Using AAR level 2 readers with Barton level 5?

[ghcostafamily]

Im going to start my daughter on the level 2 AAR readers while using Barton, and I wanted to know who has done this before?

She has a tutor and is currently on Barton level 5 lesson 6. Her tutor looked at the readers from AAR and said it should be fine. Just wondering if anyone has any experience using these two together?

The tutor has all the readers for level 3, and my daughter has already read them. Ive looked at High noon books, but honestly the website confuses me! 

[PeterPan]

Are you going to have to pay money for them? Barton has readers that are challenging. How old is the dc? I don't see what you'd go backward and read the level 2 readers. What I did was get Fountas & Pinnell readers from the teacher lending library at the local college. You might see what you can get for free that way. Going backward sounds bleh. I'd definitely go forward. Have you been drilling the Barton stuff to fluency? She should be way beyond AAR2. She should be able to read non-controlled text. You might look at adding some math word problem workbooks or grade leveled high interest material. I've got some non-fiction comprehension materials I've been using with ds that are fun. You read a page (social studies, science) and answer 5 multiple choice questions. It's enough without being too much. You could start her at the 1st or 2nd gr level and popcorn read to get her comfortable. They come with pages of the vocabulary first, so they're primed for comprehension and get some decoding/syllabication practice.

[Lecka]

I don’t know what you have access to, but in the AAR student book there are warm-ups for the stories.

They have some words to practice and a picture with a vocabulary word.  

There will be a short (like 2-3 sentences) introduction to the story in the teacher manual.

Depending on how you are using them, you might want to go over some words ahead of time, talk about some vocabulary words, or give a short introduction.

I am using AAR and also doing it a little out-of-order.  

Okay, my son has a language delay and longer sentences and less-familiar vocabulary words are harder for him.  The AAR readers do have longer sentences and some less-familiar vocabulary words.  I don’t know if they will be harder that way than Barton readers, or if it will matter for your daughter.  If she just needs stuff to be decodable it would be a non-issue.  

There are also some words in AAR that are cumulatively reviewer a lot within AAR, so if there are any words that seem a little harder — they might be words that were gone over in the student book before it was time for the story in the reader.  So if you see any words that seem harder you can keep in mind they were previewed a lot within AAR and decide if you want to practice them separately, too.  

[Lecka]

I do think there are cute stories and I do not find them super easy at all.  They are not super easy.  They are decodable but I think they are at least 2nd grade reading level, and very dense with words that need to be sounded out.

They aren’t the kind of thing where a sentence has mostly sight words and then just a word here and there likely to need to be sounded out, ime.  My son I do it with now does know a lot of sight words, and can read non-decodable readers, and AAR 2 readers are much more challenging for him.   

[PeterPan]

https://www.teachercreated.com/products/search-results.php?q=non-fiction+reading+comprehension  Here's a link to what I'm using, but also look at Evan Moor. They have books for Fables, tall tales, all kinds of cute stuff a girl might like. And Scholastic had a series of grade leveled picture study books related to history. You study the historical photograph, read a differentiated reading passage, and then do a page of discussion questions together. So when the book says differentiated reading, it means it will have 3 grade levels of of the passage. It's really handy with my ds, because in his case his reading is now better but his language (expressive language) is weak. So I can use a lower grade level to keep the discussion questions simpler but bump the reading level to the top. You might do the opposite or whatever strikes you.

[PeterPan]

Somebody doing Barton 5 should already be reading at a 3rd -4th grade reading level if they've been drilled to fluency. If the tutor has been nailing what's in the Barton manuals, they shouldn't need AAR2.

Now I say that, and it's totally ok to go back and read anything, ANYTHING for fluency. Doesn't have to be at that level. But then why pay money for AAR when basically anything will work? Frog & Toad will work. Picture books will work. Decrease the amount on the page, increase the engagement factor, and almost anything should work. That's where the grade leveled workbooks are nice, because the amount on the page is brief but engagement is high.

[Lecka]

My 9-year-old daughter read the AAR 2 readers earlier this year when I was doing them with my son.... she found them engaging and she liked them.  I think they have a good kid appeal for her age.  I don’t think they are too stilted or too babyish or anything like that that can be frustrating about readers.  

[PeterPan]

Have you tried her on comic books yet? 

[Lecka]

But those other things aren’t decodable, they use a lot of sight words and kids can start guessing more when they have mostly sight words and don’t sound out as much as they read.  Depending on the kid but I think there are good reasons to stay with decodable.  

[Terabith]

Doesn't Barton not even do final silent e words till level 6?  I'd think it would be really hard to do anything beyond Barton readers until after that.

[Lecka]

They aren’t used through Broken Robot, so maybe 40 pages (off the top of my head)?  I think the last reader for Level 1 is worth looking at, too, if the first reading for Level 2 looks good.

 

[Lecka]

I looked, there are 90 pages in the first reader of AAR 2 before final silent e is introduced.

I glanced at the AAR 1 readers, and it would depend on how they looked to a particular child, but I could see doing them just to have some variety of reading material.  

Especially if you are borrowing them or something.  

 

[Terabith]

Yeah.  I could see AAR being good.  But I don't see how without the silent final e you could read even the easiest of trade books.  Not Frog and Toad.  Not Divergent.  That's my hesitation with Barton.  It's a great program, easy to use, really super solid...but it's around three years before a kid can read ANYTHING.  I mean, some kids might pick up on that stuff on their own.  But a lot of dyslexics aren't going to, or it promotes guessing, and what not.  

[Lecka]

I think a lot of people go ahead and teach the final consonant e to their kids, earlier than they are introduced in Barton.

Also, I think a lot of kids have been introduced to it in school or a previous reading program.

I didn't use Barton either, with my oldest son, though I got Barton Level 1.... but he is in public school and it is something he actually learned at school.  His thing was more that he struggled with blending, and had a lot of trouble with blending consonants.  So much trouble.  But he learned the final consonant e at school.  There are a lot of really easy-to-sound-out words with silent e that don't require blending any consonants or blending very many sounds at all, so he could just do it.

I think that's true for a lot of kids in practice, but not everybody, just depending on prior exposure and what is hard. 

Anyway, I do think that too, but it seems that in practice quite a few kids who go through Barton do already know easier words with final consonant e, or their parents do teach it ahead at some point so they can have more variety, when the parents think it is a good time.

My older son had a lot of trouble with sight words, but my younger son knows a lot of sight words.  He is also 9 so he has just had a lot more reading instruction than my older son had had when I was working with him.  But my 9-year-old has a language delay and autism, he doesn't have dyslexia, so it's not the same anyway. 

[ghcostafamily]

9 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Are you going to have to pay money for them? Barton has readers that are challenging. How old is the dc? I don't see what you'd go backward and read the level 2 readers. What I did was get Fountas & Pinnell readers from the teacher lending library at the local college. You might see what you can get for free that way. Going backward sounds bleh. I'd definitely go forward. Have you been drilling the Barton stuff to fluency? She should be way beyond AAR2. She should be able to read non-controlled text. You might look at adding some math word problem workbooks or grade leveled high interest material. I've got some non-fiction comprehension materials I've been using with ds that are fun. You read a page (social studies, science) and answer 5 multiple choice questions. It's enough without being too much. You could start her at the 1st or 2nd gr level and popcorn read to get her comfortable. They come with pages of the vocabulary first, so they're primed for comprehension and get some decoding/syllabication practice.

I had her read for 15minutes today from the AAR level 2 reader and it went well! I think its honestly just right for her, a little easy, but she has a ways to go with fluency. I think this is a good level for her. She hasnt been drilled to fluency, if you mean she can read all the fluency pages under 2 minutes. I have a stack that we go through daily, along with her reading for 15minutes.

[ghcostafamily]

7 hours ago, Lecka said:

I looked, there are 90 pages in the first reader of AAR 2 before final silent e is introduced.

I glanced at the AAR 1 readers, and it would depend on how they looked to a particular child, but I could see doing them just to have some variety of reading material.  

Especially if you are borrowing them or something.  

 

Yes, her tutor gave her a few lessons on the silent E so she could read a few books. Its not required, I asked for something for her to read daily to help her. Shes almost 10 and gets tutoring 3-4 times a week for an hour each session. I just wanted something extra to help her along. 

7 hours ago, Lecka said:

I think a lot of people go ahead and teach the final consonant e to their kids, earlier than they are introduced in Barton.

Also, I think a lot of kids have been introduced to it in school or a previous reading program.

I didn't use Barton either, with my oldest son, though I got Barton Level 1.... but he is in public school and it is something he actually learned at school.  His thing was more that he struggled with blending, and had a lot of trouble with blending consonants.  So much trouble.  But he learned the final consonant e at school.  There are a lot of really easy-to-sound-out words with silent e that don't require blending any consonants or blending very many sounds at all, so he could just do it.

I think that's true for a lot of kids in practice, but not everybody, just depending on prior exposure and what is hard. 

Anyway, I do think that too, but it seems that in practice quite a few kids who go through Barton do already know easier words with final consonant e, or their parents do teach it ahead at some point so they can have more variety, when the parents think it is a good time.

My older son had a lot of trouble with sight words, but my younger son knows a lot of sight words.  He is also 9 so he has just had a lot more reading instruction than my older son had had when I was working with him.  But my 9-year-old has a language delay and autism, he doesn't have dyslexia, so it's not the same anyway. 

 

9 hours ago, Lecka said:

But those other things aren’t decodable, they use a lot of sight words and kids can start guessing more when they have mostly sight words and don’t sound out as much as they read.  Depending on the kid but I think there are good reasons to stay with decodable.  

Exactly, even Hooked on Phonics is filled with sight words! Its crazy, but I have a ton of leveled readers that she caant/isint ready for yet. I already have all 4 levels of AAR that I use with my other daughter so it seemed the best match for her. 

9 hours ago, Lecka said:

My 9-year-old daughter read the AAR 2 readers earlier this year when I was doing them with my son.... she found them engaging and she liked them.  I think they have a good kid appeal for her age.  I don’t think they are too stilted or too babyish or anything like that that can be frustrating about readers.  

I totally agree! My daughter reads a ton of pages each session, which builds her confidence! She loves the cute pictures and the books feel so "Real" because of the black and white pictures and the hardback.

9 hours ago, Lecka said:

I do think there are cute stories and I do not find them super easy at all.  They are not super easy.  They are decodable but I think they are at least 2nd grade reading level, and very dense with words that need to be sounded out.

They aren’t the kind of thing where a sentence has mostly sight words and then just a word here and there likely to need to be sounded out, ime.  My son I do it with now does know a lot of sight words, and can read non-decodable readers, and AAR 2 readers are much more challenging for him.   

 

[ghcostafamily]

9 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Have you tried her on comic books yet? 

No. We have BA and she loves that, but its hard for her to read, so Im assuming it would not build her confidence.

9 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Somebody doing Barton 5 should already be reading at a 3rd -4th grade reading level if they've been drilled to fluency. If the tutor has been nailing what's in the Barton manuals, they shouldn't need AAR2.

Now I say that, and it's totally ok to go back and read anything, ANYTHING for fluency. Doesn't have to be at that level. But then why pay money for AAR when basically anything will work? Frog & Toad will work. Picture books will work. Decrease the amount on the page, increase the engagement factor, and almost anything should work. That's where the grade leveled workbooks are nice, because the amount on the page is brief but engagement is high.

She hasn't been drilled to fluency, if you are referring to the sheets that she reads under 2 minutes. I have copies of the extra ones that Barton suggests for practice, and they are very challenging for her.

9 hours ago, PeterPan said:

https://www.teachercreated.com/products/search-results.php?q=non-fiction+reading+comprehension  Here's a link to what I'm using, but also look at Evan Moor. They have books for Fables, tall tales, all kinds of cute stuff a girl might like. And Scholastic had a series of grade leveled picture study books related to history. You study the historical photograph, read a differentiated reading passage, and then do a page of discussion questions together. So when the book says differentiated reading, it means it will have 3 grade levels of of the passage. It's really handy with my ds, because in his case his reading is now better but his language (expressive language) is weak. So I can use a lower grade level to keep the discussion questions simpler but bump the reading level to the top. You might do the opposite or whatever strikes you.

Ill look at this and see! Thanks for the link and the info :)

9 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Are you going to have to pay money for them? Barton has readers that are challenging. How old is the dc? I don't see what you'd go backward and read the level 2 readers. What I did was get Fountas & Pinnell readers from the teacher lending library at the local college. You might see what you can get for free that way. Going backward sounds bleh. I'd definitely go forward. Have you been drilling the Barton stuff to fluency? She should be way beyond AAR2. She should be able to read non-controlled text. You might look at adding some math word problem workbooks or grade leveled high interest material. I've got some non-fiction comprehension materials I've been using with ds that are fun. You read a page (social studies, science) and answer 5 multiple choice questions. It's enough without being too much. You could start her at the 1st or 2nd gr level and popcorn read to get her comfortable. They come with pages of the vocabulary first, so they're primed for comprehension and get some decoding/syllabication practice.

NO, I already own all 4 levels of AAR. We used to have a tutor that used F&P, and honestly they are soo filled with sight words it was hard for her and she guessed a LOT. That was before her Barton Tutor though. 

[ghcostafamily]

Thank you all for replying! It helps to have feedback on this. I dont know any other homeschoolers where I live that have a dyslexic kiddo that I could chat with and get feedback like this.

We did reading out of the AAR level 2 book today and she did really good, so I think we will just progress through them naturally and see how it goes. I also have all the Level 2 and 3 readers from Sonlight that I will add in once shes able to handle non-controlled readers. 

 

[PeterPan]

If you already own the readers, sure use 'em. However if she hasn't drilled the Barton stuff to fluency, that might be something to put some energy into. I loaded every single word, phrase, and sentence from the lessons in Barton into Quizlet and drilled and drilled them. I drilled the words to fluency, then the phrases to fluency, then the sentences to fluency. Now I'm not experienced with other kids, only my two (one dyslexic, one not). I drilled both. With ds (dyslexic), I drilled that carefully and I didn't move on till he was nailing them. Like you might go back to Barton 2 and drill to fluency. 

Yeah, I agree the F&P readers are utter bunk for actual reading instruction. Totally with you. They were charming for ds because he was fluent, solid on those words and the decoding, just needed more confidence and comprehension. 

I'm really of the drill them to fluency camp. Some people like to read to fluency. I'm not sure there's a right or wrong there, just saying that might also be the difference. Like if you have a strong gut sense and it's a recognized good practice, just roll with it, kwim? I drilled my kids. You might also drill (yeah, more drilling, lol) RAN/RAS. Huge, huge dividends and costs you nothing. Have you worked on working memory? That too helps decoding by just making it easier to hold their thoughts and get the word together without losing it. That can also be free to work on. I like free. :)

[Terabith]

I think that could work really well for some kids, but oh my goodness, there is no way I could have gotten my kids to do that much drilling.  It wouldn't have flown with my older kid because, well, she was 4.5 when I sat her down and said, "Now we're going to learn to read," which in retrospect was probably too young, but it was quick and fast and relatively painless.  But had we had to DRILL, yeah, that would have been painful.  I used Headsprout for her and let the computer do all the painful repetition stuff, because it made it fairly engaging, and then we spent a few minutes reading books, and bam, we were done.  I did follow up by having her use Time 4 Learning's second grade level, which was easy for her decoding wise and had short passages that they played "beat your time" with, but that didn't last very long. She still finished that level well before the end of her kindergarten year.   With my younger one, who was dyslexic, she was older, but I still had to use a ton of variety, but it was mostly spend a few minutes working on decoding skills (mostly Webster's speller for reading but not spelling), spend some time using the computer for variety (Headsprout followed by Funnix 2), and some time reading real books.  Maybe 45 minutes total, but split into several shorter sessions.  She just flat would have refused to comply with drill, because she would have found it frustrating and tedious.  In retrospect, she might have done better with Barton, but people kept telling me she wasn't dyslexic.  And she did, in fact, learn to read pretty well and without too much difficulty, although a lot more difficulty than I expected given her IQ and general language skills.  She just never translated the ability to read into the ability to spell, no matter what we did, until I put her in Wilson tutoring with a tutor from the autism school.  She still can't spell most sight words, but she's pretty solid on most phonetically regular words.  (Her spelling was always very phonetic.  Just completely wrong.  No visual memory at all.  I still think she would have benefited from good vision therapy, but that didn't work out as I'd hoped.)  She's always going to require spellcheck and an editor, but I feel way more optimistic about her ability to function as an adult than I did a few years ago.

[MistyMountain]

Barton Level 5 did not even get to silent e words, many vowel teams or r controlled vowels yet. It actually says on the  Barton website that they she does not recommend reading books until they are past level 8 because they will not have the decoding skills for most books. Some kids may intuit it and get to a 3rd or 4th level or more at level 5 but not off what is coming from the Barton lessons. They still have more patterns to learn.

https://bartonreading.com/levels/ I found where she said that in the question where they asked if there are stand alone books like the stories in the level. She says that until they get past level 8 they can not read most library books and can revert to guessing.

I liked using the level 1 books when I was using level 3 and could not use Barton because we were away. It was good practice. The level 2 have silent e but if they could do silent e words they might be good fluency practice. 

[MistyMountain]

12 hours ago, Terabith said:

Yeah.  I could see AAR being good.  But I don't see how without the silent final e you could read even the easiest of trade books.  Not Frog and Toad.  Not Divergent.  That's my hesitation with Barton.  It's a great program, easy to use, really super solid...but it's around three years before a kid can read ANYTHING.  I mean, some kids might pick up on that stuff on their own.  But a lot of dyslexics aren't going to, or it promotes guessing, and what not.  

 

This exactly. A lot of the success stories are the ones that do intuit the other stuff probably because a lot of them did other stuff before Barton but expecting a kid to be at a higher reading level just from level 5 is encouraging guessing in those that only picked up level 5 skills. It other wise takes around 3 years.

[ghcostafamily]

12 hours ago, PeterPan said:

If you already own the readers, sure use 'em. However if she hasn't drilled the Barton stuff to fluency, that might be something to put some energy into. I loaded every single word, phrase, and sentence from the lessons in Barton into Quizlet and drilled and drilled them. I drilled the words to fluency, then the phrases to fluency, then the sentences to fluency. Now I'm not experienced with other kids, only my two (one dyslexic, one not). I drilled both. With ds (dyslexic), I drilled that carefully and I didn't move on till he was nailing them. Like you might go back to Barton 2 and drill to fluency. 

Yeah, I agree the F&P readers are utter bunk for actual reading instruction. Totally with you. They were charming for ds because he was fluent, solid on those words and the decoding, just needed more confidence and comprehension. 

I'm really of the drill them to fluency camp. Some people like to read to fluency. I'm not sure there's a right or wrong there, just saying that might also be the difference. Like if you have a strong gut sense and it's a recognized good practice, just roll with it, kwim? I drilled my kids. You might also drill (yeah, more drilling, lol) RAN/RAS. Huge, huge dividends and costs you nothing. Have you worked on working memory? That too helps decoding by just making it easier to hold their thoughts and get the word together without losing it. That can also be free to work on. I like free. :)

our tutor drills her on the fluency sheets that are part of the lesson, meaning she has to read it under a certain amount of time to be able to pass the lesson. She gave me some extra fluency sheets to practice on daily with my daughter, but they are from level 4 and they are hard for her. I think we just need to keep at it for a while so she becomes fluent with them. 

[PeterPan]

How often is she with the tutor? People's severity varies, obviously. With my ds, I found 3 times through a list was usually enough to get him there. So we drilled three times a day and saw progress. If she's only drilling the days she's at the tutor's, that would be an area would you could step up. You could ask the tutor for the fluency pages for the previous levels. I think we started with 2.

It sounds like a lot, but it's really not. It was like oh we're in the car, here's your quizlet, we're waiting 5 minutes, here's your quizlet, kwim? Not a big deal, not arduous. But definitely back up, sounds like.

[ghcostafamily]

Yes, I totally get it! We have all the fluency lists for level 4, that the tutor gave me that we’re going to start going through. She’s with the tutor 3-4 times a week for an hour each time. 

I used quizlet once when I was in school, I need togo in again and look at it.

[TheAttachedMama]

I personally found the "I See Sam" readers MUCH better than the AAR readers for building fluency.    (If you are going to buy anything for extra practice, I would recommend them.)   

At first glance, they look like every other phonetic reader set.   But they "drip feed" in the phonics so slowly in those books and then review, review, review, review like crazy that it really helps build fluency in reading.  (We still had to read each set at least 4 times though. hahaha)   I also like these books because they purposely make it difficult for the child to guess.   Even in the first book, they have character names which are very similar (Sim vs. Sam, Mat vs. Mit...and later spot vs stop which helped show my kids what a difference even one letter can make in a word.  Children are unable to use picture clues to figure it out. )   Honestly, those books are what finally taught my children to read.     I didn't use them for teaching, but we did use them for extra practice.   I used OG concepts for introducing the phonograms and practicing them.  We also practiced each new word in the I see sam book using letter tiles, etc.   

Like others have said, the only problem is that the "I See Sam" readers introduce two letter phonograms quite early.   And these are not covered in barton until quite late.  The vowel team "ee" (for example) is introduced in the first level of the "I See Sam" books and then practiced like crazy.  (They learn to decode the word "see"....and a little later the word "meet".)   The author says this is "on purpose" so children learn early that two letters can work together to make one sound.   They also learn the long e sound in open syllables in the first book set.   (They decode the word "me" for example.)  And they are introduced to "th" and have to decode "this".   So there are going to be sounds that they have not learned in Barton yet.    However, there are a ton of two letter phonograms in AAR level 2 as well that you probably haven't been taught!  So you are going to have the same problem.   

 

[ElizabethB]

You should be able to teach ee as long E and add in ththe I See Sam readers, they are free to print and try:

http://marriottmd.com/sam/

[scoutingmom]

On 4/29/2018 at 8:26 AM, TheAttachedMama said:

I personally found the "I See Sam" readers MUCH better than the AAR readers for building fluency.    (If you are going to buy anything for extra practice, I would recommend them.)   

At first glance, they look like every other phonetic reader set.   But they "drip feed" in the phonics so slowly in those books and then review, review, review, review like crazy that it really helps build fluency in reading.  (We still had to read each set at least 4 times though. hahaha)   I also like these books because they purposely make it difficult for the child to guess.   Even in the first book, they have character names which are very similar (Sim vs. Sam, Mat vs. Mit...and later spot vs stop which helped show my kids what a difference even one letter can make in a word.  Children are unable to use picture clues to figure it out. )   Honestly, those books are what finally taught my children to read.     I didn't use them for teaching, but we did use them for extra practice.   I used OG concepts for introducing the phonograms and practicing them.  We also practiced each new word in the I see sam book using letter tiles, etc.   

Like others have said, the only problem is that the "I See Sam" readers introduce two letter phonograms quite early.   And these are not covered in barton until quite late.  The vowel team "ee" (for example) is introduced in the first level of the "I See Sam" books and then practiced like crazy.  (They learn to decode the word "see"....and a little later the word "meet".)   The author says this is "on purpose" so children learn early that two letters can work together to make one sound.   They also learn the long e sound in open syllables in the first book set.   (They decode the word "me" for example.)  And they are introduced to "th" and have to decode "this".   So there are going to be sounds that they have not learned in Barton yet.    However, there are a ton of two letter phonograms in AAR level 2 as well that you probably haven't been taught!  So you are going to have the same problem.   

 

 

21 hours ago, ElizabethB said:

You should be able to teach ee as long E and add in ththe I See Sam readers, they are free to print and try:

http://marriottmd.com/sam/

 

Yes, it is true that there will be sounds that they have not learned in Barton yet.... but only 1 or 2 new ones per book.  And they can be pretty easily taught.  I now swear by I See Sam, and wish I had learned of them for my oldest kids.  It is the easiest method for teaching reading of the many many I have used.

[ghcostafamily]

Which reader would I start with?