Do you base high school graduation requirements on local ps standards?

[Innisfree]

For example, if local public school students are required to do math through Algebra 2, would you feel that you could not award your student a standard diploma without passing Algebra 2?

Assume multiple documented disabilities which affect academic performance, but not intellectual disability. Not 2e, though, either. Further education goals would be some community college for career certifications or, as a stretch, maybe an AA degree some day, but not a typical 4-year college plan. Honestly, though, I could see this kid finding a basic job after high school and continuing with that long-term.

I'm trying to figure out where we'll be several years down the road, so maybe the algebra will end up being manageable. But if not, or if, say, typical lab sciences turn out to not be something we can do, how much flexibility is generally accepted for homeschoolers? I know that in practice, there's a huge range. But I'm trying to figure out what is responsible and moral.

I think the best path for this student would be a firm grounding in math fundamentals and personal finance math, and more time spent on work experience and addressing areas which are weak because of the disabilities. I can do that. But at what point does it mean issuing some sort of non-standard diploma? 

 

[Lecka]

It will totally depend on your state as far as what happens with public school students.  Where we currently live my younger son is extremely unlikely to be able to get a standard diploma, it is known as one of the strictest or the strictest state in the country for regular diplomas.

But a lot of states aren't like that, and we expect to move back to a state where we expect him to receive a regular diploma. 

So even what is happening in public schools varies so much by state. 

I don't know what homeschoolers decide. 

 

[Innisfree]

Yes, our locality, and maybe state, does require the algebra 2. This is where we will be throughout her school years. What I'm trying to figure out is whether that means, assuming we continue to homeschool, we need to be just as strict.

[Julie of KY]

Generally, assuming your state laws are not different, YOU as the homeschool administrator decide the requirements to graduate from your homeschool. It's a good idea to follow what the public schools do, but as stated above it varies significantly. 

I wouldn't grant a diploma if the student can't meet the basic standards of what is expected of a high school graduate. That said, I'm impressively disappointed at how bad the math skills are of some of the students graduating in my area. They certainly couldn't pass my standard of algebra 2. 

... in other words it's very subjective.

[Lecka]

I think it’s subjective, but I think there are also common practices that vary by (I think) state for how they decide to handle students who aren’t going to be able to meet their standards for a high school diploma.

There are plenty who have some alternative track that, if they think students have complied with that alternative track, they will still give a regular diploma.

Others do not.

So maybe in your state they have a strict standard for what it means to complete Algebra II.  Or maybe they are okay if someone does an alternative that they have said is acceptable.  

Because there are really different ways to look at it, and there are different groups of kids who are hurt or helped either way.

In general ———— there are things that are very harmful to able minority students who get shunted into low-level classes and it’s “okay.”  And then on the other side there are disabled students who could really benefit from a standard diploma.  But unfortunately sometimes able students get lumped in with disabled students and it is really not good.  As far as I can tell that is the issue, to some extent, and states decide which is the lesser of two evils to them.  At least that is my current impression.  

[mschickie]

In many states the requirements for homeschoolers differ from the public school.  In NYS a homeschooler only needs to complete 2 units of math and a public school student needs to take 3 units.  You would need to do what is minimally required for homeschoolers.  If your child is planning on attending a community college then the minimum standards should be fine.  If they child needs more math they will have the opportunity to take courses there to bring them up to where they need to be for whatever certificate or degree they are pursuing.  I would check with the local community college to see if they have any admission requirements and talk to the admissions department.

[Innisfree]

The legal state requirements for homeschool do not define any particular standards for graduation. Homeschoolers must either pass yearly tests or show adequate progress in a portfolio review, but there are no particular standards outlined for that portfolio. So, assume that the standards for public school students to graduate are clear and at least somewhat rigorous, but the standards for homeschool *graduation* are not defined at all. The only standard is "adequate progress", which I know is interpreted very differently by different homeschoolers. 

The community college does not require high school graduation of any sort. They have remedial courses for those who need it, and test to place people at the proper level.

So, the only question really is what standards I decide I ought to enforce. It's hard to imagine telling dd she isn't going to qualify for a standard diploma. But I also don't want to award one of it's not appropriate. This is purely theoretical at the moment, but she's approaching eighth grade, so a trajectory is visible which will require some hard decisions. 

[shinyhappypeople]

I've come to the place where I couldn't possibly care less what the public schools are doing.  I'm in California where I have the freedom to design our own graduation requirements so I'm considering what will serve my daughter best in life.  I'm guided by practicality.  What will she use?  I'm not willing to waste her time with math that she's unlikely to ever need.  She has some significant LDs but is not intellectually disabled.  She also has zero interest in college or a career that would require higher math. 

Thus, she will be MUCH better served by a simple intro to algebra and geometry followed by lots of work in personal finance and business math.

I figure if she ends up wanting to pursue college at some point she can go to community college and sign up for remedial math along with all the other high school grads from conventional schools who've already forgotten their Algebra 2.

My younger daughter is her own person with her own trajectory that will likely include a more traditional math sequence.   

[Innisfree]

2 minutes ago, shinyhappypeople said:

I've come to the place where I couldn't possibly care less what the public schools are doing.  I'm in California where I have the freedom to design our own graduation requirements so I'm considering what will serve my daughter best in life.  I'm guided by practicality.  What will she use?  I'm not willing to waste her time with math that she's unlikely to ever need.  She has some significant LDs but is not intellectually disabled.  She also has zero interest in college or a career that would require higher math. 

Thus, she will be MUCH better served by a simple intro to algebra and geometry followed by lots of work in personal finance and business math.

I figure if she ends up wanting to pursue college at some point she can go to community college and sign up for remedial math along with all the other high school grads from conventional schools who've already forgotten their Algebra 2.

My younger daughter is her own person with her own trajectory that will likely include a more traditional math sequence.   

This is exactly what I'd like to do. Maybe I just need to hear that it's okay as an option. 

[shinyhappypeople]

1 hour ago, Innisfree said:

This is exactly what I'd like to do. Maybe I just need to hear that it's okay as an option. 

It's okay as an option.  Listen to your gut, and do what honors your child as an individual.  

[rdj2027]

I looked at college entrance requirements from various colleges and universities and covered those.  They will have 4*5 +2 (math, English, science, social science, foreign language plus fine arts and PE times 4 years) and after that they can do whatever they wish for their electives.

I do have to say that ours are all in college or headed for college.  If I had a student with disabilities or one who is not academically inclined, I would have pursuit a different path and required more in the scheme of vo-tech classes and a job/volunteering as an extracurricular activity.

[RootAnn]

3 hours ago, Innisfree said:

This is exactly what I'd like to do. Maybe I just need to hear that it's okay as an option. 

 It is ok as an option.

My state does not have public school graduation requirements. They are set school district by school district. My local p.s. gives out regular diplomas as long as the student hasn't failed a required class per their standards. They don't list specific math or science classes, only credits. Three science, three math, four English, etc. As long as you can pass the class you signed up for, you get a diploma. There is no differentiation of diplomas to my knowledge.

My neighbor's daughter graduated several years back. I'm not sure what happened with her college application because it should have been obvious before she registered for classes, but the college was upset she was allowed to graduate without taking several important (to the college) classes. I didn't get details, but I think upper level math (Alg 2) was one of them. She was a sports scholarship recipient, so the college let her in anyway. (Parents didn't pay attention, assuming the school knew what they were doing.)

[MerryAtHope]

4 hours ago, Innisfree said:

For example, if local public school students are required to do math through Algebra 2, would you feel that you could not award your student a standard diploma without passing Algebra 2?

 

If a student did math diligently all 4 years and only got through Alg 1, Geometry, and personal finance, I don't think I would deny a standard diploma on that basis alone. I'd spend 2 years on Alg 1 if needed etc...

Here's a link that supposedly has the requirements for all states listed. It's interesting how many states don't specify what math courses need to be taken, and even how many only say 2 years. 

Community colleges offer remedial courses in math, reading, and writing for a reason--it fills in gaps for students who need help (or additional time for brain development to kick in--often happens for kids with ADHD and some other learning disabilities). A student might need a remedial course before completing a certification in some cases--cross that bridge when you come to it though.

If I was seeing significant deficits in many areas for a capable kid, I would consider 5 years of high school.

I would not issue an alternate diploma unless I saw significant reason to. It seems like there would be a number of drawbacks, and I'd want to have a really strong reason for not issuing a standard diploma. (If she was in public high school and could get C's or D's in the courses you are worried about, she could get a standard diploma. I know as homeschoolers we don't go for teaching that way though! Just make sure your standards aren't putting things too far out of reach for her, if that makes sense.) Here's one brochure about non-standard diplomas for some "starter" information. And also: Graduation Requirements and Diploma Options:What Families Need to Know.

4 hours ago, Innisfree said:

Assume multiple documented disabilities which affect academic performance, but not intellectual disability. Not 2e, though, either. Further education goals would be some community college for career certifications or, as a stretch, maybe an AA degree some day, but not a typical 4-year college plan. Honestly, though, I could see this kid finding a basic job after high school and continuing with that long-term.

 

It sounds like a high school diploma would be in this student's best interests then, and that there may not be a significant reason to withhold one. 

4 hours ago, Innisfree said:

I'm trying to figure out where we'll be several years down the road, so maybe the algebra will end up being manageable. But if not, or if, say, typical lab sciences turn out to not be something we can do, how much flexibility is generally accepted for homeschoolers? I know that in practice, there's a huge range. But I'm trying to figure out what is responsible and moral.

 

There's a ton of variance in what constitutes a "lab science." It doesn't have to be the traditional biology-chemistry route, for example. I did decide for us that biology was a minimum, but I didn't require chemistry as one of the three sciences for my non-sciency, non-mathy kid. You also don't necessarily have to do a certain number of labs. Do one a month. Or take 1-2 days over the summer (or during the school year) and knock out all the labs at once. (We found it very convenient to do dissections this way for example--we took a school day and *just* did those--one set-up, one clean-up, and it was nice to not have to switch gears to something else.) Some people do virtual dissections or just watch one and focus on other labs for biology. Labs can be really good if you have a hands-on learner though, but I don't find they are all that difficult to actually do. It's more a matter of finding the time and having the impetus (which is another reason why doing a bunch of labs on one or two days can work!)

 

4 hours ago, Innisfree said:

I think the best path for this student would be a firm grounding in math fundamentals and personal finance math, and more time spent on work experience and addressing areas which are weak because of the disabilities. I can do that. But at what point does it mean issuing some sort of non-standard diploma?

 

Inability to complete coursework in multiple areas--not just 1.

There's really a lot of room for electives, working on voc-ed etc... while completing the "bare minimum" for a standard diploma. (HSLDA lays out 3 plans including a "standard" not college prep type of plan. They do include foreign language on it, and I'd bet many states don't require that for a standard diploma. If you do 4 years English, 4 years Math, 2 years each of history and science, 1 year of fine arts--you've got a lot of time left to work on voc-ed and interests, and wiggle-room within those major subject areas to work on weaknesses. Keep reading aloud and/or including audio books to keep expanding her knowledge and vocabulary. 

So much changes over the high school years though!

[Jane Elliot]

4 hours ago, shinyhappypeople said:

It's okay as an option.  Listen to your gut, and do what honors your child as an individual.  

Absolutely right! This is very well-said, Shinyhappypeople! 

And if you need some encouragement, read The End of Average. 

[Lori D.]

6 hours ago, Innisfree said:

For example, if local public school students are required to do math through Algebra 2, would you feel that you could not award your student a standard diploma without passing Algebra 2? ...But at what point does it mean issuing some sort of non-standard diploma? 

First, there are still a few small liberal arts colleges that only require math credits of Algebra 1 and Geometry for admission. And second, a number of states offer two different public school diplomas -- a college prep one, and a non-college prep one (which has lighter math credit requirements and more alternative math options). Neither is considered a "non-standard diploma" -- both are standard diplomas, with each showing completion of a different educational "track" choice.

So unless you live in a state or area that requires specific credits for you to graduate your homeschool student with a parent-awarded diploma, you, the parent administrator of your homeschool, determine the graduation requirements for your student -- the set of credits your student needs to accomplish in order to graduate. So you line up the set of credits that are in this individual student's best interests as what you will require for graduation and a diploma, follow the math path that works best for the student if front of you, and at the end of 12th grade, if the credits have been accomplished, make the transcript and award the diploma. There is no "standard" or "non-standard" to worry about.

7 hours ago, Innisfree said:

For example, if local public school students are required to do math through Algebra 2, would you feel that you could not award your student a standard diploma without passing Algebra 2? ...I'm trying to figure out where we'll be several years down the road, so maybe the algebra will end up being manageable... I think the best path for this student would be a firm grounding in math fundamentals and personal finance math, and more time spent on work experience and addressing areas which are weak because of the disabilities. I can do that...

As far as getting through Algebra 2 -- it may be a reasonable goal. Just to encourage you, our DS#2 has mild LDs in abstract math topics, so Alg. 1 and 2 were a real effort to accomplish here. Each took 1.5 years, and that was with using MUS, the lightest program, and most visual program to help make the abstract topics more concrete for DS#2. He also had 2 other math credits: Geometry and Consumer Math, plus we went through a personal finance program as part of the Economic credit. 

7 hours ago, Innisfree said:

For example... if ... typical lab sciences turn out to not be something we can do, how much flexibility is generally accepted for homeschoolers? I know that in practice, there's a huge range. But I'm trying to figure out what is responsible and moral.

re: Science:
Just because a student isn't interested in science or in going into a future science field doesn't mean you still can't do 3 credits of science -- just go for a topic that is of more interest to the student, such as: Equine (Horse) Science, Zoology (Animals), Botany (Plants), Horticulture/Agriculture, Earth Science or Geology, Astronomy, Ecology, Environmental Science, Meteorology (Weather), etc. Even Integrated Science is an option. And even though it would be a very atypical Science (normally it's considered Engineering), you could even really stretch and count something like Robotics or building things as one of the Science credits. 

As far as doing Science credits with no labs -- there are loads of ways of making labs happen:
- watch virtual labs
- do labs once every few weeks with a fellow homeschooler
- hire (or barter/trade) a tutor once a month to oversee a lab or two
- buy and do a ready-to-go homeschool lab kit 
- take science at the local high school (if your district allows homeschoolers to take 1 or 2 classes)

7 hours ago, Innisfree said:

...But I'm trying to figure out what is responsible and moral.

Each family has to determine what that means for them. For me, it meant keeping as many future doors open for my academic-hating student with mild LDs in all 3 of the "3Rs" (Math, Writing, Spelling, and a bit with Reading). For me, that meant blending the local high school credits (in case we ended up unexpectedly having to put DSs into B&M school) plus the admission requirements for the universities in our state to come up with our homeschool graduation credits: a minimum of:
4 credits English
4 credits Math (up through Alg. 2)
3 credits Science, with labs
3 credits Soc. Studies (Amer Hist. and 0.5 credit each of Econ & Gov.t)
2 credits For. Lang.
1 credit Fine Arts
4+ Electives
21 credits = total minimum

Both DSs ended up with the above college prep credits, and a total of over 24 credits each, and they had a lot of flexibility about credits. That's the nice thing about homeschooling -- you can do those credits with the light, average, or rigorous programs that are the best fit for the student, and you can do the credits with a focus that supports your student's interests or possible future career bent, and you can do them in a flexible way that fits your family needs. For example, we did 3 Science credits, but spread them out over the 4 years of high school. For DS#2, because of his LDs in Writing and Spelling, we went with ASL for his Foreign Language, and did the minimal college prep amount of credits -- 2 credits (2 semesters of dual enrolled ASL at the local CC, as 1 semester of college ASL = 1 full credit of high school foreign language)...

BEST of luck as you plan for your DS's high school and beyond. : ) Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Innisfree]

Thanks, everyone. You're making me feel better about the possibilities here.

[happypamama]

Nope, not at all.  My state has a set of homeschool diploma requirements and a set of public school diploma requirements, and there is some overlap, but I definitely don't go by what the school says.