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Not Worrying About Adult Kids Out Late

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8 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Am I the only one who has Life 360?

We have it. My kids know I'm not checking up on them, it's just for anxiety on my part lol and they can use it on me too (e.g. Mom, did you go to Coldstone AGAIN?!?)

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58 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:


I have to say I found the control over adults odd, too.  My oldest is in college.  Well, at the moment he's on break.  But when he's home, the rule is the same as for my husband and myself: be safe.  Let us know when to expect you/where you're going.  Be respectful of the rest of the house.

An adult must be treated as an adult if we expect them to grow and become self sufficient people.  By focusing on basic safety and manners, we can help them achieve that.  I cannot fathom leashing my 19yo and then expecting him to be a grown up.  Parenthood doesn't work that way, at least not in healthy relationships.

See you are using words like 'control' and 'leashing' when that is not accurate at all.  My son has a lot of freedom.  He goes where he wants, when he wants. And he has for most of his senior year---he isn't even graduated high school yet.  We consider it a matter of common courtesy to use technology to be able to find see where each other are.  I never comment or ask him and honestly I rarely even check where he is unless it has gotten late and I wonder if he is driving home or if I can still text him.  

But different families do things differently.  

 

OP is having a terrible not worrying about her dd while she is home for summer.  Life 360 would help.  I just made a suggestion.  Sorry GB to derail your thread.

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On 5/6/2018 at 9:56 AM, Halftime Hope said:

I had much the same with adult kids home for breaks and before moved out. 

Convo with adult offspring:

1) Text if plans change, that way we'll know what's going on.  (I'll turn off text notifications when I go to bed, but I'm leaving the ringer on, so you can call if you need help.)  Keeping each other informed is our family culture; thank you for respecting it since you are back under our roof.

2) When you get in, turn off the hall light. When I wake up in the middle of the night, I'll need to know you're safe. No light means I can tell you're in without getting out of bed and--heaven forbid--waking your father.  (That mom-alert-brain thing is somewhat inexplicable, but it's real, and you need to be courteous about it, even if it's not entirely logical.  You'll understand when you have independent kids of your own.)

3) If I wake up and the light is still on, I can check messages to see that you've updated us, and I'll know if you're OK or if you are out later than even you expected.  I may choose to check on you (via text), depending on the circumstances.

Good luck; it's a tricky balance.  Keeping people who loved you informed is not a heavy burden to bear.

ETA:  the last time dd and her hubby were here, they were going out late with friends, and I kept my mouth shut.  They are thoroughly adults, and while it was still a bit hard on me having them out late, I thought it would be best to stand down.  I've done my job, doing my best to protect them in their formative years, so now I needed to let go.

 

 

 

 

 

To the bolded, yes, I agree.

And to your Edit...Yes I also agree.  If she has and is out with  a husband I would definitely stand down.

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10 hours ago, HeighHo said:

 

Whatever works for your family is fine, its your family.  We are working people, as are some of our neighbors...we have neighborhood noise restrictions and have already experienced the social scene of  midweek 2 a.m. car doors slamming, dogs barking, engines revving, 20somethings F*ing this and that all night long as they drink, drug, and have sex in the backyard of the neighbor' homes, so we aren't allowing any version of that out of respect to our other neighbors and ourselves. 

 

 

I'm sorry that's been your experience with young adults out past ten! That sounds truly awful and frustrating. We've never experienced anything resembling that and I really have no concerns that my 21-year-old would ever act in such a way. Even at midnight.

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Personally we don't think a curfew for an adult is reasonable.  Yes, my house, we could force the issue, and she would likely accommodate, or possibly decide she needs to find her own place.    I don't see a benefit in forcing the issue.  

I have my own emotional attachments and ideas about her that need to be adjusted now that she is an adult.  Just because she lives in my house doesn't make it right for me to control her as an adult, even if I *could* do so because of whatever leverages I have over her.  To keep a check on myself, I try to think of it in terms of an adult roommate, and what would be appropriate to ask of them or expect from them.

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I probably will ask her if she would mind turning the 360 back on while she is home for summer.  But I she doesn't want to, I don't plan on questioning it.  Honestly, I know another couple that the wife doesn't even like her husband checking her on 360.  He would say oh, so how was ice cream today... She felt uncomfortable with it, like she was being followed or controlled, even though that wasn't his intention.  I don't feel that way, but I can see especially why a newly independent adult *might*.  

 

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My oldest is only 16yo, so I am assuming our processes will change in the next couple of years.  When she first started going out without us (boyfriend driving her before she was 16yo), I would set an alarm for about 5 minutes after the time she was supposed to be home. When she got home, she would wake me up and I would turn off the alarm. Theoretically, if the alarm wasn't turned off, I would wake up and check in with her.  Similar process as to the hall light, and I might steal the hall light idea if the rest of the family could comply. :)

We don't have a set curfew beyond whatever legal limitations she has as a 16yo driver. She self-regulates very well based on her schedule, and I don't wait up for her anymore.  She keeps me updated on her evening plans, she has good friends, and she makes wise choices. Unless something changes in her judgment over the next two years, I don't see us implementing stricter requirements now or when she becomes an adult. 

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10 hours ago, goldberry said:

I probably will ask her if she would mind turning the 360 back on while she is home for summer.  But I she doesn't want to, I don't plan on questioning it.  Honestly, I know another couple that the wife doesn't even like her husband checking her on 360.  He would say oh, so how was ice cream today... She felt uncomfortable with it, like she was being followed or controlled, even though that wasn't his intention.  I don't feel that way, but I can see especially why a newly independent adult *might*.  

 

I am very mindful of it with my almost adult son (I mean he is 18 but not even out of high school so is he even really an adult?) I don't comment on his whereabouts at all.  And I rarely look. But man when it is late and you are worried it is better to be able to see where they are than call or text them and risk them looking at a text while they are driving.   

Dh and I look at each other's often.  But we don't usually annoy each other about it.   He might be annoyed when I text him and say 'get out of LOWES now!  Stop spending money!'  LOL

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10 hours ago, goldberry said:

Personally we don't think a curfew for an adult is reasonable.  Yes, my house, we could force the issue, and she would likely accommodate, or possibly decide she needs to find her own place.    I don't see a benefit in forcing the issue.  

I have my own emotional attachments and ideas about her that need to be adjusted now that she is an adult.  Just because she lives in my house doesn't make it right for me to control her as an adult, even if I *could* do so because of whatever leverages I have over her.  To keep a check on myself, I try to think of it in terms of an adult roommate, and what would be appropriate to ask of them or expect from them.

An adult room mate would be paying me money or sharing the bills.  Paying one's own way is a big part of what makes an adult.

And I am not saying you are 'wrong'....just giving my thoughts and reasoning on it.  Because ds and I have had these discussions before....he asks me what I would do if I had a roommate.....so I have thought about it a lot.  I wouldn't have a room mate that disrupted my sleep.  But the fact is ds isn't a 'roommate'  He is my son, and 18 is not some magic age that makes him a roommate.  I am working to get him launched and fully independent in all ways but he is not there yet.  So a young adult child is really in a unique category.

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44 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

So a young adult child is really in a unique category.

 

This is very true.  There is no magic age, but it's a transition.  We are all navigating it as best we can.  It's good to be assessing/evaluating our responses as we go along.  No they're not roommates, but thinking in those terms keeps me from going too overboard.  It's a good counterbalance.

My niece got pregnant several years ago, had a son, and moved back in with my sister for awhile.  It was wonderful that my sister could help her, but she basically started treating her like a child again, interfered with her parenting decisions, etc. The attitude was, "I'm helping you so I get to tell you what to do".  Of course there should be boundaries, but an adult needing help doesn't automatically make them a child again, ya know?  I've also seen too many kids run to be out on their own because they were not being treated respectfully at home, were still being treated as children.  One young man was 20, and his parents still gave him a curfew and wanted to "approve" who he was out with.  It was not to the kid's benefit they ran out before they were ready.  It's always kind of a dance back and forth...

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Just now, goldberry said:

 

This is very true.  There is no magic age, but it's a transition.  We are all navigating it as best we can.  It's good to be assessing/evaluating our responses as we go along.  No they're not roommates, but thinking in those terms keeps me from going too overboard.  It's a good counterbalance.

My niece got pregnant several years ago, had a son, and moved back in with my sister for awhile.  It was wonderful that my sister could help her, but she basically started treating her like a child again, interfered with her parenting decisions, etc. The attitude was, "I'm helping you so I get to tell you what to do".  Of course there should be boundaries, but an adult needing help doesn't automatically make them a child again, ya know?  I've also seen too many kids run to be out on their own because they were not being treated respectfully at home, were still being treated as children.  One young man was 20, and his parents still gave him a curfew and wanted to "approve" who he was out with.  It was not to their benefit they ran out before they were ready.  It's always kind of a dance back and forth...

Agree.  

BTW,  just to test my theory and resolve apparently my son broke curfew last night.  Was suppose to be home at 10:30 and got home a few minutes after midnight.  I was so irritated and my sleep was ruined and I don't feel well to begin with.....I was happy though that when I woke up at 11:58 I could see on Life 360 that he was a few minutes from home.  So yes we will be keeping Life 360 and I am not sure what I am going to do about him breaking curfew because I am just not going to tolerate this but as you say I don't want to shove him out the door by being unyielding.  

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A big part of this has to do with geography and local economy.  If you are in a high cost of living area your child might be close to 30 before they can responsibly move out without taking on debt.  The way you treat a 25 year old living at home for economic reasons and the way you treat a 17-19 year old are worlds apart.  Especially when the 19 year old lives in a low cost of living area where they could easily rent a 2 bedroom apartment for less than $400 per month (utilities included) , or rent a 3 bedroom 1500 sq ft home for about $600 per month, but for whatever reason aren't interested in both going to school and having a part time job to cover their share of rent with a room mate. Those were the rents in one of the more expensive areas of Oklahoma when we lived there a couple years back. I am under the impression most areas there are cheaper.  In areas where them choosing to remain a child and let their parents be responsible for them is part of the equation it will naturally follow that they'll still be treated like a child.  They essentially ARE a child, and they have plenty of options available to them if/when they choose to grow up.  Including paying parents rent, groceries, and utilities to be treated more like a responsible adult.

Obviously the equation is different if there is a health crisis, a pregnancy, or some other thing going on that compels an adult into moving back in with their parents or never moving out to begin with.

I have a nephew who lives in a low cost of living area in Florida.  When he was in high school he was able to find a summer construction job, and by the time he graduated he had enough savings to build his own home (with cash!) on a lot that was a gift from his parents, they broke it off from their large acreage. By the time he was 19 he'd built a new 3/2 home and had proven himself responsible enough that he supervised a work crew for the contractor. He went back to school at nights and was a licensed independent contractor before the age of 30. In many areas the economy simply wouldn't allow a kid to do this, no matter how bright, motivated, or responsible they were.  No one was treating that 19 year old like a child.  He wasn't.  He was a man.

As an aside, most of my extended family uses iPhones and we all have Find My Friend turned on. No one has abused the privilege and we all find it helpful when traveling or on road trips.  Previously we'd do things like call every 50 miles at certain mile markers so family would know where to tell Sheriffs departments where someone disappeared. Sometimes this creates a few awkward conversations, "There was a problem with the app when you were South of Kansas City.  It looked like you were stopped at an off ramp for 10 minutes."  "Well I was stopped, the traffic was too bad to eat and drive and I was too hungry to skip lunch."  But mostly we only monitor others if we're meeting them within 20 minutes, we're on a road trip, or are worried about someone on an icy day. None of us has anything to hide.  At the same time, we don't have any abusive or overly controlling personalities in the family or we'd need to rethink it.

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20 hours ago, Tsuga said:

Adult me would love that. Total omnipotence about my children!

My inner teenager has already thought of a way around it. I'm going to get a social phone and have my calls forwarded there from my first phone. The first phone stays at my friend's house. Voila. Mom's happy, I'm happy... what she doesn't know won't hurt her. And my kids are even smarter than me so forget it, why should we all waste money on apps and ways to get around them, lol.

Life 360 would be great for a middle schooler with no disposable income. Once you get to high school, you have to kind of make some choices and learn not to torture your mom the old-fashioned way: by coming home and listening to a haggard old lady in a half open bathrobe scream tearily tthat she thought you were lying somewhere in a ditch and don't you even care and if this happens again she'll call the police and report you as a missing person and are you okay?

 

Really, to me the issue with hs kids, much less adult kids, would be that they have a right to privacy.  It's something I worry about with middle school kids having phones.  I kind of think the sense of being on one's own is actually important to building an adult.  I find it pretty alien to think about tracking these older ids, in my generation it was common for kids to be out around the neighbourhood on their own at 5, and throughout the city at about 12.

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6 minutes ago, Katy said:

A big part of this has to do with geography and local economy.  If you are in a high cost of living area your child might be close to 30 before they can responsibly move out without taking on debt.  The way you treat a 25 year old living at home for economic reasons and the way you treat a 17-19 year old are worlds apart.  Especially when the 19 year old lives in a low cost of living area where they could easily rent a 2 bedroom apartment for less than $400 per month (utilities included) , or rent a 3 bedroom 1500 sq ft home for about $600 per month, but for whatever reason aren't interested in both going to school and having a part time job to cover their share of rent with a room mate. Those were the rents in one of the more expensive areas of Oklahoma when we lived there a couple years back. I am under the impression most areas there are cheaper.  In areas where them choosing to remain a child and let their parents be responsible for them is part of the equation it will naturally follow that they'll still be treated like a child.  They essentially ARE a child, and they have plenty of options available to them if/when they choose to grow up.  Including paying parents rent, groceries, and utilities to be treated more like a responsible adult.

Obviously the equation is different if there is a health crisis, a pregnancy, or some other thing going on that compels an adult into moving back in with their parents or never moving out to begin with.

I have a nephew who lives in a low cost of living area in Florida.  When he was in high school he was able to find a summer construction job, and by the time he graduated he had enough savings to build his own home (with cash!) on a lot that was a gift from his parents, they broke it off from their large acreage. By the time he was 19 he'd built a new 3/2 home and had proven himself responsible enough that he supervised a work crew for the contractor. He went back to school at nights and was a licensed independent contractor before the age of 30. In many areas the economy simply wouldn't allow a kid to do this, no matter how bright, motivated, or responsible they were.  No one was treating that 19 year old like a child.  He wasn't.  He was a man.

As an aside, most of my extended family uses iPhones and we all have Find My Friend turned on. No one has abused the privilege and we all find it helpful when traveling or on road trips.  Previously we'd do things like call every 50 miles at certain mile markers so family would know where to tell Sheriffs departments where someone disappeared. Sometimes this creates a few awkward conversations, "There was a problem with the app when you were South of Kansas City.  It looked like you were stopped at an off ramp for 10 minutes."  "Well I was stopped, the traffic was too bad to eat and drive and I was too hungry to skip lunch."  But mostly we only monitor others if we're meeting them within 20 minutes, we're on a road trip, or are worried about someone on an icy day. None of us has anything to hide.  At the same time, we don't have any abusive or overly controlling personalities in the family or we'd need to rethink it.

 

All of this yes.  My son could move out in a month if he chooses.  He has savings enough to rent an apartment and skills enough to get a full time job that would support him.  He has agreed and we have agreed (me, my dh and ds's dad) to continue supporting him through college.  That agreement includes very specific requirements and they have all been discussed with ds. No one is trying to control him and the house rules are not abusive or unreasonable.  However, if he wants to be free of all house rules more than he wants to have a place to live while he goes to college he is free to choose that path.  No one would be angry at him or try to guilt him in to staying here.  I absolutely do not believe he is trying to hide anything.  But I do try to be mindful of his desire to be independent, which is a natural and desirable stage.

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15 minutes ago, Katy said:

  Especially when the 19 year old lives in a low cost of living area where they could easily rent a 2 bedroom apartment for less than $400 per month (utilities included) , or rent a 3 bedroom 1500 sq ft home for about $600 per month, but for whatever reason aren't interested in both going to school and having a part time job to cover their share of rent with a room mate. Those were the rents in one of the more expensive areas of Oklahoma when we lived there a couple years back. I am under the impression most areas there are cheaper.  In areas where them choosing to remain a child and let their parents be responsible for them is part of the equation it will naturally follow that they'll still be treated like a child.  They essentially ARE a child, and they have plenty of options available to them if/when they choose to grow up.  Including paying parents rent, groceries, and utilities to be treated more like a responsible adult.

I don't like the judgmental tone of the bolded. "Not interested", "choosing to remain a child" ? Working may simply not be a smart financial decision. There is no way for many college students to make as much money working a job as they receive in merit scholarship money for maintaining a high GPA.  Not choosing to work minimum wage to pay for an apartment and in turn lose 20k in scholarship money because the day only has 24 hours is the adult financial decision for them.

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1 minute ago, regentrude said:

I don't like the judgmental tone of the bolded. "Not interested", "choosing to remain a child" ? Working may simply not be a smart financial decision. There is no way for many college students to make as much money working a job as they receive in merit scholarship money for maintaining a high GPA.  Not choosing to work minimum wage to pay for an apartment and in turn lose 20k in scholarship money because the day only has 24 hours is the adult financial decision.

Again, though an adult supports himself.  Either with scholarship money or a job.

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4 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Again, though an adult supports himself.  Either with scholarship money or a job.

That is a very strange definition of adult. Does that mean you do not consider SAH spouses adults?  Do you believe that the wife who stays home and is supported by her husband is subject to HIS house rules because he pays the mortgage and her food? Do unemployed people cease to be adults?

ETA: Scholarships pay for tuition, not living expenses, in almost all cases

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16 hours ago, Scarlett said:

See you are using words like 'control' and 'leashing' when that is not accurate at all.  My son has a lot of freedom.  He goes where he wants, when he wants. And he has for most of his senior year---he isn't even graduated high school yet.  We consider it a matter of common courtesy to use technology to be able to find see where each other are.  I never comment or ask him and honestly I rarely even check where he is unless it has gotten late and I wonder if he is driving home or if I can still text him.  

But different families do things differently.  

 

OP is having a terrible not worrying about her dd while she is home for summer.  Life 360 would help.  I just made a suggestion.  Sorry GB to derail your thread.

 

I am not convinced these things do help.  I think it's a bit like smoking pot for anxiety - at the time, it seems to help, so you want to keep doing it.  A few hours later though, it makes you more anxious.  And you get caught up in a cycle where you feel the need to medicate because of the longer term effects of the drug itself.

All of these ways people are using to keep tabs on their kids or even other adults seem to make people more anxious - before cell phones, people were not going out of their minds about where people were or when they'd arrive. Generally, they were more relaxed.

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1 minute ago, Bluegoat said:

 

I am not convinced these things do help.  I think it's a bit like smoking pot for anxiety - at the time, it seems to help, so you want to keep doing it.  A few hours later though, it makes you more anxious.  And you get caught up in a cycle where you feel the need to medicate because of the longer term effects of the drug itself.

All of these ways people are using to keep tabs on their kids or even other adults seem to make people more anxious - before cell phones, people were not going out of their minds about where people were or when they'd arrive. Generally, they were more relaxed.

You really think people didn't worry about their kids being out late before cell phones?  I remember my mom worrying about me in the early 80s.  I remember her worrying about my brother in the late 80s.  Much more with him because he was trouble with a capital T.  He wouldn't come home at a decent hour and she would lay there and worrying all night he was in a ditch with no way to confirm or dismiss that concern.  

I do think one could become obsessive about checking it.  But that is a separate issue.

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17 hours ago, HomeAgain said:


I have to say I found the control over adults odd, too.  My oldest is in college.  Well, at the moment he's on break.  But when he's home, the rule is the same as for my husband and myself: be safe.  Let us know when to expect you/where you're going.  Be respectful of the rest of the house.

An adult must be treated as an adult if we expect them to grow and become self sufficient people.  By focusing on basic safety and manners, we can help them achieve that.  I cannot fathom leashing my 19yo and then expecting him to be a grown up.  Parenthood doesn't work that way, at least not in healthy relationships.


I'm not sure why I should worry more about my kids when they're home than away?  It drove me totally, completely nuts that my mom would go all crazy on me when I went home for college breaks, and for the few months I lived there after I graduated, when I'd been living as an adult for *years*, when she had no idea where I was or what I was doing or how late I was out.  I lived abroad a couple of times, for Pete's sake!  I was a complete straight arrow, btw, but yes, sometimes I'd want to go out to the city on the weekend. I swore I would not act like that to my kids.

The rules are no different for an adult 'child' living here as for other adults living here, pretty much what HomeAgain listed above.

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9 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I don't like the judgmental tone of the bolded. "Not interested", "choosing to remain a child" ? Working may simply not be a smart financial decision. There is no way for many college students to make as much money working a job as they receive in merit scholarship money for maintaining a high GPA.  Not choosing to work minimum wage to pay for an apartment and in turn lose 20k in scholarship money because the day only has 24 hours is the adult financial decision for them.

 

There are young people who stay at home because they don't want to be responsible for themselves, and they like being taken care of.  I'd be pretty inclined, in that instance, to make living at home less appealing than being independent.

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4 minutes ago, regentrude said:

That is a very strange definition of adult. Does that mean you do not consider SAH spouses adults?  Do you believe that the wife who stays home and is supported by her husband is subject to HIS house rules because he pays the mortgage and her food?

Sigh.  No.  The dynamic between marriage mates---a partnership---is not the same as between parent and young adult/child.  I would assume the wife did not agree to child like conditions in order to stay home and care for home and children.  I am not my son's partner.  And I don't think it is reasonable to say 'hey son I will let you keep living here for free but I need you to abide by this curfew so that I can get my much needed sleep.'   If you think that is unreasonable then don't do it for your adult kids.  

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2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

You really think people didn't worry about their kids being out late before cell phones?  I remember my mom worrying about me in the early 80s.  I remember her worrying about my brother in the late 80s.  Much more with him because he was trouble with a capital T.  He wouldn't come home at a decent hour and she would lay there and worrying all night he was in a ditch with no way to confirm or dismiss that concern.  

I do think one could become obsessive about checking it.  But that is a separate issue.

 

People worried, but they did not worry more, which is my point.   And they also got over it for the most part, which is what happens when you have to learn to deal with the fact that you can't control certain things.  You just learn to let go.  In a big storm, etc, people might worry more, but people were not debilitated with worry that their 13 year old was off somewhere in the city on the bus, doing who knows what.  

The problem with a lot of these technology solutions is they train people to keep checking, to need reassurance, and give an illusion of control, so they increase and reward anxiety.

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Just now, Bluegoat said:

 

People worried, but they did not worry more, which is my point.   And they also got over it for the most part, which is what happens when you have to learn to deal with the fact that you can't control certain things.  You just learn to let go.  In a big storm, etc, people might worry more, but people were not debilitated with worry that their 13 year old was off somewhere in the city on the bus, doing who knows what.  

The problem with a lot of these technology solutions is they train people to keep checking, to need reassurance, and give an illusion of control, so they increase and reward anxiety.

I do agree if people are constantly checking that is a problem.  I guess that would be similar to the mom back in the day who would show up unannounced to see if you were where you were suppose to be.

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3 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I do agree if people are constantly checking that is a problem.  I guess that would be similar to the mom back in the day who would show up unannounced to see if you were where you were suppose to be.

 

But how much is a problem, and how much is normal?

Kids in hs used to commonly be gone all day. They might have to be home for supper, or a certain time in the evening, after which the parents would worry if they didn't hear anything.  Presumably they were in school, but the schools didn't necessarily call home if they were not.  

I can't really reconcile that level of needing to know as the norm with some need to have a tracker on the person.  Presumably if they have a phone on them to track you could call if there was some serious reason to be worried.  For a tracker to be useful you'd need to be checking more than you'd want to just call.  That seems a low bar for needing to know where someone is.

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Since we live with my mom, it's an interesting dynamic as *I* am often the one staying out late. We do the front light thing. When it's off we know whoever was out in now home. 

When ds is out, I don't worry, but I generally trust most of the people he goes out with. Plus I'm a light sleeper and can hear him coming up the stairs. I know my mom worries when I go out because sometimes. Ds is also a night owl, so if he's home and I'm out, I'll text him if I'm going to be home super late or stay the night somewhere. 

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32 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Sigh.  No.  The dynamic between marriage mates---a partnership---is not the same as between parent and young adult/child.  I would assume the wife did not agree to child like conditions in order to stay home and care for home and children.  I am not my son's partner.  And I don't think it is reasonable to say 'hey son I will let you keep living here for free but I need you to abide by this curfew so that I can get my much needed sleep.'   If you think that is unreasonable then don't do it for your adult kids.  

I don't. I expect my adult kids to enter the home quietly so they don't wake me when they get home late. Which they learned to do as preteens/teenagers. I expect the same of my husband who comes to bed several hours after I go to sleep. That is common courtesy, but does not require a curfew.

But I think the fundamental difference between our attitudes is that I don't think in terms of "let you keep living here for free" and "agreeing on conditions". We live together because we're family. I do not view this as a favor and privilege that I graciously grant my children if they are willing to abide by my rules - MY rules which I get to set because I am paying the bills. This approach is alien to me. 

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38 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Really, to me the issue with hs kids, much less adult kids, would be that they have a right to privacy.  It's something I worry about with middle school kids having phones.  I kind of think the sense of being on one's own is actually important to building an adult.  I find it pretty alien to think about tracking these older ids, in my generation it was common for kids to be out around the neighbourhood on their own at 5, and throughout the city at about 12.

My kids will go to the local shopping center / mall in middle school. I'm fine with that. But some people still ask little DD, 9, why she is walking home alone. There are many cultures and clashing expectations. I have to be aware of that. Also there are no pay phones.

Metro will still give a kid a free ride to get home though. ❤️ You have to be aware of what else is available to them. They can't simply go out  into a broken community and fend for themselves. All this is predicated on living in a functioning society. On a safe space at the library or bookstore, on the neighborhood busybody taking her five-times-daily spy mission AHEM constitutional, on the same guys playing basketball at the park who are always there, on the security guy knowing my daughter and her school so when she says "yes you can call my mom" he won't just react at her.

So i do feel for people who don't live in an environment like that. Fear gets amplified.

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28 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

People worried, but they did not worry more, which is my point.   And they also got over it for the most part, which is what happens when you have to learn to deal with the fact that you can't control certain things.  You just learn to let go.  In a big storm, etc, people might worry more, but people were not debilitated with worry that their 13 year old was off somewhere in the city on the bus, doing who knows what.  

The problem with a lot of these technology solutions is they train people to keep checking, to need reassurance, and give an illusion of control, so they increase and reward anxiety.

Yay for all of this.

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1 hour ago, regentrude said:

I don't. I expect my adult kids to enter the home quietly so they don't wake me when they get home late. Which they learned to do as preteens/teenagers. I expect the same of my husband who comes to bed several hours after I go to sleep. That is common courtesy, but does not require a curfew.

But I think the fundamental difference between our attitudes is that I don't think in terms of "let you keep living here for free" and "agreeing on conditions". We live together because we're family. I do not view this as a favor and privilege that I graciously grant my children if they are willing to abide by my rules - MY rules which I get to set because I am paying the bills. This approach is alien to me. 

I am sure you have expectations and conditions for who lives in your home.  Yours are just different than mine.  Which is fine.  We are all different. 

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1 hour ago, Tsuga said:

My kids will go to the local shopping center / mall in middle school. I'm fine with that. But some people still ask little DD, 9, why she is walking home alone. There are many cultures and clashing expectations. I have to be aware of that. Also there are no pay phones.

Metro will still give a kid a free ride to get home though. ❤️ You have to be aware of what else is available to them. They can't simply go out  into a broken community and fend for themselves. All this is predicated on living in a functioning society. On a safe space at the library or bookstore, on the neighborhood busybody taking her five-times-daily spy mission AHEM constitutional, on the same guys playing basketball at the park who are always there, on the security guy knowing my daughter and her school so when she says "yes you can call my mom" he won't just react at her.

So i do feel for people who don't live in an environment like that. Fear gets amplified.

Rural OK has its own set of dangers.  On the 10 mile trek to my house ds has to deal with a highway full of 18 wheelers and then a dark and narrow 2 lane road over a dike part of which has no cable or rail to slow a plunge  into the waters below.  Then there is the problem of the meth addicts who seem to over run these rural areas.  The addiction turns them into thieves and worse.  There are many parts of the city that I consider much less dangerous than what I outlined above. 

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1 hour ago, regentrude said:

I don't. I expect my adult kids to enter the home quietly so they don't wake me when they get home late. Which they learned to do as preteens/teenagers. I expect the same of my husband who comes to bed several hours after I go to sleep. That is common courtesy, but does not require a curfew.

But I think the fundamental difference between our attitudes is that I don't think in terms of "let you keep living here for free" and "agreeing on conditions". We live together because we're family. I do not view this as a favor and privilege that I graciously grant my children if they are willing to abide by my rules - MY rules which I get to set because I am paying the bills. This approach is alien to me. 

 

Exactly.  It's alien to YOU.  Because you're either a deep sleeper or you live in a large enough home that someone coming in doesn't wake you up. I'm a light sleeper. We have dogs that bark whenever someone arrives and an alarm system that beeps 2 feet from my bed every time someone opens or closes a door in the house.  I get woken up by the beep of the across the street neighbor's car being locked when they come home at 11 on a date night. The "common courtesy" that works in your family doesn't work for every family.

If a kidult is living in my house that doesn't make it their house. It's still a house that DH and I own and are allowing them to live in. So if getting 6-8 hours of uninterrupted sleep at night is impossible without some curfews or other reasonable restrictions, YOUR judgment about what other adults have the right to demand in their own homes from kidults who are staying there rent free is foreign to many of us at best!  And at worst - possibly indicates a serious lack of boundaries on your part. Hopefully not.  Hopefully you did an extraordinary parenting job and your adult children are 100% considerate of you and the other people you live with 100% of the time, and would never take advantage of your hospitality or be lacking in common courtesy.

IME most people aged 18-24 are still reliably moody, hormonal, and selfish at least 20% of the time. And these people sometimes have to be reminded that they are not entitled to run your home as if it is their own, the same way many 12-17 year olds sometimes need that reminder. Frankly it's completely foreign to me to expect anyone to be 100% courteous at all times. We all get tired and testy and focused only on ourselves sooner or later. So making a rule that means they don't have to think about mom's sleep, they just have to follow the rule seems much more realistic.

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On 5/6/2018 at 6:24 PM, Quill said:

 

For sleep in general, I am really loving the Calm app I just put on my iPad a few days ago. It has guided meditations for all sorts of things (I’m doing ‘gratitude’ right now), but it also has “Sleep Stories” you can play as you are going to sleep. Last night’s was Gift of the Magi and the night before was Sleeping Beauty. It probably seems strange that a middle-aged woman is here advocating bedtime stories being read to her, but I am really liking them so far! 

the Calm app was really cool, but I couldn't pay $60 for a year of it. The bedtime stories were really great, I don't think I heard the ending of even one in a week.

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8 minutes ago, Katy said:

 

Exactly.  It's alien to YOU.  Because you're either a deep sleeper or you live in a large enough home that someone coming in doesn't wake you up. I'm a light sleeper. We have dogs that bark whenever someone arrives and an alarm system that beeps 2 feet from my bed every time someone opens or closes a door in the house.  I get woken up by the beep of the across the street neighbor's car being locked when they come home at 11 on a date night. The "common courtesy" that works in your family doesn't work for every family.

If a kidult is living in my house that doesn't make it their house. It's still a house that DH and I own and are allowing them to live in. So if getting 6-8 hours of uninterrupted sleep at night is impossible without some curfews or other reasonable restrictions, YOUR judgment about what other adults have the right to demand in their own homes from kidults who are staying there rent free is foreign to many of us at best!  And at worst - possibly indicates a serious lack of boundaries on your part. Hopefully not.  Hopefully you did an extraordinary parenting job and your adult children are 100% considerate of you and the other people you live with 100% of the time, and would never take advantage of your hospitality or be lacking in common courtesy.

You did not get my point. My point was not the precise details of how a family arranges that people are courteous to each other - my point was  that it is alien to me to emphasize that it is a FAVOR I do to my child by LETTING them live with me rent free. I have grown up in a multigenerational household, and nobody ever set different rights between paying and non-paying members of the household (let alone consider the non-paying members not actual adults.)

Whether people choose to have dogs or alarm systems is not the issue. 

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We do the back yard light thing to know that dd has gotten home. She has to come to the house (she lives in the ranch's bunkhouse) to get one of her dogs. So, when I wake up in the middle of the night, if the light is off, she's gotten home. It's not uncommon for her to stay over at a friend's but she'll call so someone deals with her dogs. 

I consider letting people know where you are as a common courtesy. Dd is 24, works her own job, pays for her truck, pays for her dogs, etc. We pay her electricity, propane, and feed her horses, but they're used on the ranch. Well, the dogs work too, but not much! She puts in several hours a day on the ranch (when she's not on the other side of the county with her other job) but it will come to her when we die. 

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5 minutes ago, Katy said:

 

Exactly.  It's alien to YOU.  Because you're either a deep sleeper or you live in a large enough home that someone coming in doesn't wake you up. I'm a light sleeper. We have dogs that bark whenever someone arrives and an alarm system that beeps 2 feet from my bed every time someone opens or closes a door in the house.  I get woken up by the beep of the across the street neighbor's car being locked when they come home at 11 on a date night. The "common courtesy" that works in your family doesn't work for every family.

If a kidult is living in my house that doesn't make it their house. It's still a house that DH and I own and are allowing them to live in. So if getting 6-8 hours of uninterrupted sleep at night is impossible without some curfews or other reasonable restrictions, YOUR judgment about what other adults have the right to demand in their own homes from kidults who are staying there rent free is foreign to many of us at best!  And at worst - possibly indicates a serious lack of boundaries on your part. Hopefully not.  Hopefully you did an extraordinary parenting job and your adult children are 100% considerate of you and the other people you live with 100% of the time, and would never take advantage of your hospitality or be lacking in common courtesy.

IME most people aged 18-24 are still reliably moody, hormonal, and selfish at least 20% of the time. And these people sometimes have to be reminded that they are not entitled to run your home as if it is their own, the same way many 12-17 year olds sometimes need that reminder. Frankly it's completely foreign to me to expect anyone to be 100% courteous at all times. We all get tired and testy and focused only on ourselves sooner or later. So making a rule that means they don't have to think about mom's sleep, they just have to follow the rule seems much more realistic.

In my house, you can stand in the hallway and almost touch our door, ds's door and the boys bathroom door.  Our bedroom shares an uninsulated wall with ds's bedroom and the master bath and hall bath do as well.  I can hear ds if he talks in his sleep.  So yes it is near impossible for him to get home, get a shower and get to bed without waking me.

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12 minutes ago, regentrude said:

You did not get my point. My point was not the precise details of how a family arranges that people are courteous to each other - my point was  that it is alien to me to emphasize that it is a FAVOR I do to my child by LETTING them live with me rent free. I have grown up in a multigenerational household, and nobody ever set different rights between paying and non-paying members of the household (let alone consider the non-paying members not actual adults.)

Whether people choose to have dogs or alarm systems is not the issue. 

Sooooo.....how long does this last?  It is alien to me to think of adult kids as people with equal say over the household indefinitely.  What if you have a young adult who causes you to not get the sleep you need due to their inconsiderate behavior ?

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15 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Sooooo.....how long does this last?  It is alien to me to think of adult kids as people with equal say over the household indefinitely.  What if you have a young adult who causes you to not get the sleep you need due to their inconsiderate behavior ?

The issue is the inconsiderate behavior,  which would remain an issue if the person were paying rent. Or would the behavior be ok if he paid money?

How long an adult child has a say? Well, my mom and dad moved in with my grandmother when they were in their late 20s, lived with her (and had a say in the household) until, three children and 15 years later, they moved into their own home, and grandma moved in with them.  So, in multi generational living, until death or different living circumstances  end the arrangement?

ETA: it was nice growing up without hearing different parties talk about how they got to make the rules because it was their house and their money. I'm sure both my parents and my grandmother appreciated that at the various stages, respectively. 

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1 minute ago, regentrude said:

The issue is the inconsiderate behavior,  which would remain an issue if the person were paying rent. Or would the behavior be ok if he paid money?

How long an adult child has a say? Well, my mom and dad moved in with my grandmother when they were in their late 20s, lived with her (and had a say in the household) until, three children and 15 years later, they moved into their own home, and grandma moved in with them.  So, in multi generational living, until death or different living circumstances  end the arrangement?

Ah.  Yes, there is a definite cultural difference.  I just cannot imagine living with my mom for 15 years while raising my kids.  Or ever actually.  I moved out when I was 17 because I wanted to make my own way and live my own life.  

With anyone living in my house....whether family or not, paying or not.....continued inconsiderate behavior will not be tolerated.  And to be clear I don't say to ds, 'oh you are 18 years old now, I just LET you stay here.'  

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6 minutes ago, regentrude said:

The issue is the inconsiderate behavior,  which would remain an issue if the person were paying rent. Or would the behavior be ok if he paid money?

How long an adult child has a say? Well, my mom and dad moved in with my grandmother when they were in their late 20s, lived with her (and had a say in the household) until, three children and 15 years later, they moved into their own home, and grandma moved in with them.  So, in multi generational living, until death or different living circumstances  end the arrangement?

ETA: it was nice growing up without hearing different parties talk about how they got to make the rules because it was their house and their money. I'm sure both my parents and my grandmother appreciated that at the various stages, respectively. 

You really think we sit around talking about that?  It is a difference in cultural, not a difference in how we feel about our kids.  Your judgment comes through loud and clear.  Just so you know many people would not want to live multigenerational and it doesn't make them bad people.  

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48 minutes ago, sarasue7272 said:

the Calm app was really cool, but I couldn't pay $60 for a year of it. The bedtime stories were really great, I don't think I heard the ending of even one in a week.

Yeah, it is on the pricier side for an app. I agree.

i rationalized buying the year’s subscription because last year I attended meditation classes and one session (8 classes) cost more than $60. And the app is more enjoyable, more versatile and includes more topics. And they are being read  to me, which helps my mind stay on the subject. 

The bedtime stories are fun, too. I was listening to the train track one with the Scottish man’s voice and was out like a light. 

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29 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Ah.  Yes, there is a definite cultural difference.  I just cannot imagine living with my mom for 15 years while raising my kids.  Or ever actually.  I moved out when I was 17 because I wanted to make my own way and live my own life.  

You are privileged to have lived in a country with a functioning economy and housing market that permitted you to move out on your own. My parents did not have that luxury, however much they would have liked. They made their own way and lived their own lives - just not in an apartment of their own because none were available. (The allies bombing my city to pieces just before the war ended  didn't help the housing situation )

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I don't require it, but we all use the "Find My Friends" feature on the iPhone (which any participant could turn off at any time.) I can see if my husband is still at work without calling and disrupting; I can see my college daughter and my married daughter moving about, and it gives me an idea if this would be a good time to call. I can follow my young teen when she is out and about, and it allows her a bit more freedom (it was super useful at theme parks last month.)

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4 hours ago, Bluegoat said:

 

I am not convinced these things do help.  I think it's a bit like smoking pot for anxiety - at the time, it seems to help, so you want to keep doing it.  A few hours later though, it makes you more anxious.  And you get caught up in a cycle where you feel the need to medicate because of the longer term effects of the drug itself.

All of these ways people are using to keep tabs on their kids or even other adults seem to make people more anxious - before cell phones, people were not going out of their minds about where people were or when they'd arrive. Generally, they were more relaxed.

 

This can be totally personality dependent. Even my adult kids are friends with me on find friends and I never track them unless they’re driving to see me. Heck, I’m even friends with my own mother though we rarely have a practical use for it. 

No one feels intruded upon or extra anxious. (It’s also totally voluntary for the adults)

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3 hours ago, Bluegoat said:

 

People worried, but they did not worry more, which is my point.   And they also got over it for the most part, which is what happens when you have to learn to deal with the fact that you can't control certain things.  You just learn to let go.  In a big storm, etc, people might worry more, but people were not debilitated with worry that their 13 year old was off somewhere in the city on the bus, doing who knows what.  

The problem with a lot of these technology solutions is they train people to keep checking, to need reassurance, and give an illusion of control, so they increase and reward anxiety.

 

I very much agree! 

 

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1 hour ago, Katy said:

 

Exactly.  It's alien to YOU.  Because you're either a deep sleeper or you live in a large enough home that someone coming in doesn't wake you up. I'm a light sleeper. We have dogs that bark whenever someone arrives and an alarm system that beeps 2 feet from my bed every time someone opens or closes a door in the house.  I get woken up by the beep of the across the street neighbor's car being locked when they come home at 11 on a date night. The "common courtesy" that works in your family doesn't work for every family.

If a kidult is living in my house that doesn't make it their house. It's still a house that DH and I own and are allowing them to live in. So if getting 6-8 hours of uninterrupted sleep at night is impossible without some curfews or other reasonable restrictions, YOUR judgment about what other adults have the right to demand in their own homes from kidults who are staying there rent free is foreign to many of us at best!  And at worst - possibly indicates a serious lack of boundaries on your part. Hopefully not.  Hopefully you did an extraordinary parenting job and your adult children are 100% considerate of you and the other people you live with 100% of the time, and would never take advantage of your hospitality or be lacking in common courtesy.

IME most people aged 18-24 are still reliably moody, hormonal, and selfish at least 20% of the time. And these people sometimes have to be reminded that they are not entitled to run your home as if it is their own, the same way many 12-17 year olds sometimes need that reminder. Frankly it's completely foreign to me to expect anyone to be 100% courteous at all times. We all get tired and testy and focused only on ourselves sooner or later. So making a rule that means they don't have to think about mom's sleep, they just have to follow the rule seems much more realistic.

The bolded...

Omg, preach. That is all.

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42 minutes ago, GoodGrief1 said:

I don't require it, but we all use the "Find My Friends" feature on the iPhone (which any participant could turn off at any time.) I can see if my husband is still at work without calling and disrupting; I can see my college daughter and my married daughter moving about, and it gives me an idea if this would be a good time to call. I can follow my young teen when she is out and about, and it allows her a bit more freedom (it was super useful at theme parks last month.)

One of my favorite uses for it is to see if dh is still at work so I don't disturb him.  Once I see he has left the office I often call him and we chat....but when he is trying to finish up work so he can get out of there I don't want to bug him.  And I often check it before I text my son to make sure he isn't driving.  Of course he isn't suppose to check texts while driving but I don't want to be the temptation if I can avoid. 

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My boys (3 of whom are kidults living at least mostly at home), have never had a blanket curfew. It’s been a case by case basis, and now the older ones can stay out as late as they want. They have been really reasonable, and understand with some exceptions, that it’s not necessarily a good thing to stay out until the wee hours.

I have difficulty going to sleep before they get in, but we all try to compromise and be considerate to one another.

Also, I consider this to be dh’s and my house, but it’s everyone’s home that lives here.

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1 hour ago, regentrude said:

You are privileged to have lived in a country with a functioning economy and housing market that permitted you to move out on your own. My parents did not have that luxury, however much they would have liked. They made their own way and lived their own lives - just not in an apartment of their own because none were available. (The allies bombing my city to pieces just before the war ended  didn't help the housing situation )

 

I grew up here (midwest US), my mom grew up here and we tend more to your line of thinking. My mom moved out as a teen and had to live on her own to finish high school as her family lived miles outside of a small town and had no transportation. She has always had a more open policy about adult children living at home, partially because she felt like her family did not support her in any way. In the past, we have lived with them out of OUR financial need. Now we do so out of choice. My parents worked really hard to ensure I always felt like I had a home, that is my mom's mentality about our house now even though it's her name on the mortgage. Ds pays a few bills, but we both agree that this is his home and we all are afforded autonomy as individuals, to come and go as we please, to entertain as we please. 

Ds will move on and probably move out of state. When my mom passes away, this will be my house. Besides grad school, I'll most likely live here for the rest of my life.

*I* find it odd to continue to parent at 20 year old + as you would a 15 year old. I hope ds will move out someday because he has other goals, but this is his home. Yes, he's moody, guess what, so am I. He's selfish sometimes, so am I. He is, however, entitled to use the house as his own. He can cook and clean and have friends over and stay up late or stay out late if he so chooses. He is not loud or obnoxious or a slob. My hope is that when he does leave he'll know he has the skills to be a responsible adult, to interact and live with others as peers instead of just in a subordinate relationship. 

I am, however, taking over his bedroom when he does, he has a much better closet. 

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5 minutes ago, elegantlion said:

 

I grew up here (midwest US), my mom grew up here and we tend more to your line of thinking. My mom moved out as a teen and had to live on her own to finish high school as her family lived miles outside of a small town and had no transportation. She has always had a more open policy about adult children living at home, partially because she felt like her family did not support her in any way. In the past, we have lived with them out of OUR financial need. Now we do so out of choice. My parents worked really hard to ensure I always felt like I had a home, that is my mom's mentality about our house now even though it's her name on the mortgage. Ds pays a few bills, but we both agree that this is his home and we all are afforded autonomy as individuals, to come and go as we please, to entertain as we please. 

Ds will move on and probably move out of state. When my mom passes away, this will be my house. Besides grad school, I'll most likely live here for the rest of my life.

*I* find it odd to continue to parent at 20 year old + as you would a 15 year old. I hope ds will move out someday because he has other goals, but this is his home. Yes, he's moody, guess what, so am I. He's selfish sometimes, so am I. He is, however, entitled to use the house as his own. He can cook and clean and have friends over and stay up late or stay out late if he so chooses. He is not loud or obnoxious or a slob. My hope is that when he does leave he'll know he has the skills to be a responsible adult, to interact and live with others as peers instead of just in a subordinate relationship. 

I am, however, taking over his bedroom when he does, he has a much better closet. 

I don't parent my 18 year old like I did when he was 15.  I just want to sleep mostly.?

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