Adult DD Wanting Validation

[Lori D.]

Hugs to you and your DD, Goldberry!

Edited May 3, 2018 by Lori D.

[goldberry]

17 minutes ago, 8circles said:

It is extremely depressing knowing that there are people out there who would look at the million choices I make every day and critique every single one that was "less than ideal". 

 

??  Does anyone think all their choices are "the best possible choice ever"?  I was trying to say it happens so often as to not be a big deal.  It's not critiquing each choice and pouncing all over mistakes.  It's part of life.

And thinking that she should have studied that weekend does not equal "her work ethic is lacking".  I think she has a great work ethic.  Even people with great work ethics can oversleep and be late for work.  That doesn't change WHO THEY ARE. And that is what I have always communicated to her. You always have to look at yourself as a whole, not an isolated incident here and there, because we all have them.

[Scarlett]

Just now, goldberry said:

 

??  Does anyone think all their choices are "the best possible choice ever"?  I was trying to say it happens so often as to not be a big deal.  It's not critiquing each choice and pouncing all over mistakes.  It's part of life.

And thinking that she should have studied that weekend does not equal "her work ethic is lacking".  I think she has a great work ethic.  Even people with great work ethics can oversleep and be late for work.  That doesn't change WHO THEY ARE. And that is what I have always communicated to her. You always have to look at yourself as a whole, not an isolated incident here and there, because we all have them.

Exactly.  Good grief.  

 

[Lori D.]

5 minutes ago, StellaM said:

I feel really bad for disagreeing with Lori D! 

LOL! My feelings are not hurt. I may be totally off base -- I often am. [insert wink-y face]

That response was out of me being a very strong FEELER (INFJ), and DH being a very strong THINKER (INTP), and after many years of frustrating conversations with him where I just wanted to have my feelings *heard* (validated!), and he's madly problem-solving (LOL!), that reflective listening -- but esp. me starting the conversation with "I just need you to listen and support me right now, and we can problem-solve at a later time" -- helps a LOT.

Hugs (((StellaM)))! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[unsinkable]

Maybe I'm confusing this with someone else but is this the young woman 

who has a scholarship dependent upon grades? 

if it is, this was a pretty important, potentially emotionally loaded convo.

if it is not, sorry.

[goldberry]

17 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

 

ETA that dd has anxiety and honestly, the worst thing you can do for an anxious person is provide endless reassurance and approval. It just perpetuates the cycle of anxiety. Doesn't mean you should go around looking for bones to pick either, or withhold support...just means in the kind of convo you've described, endless reassurance just beds the anxiety down even more firmly.

 

 

Yes, and this is something I've seen before with her.  She does have anxiety, but it's not debilitating.  High end of normal would say. She has always been a very sensitive girl, and very emotional.  She is aware of it and has worked on it at her own pace. She has learned so much and grown this year though, which has been awesome.  

[goldberry]

47 minutes ago, Mimm said:

Parenting teens has not be easy for me, but I'm not at all convinced parenting children in their early 20s is any easier. ?

 

No. It's not.  ?

 

(is everyone else seeing question marks where emojis would be??)

[Lori D.]

48 minutes ago, Mimm said:

Parenting teens has not be easy for me, but I'm not at all convinced parenting children in their early 20s is any easier. ?

 

1 minute ago, goldberry said:

No. It's not.  ?

 

Amen, ladies!

[goldberry]

5 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

Maybe I'm confusing this with someone else but is this the young woman 

who has a scholarship dependent upon grades? 

if it is, this was a pretty important, potentially emotionally loaded convo.

if it is not, sorry.

Yep.  But we've had several conversations over the last few weeks, that she's at the end.  She should do the best she can and we've promised that we will handle together whatever happens. But you're right, it's still a weighty topic.

[Bluegoat]

35 minutes ago, 8circles said:

It is extremely depressing knowing that there are people out there who would look at the million choices I make every day and critique every single one that was "less than ideal". 

 

I would be surprised if every single one of your choices was less than ideal  - that would be some kind of record.  And asking people does suggest you want input.  If you ask advice, and choose not to follow it, you can't get upset that the person thinks the other choice would have been better.

[nixpix5]

1 hour ago, Bluegoat said:

I think with people who are this way, two things cause change.  One is more comfort with their own choices.  But the other can be seeing that the arguing really is unpleasant for others.  

I don't know about stopping judging.  Disagreeing is not judging choices, and framing it that way seems kind of paternalistic to me.  Moms should be free to think they'd do things differently.  Kids that are nearly grown up need to realize their parents are their own people, separate from themselves, with their own ideas, and that is ok.

 

Yes. Disagreeing does not equal criticism or judging.  No, we absolutely should not patronize our kids or agree with them just because they are in an insecure and totally normal stage of launching. This is normal and OP is teaching DD that part of being an adult is continuing to love and respect people even when they would make different choices. Most sensitive and securely attached kids do go through this stage. Keep modeling the "agree to disagree" and admit when you are wrong, don't engage in any emotional debates and love love love her. She will eventually begin to understand. Many young people equate being right with respect. They sometimes don't get the grey area of life. By not being binary with her but showing her the grey you are ultimately going to lead her to being a more tolerant human in the world. 

[Bluegoat]

1 hour ago, 8circles said:

 

If your child is having a hard time not being OK with dispproval, it would be good to help them out by not expressing your disapproval until they feel more secure.

This adult kid is only 19, not 29. It isn't as if on their 18th birthday they are all of a sudden secure in their adult choices and no longer care what their parents think.

Is the issue in the OP a substantial thing? Not to me. It's having a friend over during finals.

 

This seems like it would make things even worse to me.  I agree, it's only substantive in that she cares about it.  But tiptoeing around it and hiding your views on an absolutely minor issue is not going to help someone come to terms with that disagreement being ok.  It's going to keep them feeling that it's a problem if there is disagreement.

[Garga]

1 hour ago, Lori D. said:

Meaning this very gently, a few of your statements -- such as: "And that was your choice. So just move on...") -- whether you mean them or not, could be taken as judgmental by someone who is stressed out and just wanted/needed a listening ear and a shoulder to lean on. You could try to do reflect listening (which takes a lot of practice, so be gentle with yourself!), which validates that you hear what the person is saying and FEELING. PLUS, you just don't share your opinion, but keep re-focusing on your DD and allowing her to vent/share. Example:

DD = "I'm worried about the final."

You = "You're worried? Why is that?" [acknowledges her emotion and encourages her to share more; this validates her as a person that it is okay to have worries, and that you are a safe person to share those worries with -- rather than shutting down conversation or dismissing her worry and her need to be heard, which is what the response of "I'm sure you'll do okay" tends to do, even though you mean it to be encouraging]

DD = "I'm not sure I studied enough."

You = "Oh? Can you share what you did for studying?" [a second question from you, encourages her that it is safe to share more; this may the tricky point and she might not share if she feels she didn't do enough, or if she thinks you might shut down conversation with "I'm sure it will be fine" -- you might need to show that you are willing to be patient and encouraging here, if she doesn't respond, by adding something like, "I remember from high school you would do xyz for studying; does that kind of thing help in college, or have you found some new things that have helped this year?"]

DD = "... [describes]..."

You = "... [repeat/summarize types of studying or # of hours that DD just said]... Wow, you sure covered a lot of ground there in studying!" [validates DD's choice and shows her you're willing to stick with this hard conversation and really listening to her without interjecting solutions or opinions]

DD = "But you don't think I should have had X come visit last weekend. I could tell you sounded surprised he was coming the weekend before finals."

You = "Gee, I really am sorry for anything I said or did that suggested that to you. That honestly was not my intention at all. I can hear how worried you are about these finals." [assures DD that you aren't going to, re-validates DD that you really hear that she is stressed, and puts the ball back in the court that this conversation is about her]

DD = "I needed to see him! I've been working so hard and I needed a break!"

You = (smiling) "Having X visit was a nice break from working so hard. [straight up reflecting what DD said] (giving her a hug, or a touch on the arm) "You know Dad and I and boyfriend are all rooting for you next week during finals and that we are so proud of all your hard work this year at school." [validation of DD's good work; no need to share you would have made a different decision about how/when to study and visit with a boyfriend] "Just let us know if there is anything else that might help at this time." [this starts to bring the discussion to a close so it's not "endless validation" of an insecure child, but does leave the door open if anything further needs to be shared by the child]

The main thing in reflective listening is to 1.) reflect or parrot back what the person is saying, 2.) that you are really listening to them, and 3.) ask questions that directs it back to them: "I can hear that you are worried. Is there some especially bothering you about this situation?" And after the person has had a the full opportunity to share everything they need to, then when you go to offer encouragement, say or ask it in a way that lets the person tell you what would be encouraging: "Is there anything I can do to help? Or is it helpful to have someone listen and care?"

Hugs to you and your DD, Goldberry!

For this daughter, I agree with Lori D.  It doesn’t mean this is a counselling session with counselling techniques.  It means you’re meeting the emotional needs of one of the dearest people to you in all the world.  Sure, you might not have time for this sort of conversation with everyone you meet, but I do think that when one of your beloved (husband, children) needs this sort of style of conversation, then you do it.  You are the safe place.  

All of our advice is colored by who we are and what we’ve seen.  I used to be a harsher person.  I used to be a person who felt like, “Get over it!” when people got too touchy-feely. I didn’t like the nurturing conversations—didn’t like trying to be nurturing and didn’t want anyone to nurture me.  And then, lo and behold, I changed.  And now I’m just so tired of flippant remarks, tired of mildly judgy friends, and tired of disconnect and lack of gentle connection with others.

I somewhat recently managed to find touchy-feely people who speak just the way that Lori outlined and I love it. It’s still somewhat new to me and I’m still not super touchy-feely, but I am more than I used to be.  I kept the harsher friends, of course.  The ones who’d be like, “Girl, you do you, and quit worrying about my opinion of you!”  I still enjoy their company. But I also have new friends who are like Lori, “Sweetie, it sounds like you’re upset....etc.”. 

Sometimes we need the practical and blunt people in our lives, and sometimes we need the gentle and supportive.  

You might want to try being gentle and supportive for your daughter, because it sounds like she really needs that from you. The rest of the world will teach her that she has to make her decisions and own them.  You can be the person who comforts her. 

There’s a place for both types of people.  And it’s not wrong to be the supportive, gentle person.  I had a lot of fun being the practical and non-emotive person, but it’s getting really old to me now.  I’m turning into a softie as I get older, and I’m finding that I prefer other softies and I like myself better when I act like a softie toward others.

So, Goldberry, there are about a billion ways to handle this.  From my perspective...go soft on your daughter.  Be the counsellor for a while and see if it helps.

[nixpix5]

1 hour ago, Bluegoat said:

 

This seems like it would make things even worse to me.  I agree, it's only substantive in that she cares about it.  But tiptoeing around it and hiding your views on an absolutely minor issue is not going to help someone come to terms with that disagreement being ok.  It's going to keep them feeling that it's a problem if there is disagreement.

You are spot on. It is exactly what happens and I have seen it play out in families in my office over and over. Some parents believe there is a magic switch that happens in development and it just isn't. These are continuum learning opportunities. A teen needs to practice these skills in a safe way or it may lead to relational issues later. Just like playing guitar and building up finger tolerance, it is painful at first. Young adults misinterpret intent. They truly believe since they are adults that they have many answers and that there is a right one and a wrong one. So incredibly normal. So "if mom would do it differently she must think I am wrong. If she thinks I am wrong then she must not respect me as an adult." This is typically the train of thought for a not fully developed young brain.

It is important to look for opportunities to agree though. Something like "I really was impressed with how you handled X. I don't know if I would have handled that so well when I was your age. I have alot of respect for you in how you chose to do that" 

It is equally important to discuss and model when we get it wrong. "I made this decision today that really wasn't thought out. Here was the issue, this is what I decided to do and now I know I probably should have done x. I fixed it by doing..." I modeled this a ton with my young adults and teens when they were that age. Humility doesn't come easy go adults let alone teens. It really is something they need to see continually. 

[SKL]

How about this:  "You have made your decision.  The results will play out and then you will probably find out you were right all along.  Now let's focus on something more productive than arguing."

[nixpix5]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

How about this:  "You have made your decision.  The results will play out and then you will probably find out you were right all along.  Now let's focus on something more productive than arguing."

I really love this  

ETA: how come every time I put in a smiley it turns it into a question mark? 

[Mimm]

4 hours ago, goldberry said:

 

No. It's not.  ?

 

(is everyone else seeing question marks where emojis would be??)

Yes. My question mark was supposed to be a smile.

[Mimm]

5 hours ago, 8circles said:

It is extremely depressing knowing that there are people out there who would look at the million choices I make every day and critique every single one that was "less than ideal". 

 

Really? I figure most of my decisions are "less than ideal." I'm just a person doing the best I can. *shrug* Like we all are. How about instead of pretending everyone's decisions are somehow ideal (even when they aren't) we give grace to everyone for being human?

[8circles]

6 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

I politely disagree that mothers need to use counselling skills in order to talk to their adult children. Reflective listening has its place; in a robust relationship between mother and daughter, speech can and should be more natural. If an adult child requires counselling, they should make an appointment with a counsellor.

Normal family interaction does not need to meet therapeutic requirements. 

 

 

I seriously needed to step away from the computer when I read this. 

Nobody has suggested that as a rule, mothers need to use counselling skills in order to talk to their adult children.

Anxiety is a read medical condition and to suggest that a mother should not learn techniques to speak to her child with anxiety in a way that is helpful for her child in that medically fragile moment is irresponsible at best.

Do you also hire a nurse to administer abx to your child? Or is it just mental illness that you think doesn't deserve parental care?

[Tanaqui]

I notice in your text conversation that first she ascribes emotions and thoughts to your fairly anodyne statements and then starts justifying her actions when you haven't explicitly questioned them.

Frankly, that'd drive me up the wall. I can't abide mindreading, and regardless of what you should say my response would probably involve a whole lot of silence, followed by "Whoops, honey, I guess I didn't see these texts come in! You know I'm always losing this phone!" If I can engage in a little mindreading of my own, it looks like she didn't feel she made the right choices. Why she has to argue with you instead of arguing with herself, I don't know.

But if I absolutely had to be roped into this conversation, and if I knew the person I was speaking to was prone to this behavior when stressed, I'd probably want to affirm their feelings (finals are scary!) and also emphasize two main facts: a. you can always retake a class if you don't like your grade and b. there's still time to study.

This is easier said than done. I have family members like this. I've had screaming arguments with them. This did not help.

[Carol in Cal.]

9 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

I notice in your text conversation that first she ascribes emotions and thoughts to your fairly anodyne statements and then starts justifying her actions when you haven't explicitly questioned them.

Frankly, that'd drive me up the wall. I can't abide mindreading, and regardless of what you should say my response would probably involve a whole lot of silence, followed by "Whoops, honey, I guess I didn't see these texts come in! You know I'm always losing this phone!" If I can engage in a little mindreading of my own, it looks like she didn't feel she made the right choices. Why she has to argue with you instead of arguing with herself, I don't know.

But if I absolutely had to be roped into this conversation, and if I knew the person I was speaking to was prone to this behavior when stressed, I'd probably want to affirm their feelings (finals are scary!) and also emphasize two main facts: a. you can always retake a class if you don't like your grade and b. there's still time to study.

This is easier said than done. I have family members like this. I've had screaming arguments with them. This did not help.

I have been known to say, "How about if you tell me what you think, not what I supposedly think."  I'm not saying that that is particularly productive, but it does create a useful diversion while setting a bit of a boundary.

[ondreeuh]

I don't think you're saying anything wrong. She seems to be fishing for opposition so she can argue about it, as a way to distract herself from her own insecurity. It really sounds like she doesn't feel great about her choices because she is anxious, and if she can project that on you, then she can "blame" you for causing that feeling inside herself instead of blaming herself for her own choices. Like when I stub my toe and yell at the table for being in the wrong place, lol.

She needs to not be so hard on herself, but that's not something you can fix. I think bending over backwards to never sound slightly critical doesn't do her any good either. She needs to deal with her own anxieties and insecurities without projecting onto others, and get comfortable with the knowledge she will make less-than-perfect choices because life is not always clear cut. 

My dd used to do a very similar thing when she was distraught - no matter what I said, I "just didn't understand." It was totally maddening and could take me from calm to #$^)@ in short order. There was no way to disengage because she would follow me and insist on re-explaining. It got better when her anxiety & depression got better. It wasn't my fault and it wasn't something I could change. 

[Tap]

For me and my kids (different temperment buy same ages)

I stop the conversation and change the topic to something along these lines.  

"I grew up in the 80s. Your world is completely different from mine.  Yes, I went to college, got married, had babies etc. The path to be an adult is going to be vastly different now, from my path 20 years ago.  We didn't have social media pressures, the internet (for good or bad), instant news, and a myriad of other things that have sped up the time in which we receive, process and forward information.  You are going to make different decisions from me, because your world is nothing like mine when I was 20yo.

Your decisions are based on your experiences and your friend's experiences.  I can offer advice and it will be sound and true advice.....but that doesn't mean it is any more right or wrong than what your gut is telling you to do.  You will make some great decisions. You will make some lousy decisions.  That is why the phrase LIfe Lessons exists. You will learn what works for you and what doesn't. Personally, I don't like the life lessons I learned when I procrastinated xyz. So, I try to avoid that now.  I like to get things done early so I am prepared and have less stress. Maybe for you, it will work out this time and be fine.  Maybe you will get to the test and find out it was super simple for you and you would have just wasted time studying.  Maybe you will get to the test and wish you had studied more. If anyone knows how much of a grasp of the material YOU have, it would be you. This is what being an adult is all about.  Making decisions and letting our life fold out in front of you.

[8circles]

1 hour ago, StellaM said:

 

I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here, as you're actually one of my FB friends, and assume you don't mean to be as hurtful as this comes across.

The advice to 'just parent, don't try to be the counsellor' came to me from mental health care professionals, including a very experienced mental health care social worker. The reason for this is that 1. burn out is real, and it's unfair to moms to ask they take on that role, as well as the role of mom. and 2. it's not always helpful to the child you are trying to counsel.

Reflective listening is a core counselling skil that has entered the general discourse, and while it has a role in some conversations, I don't believe what the OP describes is one of those conversations, because in that context it prolongs the behaviour of reassurance seeking. 

The advice to limit the amount of reassurance you supply the anxious child/teen/young adult is pretty standard, and came to me from a pyschologist who worked with my younger dd to manage her debilitating generalised anxiety as a young teen. Obviously, this doesn't mean a parent withdraws all reassurance; indeed, giving some reassurance is important. However, just as important is knowing when to ask the child to rely on the reassurance already given.

I have been actively caring for my kids, two of whom have a mental illness, one more mildly, the other more chronically and severely, for quite some time now.  I am not speaking from a position of advocating lack of care for anxious kids. I am also not speaking from a position of ignorance around the dynamic the OP describes, nor from ignorance around what anxiety is, how anxiety can be managed, and how debilitating anxiety can be. 

I hope that assuages your concerns about what you perceive as 'irresponsible advice' for the OP.

I will also note that dealing with anxiety in children and even teens is very different to dealing with it, as a parent, in young adults. What might be developmentally appropriate with a 7 year old, or even a 12 year old, is not appropriate with a 20 year old.

 

 

 

 

Your post was hurtful and condescending and you can give me the benefit of the doubt or not - I don't care. 

Parents can and should help their children by learning to speak to them in helpful ways when necessary. That doesn't replace a counselor. Not all parents are able to, but it isn't inappropriate for them to do so and the advice that Lori gave was not inappropriate.

You made a hurtful comment. Do not turn around and say my expressing my hurt is hurtful to you.

[Rosie_0801]

Being somewhat on the Aspie side of things, I've learned to provide disclaimers. 
The one I'd use here would be "I will struggle with this conversation if you put words in my mouth because I have hangups about injustice. This is fact, not a judgement on anyone except me."

[Knock]

I have an adult child like this. Not only was he homeschooled K-12, but I was a single mother for most of his life. He KNOWS pretty reliably what my thoughts and opinions are, so there's no skirting around a conversation like the one you had (OP) or successfully deflecting from it (it's still a good idea and worth a try) because he persists until give him the reaction or response that he is seeking.

And that there is the key.

Yes, my validation and approval are important to him, but that's not the actual crux of what's going on in this type of conversation. It's more like he's using me as the devil on his shoulder - the "bad cop" side of his brain - as he tries to process the situation in question. He know what my opinion is going to be (the visit wasn't an ideal time, or, I'd have done things differently) and COUNTS ON IT to process the situation. 

If I avoid bringing it up or engaging, HE WILL INTRODUCE "my" opinion (which is accurately perceived, due to our closeness) into the conversation. There's no hiding it because he knows me too well. There's no point in NOT voicing it because he already knows what my opinion is. And damn it, he needs me to play ball. He will pitch relentlessly, until I swing. I'm sure there is a season of life where it's easy to step out of the batter's box, but it's hard to do this while still in the thick of things.

The tendency to do this is a mix of personality and having had an enmeshed relationship. In his mind, subconsciously, I'm sure, I have a role to play. So he will persist until I fall in line and play my part as the other side of reason, because he uses our conversation as a vehicle for processing his decisions, stresses, fears, etc. He doesn't even realize he's doing this, nor does he understand how this pervades an otherwise natural desire for mother's validation. But framing it in this light has helped me deal with it in the moment.

It's also helped me to better understand why he's like this even with insignificant things, like which movies are better: classic Star Wars or newer ones. It's because he leans on me to an external display of his inward thought process. And this is where it has most worn me down, his incessant need for me to - not validate, but engage - to be the other half of his brain. It's emotionally draining! And it's still a hair trigger for even routine conversations, because it is fueled by the age typical need to extract himself from the family's sway in order to become an adult individual. I don't know if this is the case with your daughter, but you have my commiseration either way! 

[Joker]

I will say that my ds only does this with me. I don't worry about trying to train him in how to deal with everyone else in the world because he deals with them beautifully. His, and my, psychologist just like to say that I am his super safe place. He once had such awful anxiety he could barely leave the house at all but now he's on no meds and functions just fine. But, when he gets in his head like your dd it is always me that he has those types of convos with and they can be often at this stage (transitioning to adult hood and college). He doesn't spend time projecting his issues and faults onto everyone else. I guess I am how he vents and deals with that anxiety at the moment. Yes, it can be really frustrating and draining for me but I know it won't be this way forever and I know it's truly just as frustrating and draining for him. So, when I said I let these little things go, just agree and reaffirm and don't offer up my own judgements/opinions, that is where I am coming from. 

[Mimm]

5 hours ago, 8circles said:

 

Your post was hurtful and condescending and you can give me the benefit of the doubt or not - I don't care. 

Parents can and should help their children by learning to speak to them in helpful ways when necessary. That doesn't replace a counselor. Not all parents are able to, but it isn't inappropriate for them to do so and the advice that Lori gave was not inappropriate.

You made a hurtful comment. Do not turn around and say my expressing my hurt is hurtful to you. 

A hurtful comment was politely disagreeing? And for that, you went on the attack? Charming.

I don't know if you know what it's like to have a mentally ill child. But if you do or you don't, your accusation that Stella thinks mentally ill children don't deserve supportive parenting is WAY out of line and downright nasty.

[8circles]

1 hour ago, Joker said:

I will say that my ds only does this with me. I don't worry about trying to train him in how to deal with everyone else in the world because he deals with them beautifully. His, and my, psychologist just like to say that I am his super safe place. He once had such awful anxiety he could barely leave the house at all but now he's on no meds and functions just fine. But, when he gets in his head like your dd it is always me that he has those types of convos with and they can be often at this stage (transitioning to adult hood and college). He doesn't spend time projecting his issues and faults onto everyone else. I guess I am how he vents and deals with that anxiety at the moment. Yes, it can be really frustrating and draining for me but I know it won't be this way forever and I know it's truly just as frustrating and draining for him. So, when I said I let these little things go, just agree and reaffirm and don't offer up my own judgements/opinions, that is where I am coming from. 

 

I really appreciate what you've said in this thread. I think it's great that you've learned how to deal with your child in a helpful way, even though you aren't a counselor.

[Scarlett]

6 hours ago, ondreeuh said:

I don't think you're saying anything wrong. She seems to be fishing for opposition so she can argue about it, as a way to distract herself from her own insecurity. It really sounds like she doesn't feel great about her choices because she is anxious, and if she can project that on you, then she can "blame" you for causing that feeling inside herself instead of blaming herself for her own choices. Like when I stub my toe and yell at the table for being in the wrong place, lol.

She needs to not be so hard on herself, but that's not something you can fix. I think bending over backwards to never sound slightly critical doesn't do her any good either. She needs to deal with her own anxieties and insecurities without projecting onto others, and get comfortable with the knowledge she will make less-than-perfect choices because life is not always clear cut. 

My dd used to do a very similar thing when she was distraught - no matter what I said, I "just didn't understand." It was totally maddening and could take me from calm to #$^)@ in short order. There was no way to disengage because she would follow me and insist on re-explaining. It got better when her anxiety & depression got better. It wasn't my fault and it wasn't something I could change. 

Exactly what my son does to me and exactly how I see GBs dd doing GB.  

[8circles]

5 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

I expressed an educated opinion, quoting a poster who is not yourself, and with whom I had a short and friendly interaction following. 

Your reaction is disproportionate, particularly considering you are neither the OP nor the quoted poster.

I won't be responding further.

 

An educated opinion doesn't make it not hurtful. The fact that this is a known topic to you makes it even more surprising that you'd make such a statement.

My reaction is not disproportionate.

- hurtful comment

- that comment was hurtful

- do you know who I am?

Now THAT's charming.

[Soror]

I agree w/ Lori b/c I'm a "feeler", thankfully I had parents that were very supportive and kept their mouth shut.

When I'm reading the convo I do see that she is sensitive but I also wonder what does it help to even acknowledge that you think her choice was a bad one? There was nothing to be done about it at that point. She will find out herself whether or not it was a good one with how she does on the final, you don't have to tell her your thoughts on that. She shouldn't have brought it up but you shouldn't have taken the bait, no good could come from her further doubting herself about how well she studied. 

 

[fairfarmhand]

2 hours ago, Knock said:

I have an adult child like this. Not only was he homeschooled K-12, but I was a single mother for most of his life. He KNOWS pretty reliably what my thoughts and opinions are, so there's no skirting around a conversation like the one you had (OP) or successfully deflecting from it (it's still a good idea and worth a try) because he persists until give him the reaction or response that he is seeking.

And that there is the key.

Yes, my validation and approval are important to him, but that's not the actual crux of what's going on in this type of conversation. It's more like he's using me as the devil on his shoulder - the "bad cop" side of his brain - as he tries to process the situation in question. He know what my opinion is going to be (the visit wasn't an ideal time, or, I'd have done things differently) and COUNTS ON IT to process the situation. 

If I avoid bringing it up or engaging, HE WILL INTRODUCE "my" opinion (which is accurately perceived, due to our closeness) into the conversation. There's no hiding it because he knows me too well. There's no point in NOT voicing it because he already knows what my opinion is. And damn it, he needs me to play ball. He will pitch relentlessly, until I swing. I'm sure there is a season of life where it's easy to step out of the batter's box, but it's hard to do this while still in the thick of things.

The tendency to do this is a mix of personality and having had an enmeshed relationship. In his mind, subconsciously, I'm sure, I have a role to play. So he will persist until I fall in line and play my part as the other side of reason, because he uses our conversation as a vehicle for processing his decisions, stresses, fears, etc. He doesn't even realize he's doing this, nor does he understand how this pervades an otherwise natural desire for mother's validation. But framing it in this light has helped me deal with it in the moment.

It's also helped me to better understand why he's like this even with insignificant things, like which movies are better: classic Star Wars or newer ones. It's because he leans on me to an external display of his inward thought process. And this is where it has most worn me down, his incessant need for me to - not validate, but engage - to be the other half of his brain. It's emotionally draining! And it's still a hair trigger for even routine conversations, because it is fueled by the age typical need to extract himself from the family's sway in order to become an adult individual. I don't know if this is the case with your daughter, but you have my commiseration either way! 

 

This!

So the best thing to do for me is "Hey, this was your decision. If you're having second thoughts, don't throw that out on me. "

I have to stay friendly and neutral.

So when my daughter throws out the "What?"

My goal is to stay uninvolved. She's not looking to converse. She's processing. She's wanting to blame. It's easier to pick a fight with me than to deal with the "I might have made a mistake this weekend." 

It's not about expecting mom to bite her tongue. She already knows what I think so I don't have to say it.

So lots of neutral responses are needed. "Hey, either way, whether you studied all weekend or took a break to rest your brain, I'm sure you'll be fine." 

15 hours ago, Kim in Appalachia said:

 

I know it's not funny, but this made me want to laugh.  I also have a dd20.  I can not say boo to that child. If I even question something she takes it the wrong way.  

As a sort of example (I'm not going to put all the details, hence the sort of), She recently told me about a problem she was having and ASKED me if her solution was a workable one (Her exact wording was, "That should be fine, right mom?") When I said that I did not think so, she got very upset.  She told me I was wrong and that I didn't understand.  I'm sure she went on to tell her friends that I don't have faith in her (That's her normal response). Normally I keep my mouth shut, no matter what she asks, but this time it was a little important so I thought I would chime in.  But she takes everything I say and assumes I am being critical or judging or thinking she's not capable.  In reality my dd impresses me a huge amount (which I do tell her). I think she is smart, beautiful, hard working, and dedicated.  But she is still quite insecure.  She needs my affirmation.  I try to give it as much as I can.  

I will also say that she has improved, a lot, in regards to this, in the past year.  I can see her maturing (which is awesome).  It will happen.  

It's a stage of life.  It will get better.  

Yeah, I've got one of these 20 yr olds too.

15 hours ago, Mimm said:

I haven't read any of the replies, but I think one of the most important skills parents of adult children have is biting their tongue. I have a mother who took a long time to develop this skill and a MIL who mastered it early in my husband's adulthood and guess who had an easier time getting along with their adult children? I have a 17 year old and I keep my opinions to myself the vast majority of the time.

Yep.

OP, I had a similar conversation with my 20 yo dd just last night that left my tongue all chewed up. She took a 7 day trip to CA right smack in the midst of finals week. She left last Tuesday and came back this Tuesday. She took a final yesterday and didn't do as well on it as she wanted, and that one grade brought her A down to a C. Which really bothered her. I know it was not wisest to take that trip at that time, but she never asked for my opinion. But in the midst of the grousing about the grade, I did lots of "Awww...that's too bad.  That really stinks." 

[fairfarmhand]

Oh, this made me think of this.

 

 

[SKL]

Another thought.  When someone keeps wanting to argue or whine about something that doesn't seem to merit it, usually there is a bigger but harder to articulate issue under the surface.  When my much-younger sister does this, I listen for a while and then say, "you sound frustrated, but I don't think you would be that upset if ___ were the only issue.  There must be something deeper going on.  So, what are you really upset about?"  And then the real stuff comes out, which, while I can't necessarily solve the problem, at least puts a more rational focus on things.

[Bluegoat]

I'm not sure, in a text, what could have been more neutral without actually saying something false.  It's not like she was reading body language or tone. It sounds like the daughter knew because she just knew her mom.  Or maybe had asked her advice beforehand (OP?)  There is just no way you can always pretend you have no viewpoint, when someone knows you always thought X or because they asked you.

[Scarlett]

I would like to point out that GB has never said her DD is mentally ill. Good grief.  She is an anxious teen, like many teens are.  GB is her mother and doesn't need to be on constant high alert to say the perfect thing to her dd about her dd's choices in everyday mundane life.  

GB you got a lot of practical advice on how to redirect and let it go.  I found a lot of posts on this thread helpful, so thanks for posting even tho it did go a little sideways.  

[Tree Frog]

8 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

I notice in your text conversation that first she ascribes emotions and thoughts to your fairly anodyne statements and then starts justifying her actions when you haven't explicitly questioned them.

Frankly, that'd drive me up the wall. I can't abide mindreading, and regardless of what you should say my response would probably involve a whole lot of silence, followed by "Whoops, honey, I guess I didn't see these texts come in! You know I'm always losing this phone!" If I can engage in a little mindreading of my own, it looks like she didn't feel she made the right choices. Why she has to argue with you instead of arguing with herself, I don't know.

But if I absolutely had to be roped into this conversation, and if I knew the person I was speaking to was prone to this behavior when stressed, I'd probably want to affirm their feelings (finals are scary!) and also emphasize two main facts: a. you can always retake a class if you don't like your grade and b. there's still time to study.

This is easier said than done. I have family members like this. I've had screaming arguments with them. This did not help.

I would emphasize a third point: It's ok to make decisions that are different from what I make. Some decisions will be good and some won't. Those decisions that aren't very good are what offers the most growth as the young adult figures out why it was a poor choice. That's part of growing up.

[Lady Florida.]

I do think some of it is personality type. I had the opposite problem with my mom. She was how your daughter is. If she noticed I was doing anything differently from how she did things she took it as a direct insult to her parenting. Also like your daughter she'd instigate things by saying, "tell me if you think I'm wrong" then would go on to tell me the issue. If I did think she was wrong and answered honestly, no matter how gently I said it, she'd spend the rest of the conversation trying to bring me around to her point of view. I always tried to convince her that it was possible for us to both be right and just disagree. She either wouldn't or couldn't accept that. It led to me biting my tongue on a lot of subjects.

All that is to say I don't know if there is much you can do. Hopefully in your dd's case it's partly due to age. If not, I do feel for you. I get it.

[kitten18]

1 hour ago, Danae said:

Several people have made comments that the OP's daughter was mind reading or fishing for objections or assuming things about her mother's opinions that her mother hadn't said.  I disagree. I the OP made her opinion quite clear in the opening series of texts.

"I just got a new dress and shoes, what do you think?"  "The shoes are very nice."

"I repainted the living room and hung some of my art!" "It's a lovely paint job."

"I've worked so hard, I've done everything I could." "Yes, you have been working very hard."

The OP's daughter correctly interpreted that statement as her mother disagreeing that she'd done everything she could. OP, if you want to stop this type of conversation I suggest NOT using the technique of finding the parts of your daughter's statements that you agree with and affirming those. It sounds like a good idea in theory, but in practice your daughter obviously sees through it. Instead answer with something on topic but not directly responding to the claim. Something like: "I've worked so hard, I've done everything I could." "Then all that's left is to make sure you get a good night's sleep and a healthy breakfast before the test." Or: "I've worked so hard, I've done everything I could." "Why don't you call me after the exam so we can celebrate that you got through it?" 

This is excellent. 

[regentrude]

Not sure whether this helps:

A friend's young adult DD has similar issues with seeking approval and reassurance from the adults in her life. She is in therapy for anxiety. Her therapist pointed out that these are unhealthy coping patterns for her, born out of her need to have control and to relieve anxiety. the therapist instructed her to tell her mother to shut down the conversation when they enter this pattern, so that the young woman can learn to break the cycle. My friend is now working on learning to recognize when they start this pattern of validation seeking and will tell her lovingly but firmly that the conversation is not productive and disengage.

[BlsdMama]

I'd suggest she read the book by Covey.

One of the final tools for communication is this:  Seek to understand, not to be understood.  

She is not actually wondering WHY you believe the way you do.  She is seeking to make you understand her way.  It's very unfair to you.

My go to would be:

I understand that you love lilacs.
I understand that you think purple is the most lovely color in the world.
I understand they are a lovely bush.
I understand that they bloom early.

Despite understanding all these things (explaining that you have actually heard her reasons for X)  I honestly still do not love lilacs nor am I planting one.  Thank you for the discussion but I do not want to continue it.

[goldberry]

6 hours ago, Joker said:

I will say that my ds only does this with me. I don't worry about trying to train him in how to deal with everyone else in the world because he deals with them beautifully. His, and my, psychologist just like to say that I am his super safe place. He once had such awful anxiety he could barely leave the house at all but now he's on no meds and functions just fine. But, when he gets in his head like your dd it is always me that he has those types of convos with and they can be often at this stage (transitioning to adult hood and college). He doesn't spend time projecting his issues and faults onto everyone else. I guess I am how he vents and deals with that anxiety at the moment. Yes, it can be really frustrating and draining for me but I know it won't be this way forever and I know it's truly just as frustrating and draining for him. So, when I said I let these little things go, just agree and reaffirm and don't offer up my own judgements/opinions, that is where I am coming from. 

This makes a lot of sense to me, thank you.

 

12 hours ago, Tap said:

F  

"I grew up in the 80s. Your world is completely different from mine.  Yes, I went to college, got married, had babies etc, but as far as the path to be an adult and how you will get there are vastly different now from mine 20 years ago.  We didn't have social media pressures, the internet (for good or bad), instant news, and a myriad of other things that have sped up the time in which we receive, process and forward information.  You are going to make different decisions from me, because your world is nothing like mine at 20yo.

 

Really good perspective, and very true.

8 hours ago, Knock said:

Yes, my validation and approval are important to him, but that's not the actual crux of what's going on in this type of conversation. It's more like he's using me as the devil on his shoulder - the "bad cop" side of his brain - as he tries to process the situation in question. He know what my opinion is going to be (the visit wasn't an ideal time, or, I'd have done things differently) and COUNTS ON IT to process the situation. 

If I avoid bringing it up or engaging, HE WILL INTRODUCE "my" opinion (which is accurately perceived, due to our closeness) into the conversation. There's no hiding it because he knows me too well. There's no point in NOT voicing it because he already knows what my opinion is. And damn it, he needs me to play ball. He will pitch relentlessly, until I swing. I'm sure there is a season of life where it's easy to step out of the batter's box, but it's hard to do this while still in the thick of things.

The tendency to do this is a mix of personality and having had an enmeshed relationship. In his mind, subconsciously, I'm sure, I have a role to play. So he will persist until I fall in line and play my part as the other side of reason, because he uses our conversation as a vehicle for processing his decisions, stresses, fears, etc. He doesn't even realize he's doing this, nor does he understand how this pervades an otherwise natural desire for mother's validation. But framing it in this light has helped me deal with it in the moment.

It's also helped me to better understand why he's like this even with insignificant things, like which movies are better: classic Star Wars or newer ones. It's because he leans on me to an external display of his inward thought process. And this is where it has most worn me down, his incessant need for me to - not validate, but engage - to be the other half of his brain. It's emotionally draining! And it's still a hair trigger for even routine conversations, because it is fueled by the age typical need to extract himself from the family's sway in order to become an adult individual. I don't know if this is the case with your daughter, but you have my commiseration either way! 

 

YES.  This a million times, but I forget it often.  My DH, who is much like DD and sometimes understands her better, said that DD processes information outside, by talking, that I typically process inside my head.  Thank you so much for reminding me.  

[nixpix5]

13 hours ago, 8circles said:

I seriously needed to step away from the computer when I read this. 

Nobody has suggested that as a rule, mothers need to use counselling skills in order to talk to their adult children.

Anxiety is a read medical condition and to suggest that a mother should not learn techniques to speak to her child with anxiety in a way that is helpful for her child in that medically fragile moment is irresponsible at best.

Do you also hire a nurse to administer abx to your child? Or is it just mental illness that you think doesn't deserve parental care?

I love your heart and passion here but I respectfully disagree with this as a counselor. I do think a mother can be gentle with their child with anxiety (and mothers should he gentle with all kids regardless of any mental health struggles). However, treating anxiety successfully is a toggle between CBT (becoming aware of one's faulty thinking and thought stopping/correcting thinking errors) coupled with exposure therapy (with slow and methodical exposure in steps to what causes anxiety). What OP is doing, probably without being aware of it, is providing both of these above methods in a loving and safe way organically. 

What your well meaning way provides is maintaining of the anxiety. It doesn't make it worse technically, but it also doesn't make it any better. In counseling I call that a holding pattern, egg shells or status quo. 

It sets up a pattern for the one with anxiety to need all future relationships to egg shell walk to maintain the state of well being. The longer the pattern is held, the more likely it will be long term and harder to treat. 

[StephanieZ]

On 5/2/2018 at 3:52 PM, goldberry said:

I'm trying but she's instigating it often because she wants the approval.  I am less successful and keeping my mouth closed AFTER she instigates it.

 

Well, it sounds to me like your dd craves your approval. 

Why not just give it to her?

Find things you approve of, and gush about them. Change topics to things you approve of. Gush. Stretch your own brain and find ways to approve of things you didn't think you approved of. Gush. 

Change yourself, and see if your change meets your daughter's need. How awesome would that be? It's really not healthy or good for relationships to criticize others, so this change will be good for YOU, too. ?

 

I'm a believer in the concept that met needs dissipate, while unmet needs tend to become pathological/problematic. So, my guess would be that your dd hasn't gotten enough parental approval for HER. (That doesn't mean YOU did anything wrong, but it does mean there are things YOU can do to help. It may just be her personality quirk, or a relationship need that was unmet in some OTHER relationship with her dad or grandparent or sibling or whoever . . . )

Challenge yourself to go one conversation, then one day, then two days, then a week, without saying ANYTHING critical. Challenge yourself to say 10 praises (with no backhandedness!) in a conversation, etc. Stretch. Grow. I am finding that having adult children requires just as much personal growth as did having little ones! Lots of new ways to grow, lol.

I think it's awesome you are so insightful as to recognize this need in your child. Good luck meeting it!

 

 

[regentrude]

9 minutes ago, StephanieZ said:

I'm a believer in the concept that met needs dissipate, while unmet needs tend to become pathological/problematic.

But that no longer works when pathological patterns have already developed.

A person with OCD for example may have the very strong need to check her house for the tenth time to be absolutely assured that the gas is off and the windows are closed. The more she verifies, the worse the need becomes - it does NOT go away. The need to engage in certain coping strategies may never dissipate because meeting them is not the solution to the problem. So if the reassurance seeking is pathological, giving more reassurance will only dive the person stronger into the pattern of depending on outside validation.

[Bluegoat]

I've wondered about this idea of unmet needs needing to be met.  It seems to me there are a lot of examples where that is clearly untrue.  Is there some sort of principle that makes those different?

[StephanieZ]

On 5/4/2018 at 12:55 PM, regentrude said:

But that no longer works when pathological patterns have already developed.

A person with OCD for example may have the very strong need to check her house for the tenth time to be absolutely assured that the gas is off and the windows are closed. The more she verifies, the worse the need becomes - it does NOT go away. The need to engage in certain coping strategies may never dissipate because meeting them is not the solution to the problem. So if the reassurance seeking is pathological, giving more reassurance will only dive the person stronger into the pattern of depending on outside validation.

 

I can imagine this is correct for some mental disorders. I have no reason to think the OP's daughter is mentally ill. I don't think it's unreasonable or abnormal for any person, no matter their age, to crave approval from their parent and to be distressed by parental criticism.

I also don't think it's healthy to regularly criticize your children, no matter their age. I certainly think that parental criticism of adult children should be reserved for rare circumstances of dangerous or truly immoral behaviors. I also think relationships and human beings thrive under nurturing and supportive relationships, not critical ones. Most of us moms tend to err towards too much criticism, whereas most adults still crave parental approval and suffer from the lack of parental expression of that approval. I find it really sad.