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Clergy and the appearance of inappropriate behavior - looking at this from clergy's POV


Liz CA
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Obviously did not know what to call this thread.

I am thinking about the role of pastors / clergy in confidential counseling and the problems that can arise. Do you expect to be able to meet with your pastor in private? What would you think if he suggested a third person needed to be present so he could avoid all appearances of impropriety? Are one on one meetings between a woman and a male pastor behind closed doors unwise? I remember Billy Graham saying that he always has his door open and he sits a certain distance from a woman when they are alone. What precautions would you expect your pastor to take - or would you think it's silly?

I am asking more about precautionary measures. I am not discounting that inappropriate behavior happens in churches; I am wondering what measures church leaders need to take to avoid future allegations.

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The sort of things you're talking about are potentially good and may address liability issues for the minister (though ministers have to be able to get the trust of their congruents, so it's a balance when you bring someone else in the room)... but I think the most important thing is that a church - like any system or institution - have ways in which victims can file a complaint without retribution and have it taken seriously.

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Well, in the parishes that I have been in within my denomination, there is an expectation of being able to meet in private.  It's pretty common for priests to meet people in their office or in the person's home.  I doubt a third party would be welcomed any more than it would for meeting a psychiatrist.  Priests are also expected to hear people's confessions which have to be done in private.

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10 minutes ago, Farrar said:

The sort of things you're talking about are potentially good and may address liability issues for the minister (though ministers have to be able to get the trust of their congruents, so it's a balance when you bring someone else in the room)... but I think the most important thing is that a church - like any system or institution - have ways in which victims can file a complaint without retribution and have it taken seriously.

 

This should definitely be the case. I am also thinking of how to approach this so pastors can avoid the appearance of impropriety or protect themselves from false accusations.

4 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

Well, in the parishes that I have been in within my denomination, there is an expectation of being able to meet in private.  It's pretty common for priests to meet people in their office or in the person's home.  I doubt a third party would be welcomed any more than it would for meeting a psychiatrist.  Priests are also expected to hear people's confessions which have to be done in private.

 

This is precisely why it can be difficult to take precautionary measures and at the same time preserve confidentiality.

The office with glass windows which CAJinBE mentioned seems like it could work if all private appointments take place there.

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23 minutes ago, Liz CA said:

 

This should definitely be the case. I am also thinking of how to approach this so pastors can avoid the appearance of impropriety or protect themselves from false accusations.

 

This is precisely why it can be difficult to take precautionary measures and at the same time preserve confidentiality.

The office with glass windows which CAJinBE mentioned seems like it could work if all private appointments take place there.

 

An office with a glass window isn't private.

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So, the Imam of my local mosque requires a third party when meeting with women alone.  There is a saying in islam that when a man and a woman are alone, Satan is the third party--thus the requirement.

 

Unfortunately, it can cause difficulties for women to receive private counseling though.  I understand the reasoning; however, I wish there was a better solution.

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56 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

Well, in the parishes that I have been in within my denomination, there is an expectation of being able to meet in private.  It's pretty common for priests to meet people in their office or in the person's home.  I doubt a third party would be welcomed any more than it would for meeting a psychiatrist.  Priests are also expected to hear people's confessions which have to be done in private.

I agree about not wanting someone else in on my confession or counseling about very personal things.  But it does set up an opportunity for abuse of power/relationship by those few bad apples. I don’t know what the answer is, but this very subject has weighed on my thoughts a lot recently.  I like the idea of a window where only the spiritual advisor can be seen and the individual seeking advice/absolution/comfort cannot.  At the very least I think a door should remain ajar, but I don’t think it’s enough.  I’m more concerned about clergy-youth interactions, irregardless of genders, because youth generally aren’t as savvy or aware (or confident to stop what’s inappropriate) as adults.

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I met with one of our pastors for some personal issues. He's much older than me. (Like 65 to my 35) So there was that. Kinda like talking to your grandpa. But we did meet in his home. His wife was in the house and we sat in a back family room that had a glass door. The room had large glass windows facing the backyard that was very private. So I felt alone with him but not alone, since his wife was in the house and could see if she wanted to. (She didn't; she sat in the living room reading a magazine or something the whole time. His wife is a trustworthy woman, super sweet. The two of them, as far as I know, are the only ones aware that I visited with him.

I've seen our other pastors counsel people in a private way in public spaces. For instance, they will chat quietly in a front corner of the sanctuary after service when the building is pretty much empty other than maybe a deacon or two. The deacon will kinda run interference, keeping people out of the sanctuary, until the counseling session is over. Our church leadership kinda looks out for one another like this. They wouldn't leave until the pastor was done. That situation isn't completely private as in secret, but it is pretty private.

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In churches where the pastors often tend to have graduate degrees (dual theology and counseling) I've noticed they tend to treat it like a therapy appointment and being alone is fine. If something goes wrong they tell all the elders immediately and refer them elsewhere.

In evangelical churches built around the pastor I've noticed they tend to institute a no-true-privacy rule of some sort the first or second time a woman hits on or accuses the pastor. This might be a home office when the wife is there, an open door or window, a witness, or a second pastor also there to advise.

In large churches  (5+ more pastors) there will often be a female with some sort of therapy degree who exclusively counsels women and couples.

Smaller churches don't seem to have this sort of arrangement IME.

 

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4 minutes ago, Katy said:

In churches where the pastors often tend to have graduate degrees (dual theology and counseling) I've noticed they tend to treat it like a therapy appointment and being alone is fine. If something goes wrong they tell all the elders immediately and refer them elsewhere.

In evangelical churches built around the pastor I've noticed they tend to institute a no-true-privacy rule of some sort the first or second time a woman hits on or accuses the pastor. This might be a home office when the wife is there, an open door or window, a witness, or a second pastor also there to advise.

In large churches  (5+ more pastors) there will often be a female with some sort of therapy degree who exclusively counsels women and couples.

Smaller churches don't seem to have this sort of arrangement IME.

 

 

Yes, this.  I associate this window etc business with denominations like my dads - their pastor is some guy, essentially.

I've seen very little of it where there is accountability in the leadership structure and more requirements to be in that role.

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At our church, they make sure there’s somebody else in the little office building while the pastor has a meeting with a woman. His office has a glass door that faces the entryway. I wouldn’t be surprised if we have a woman counselor on staff soon, just because we are that way. Very communicative bunch. 

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I have no objection to a door with a window. Passers by being able to look in and see nothing untoward is happening is fine, and I don't think that someone being able to see the person visiting the pastor is a big breach of confidentiality.  Door having to be open would be.

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5 hours ago, TechWife said:

 

An office with a glass window isn't private.

 

True. It's not private in that people can see who is in there. It would have to be soundproof or nearly so to provide privacy and that loops back to how people should protect themselves - or can they really protect themselves in those positions and ultimately also protect parishioners / congregants?

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I would not feel private in a room anyone could peer into.
I would not be comfortable going for counseling with a minister who felt he had to be protected from being alone with me.   I see my doctors alone, I see co-workers alone, I see other male volunteers alone.   If a minister sees me as a liability threat- no thank you.

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2 minutes ago, poppy said:

I would not feel private in a room anyone could peer into.
I would not be comfortable going for counseling with a minister who felt he had to be protected from being alone with me.   I see my doctors alone, I see co-workers alone, I see other male volunteers alone.   If a minister sees me as a liability threat- no thank you.

 

Interesting about physicians. Ten years ago, during a preop session with a surgeon, a woman was in the room the whole time. It didn't bother me at all but I thought people have to think of all contingencies nowadays.

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1 minute ago, Patty Joanna said:

 

Not meaning to be argumentative...just noting that in the past 15 years or so, when I have had the Girl Checks done, or anything requiring removal of me undies, the (male) doctor has called in a (female) nurse.  I know he's not afraid of me, and I am not afraid of him.  It's just the rules by which he protects his practice; it's required protocol for all doctors, and in all combinations of sexes.  

 

The term "me undies" did not prepare me for location: Greater Seattle. Hee hee.

 

I am all for 2-deep accountability with kids, just to be clear.  And I'm not saying ministers who do this are bad / wrong .Just talking about my personal comfort .

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1 minute ago, Patty Joanna said:

 

Not meaning to be argumentative...just noting that in the past 15 years or so, when I have had the Girl Checks done, or anything requiring removal of me undies, the (male) doctor has called in a (female) nurse.  I know he's not afraid of me, and I am not afraid of him.  It's just the rules by which he protects his practice; it's required protocol for all doctors, and in all combinations of sexes.  

But did he call in a female nurse to talk when you were fully clothed? 

That is more what Poppy meant I think.

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4 hours ago, Patty Joanna said:

Re: confession. At our parish and every other ix parish I have been in, the confession is made before the Icon of Christ in the sanctuary / nave, quietly.   Others are or can be in the room but no one is close enough to hear words.  If it is a louder confession than usual, anyone awaiting their turn starts chanting the Psalms at a low volume. It works fine for all ages and sexes. 

Re: private meetings:   I’m pretty sure that our priest leaves the door to his office open or meets with people in a far corner of the sanctuary— visible but not audible.  

In our situation, I worry more about the priest’s personal safety due to intruders and do on.  We don’t have any secretaries or other full-time personnel and he’s a little isolated.  

This brought up a memory for me. Last year at Triduum after one of the services a woman came up in tears looking for the Bishop. He had just come out of the sacristy. The woman wanted to make her Confession right there in the courtyard. 

My diocese’s Bishop had me stand a few yards in front of them facing away from them; he faced one way; she stood by his side facing the other way; and she made her Confession. 

I quietly hummed one of the songs we had sung during the Mass. she seemed much relieved afterwards.

 

 

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Patty Joanna said:

 

Not meaning to be argumentative...just noting that in the past 15 years or so, when I have had the Girl Checks done, or anything requiring removal of me undies, the (male) doctor has called in a (female) nurse.  I know he's not afraid of me, and I am not afraid of him.  It's just the rules by which he protects his practice; it's required protocol for all doctors, and in all combinations of sexes.  

And if I strip down to my undies or less at my Priest's office I suppose I want a female in there with me. But not anticipating that :)

 

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6 hours ago, Liz CA said:

 

This should definitely be the case. I am also thinking of how to approach this so pastors can avoid the appearance of impropriety or protect themselves from false accusations.


To be clear, I think having a clear procedure that everyone is aware of actually is another way to protect the minister's liability. Like, due process and open processes help protect the people at the top who are blameless as well as the people who may be victimized. So, one way that a pastor could avoid the appearance of impropriety would be to have a clear policy, an outside board that he or she is accountable to on these matters, a method of investigating claims, etc. that is published and available to all church members and brought up and discussed appropriately.

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Churches I have attended (protestant) have either done counseling in a somewhat public place or have a second person with the pastor.  (Another pastor, elder, or a woman.) The women who are seeking the counseling understand that the pastor is not going to meet with them alone and most have seemed glad to have another person around (or have pretended to?).  I have sat in on many counseling sessions, sometimes speaking up, sometimes not; often holding the woman's hand, handing her kleenex, etc. 

ETA: And there is definitely a church government structure so that if a person felt a pastor was acting inappropriately, there are people that individual could contact for help/discipline/etc.   

 

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45 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

And if I strip down to my undies or less at my Priest's office I suppose I want a female in there with me. But not anticipating that :)

 

Lawd, Katie! What goes on in your neck of the woods? - This is very emojis would come really in handy! - 

I think we brought up physicians because they are in a similar position as priests of being alone with both male and female patients.

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My dad is a pastor (or was before retirement). When I was a teen, occasionally he would ask me to do my homework at his secretary's desk in the evening if he had an appointment with a woman who couldn't come in during normal hours- when there would be a couple secretaries and a youth pastor also in the building. This was about 20 years ago. It was not very common, but a few times. So I know he took precautions so he could not be accused of any misconduct.

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Personally, I think that counselling should be done with the minister and his wife. If for some reason he is single then another suitable couple should be found. I think that's why a deacon's wife "must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things." My church functions fairly differently then most standard churches though.

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3 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

If  a psychologist doesn't need a third party in the room I don't think clergy do. 

 

When I see clients (as an AoD counselor), I do so in a room with a window where people who pass by can see me but cannot see the person in the corner unless they come very close and crane their neck at an unnatural angle. There is a sound machine outside the door to prevent people overhearing any conversation. However, it is possible someone could accuse me of improper conduct since people are not looking in at every moment even though many pass by and glance in. There are no clients under 18 years of age.

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When I was about 23 years old, I went to a church and was in the young adult group.  One of the other girls in the young adult group went to the pastor for counseling and even went to the pastor's house for dinner and interacted with his wife, etc....and he had grown children older than she was.

It came to light later that they had been having an affair for a couple of years.  He was immediately let go.

She shared later that it was the "behind closed doors" thing.

So, I do think a window is appropriate, I also think if a church is large enough to have a counseling staff or male and female clergy, it is best.

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8 hours ago, rose said:

Personally, I think that counselling should be done with the minister and his wife. If for some reason he is single then another suitable couple should be found. I think that's why a deacon's wife "must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things." My church functions fairly differently then most standard churches though.

Is a minister's wife automatically qualified to counsel?

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It's not standard practice here for a doctor to have someone else in the room for an exam where the patient is naked.  I've heard of it, but it's unusual enough to be notable.

I'd really like to see some evidence that a window makes some real difference.  Otherwise it's just making people feel like they are taking steps.

I would expect to see any other sort of professional dealing with private issues in private.  I don't see why a priest would be different.  I am sure as heck not talking to his wife.

 

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12 hours ago, brehon said:

This brought up a memory for me. Last year at Triduum after one of the services a woman came up in tears looking for the Bishop. He had just come out of the sacristy. The woman wanted to make her Confession right there in the courtyard. 

My diocese’s Bishop had me stand a few yards in front of them facing away from them; he faced one way; she stood by his side facing the other way; and she made her Confession. 

I quietly hummed one of the songs we had sung during the Mass. she seemed much relieved afterwards.

 

That was so lovely of the Bishop to hear her Confession on the spot like that. I know priests are supposed to do so when asked, but I've had em... not live up to that sometimes. Particularly the busy ones. I'd think doubly so for bishops!

I think there's wisdom in the "window" approach although there's obviously cases in which a person doesn't want their face to be seen. Maybe a good balance could be struck by a person calling in advance to request anonymity? IDK. It's difficult. Pastors have to protect themselves as well, and churches should want to protect the flock from the potential of evil pastors!

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19 hours ago, TechWife said:

 

An office with a glass window isn't private.

 

And that’s okay because the confessional is the only place that *might* need secluded privacy. 

As my priest says, he is not a licensed therapist or psychologist or counselor and doesn’t play at it either.

He would never meet someone, either gender, in secluded privacy. He doesn’t have anyone visit his home alone and he doesn’t meet people in their home alone. And his schedule isn’t a private thing either. He meets with many people for many reasons so just meeting with the priest isn’t some huge notable event. 

If you need counseling, he will tell you to seek a licensed provider and our parish even recently started to provide one for our parish. He will advise you on basic things like spiritual advice, possible options to seek more advice elsewhere, and commiserate with you. But beyond that is not in his wheel house and he admits it. 

As for psychologist/therapists while they might not have windowed rooms or a third party there, they also often have recordings and or notes taken during the event. It’s usually not a come in and leave with no record of the event.

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2 hours ago, kiwik said:

Is a minister's wife automatically qualified to counsel?

Imo, (and I'm really not pushing it here) I believe in a plurality of elders, not one minister, and then I believe that when the church appoints them, the character of their wives needs to considered as much as their character.

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1 hour ago, Murphy101 said:

 

And that’s okay because the confessional is the only place that *might* need secluded privacy. 

As my priest says, he is not a licensed therapist or psychologist or counselor and doesn’t play at it either.

 

If you need counseling, he will tell you to seek a licensed provider and our parish even recently started to provide one for our parish. He will advise you on basic things like spiritual advice, possible options to seek more advice elsewhere, and commiserate with you. But beyond that is not in his wheel house and he admits it. 

As for psychologist/therapists while they might not have windowed rooms or a third party there, they also often have recordings and or notes taken during the event. It’s usually not a come in and leave with no record of the event.

I"m thinking more for spiritual counsel, not psychiatric type, as to why you might meet with a priest alone. But there would still be other people in the building...church secretary, volunteers, a few of the Knights of Columbus that always seem to be roaming around, etc. 

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2 hours ago, kiwik said:

Is a minister's wife automatically qualified to counsel?

 

Most ministers aren’t qualified for that matter. They have little training in psychology or therapy and most aren’t licensed. This tends to be true across most beliefs. Some may have life experience that makes them helpful in that regard, but many don’t even have that. And given the high divorce rate of ministers, I wouldn’t necessarily seek them for couples counseling either.  Well I would but it would not look like actual therapy and I wouldn’t expect it to. 

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3 hours ago, kiwik said:

Is a minister's wife automatically qualified to counsel?

Ministers aren't always either, but it depends on what kind of counseling is needed.  Often, there is an initial meeting with the pastor/elder and at that point a determination can be made if the issue is one that the church can handle, if there should be a referral to a licensed counselor/psychologist, or if there should be a combination of both. There are people who receive pastoral counseling/help from the church while also seeing a psychologist for the same issue.  For ex, an abused wife seeking help separating from her husband might be getting pastoral counseling and practical help from the church while also seeing a licensed counselor.  

So a pastor's wife may not be qualified to engage in psychological counseling but may be perfectly qualified to sit in on a session, give emotional and/or practical support where needed, and keep confidentiality. Actually, I would expect the wife of any pastor or elder to be trustworthy in that way. 

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1 hour ago, Murphy101 said:

 

Most ministers aren’t qualified for that matter. They have little training in psychology or therapy and most aren’t licensed. This tends to be true across most beliefs. Some may have life experience that makes them helpful in that regard, but many don’t even have that. And given the high divorce rate of ministers, I wouldn’t necessarily seek them for couples counseling either.  Well I would but it would not look like actual therapy and I wouldn’t expect it to. 

 

This really depends on the denomination.  It is fairly common for mainline denominations that have a lot of oversight and require a graduate degree to have dual graduate degrees in theology AND counseling or marriage & family therapy. There might be plenty of criticism for the problems in mainline churches, but they have their advantages too.

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2 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

I"m thinking more for spiritual counsel, not psychiatric type, as to why you might meet with a priest alone. But there would still be other people in the building...church secretary, volunteers, a few of the Knights of Columbus that always seem to be roaming around, etc. 

 

Spiritual counsel is not necessarily separate from other counseling. There’s limits but there’s also a crap ton of overlap.

In many cases of abuse it happened with other people not far away and oblivious.  Usually because it’s like drowning. People have a tv image of drowning and abuse as being this loud dramatic obvious event. But most of the time it happens quietly, even silently, within feet of help that has no idea what’s going on.

The point of the window is to make it clear it is not private. That someone could see what’s going on at any minute. They can say anything they want and that’s confidential. But there’s zero reason for anyone to need to be secluded with someone else at church.

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1 minute ago, Murphy101 said:

 

Spiritual counsel is not necessarily separate from other counseling. There’s limits but there’s also a crap ton of overlap.

In many cases of abuse it happened with other people not far away and oblivious.  Usually because it’s like drowning. People have a tv image of drowning and abuse as being this loud dramatic obvious event. But most of the time it happens quietly, even silently, within feet of help that has no idea what’s going on.

The point of the window is to make it clear it is not private. That someone could see what’s going on at any minute. They can say anything they want and that’s confidential. But there’s zero reason for anyone to need to be secluded with someone else at church.

Oh, wait, I think we agree. I have no problem with a window of some sort! It's probably a good idea. 

The exception being confession, but it would have to be some pretty quick abuse because there is a long line of people impatiently waiting, lol. 

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8 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Oh, wait, I think we agree. I have no problem with a window of some sort! It's probably a good idea. 

The exception being confession, but it would have to be some pretty quick abuse because there is a long line of people impatiently waiting, lol. 

 

Oh I think we agree. My statement wasn’t just towards you but the general comments about windows.

Sadly abuse can take only a few minutes. My parish is installing the old fashioned confessionals again. So there’s zero opportunity for any physical contact. There’s literally a wall of sorts between them. They can pull the screen to see the priest if they want but still won’t be able to have contact. And also, there’s not always a long line.  On a Thursday morning at 6:30am? No line at all.  

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My big problem with the window idea is that it doesn't take into consideration that abuse isn't just a physical thing, iykwim. Much manipulation of vulnerable souls can happen behind a closed door with a window, like sly, seductive speech that can lead to other things down the road. This would be an especially great concern for me in the situation of a woman who is struggling with her husband. If the pastor becomes her confidant then the situation is ripe for temptation, from both sides. My vote is for a third party.

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8 minutes ago, rose said:

My big problem with the window idea is that it doesn't take into consideration that abuse isn't just a physical thing, iykwim. Much manipulation of vulnerable souls can happen behind a closed door with a window, like sly, seductive speech that can lead to other things down the road. This would be an especially great concern for me in the situation of a woman who is struggling with her husband. If the pastor becomes her confidant then the situation is ripe for temptation, from both sides. My vote is for a third party.

Do you feel this way about psychologist or therapist visits?

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