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Bambam

What do you expect from a Dual Credit class?

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Due to something I've just discovered locally and talking with some other moms, I'm wondering what others expect from a dual credit class?

Do you expect the content to be equivalent to a traditional college course? Even if all the students are high school students? Would location (on college campus or on high school campus) alter this answer? 

Would you expect the reading list to change if the students were all high school students vs. all traditional college students?

If some national test were traditionally given to all the students of one course, would you expect a different test for the dual credit students?

Would you expect any modifications be made to the class to accommodate the dual credit students? If so, please explain. 

Disclosure - my kids have always taken dual credit classes on the college campus with traditional college students. I doubt any of the other students knew they were dual credit, and I have no idea if the professors knew they were dual credit. I've always assumed that all dual credit classes expected the same level of rigor from the students regardless of whether they were traditional, non-degree-seeking, dual credit, whatever. So, now I'm wondering if this is not normal. 

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I expect the class to be at college level with no special considerations as to whether the student is in high school or not.  It's a COLLEGE class, after all.

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I also expect the class to be a college level class with the exception that a semester college class might be spread over the full high school year.

In reality, I don't see this happening in classes that are taught at our local high schools.

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If a semester class was spread over a year, that wouldn't be dual credit, in my mind. DC, to me, means a regular college class, given AT the college, by college profs, with regular college students. My students averaged 30+ university credits. No changes were made in the classes due to the fact that they were 14yo! One of mine had only 29 credits, where one of mine had 65. When it came to transfer some of those credits, the schools they ultimately went to would NOT give credit for "college" classes given at the high school. Period. Full stop. Our high school attempted the pretend "college" classes at the high school, but dropped them. They wouldn't transfer. 

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I expect the course content at the CC to be the same as at the High School, but of course the prof may go above the minimum if the section needs more challenge.  In many cases, the CC adjunct IS the high school teacher.

The only modification is that the test and class has to fit in the high school period, and the high school will have more students in the section in Econ and Math.  Writing center and Math center help is almost impossible as we are 60 minutes on a good day from the CC, chances are they are both closed by the time the student can arrive from the High School. The high school instructor office hours may or may not be more convenient.  

The only DE at the high school cours I was disappointed in was an Early College in the High School course, and it appeared the institution was not monitoring appropriately.  I am very sure that no one on the U's campus had to cook anything and bring it in as part of an assignment.....frankly the instructor replicated what was done in advanced project based 2nd grade course my son had been in.  I declined to pay for college credit and I struck that institution off the college prospect list.  

Every single DE course my dc took had no syllabus; that was three different providers.  The on campus courses - from one provider - all did. Never asked anyone that attended the other two providers later.

The sole accommodation we had was that the DE at high school instructors did not give exams during AP exam week one, where a student that was doing half day at the high school and half day at the CC would have had his final exam at the CC plus his AP exams at the high school. DS actually couldn't enroll in the CC version because of the conflicting exams.

My sons did compare the high school version DE and the CC versions of math and econ, no difference in content, difficulty of exams same. 

Attendance policies should be checked ahead of time...they vary, and we had to plan ecs in order to meet attendance.

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1 hour ago, Bambam said:

Due to something I've just discovered locally and talking with some other moms, I'm wondering what others expect from a dual credit class?

Do you expect the content to be equivalent to a traditional college course? Even if all the students are high school students? Would location (on college campus or on high school campus) alter this answer? 

Would you expect the reading list to change if the students were all high school students vs. all traditional college students?

If some national test were traditionally given to all the students of one course, would you expect a different test for the dual credit students?

Would you expect any modifications be made to the class to accommodate the dual credit students? If so, please explain. 

Disclosure - my kids have always taken dual credit classes on the college campus with traditional college students. I doubt any of the other students knew they were dual credit, and I have no idea if the professors knew they were dual credit. I've always assumed that all dual credit classes expected the same level of rigor from the students regardless of whether they were traditional, non-degree-seeking, dual credit, whatever. So, now I'm wondering if this is not normal. 

 

 

So we have two options - community college courses "hosted" by the high school (taught at the high school) or just normal college classes at the a community or (semi) local college/university.  In our state, the state will cover costs for approved courses dual enrolled students, including books.  

My own experience has been with my kiddos:

DD took CC class (Russian) in Oregon.
DD took Russian II at a semi-local private college.
DS took many CC classes at the CC - not at the high school.  I doubt anyone realized he was a high school student.
DD #2 is enrolled to begin three classes at the CC next fall, again, same scenario as above.

It was actually here, on the board, that someone suggested to me that I might *prefer* the CC classes to the high school versions.  Because CCs have such a wide age range there is less tom-foolery.  It was true. 

I will tell you that my comfort level at the CC is pretty good - I finished my AA a year and a half ago and I didn't find any of the lit classes risque.  I am sure some of the material could have been objected to (adult content, rape, etc. in a play) but I didn't find the teachers extraordinarily pushy about an agenda or a genre.  I cannot say the same about my local university, where I currently am.  

So, for us, the CC classes are a perfect fit.  And, yes, if my kiddo is getting college credit and I'm using the college class to prep for the university, then I absolutely expect that they will perform like a college student with no tweaks or breaks given, no different assignments, no different tests, etc.  My thoughts are if your kid isn't up to the challenge then your kid probably shouldn't be dual enrolled and getting college credit for a sub-par class - he didn't earn it.  (Sorry, re-read that and it sounds personal, lol.  I mean the generic "he" as in any given student.)

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I would expect the class to be equivalent in every respect to a college class taught on a college campus. No modifications because the students are in high school, no dumbing down of material, no cutting coverage. If they earn college credit, it needs to be equivalent and not just kind of similar.

The class has to prepare students for any subsequent college class for which this course is a prerequisite.

 

ETA: From what  head about "college" classes taught at highschools, this seems often not to be the case.

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Haven't read other replies yet.

TL;DR.  If you aren't ready for college, don't do college early.

Yes I expect the material and course expectations to match other college courses.  

If a student is not ready for college level work (pace, difficulty or content)  I think it is the student's responsibility to adapt or withdraw. 

Accommodations I would hope for is an understanding if students have to miss class for events like PSAT or college scholarship trips.  I would also hope instructors would be supportive of requests for letters of recommendation. 

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One other accomodation would be if it is taught on campus at the high school, it should follow the hs schedule. Students should not be assumed to have the ability to get cross town to a college over fall or spring break.  (To me that is a matter of fitting the schedule to the institution where instruction is happening,  not a matter of dumbing down for high school students. )

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Equivalent in level, scope, pacing, and input and output expectations to a regular college class. 

This is why AP classes are not really equivalent to college classes IMO, because the pacing is frequently half that of a college class, the class time to homework time ratio is skewed to too much class time, the output expectations generally follow the high school model (lots of little assignments and no one assignment affects the grade too much), and the materials may be modified to be more "appropriate" for a high school audience.  I suspect that "college in the classroom" type courses operate the same way.

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My kids have always done DE on campus.  I spoke to a professor at our CC about DE classes at the high school and he was very against them for a number of reasons that I hadn't thought of before.  One thing he said is that (when taught by high school teachers) instructors don't have the same freedom that a true college professor has because parents can still be involved at the high school level.  He also talked about shorter class periods, interruptions in class due to pep rallies, assemblies, standardized testing, etc.  He had a lot of good points.  

 

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Thank you all for confirming my understanding that dual credit classes *ARE* college classes. If my kids couldn't handle the level of work required, the schedule, the communication with the instructor, etc, I would have had them withdraw them from the class. 

 

 

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My kid does DE on campus too.  They're real college classes.  There may be 1 or 2 other DE kids the class, though he would never know it.

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DS only took one CC course. He was on campus and he was treated the same as any other CC student. DE students were required to meet with the advisor every couple weeks to see how they were doing.

The only accommodation was that he was told that if the roads were bad in winter and we (his parents) didn't want him on the road we should contact her and she would tell the instructor and figure out what to do about that missed class - which would not be the case if he was a regularly enrolled student. She said they understand that just a year or two more of driving experience makes a big difference. As an Indiana mom who frequently has to deal with icy and snowy roads, I appreciated that :)

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I would expect a dual credit course to be a college course, otherwise, it would not be worth college credit imho. Anything expected of a college student on the college campus, should be expected of the dual credit student whether on a college campus or in a high school setting. Dd15 has taken a number of community college courses online through the community college and I expect her to take the course like any other college student including all involvement with the professor if she has an issue or a question about a grade. If a student is not ready to handle a dual enrollment course like a college student, the student should be taking high school courses.

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My oldest is in an early college high school program.  The program is housed on the university campus, but during the first two years of DE credits they meet with their cohort only for the DE classes (about 35 kids).  After that they are in classes with open enrollment to the university students.  I think it is a nice transition for DD because she looks very young, and is petite, so would stand out as a 15 year old.  Also, being in a cohort (where they are all in the same DE classes each semester) has advantages.  But the actual courses are college level courses.

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Dual enrollment is a high school student taking a college level course. At our CC you actually have to sign a form stating that you understand and agree your child will be taking a DE course & will be expected to perform at the same level as other students. Also, if my daughter fails a course she can no longer be dual enrolled. 

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I’d expect it to be on campus and there to be absolutely no changes to the class due to any high school students taking it.  If I worried that my son wasn’t mature enough for some of the content in an ENG101 class, for example, then I wouldn’t have him take it until he matured.  I woudn’t expect the college to change.

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If it were for a group of all high schoolers and a literature class, I'd expect the reading list might be tailored to the group. Not dumbed down, but college instructors I know have said they try to tailor reading lists to interest and challenge particular groups - like adult ed students vs. traditional students. But I wouldn't expect it to be dumbed down. And if it wasn't tailored, that's fine too. I know some parents especially get up in arms about "risque" topics in literature for their DE students and it's like, um, no. College class, college material.

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My students would never have expected to skip class due to weather. After all, the regular students are expected to be there. And sometimes fall or spring breaks were the same for the public school (which affected us due to sports) and the university. If not, well, too bad. Students knew that they were signing up for university classes, on the university's schedule. My students had to miss a class or two for high school sports, but they made arrangements beforehand, just like the university's athletes. Funny story--my oldest asked to miss a Friday class due to All-State Orchestra. The professor: "Why are you going to a HIGH SCHOOL thing?" "Well, sir, I'm a high schooler; I'm a junior." "Really? You've been in orchestra forever!" "Yes, sir. I started when I was 10. I'm only 16." 

We got a great deal with DE--only $100 a credit, and no fees. We bought books. Way back when we first started, we paid a lot more. However, in CO, ps students can only get DE paid for if the ps doesn't offer the course, and they must be at least a junior. The superintendent tried to make it that only low-income could take DE! The whole thing was rather stupid, as if you're on free lunch, you're unlikely to be able to afford books at $200 a pop. The schedule doesn't work out well for ps students, as our local school has this weird A, B, C schedule that seems to have no rhyme or reason. The only way the kids can really do DE is if they were taking very few classes in a semester. Registering for DE was always a pain because it seemed that they had a new person every semester. They'd hand me the 12 pages of things for the principal to sign, and I'd hand it back, and explain, no, I didn't have to get those signatures. 

One advantage for DE: my students could lifeguard all year round. The high schoolers who lifeguarded in the summer couldn't work in the winter due to work/study requirements. The kids would open the pool at 0530, stay for practice, and then head to class. It got them up and going. 
 

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3 hours ago, Margaret in CO said:

My students would never have expected to skip class due to weather. After all, the regular students are expected to be there. And sometimes fall or spring breaks were the same for the public school (which affected us due to sports) and the university. If not, well, too bad. Students knew that they were signing up for university classes, on the university's schedule. My students had to miss a class or two for high school sports, but they made arrangements beforehand, just like the university's athletes. Funny story--my oldest asked to miss a Friday class due to All-State Orchestra. The professor: "Why are you going to a HIGH SCHOOL thing?" "Well, sir, I'm a high schooler; I'm a junior." "Really? You've been in orchestra forever!" "Yes, sir. I started when I was 10. I'm only 16." 

We got a great deal with DE--only $100 a credit, and no fees. We bought books. Way back when we first started, we paid a lot more. However, in CO, ps students can only get DE paid for if the ps doesn't offer the course, and they must be at least a junior. The superintendent tried to make it that only low-income could take DE! The whole thing was rather stupid, as if you're on free lunch, you're unlikely to be able to afford books at $200 a pop. The schedule doesn't work out well for ps students, as our local school has this weird A, B, C schedule that seems to have no rhyme or reason. The only way the kids can really do DE is if they were taking very few classes in a semester. Registering for DE was always a pain because it seemed that they had a new person every semester. They'd hand me the 12 pages of things for the principal to sign, and I'd hand it back, and explain, no, I didn't have to get those signatures. 

One advantage for DE: my students could lifeguard all year round. The high schoolers who lifeguarded in the summer couldn't work in the winter due to work/study requirements. The kids would open the pool at 0530, stay for practice, and then head to class. It got them up and going. 
 

 

Just to clarify, my comment about break was when the class normally meets at the high school but is taught by a college instructor.  In this case I think the course should follow the high school break schedule. 

If the students are leaving their high scho to take some if their classes at a college then they have to take what they get schedule wise. (Which probably means not getting a mid semester break.)

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I'm in Minnesota, and they don't care about weather here either with regards to DE students and driving.  Plenty of minors wait to get their license here anyway.  We have decent public transit.  Most kids just get dropped off.  My kid could easily take a single bus to his DE campus.    They did completely close campus a couple times this winter due to weather but that was for everyone.  

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12 hours ago, Garga said:

I’d expect it to be on campus and there to be absolutely no changes to the class due to any high school students taking it.  If I worried that my son wasn’t mature enough for some of the content in an ENG101 class, for example, then I wouldn’t have him take it until he matured.  I woudn’t expect the college to change.


Pretty much this.  All my kids' DE classes have been at the CC, on campus, no one knows that they're DE students instead of regular college students.

I have to admit to being skeptical of "DE" classes tailored to high school kids, especially those taught in a high school building.

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No one knew my older three weren't college students anyway--they were tall and mature. My ds? Well, at 14 he looked like an undersized, poorly-fed 12yo, so it was pretty obvious. And the last one passed for a long time until her comp sci prof let it slip. We never asked for any special consideration, but we were very careful with their classes and profs. Several started in music theory, and learned nothing new. They did learn classroom, however, and they all ended up being piano tutors. And 2 started in lifeguarding, but were easily the strongest swimmers there. I'm quite sure that the success of our hsing was due in large part to DE. 

Another story--ds's freshman comp class was based on a book of readings about some bizarre study of cultures in Ireland--the fact that studying cultures changes cultures. The idea was that NO ONE would have any previous knowledge of the subject matter. Fast forward a few years, and ds was taking some horrible thing for his "diversity" credit--the only thing he could take around his ROTC duties. Well, guess what one of the readings was--yep, the book! He found it quite easy to write a really good paper on it as he had spent an entire semester dissecting that book. He prof asked him later and he explained. They got a good chuckle out of it. 

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I mean, I feel like it's a trick question...

By Dual Credit you mean a university or college class offered to high schoolers or in which a high schooler is enrolling...

SO I think it should be a college class, with college level material and I do not expect it to be altered in any way to fit my student either in content, length, style of presentation or grading.

One caveat:  I never heard of a Dual Credit Class being offered AT a high schooler, but if it were, I would assume they'd choose cleaner reading material, since the prof would be coming to the school to teach high schoolers, he or she should get a clue about mature content...

(Many of the books chosen for our community college English 1A classes are not something I would read even as an adult- dark, disturbing books that are just not healthy to read IMO...so we look at the booklist in hte bookstore, then make a list of clean profs, then go to Rate My professor and pare down the list further. Some of the reading is just weird eastern mysticism.  Some classes require weird community service field trips.  OThers, as I said have dark, disturbing themes.  After all of that we usually only have a few sections available :)  )

 

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So, my expectations and the reality of DE can be quite different. While I expect dual credit to be a college course that high schoolers are taking, same content, same instruction, that isn't what our local school district provides. They offer DE credits taught at the high school with high school teachers (with specific qualifications) doing the teaching. They have class time 5 days/week for the entire school year. They may cover the same material, but they do it with roughly triple the instructional time that a college would have. There is more busy work and lower expectations because it is high school, not college teachers. I've talked to kids that went from that experience to college and it is a tough transition. Many kids graduate with 30+ DE hours from the local high school, but they've never been on campus, taken classes only 2 or 3 days/ week or compressed a course into a semester AND they go to college ready to skip over the freshmen level classes where they are expected to still be learning how to deal with those changes. 

My kids did DE enrolled directly at the colleges (one at a CC, one at a local state U) in classes where they were the only high schoolers in the room. I don't think the DE courses on high school campuses are typically equivalent, but there may be exceptions.

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1 hour ago, Mom22ns said:

So, my expectations and the reality of DE can be quite different. While I expect dual credit to be a college course that high schoolers are taking, same content, same instruction, that isn't what our local school district provides. They offer DE credits taught at the high school with high school teachers (with specific qualifications) doing the teaching. They have class time 5 days/week for the entire school year. They may cover the same material, but they do it with roughly triple the instructional time that a college would have. There is more busy work and lower expectations because it is high school, not college teachers. I've talked to kids that went from that experience to college and it is a tough transition. Many kids graduate with 30+ DE hours from the local high school, but they've never been on campus, taken classes only 2 or 3 days/ week or compressed a course into a semester AND they go to college ready to skip over the freshmen level classes where they are expected to still be learning how to deal with those changes. 

My kids did DE enrolled directly at the colleges (one at a CC, one at a local state U) in classes where they were the only high schoolers in the room. I don't think the DE courses on high school campuses are typically equivalent, but there may be exceptions.

 

And that is exactly why many colleges won't accept DE credit done at a high school. 

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There are a couple of options in dual enrollment and it would depend on what type they are taking.  Wherever the classes are, I would expect the quality to be the same, but that doesn't mean that's what actually happens. 

Dual Enrollment where the student takes college courses as a non-degree seeking student on the college campus and gets high school credit for it. I'd expect whatever is expected from the college students. Dual Enrollment to me, is more free form in that the student can choose college classes and apply those toward high school credit.

Dual credit, on the other hand, has had more program requirements through my school district where specific college classes apply to specific high school classes for credit. My school district puts out a list of approved dual credit courses for high school students that are in their community college high schools and for high school students that want to take community college courses and need to know what course title would be used on their transcript. 

Concurrent enrollment where certified or qualified high school teachers teach a college level course at the high school for college credit. I would hope they were the same, but in my school district, I would only trust the courses taught at the magnet schools to be taught at the same level as colleges. Those are usually geared for applying directly to an AAS technical trade degree and they are given hands-on experience. 

 

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