Comprehension for low verbal kiddos

[Cymbol]

I was wondering if anyone could suggest a reading comprehension curriculum for my 10y son with ASD and language issues.  He can read at a 3rd level but comprehension has been a struggle because of his language issues.  I have been just doing more guided reading with picture books.  I ask him simple WH-questions while we read and then help him retell the story back to me.  I would like to follow a more structured program so I can feel like we’re moving in the right direction.  Thanks!

[PeterPan]

What are you doing for the language issues? Any chance of getting an SLP to help you? A reading curriculum won't solve language issues.

FWIW going through Grammar Processing Program was enough to bump my ds' comprehension for reading. 

[Cymbol]

We haven’t found an slp that has worked out for us.  My son has task performance anxieties so that has been difficult.  The last slp we tested out asked him questions for the whole 30 mins and any time he wasn’t paying attention she would talk louder.  My son doesn’t do well by just asking questions.  He needs more modeling and guiding.  We decided not to continue.  I do his speech “therapy”.  I mostly work on his narration skills...being about to talk about events in his days and very short 4-5 sentence stories I make up.  We also use various materials for sequencing, directions, sentence structure etc.  I have the grammar processing program per the recommedations here and have been going through that book as well.  I was just wondering what other people were using.

[Lecka]

This sounds similar to my son, he does it at school for the most part.  I do read to him at home, too.

The only thing I would add is I was told for inferences, an early stage is making a prediction, so you can guess what would happen next.  You can model making a guess or two guesses.  If you make a reasonable guess and a really silly guess, you can see if he can pick the reasonable guess.  I have heard just keep modeling this, don’t expect kids to catch on to it fast, but they can over time (but like over many months, not a short-term thing).  

I have also been told that for inferences if you can show a “hint” in a story and then go back and review it when it comes up later, and then repeat books so maybe they see the hint later.  

I have not used either of these two but I can mention two programs that have been mentioned here in the past.  

http://www.linguisystems.com/products/product/display?itemid=10658

https://www.nifdi.org/programs/reading/corrective-reading

I’m sorry the speech therapist you saw was that way.  She sounds like she is not very effective, to say the least!

 

 

[Lecka]

And then just to mention two more programs that have been mentioned here wrt reading comprehension....

Visualizing and Verbalizing by Lindamood Bell

Ideachain 

I will see if I remember anything else I have heard of.  

 

[Lecka]

https://www.northernspeech.com/autism-asperger-syndrome/narrative-discourse-builder-tool-display/ 

Narrative and discourse builder, using a graphic organizer.  

[PeterPan]

What a HORRIBLE experience to have with an SLP!!

Northern Speech has a sale right now on some good stuff. I'm looking at the Narrative Discourse Builder Lecka mentioned and some other things. I guess I'm not sure exactly what you want to target. My ds' receptive is much higher than his expressive. The SLPs are finally agreeing there are holes in things I knew/suspected were there and had tried informally to target. Like there's a game from Super Duper (Jeepers Peepers I think) that hits a lot of things like categories, asking questions, etc. My ds struggled in areas on that (which I knew he would), so now I have people agreeing ok, we need to go back and fill these holes. I think when a dc with ASD is verbal they just assume holes are not there, when they can be. So for us, we're needing to go back and catch some things like categorizing and classifying. NorthernSpeech has a kit I think I might get. I'll probably go on the overkill side, just because my ds' other weakness is expressive language. Talking about those things will give him more simple ways to work on expressive language using smaller chunks than narratives. From what I'm seeing of Verbal Behavior theory and language progressions, he needs to do the chunks (comfort describing things, etc.) before narratives. So for my ds, that's a step I need to back up to.

I think you might get a lot of ideas for what to do next by going through Super Duper Inc. Maybe they'll have another sale soon. To me, if you're saying his language is affecting his reading comprehension, that could partly be receptive language. They probably have a tab that says receptive. 

As far as what we do for reading, well I do like the Spotlight on Reading Series. I think it's Evan Moor, but I really forget. It has a bunch of workbooks (inferences, summarizing, compare/contrast, etc.) and they're grade leveled. I use a lot of ebooks with him. But honestly his receptive language scores on a standard scale are basically 100, average, smack even, ready to go. I think that would be really rough to want a reading curriculum to bring up his language scores. But then, if receptive language is holding him back, do you think it's vocabulary or what? I just really don't know. That hasn't been the bugaboo I had to solve, sigh. That's where you could go through Super Duper, see what strikes you as possibly hard for him, and proclaim yourself the expert.

Definitely work as games. What that SLP did sounds inexperienced and torturous. We tried one who had terrific, terrific language herself. Like for your ABA, language bump, she was just stellar. But she had NO CLUE about autism, stimming, recognizing what Zone he was in, etc. It was unworkable. And it was a shame because she could have been good to work with. She really understood how to draw language out of mundane products.

Have you looked at the Magnatab products from Super Duper?

Have you had any language testing (not the CELF necessarily, something more detailed) or a VB-MAPP or something to tell you where to target your efforts? What do you feel is holding back his comprehension when he reads? Reading comprehension is supposedly 80% prior knowledge. I definitely agree with the comment on visualization. It all has to happen. I even think part of the issue is that the print word needs to MEAN something. It needs to create a visual image in the child's head. It's why I went through the Fountas & Pinnell readers with my ds, because he needed to realize the words had pictures he could visualize, if that make sense.

Keep asking questions.

[Cymbol]

Thanks Lecka and PeterPan, I’ll definately check out those resources.  The linguisystem and spotlight books look interesting.  My ds definately is more receptive than expressive.  Expressively, he’s a 2-3 words kiddo...rarely talks in sentences.  I haven’t given up on finding an slp, it’s just the last few haven’t worked out.  I spent the past year looking into his anxiety and medication to see if that would help.  After a few trials of it not helping or making things worst, we took a break.  I’ve been thinking about curriculum because I am planning on joining a charter school next year and I was trying to figure out what I should ask for or at least explore.  I’ll look through this and see if I have any more questions.  Thanks again!        

[PeterPan]

https://www.amazon.com/Verbal-Behavior-Analysis-Expanding-Capabilities/dp/0205458378/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1524573786&sr=8-1&keywords=verbal+behavior+analysis+greer&dpID=51BAVl1EgJL&preST=_SX218_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch

This is the book I'm reading. It will probably answer your questions. I think the co-op could be a distraction, in a way. Obviously do what you want. Just saying it sounds like you also have a lot of work you're trying to do. Do they have funding to provide services or get you an IEP or something? My ds has an IEP and gets funding through our state disability process. That's how I make things happen.

This book lists all the steps. It's a textbook for VBA, and it has everything, how to do every step of the verbal developmental work. Table 4.1, starting on page 120, is the big picture, and the rest of the book is the hows and whys. It's really small print and tedious, but it's all there. From pre-listener skills, sound matching, attention to voice, all the way through narratives and reading. My ds has holes, so it's helping me target what is missing. There's sort of this bizarre situation where SLPs treat language in autism without knowing the VBA developmental progression, and VBA workers (BCBAs, RBTs) do the work of VBA without the tools and training of the SLP. What I've been looking for is someone who is both SLP and BCBA. They're out there but very rare. But when you're like how could an SLP screw up THAT MUCH, that's why. They don't have a clue about what order it develops in for someone in whom it's really not developing. If you want the tedious answers, the actual answers, it's all in this book. It's $$, but it's less than a single therapy session, less than a missed product that didn't work.

I think what's going to happen is that when I go back and fill in some of these developmental steps and holes (and maybe get solid things that were sorta there but spotty), I think it's going to let the rest unfold naturally like a flower. I mean, I can't promise that, but it sure makes sense to me. Otherwise, you're going to the end product (give me a narration, give me a sentence), with a dc who hasn't developmentally done the precursor steps. That's why it's not working.

I also think we have these really high expectations that maybe the system isn't prepared to make happen. That's actually what I've concluded, that it's exceptionally unusual to get enough therapy that it comes together. They max out what the school system is able to provide (15 minutes a week, whatever) and are like ok, he just couldn't do more. We're saying we want to do an hour a day and want to know what could happen if we did that, kwim? And think about it, it just makes sense. You're working on narratives with a dc who is getting out 2-3 words, rarely sentences. Doesn't make sense. There were developmental steps farther back that were lots of ways to use phrases, descriptions, chunks that ARE within reach, chunks he could be doing a lot of. And doing a lot of those earlier steps might get him to where it's easier to grow them into sentences, kwim? I found a Jean DeGaetano book last night on description where she shows how to expand expressions to do this. But your ds isn't there yet. So maybe look at the book (if a grad level text interests you) and just start working through the steps. That's what I'm gonna do. Cuz I figure I might not be awesome but I can do it enough that probably SOMETHING will happen and SOME kind of progress will be made. 

DeGaetano's site is GreatIdeasforTeaching.com https://greatideasforteaching.com/product/developing-comprehension-in-non-or-minimally-verbal-children/  Just look around there. Her stuff is simple to implement, thoughtfully developed, slim but powerful. You wouldn't go wrong with a few books from there, just whatever called to you. Don't even buy ahead, kwim? Just literally pick out 2 or at the most 3 that you're like ok that's really where he's at RIGHT NOW. It's pretty idiotproof, open and go. And so if you got maybe 2 books from there, did them daily for two months, you might be ready for more things. Amazing stuff, not terribly, terribly expensive.

[PeterPan]

Did he do a lot with echolalia? Northern Speech has a book on echolalia and language development. I haven't bought it and I keep dithering. You could watch the previews for the video classes (beginner and advanced) the author teaches. My ds did extensive scripting and echolalia, and what has been lightning bolt for me was realizing what that meant about *how* his brain is processing language and trying to learn. It means that instead of learning parts to whole, like a typically developing child, his brain was going WHOLE to PARTS. It's really astonishing when you think about it, and it explains whey they struggle, even as bright as they are. Their brains just cannot break it down and get it there, kwim?

So then I think part of the idea in therapy is you're trying to help them notice parts. Where they maybe thought "come to the table" was table, like the whole phrase was the thing, you try to shake that up and help them use a part of it in more ways so their brain figures it out.

I conjecture, not being an expert, that traditional speech therapy is very parts to whole. In fact, they'll go so far as to teach parts and not help kids with ASD (or apraxia or whatever) get it into the whole because they assume having the parts will lead to the whole. I'm sure they try to get it in use. PROMPT is rabid about that. Like if we teach a word or sound, we immediately want to build it into small sentences. Like your ds has 2-3 words, so you want to be building those 2-3 words and structuring them so they are sentences! There are lots of awesome sentences to be had with 2-3 words. It would be something to work on in that theory of working parts to whole.

I think it's probably necessary to do both, parts to whole AND whole to parts. I think that's why it feels so confusing or contradictory, but then you can realize which direction you're working at that moment and why. Probably the time is better spent with more emphasis on parts to whole, since that's what is utterly missing and what the VBA book says to do, lol.

[Rosie_0801]

I did, and still do, explain All The Things with whatever I'm reading to dd. Also, it looked like sentence diagramming was going to help. She often doesn't know which pronoun is relating to which noun, or even which noun an adjective is describing.

[PeterPan]

Rosie, have you looked at Grammar Trainer? It's online software developed by a linguist for autism. It seemed like it would hit the pronouns, antecedents, etc. very thoroughly. I couldn't decide if it was tedious or awesome, lol. Maybe if you did the demo it would give you ideas on ways to play with her yourself to work on them? That's what happened to me as I did it. I was like oh, we could do this and this...