top down stuff . 

 

[SKL]

I will try to be more intentional about finding practical ways for her to use math in the summer.  Yes, she is definitely motivated by money, LOL.  I think a lot of the games we have will also help with that.

As far as what book she's reading - the one she's reading for interest is Diary of a Teenage Girl.  It's slow going because she has so much homework, sports practice etc.  She really doesn't like the work of reading but is interested in the content.  We do listen to audiobooks regularly.

Our camps are already set up for summer - around here, you have to sign up in February to get anything good.  Most of them are either directly or indirectly academic.  They don't really have any "math camps" around here for her age.

I assumed that Sylvan would include problem solving in the math tutoring ... maybe I should ask for more information.

Computer games that sneakily teach the needed skills would be great.  I will see about Tetris ....

[SKL]

Interesting ... this daughter has always had an antipathy for crafts, puzzles, legos ... just not interested at all.  Perhaps the vision issues or whatever other mental disconnect made it too difficult to be worth it.  My other kid loves all of these, so our house has always been full of them, but no interest.

Maybe I should get her involved in planning (blueprinting) a structure to build for a dog that we plan to get in the future.  She enjoys planning and loves animals ....

[Kanin]

A lot of kids at my private school start in 6th or 7th grade, after they can't use their hard work and study skills to keep up with a disability. If your daughter has mild dyslexia and/or dyscalculia, those problems will be harder to overcome with determination as time goes on. If you can afford it, I highly, highly recommend getting an evaluation from an outside provider. You'll come away with a 20 page, extremely detailed report with recommendations. 

As far as reading goes, you said she reads well but is slow. Slow reading will impact comprehension, because she's slowly decoding and spending a lot of mental effort in figuring out the words, and then not being able to understand because it's difficult to keep tabs on what is happening. You could see if she does better on a comprehension quiz with a nonfiction passage read by you vs. a nonfiction passage read to herself. 

For math, I'm not sure Sylvan is a really good value. You should find out the qualifications of the tutors there. A person with a B.A. in something, or even a current college student, won't have any training that will help a child with a potential learning disability. If you can cajole/bribe/motivate her in some way, and you think you're a good tutor, I'd get her on board with 2 hours of tutoring at home, maybe 20 minutes a day. If she is having trouble with concepts vs. calculation, I think you should go with hands-on materials (manipulatives), drawing pictures of problems, talking about the vocabulary involved, etc. For example, she may not know what to do in a problem that says something like, "A big dog is 50 pounds and a smaller dog is 18 pounds. How much heavier is the bigger dog?" My students with dyscalculia struggle mightily with visualizing that (and understanding the vocabulary). 

I could go on and on about math stuff  ? Let me know if more info would be helpful.

[geodob]

The Matrix Reasoning and Visual Puzzles sub-tests, are a test of the ability to think in sequences.

Which is a different type of thinking?  That uses a thinking process, that goes 'back and forth'. Rather than from 'beginning to end'.

For example: 6+3+4-2= ? As opposed to:  7+4-?+6=12.   Where we are given the answer, and then have to work out how to arrive at. But we can't use 'beginning to end' thinking, to work it out.  Rather we have to go back and forth, to work it out. 

While 7+4-?+6=12 has one solution.  We can also introduce a 'variable' into this:  7+4-(?+?)+6=12.  With many solutions.

With the Matrix Reasoning and Visual Puzzles sub-tests, they use icons instead of numbers. As this 'thinking process', isn't limited to numbers. It is a way of thinking. Where we can start with an 'outcome/ answer', and then explore different ways to arrive at it. 

Though I can direct you to a free website, where she could practice visual sequencing.  That has 3 levels of difficulty.  Maybe you could try it out yourself, first?

http://www.shodor.org/interactivate/activities/PatternGenerator/