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New update: Trying to wrap my head around this (Non-faith based vs Faith based events)


TeenagerMom
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1 minute ago, SeaConquest said:

 

Like I said, I would shocked if the facility does not have an anti-discrimination clause in its rental agreement. They are pretty standard. I have no problem with people of faith meeting at a public facility. I have a problem with people of faith using a public facility to explicitly discriminate against protected classes, and I doubt it is legal in the OP's state. That is why I asked her state. I was going to look up what her state laws are, instead of speculating.

 

This is a faith group.  One that has particular beliefs about same-sex relationships.  In very much the same ay the women only swims - often attended by Muslim or orthodox Jewish women here - are not accepting male swimmers on the basis of their religious belief.

You can't really get diversity by squashing diversity.  It comes from allowing all kinds of people and beliefs and groups, which will mean sometimes it is one group, sometimes another.  The type of diversity that tries to decide what kind of diversity gets precedence is just another hierarchy.  

If the facility is forced by complaints to not allow this kind of group, it will have repercussions that people may not like.

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2 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

 

The swimming pool issue is one of balancing rights of two different groups in the context of furthering public policy.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/01/opinion/everybody-into-the-pool.html

No compelling public policy is furthered by allowing religious bigots to exclude atheists and gays from their fragile homeschooling environments.

This is a different scenario entirely. The editorial  you posted is about accommodations that prevent others from using the facility during public access hours, not a private rental. 

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6 minutes ago, scholastica said:

Don't those anti-discrimination policies generally apply to the facility. As in, the facility can't discriminate? By your logic, the white supremacists would not be able to reserve public parks for their rallies. Apparently, they can, despite their disgusting, discriminatory beliefs.

 

The white supremacists can reserve the space, depending on a lot of complicated first amendment analysis related to the probability of violence at the rally, but the white supremacists cannot turn around and ban black people from using the space as well. That's the distinction people don't seem to be understanding here. The religious group isn't just trying to use the space; they are trying to prohibit other taxpayers from using the space *on the basis of their status in a protected class*.

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3 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

 

This is not in dispute. The question is whether the religious group can then go on to use the public space in a way to prohibits other people from using the space, on the basis of a protected class.

During their private event, yes, they can. It is not in dispute. It has been settled in the court system long ago. 

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1 minute ago, SeaConquest said:

 

The white supremacists can reserve the space, depending on a lot of complicated first amendment analysis related to the probability of violence at the rally, but the white supremacists cannot turn around and ban black people from using the space as well. That's the distinction people don't seem to be understanding here. The religious group isn't just trying to use the space; they are trying to prohibit other taxpayers from using the space *on the basis of their status in a protected class*.

No one is banning anyone. They simply aren’t invited to a private event. 

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4 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

 

This is not in dispute. The question is whether the religious group can then go on to use the public space in a way to prohibits other people from using the space, on the basis of a protected class.

They get to use the space because they rented it for a period of time outside of the normal business hours of the facility. This is a preseason event. People who don't homeschool aren't being allowed in either. 

This would only be the case if indeed, she did pay a fee for her specific group. If the facility sponsors the event, all applicable laws about non-discrimination apply.

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Seaconquest, I think you are confusing public and private use.

Public spaces can be for use by private groups.  For example, I can have a birthday party at a pool where it is a public swim, or one at a public pool that has times where it is not open to the public and is available for private events.  Anyone can book it for their private event, and they can invite whomever they want.  The pool cannot discriminate against particular groups who book, though.

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4 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

Seaconquest, I think you are confusing public and private use.

Public spaces can be for use by private groups.  For example, I can have a birthday party at a pool where it is a public swim, or one at a public pool that has times where it is not open to the public and is available for private events.  Anyone can book it for their private event, and they can invite whomever they want.  The pool cannot discriminate against particular groups who book, though.

 

Yes, I get all that. My point is that most facilities have anti-discrimination clauses in their rental agreements. Your local library allows your private group to meet there, but only if you don't discriminate against *protected classes* of people in the process. Those federal protected classes are expanded by some state laws. 

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20 minutes ago, TeenagerMom said:

 

Our library has the same policy that we had to sign to get a room for our board meetings.  Not that anyone would want to attend a homeschool group board meeting.

Yes, our Campfire group wasn't limited to homeschoolers because Campfire USA wouldn't allow us to have such a closed group. However, all of our meetings and nearly all of our activities took place during the school day, so it's not like we expected an influx of public and private school kids.

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This isn't a private event, it's a home school event hosted by a public facility.  Chances are when they realized she was only inviting religious groups they as a facility choose to invite more.

I'd call the bigoted woman back and inform her that your group already prepaid to attend, so you WILL all be attending, and if her and the other Pharisees she knows are too good to associate with normal people SHE might want to tell her group not to come, and then be sure to Thank God that she isn't a dirty sinner like your group, because we all know what Jesus thought of people like that.

But I'm in a confrontational kind of mood today.  And come to think of it, I'm in the Midwest right now and I would never do that in the South.  I'd just show up with my group and let this awful woman make a fool of herself if she wants to.

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For example, in *Texas*:

1.4 Use of Library meeting rooms will not be permitted to groups that practice, profess, or have as their policy (official or unofficial) discrimination against any person on the basis of sex, race, religion, sexual orientation, color or national origin; nor shall access be permitted to groups affiliated with organizations which practice, profess or have a policy of such discrimination.

http://fortworthtexas.gov/library/meeting-rooms/meeting-room-use-policy/

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Teenager Mom, you said in the op that the facility would be contacted you regarding the “multiple errors” they had made regarding the event. Have they contacted you yet? How soon is this event taking place?

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22 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

 

The swimming pool issue is one of balancing rights of two different groups in the context of furthering public policy.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/01/opinion/everybody-into-the-pool.html

No compelling public policy is furthered by allowing religious bigots to exclude atheists and gays from their fragile homeschooling environments.

So, the Muslim group and my city were breaking the law because they didn’t allow people of other faiths into their event?

The event I am talking about did not allow anyone other than the Muslim group in. No Christians, No Orthdox Jews, No Buddhists, etc. Allowed. Personally, I thought it was wonderful and did not feel the least bit discriminated against, even though I wasn’t allowed in at that time. 

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5 minutes ago, MFG said:

Teenager Mom, you said in the op that the facility would be contacted you regarding the “multiple errors” they had made regarding the event. Have they contacted you yet? How soon is this event taking place?

Not yet. I called this morning and the person handling the event is off today.

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3 minutes ago, scholastica said:

So, the Muslim group and my city were breaking the law because they didn’t allow people of other faiths into their event?

The event I am talking about did not allow anyone other than the Muslim group in. No Christians, No Orthdox Jews, No Buddhists, etc. Allowed. Personally, I thought it was wonderful and did not feel the least bit discriminated against, even though I wasn’t allowed in at that time. 

 

Did they "not allow"? Did you attempt to go and were told no?

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Just now, scholastica said:

So, the Muslim group and my city were breaking the law because they didn’t allow people of other faiths into their event?

The event I am talking about did not allow anyone other than the Muslim group in. No Christians, No Orthdox Jews, No Buddhists, etc. Allowed. Personally, I thought it was wonderful and did not feel the least bit discriminated against, even though I wasn’t allowed in at that time. 

 

That is my understanding, yes. Generally, they would have to show some sort of compelling public interest to allow such a thing. We have all sorts of community cultural events all around our city, which contribute to the wonderful diversity we enjoy here. But, in public facilities/grounds, those events are open for all to enjoy. 

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OP, I wouldn't go.  Cut off ties. Build up your own inclusive group to be stronger.  This is what we ended up doing locally,  after a few too many heartbreaks trying to make a larger community.  There are people who homeschool to avoid being sullied, and you are unfortunately in the "defiler" category.

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11 minutes ago, TeenagerMom said:

Just as an aside.....

I have ZERO issue if she is contracted and paid the fees involved.  I will be asking for comped tickets, etc for my group if this was indeed a mistake made by the facility but a private contract is just that.

 

You have zero issue that protected members of your group are being discriminated against in a public facility? Please tell me that I am misunderstanding.

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2 minutes ago, poppy said:

 

Did they "not allow"? Did you attempt to go and were told no?

No. The pool can be rented out for private events. You can pay a fee and have the pools to yourself. People do this for birthday parties, family reunions and private swimming events all the time. If you are not part of the group, you are not allowed in.

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1 minute ago, scholastica said:

No. The pool can be rented out for private events. You can pay a fee and have the pools to yourself. People do this for birthday parties, family reunions and private swimming events all the time. If you are not part of the group, you are not allowed in.

Again, as long as the group affirms that it is not discriminating against who they allow into their group on the basis of a protected class. Birthday parties are fine. Birthday parties that prohibit black people are not. This group expressly said that they did not want members of protected classes to attend.

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1 minute ago, SeaConquest said:

Again, as long as the group affirms that it is not discriminating against who they allow into their group on the basis of a protected class. Birthday parties are fine. Birthday parties that prohibit black people are not. This group expressly said that they did not want members of protected classes to attend.

No, this was not a birthday party. The local mosque rented the pool and only Muslim women and children could swim during that time. No-one else was allowed in. 

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1 minute ago, scholastica said:

No, this was not a birthday party. The local mosque rented the pool and only Muslim women and children could swim during that time. No-one else was allowed in. 

 

Did anyone else try to come and was turned away? Again, I would be shocked if a public facility was used in such a manner.

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Just now, SeaConquest said:

 

Did anyone else try to come and was turned away? Again, I would be shocked if a public facility was used in such a manner.

No-one else could have come at that time. The coordinator of the group renting the facility controls who enters during the allotted time.

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9 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

 

You have zero issue that protected members of your group are being discriminated against in a public facility? Please tell me that I am misunderstanding.

 

I have zero issue if there is a private contract renting the facility to a private homeschool group that can designate who they want to be invited to their party.  I don't expect to be invited/allowed into the corporate events or private birthday parties there either.

I WILL have an issue if this is a facility sponsored event and we are barred on the basis of not being a group that proclaims a specific faith.

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This is what I am envisioning happened:

Non inclusive homeschool group contacted a local nature center* to do a class/guided hike.

Nature center thinks what a great idea let's have a homeschool day and invite all local homeschoolers thinking - more money for the class, possible increased funding for possible future visits, and let's get some kids excited about nature.

Multiple groups are invited and accept while noninclusive homeschool group leader is miffed because she only wishes to socialize with her own kind.

If this is what happened I would view it as open to the public and have fun attending the event.

*Substitute nature center with any other plausible county run activity.

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2 minutes ago, SJ. said:

This is what I am envisioning happened:

Non inclusive homeschool group contacted a local nature center* to do a class/guided hike.

Nature center thinks what a great idea let's have a homeschool day and invite all local homeschoolers thinking - more money for the class, possible increased funding for possible future visits, and let's get some kids excited about nature.

Multiple groups are invited and accept while noninclusive homeschool group leader is miffed because she only wishes to socialize with her own kind.

If this is what happened I would view it as open to the public and have fun attending the event.

*Substitute nature center with any other plausible county run activity.

 

This is very close to what I suspect has happened.

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8 minutes ago, TeenagerMom said:

 

I have zero issue if there is a private contract renting the facility to a private homeschool group that can designate who they want to be invited to their party.  I don't expect to be invited/allowed into the corporate events or private birthday parties there either.

I WILL have an issue if this is a facility sponsored event and we are barred on the basis of not being a group that proclaims a specific faith.

 

If you are the leader of this group, I would ensure that the LGBTQ and non-Christian members know that they are being excluded from using a public facility by this homeschool group. They may not be cool with it.

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42 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

Seaconquest, I think you are confusing public and private use.

Public spaces can be for use by private groups.  For example, I can have a birthday party at a pool where it is a public swim, or one at a public pool that has times where it is not open to the public and is available for private events.  Anyone can book it for their private event, and they can invite whomever they want.  The pool cannot discriminate against particular groups who book, though.

the caveat being - a private group must pay $$ and sign a contract to the muni to have private and exclusive use (usually outside normal hours) of the facility.

11 minutes ago, TeenagerMom said:

 

It is owned and operated by the county government.

so - there are more rules the facility must follow with any event.

4 minutes ago, SJ. said:

This is what I am envisioning happened:

Non inclusive homeschool group contacted a local nature center* to do a class/guided hike.

Nature center thinks what a great idea let's have a homeschool day and invite all local homeschoolers thinking - more money for the class, possible increased funding for possible future visits, and let's get some kids excited about nature.

Multiple groups are invited and accept while noninclusive homeschool group leader is miffed because she only wishes to socialize with her own kind.

If this is what happened I would view it as open to the public and have fun attending the event.

*Substitute nature center with any other plausible county run activity.

this is my thought too.

I wonder if the "is this open to all homeschoolers or your private group only?" (in which case - pay up) question was asked.

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We had almost exactly this same discussion regarding a library event about a week ago. The conclusion I remember was, just because an individual has the initial idea for a event does not give them the authority to run the event  

Same song, different verse. 

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9 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

But what is the facility ? Not enough info. Is this a library ? Who is the organiser - the facility or the leader of the Christian group ?

If it's just an event for Christian homeschoolers, by invitation, and it's in a private facility....I still don't see the problem. There's Christian homeschool conferences here - I just don't go to them. Why would I ? I'm sure they are lots of fun, but I'm not the target market.

 

 

it's a municipal facility and the facility is handling advertising, invitations, etc.   to have a private event, would require the hosting group to handle pr - and pay money.  it's questionable about whether any money was actually paid to reserve the facility - in which case, the facility is hosting it and it becomes a "public" homeschool event.

we have a local water park that will do "homeschool" day prior to actually opening for the season.  it's a private facility - but a public event at a techanically public location.  during the school day - so generally only homeschoolers would show up.  there's another indoor muni water slides pool, so local government owned - if they had a private event, the sponsor would have to be the private organization and they would have to pay money to rent it if they wanted it to be exclusive.

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14 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

But what is the facility ? Not enough info. Is this a library ? Who is the organiser - the facility or the leader of the Christian group ?

If it's just an event for Christian homeschoolers, by invitation, and it's in a private facility....I still don't see the problem. There's Christian homeschool conferences here - I just don't go to them. Why would I ? I'm sure they are lots of fun, but I'm not the target market.

 

 

 

I did explain upthread. It is a publicly own amusement facility run by the county government.  The question of who is the organizer remains unanswered until I speak with the facility.  MY personal only contact has been from the facility and the flyer and sign up sheet I was sent was created by the facility and does not mention the word Christian or the group by name at all.  Myself and the other groups invited were instructed to send our signup sheets to the facility by their marketing manager and we are paying the facility directly.

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OP - if this really will be a public homeschool event - because "it's my party" girl didn't pay to make it private - she might sit in her room and cry because it won't be the exclusive group she envisioned.   in which case - go and have a good time.

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It really does sound like regardless of whose idea the homeschool event was, the municipal facility is the one coordinating and running the event. So, all the speculation about private groups wishing to rent out public spaces for an (in this case certain brand of Christian) homeschool event doesn’t sound applicable in this situation. 

Now, Ms. Snooty Christian may have thought she was renting out a space for her definition of Christians; however, unless she signed a contract and paid a bunch of money up front, she has no say in who is invited. Again, it sounds like the facility is running the event in which case the facility staff decides who is included, not Ms. S. C. 

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1 minute ago, TeenagerMom said:

 

I did explain upthread. It is a publicly own amusement facility run by the county government.  The question of who is the organizer remains unanswered until I speak with the facility.  MY personal only contact has been from the facility and the flyer and sign up sheet I was sent was created by the facility and does not mention the word Christian or the group by name at all.  Myself and the other groups invited were instructed to send our signup sheets to the facility by their marketing manager and we are paying the facility directly.

That sounds like a public event to me. You should go and have a good time. Maybe she suggested it, thinking she would retain control, realized now that she doesn't and is trying to control it.

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1 hour ago, SeaConquest said:

 

I would be interested in seeing the case law.

The first two are US Supreme Court Decisions and the second two are state court decisions.

Lamb’s Chapel v. Center Moriches Union Free School District, 508 U.S. 384 (1993)

Good News Cub v. Milford Central School, 533 U.S. 98 (2001)

Wallace v. Washoe County School District, 818 F. Supp. 1346 (D. Nevada 1992)

Shumway v. Albany County School District, 826 F. Supp. 1320 (D. Wyo. 1993)

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54 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

Again, as long as the group affirms that it is not discriminating against who they allow into their group on the basis of a protected class. Birthday parties are fine. Birthday parties that prohibit black people are not. This group expressly said that they did not want members of protected classes to attend.

 

You are incorrect. A private event is private. You do not have to ask anyone to attend. If a public organization, say, a parks and recreation department, allows the Smith family to rent a picnic pavilion for a family reunion, they must also all First Christian Church to rent a picnic pavilion for their church picnic. The city has no say in who is or is not invited to the events. If the city were to host a picnic at a pavilion, it would not be allowed to discriminate because it is the city. However, private organizations can invite whoever they want to their party, and they don't have to allow party crashers.

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With the additional information it seems pretty clear that this is a county sponsored event. The only way Ms. Control Freak can try to control the event is to attempt to intimidate those who are not in her handpicked group. Ignore her and make your plans as if she had never contacted you. 

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I want to thank you all for your input.  I really do genuinely appreciate it.  My non-homeschool friends don't really understand the dynamics and I can't really talk to my homeschool friends about it since I am trying to avoid causing a crapstorm of drama for our group.  We get looked down upon so much and excluded (waterpark days, book sales, skating days, etc that the Christian groups coordinate to do, which are for sure private rentals) that I don't want to cause more divisiveness than there already is.  I have worked SO hard to make every other group feel like they are welcome to join us for our events and refer new members their way when they are seeking a faith based group, etc. 

On another note: I think I now know why attendance has been poor at another facility's homeschool day.  I am the one who sends all the information out to the groups for them.  So far only 1 faith based group has attended besides us.

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11 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

So I was trying to figure out where the disconnect is, because I have seen the anti descrimination language on facilities rental contracts. 

The key i think is “discrimination BASED on the protected class.”  When a group, say Whiteland High School , class of 1996 rents out a pavilion at, say White River State Park, for their reunion, they can exclude people who were not part of that graduating class EVEN if the people they are excluding are of a protected class, because the exclusion isn’t on the BASIS of the class protection.  People are excluded on the basis of having paid a ticket or not.  But if tickets are open to members of the protected classes, then there isn’t discrimina based on the protected class. 

 

 

The rental facility is the one that can't discriminate on the basis of a protected class. They can't decide to rent to a group of atheists, but not a group of Mormons, or a group of black people but not a Latino group.

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17 minutes ago, TeenagerMom said:

I want to thank you all for your input.  I really do genuinely appreciate it.  My non-homeschool friends don't really understand the dynamics and I can't really talk to my homeschool friends about it since I am trying to avoid causing a crapstorm of drama for our group.  We get looked down upon so much and excluded (waterpark days, book sales, skating days, etc that the Christian groups coordinate to do, which are for sure private rentals) that I don't want to cause more divisiveness than there already is.  I have worked SO hard to make every other group feel like they are welcome to join us for our events and refer new members their way when they are seeking a faith based group, etc. 

On another note: I think I now know why attendance has been poor at another facility's homeschool day.  I am the one who sends all the information out to the groups for them.  So far only 1 faith based group has attended besides us.

Your graciousness is showing. 

They didn't get to exclude anyone because it isn't a private rental so now they are being sore losers about it. . Or at least that is how I read the situation.  If they want to exclude themselves  like they do at the other facilities homeschool day, it isn't your fault. 

The only thing I am unclear about is why the facility thinks that they have made any mistakes.  I personally would not make a fuss but I wouldn't back down either about  having the right to attend a homeschool day when you are legitimate homeschoolers. 

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