Right or wrong? Calling out co-workers on language choices?

[regentrude]

32 minutes ago, poppy said:

My kids usually refer to adults by first name, and when they do it -- just to be clear-- it is with respect, and good manners.  What you are doing is engaging in the norm of your subculture or belief system.  So are we.

I second this. In my homeschool circle, all kids address adults by their first names. It is an expression of the attitudes towards child-adult interaction; adults are not considered to have "authority" over children (and most definitely not over children not their own.)

If I can call somebody by their first name and be respectful, so can a child.

[SKL]

Traditions about what kids call adults are weird.  In my family, even when I was a kid, there were some adults called "Mrs. Lastname," some "Miss Firstname," and some "Firstname."  If there was any pattern, it was that those we knew from infancy were more likely to go by firstname.

I tried to teach my kids to say "Aunt/Uncle Firstname" with familiar adults who were not related, but it didn't stick, and the adults involved did not care.  My kids do call their friends' moms "Mrs. ____."  And I still call my childhood friends' moms "Mrs. ___."  :P

[Murphy101]

29 minutes ago, bolt. said:

I suppose an adult in that situation could return the gesture of respect by calling kids ‘mr/miss firstname’ too. That might be a fun solution.

 

This is not unusual around here and in the south. Growing up I had many teachers who also called their students by their last names. Some of my kids do too. 

[Murphy101]

29 minutes ago, poppy said:

 

 If someone calls you a nasty name, I have zero doubt you could address it yourself, so..... it's OK if he does it?  There's no point in decorum at all?
I DO think that's how it works in some of the rougher places out there. But it's  not true in an office environment.

I don't think it's true at all that everyone you interview is below you in the hierarchy.  And if they are, you should still use respectful language when addressing them.  Honestly, I'm going to guess that this guy's problem wasn't intentional disrespect, it was just ignorance.   If I was unintentionally rude, I would want to be told.

 

What the hecken? “Girl” is not a nasty name and even by your own description of the context, he was not using it in a derogatory manner, so how could it have possibly been rude of him?

If he had come in and said, “that b—- I interviewed”, I’d be offended and I’d tell him so even if I agreed that the person was being b——y.

Other than calling a female a girl, did he do something to insinuate he belittled her or does he have a habit of demeaning women in general? Because if not, your reaction to this non-event seems really out of proportion to me. 

[SKL]

Don't lose sight of how offensive and threatening it is to be accused of being a misogynist just because you used a relatively neutral word in a benign conversation.

[poppy]

3 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

A kid calling me my first name is not respectful, to be clear.  That’s a heck no, no ma’am, do not pass go or collect $200.  That’s pretty much anathema to basic manners in addressing non relative adults in a society, and I’m from a very casual social climate (SoCal).

 

You've just called my kids and every child in my social circle lacking in basic manners.... which leads me to believe you understand what basic manners are, to be completely honest.  If you think any "society" not like your is barbaric and wrong.

[poppy]

3 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

 

What the hecken? “Girl” is not a nasty name and even by your own description of the context, he was not using it in a derogatory manner, so how could it have possibly been rude of him?

If he had come in and said, “that b—- I interviewed”, I’d be offended and I’d tell him so even if I agreed that the person was being b——y.

Other than calling a female a girl, did he do something to insinuate he belittled her or does he have a habit of demeaning women in general? Because if not, your reaction to this non-event seems really out of proportion to me. 

Of course it seems out of proportion to you. You're said you are can't think of  any context where it might bother anyone to be called a "girl," up to and include members of Congress addressing 60+ Supreme Court justices that way.

[poppy]

3 hours ago, SKL said:

Don't lose sight of how offensive and threatening it is to be accused of being a misogynist just because you used a relatively neutral word in a benign conversation.

 

So re-reading the OP, it appears what happened was:
- a man sent a note out to the managers calling a potential adult colleague a "girl"
- OP sent him a note : "I may used the terms "misogynistic undertones" and "implicit devaluation."  
- he replied that this seems important to her

Not seeing the insensitive guy as some terrible victim here.  She didn't call him out to anyone else.   No threat. It seems like the OP is at  much at risk as being labelled oversensitive as anything.

[Frances]

3 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

A kid calling me my first name is not respectful, to be clear.  That’s a heck no, no ma’am, do not pass go or collect $200.  That’s pretty much anathema to basic manners in addressing non relative adults in a society, and I’m from a very casual social climate (SoCal).

I’m not sure this is universally true. I grew up in a rural, conservative, tradional area of the Midwest where respects for elders was greatly stressed and expected. But we called adults, including our friends’ parents and elderly neighbors and church members, by their first names. Teachers are the only exceptions I can recall, except for those that had a title like Dr., Father, Sister, etc. I haven’t lived in the South where I understand it is common for children not to use adults’ first names, but having lived on both coasts and in the Midwest, I’ve only personally encountered this practice among conservative Christians.

[SKL]

2 minutes ago, poppy said:

 

So re-reading the OP, it appears what happened was:
- a man sent a note out to the managers calling a potential adult colleague a "girl"
- OP sent him a note : "I may used the terms "misogynistic undertones" and re"implicit devaluation."  
- he replied that this seems important to her

Not seeing the insensitive guy as some terrible victim here.  She didn't call him out to anyone else.   No threat. It seems like the OP is at  much at risk as being labelled oversensitive as anything.

And he's probably thinking she's filing his email away for a potential future gender discrimination suit. 

I love the way the Hive generally doesn't care what might concern males - I guess "male privilege" outweighs everything else.

So I have a related question:  what is the female vs male version of the word "misogynist" and why don't we all know it?

[Bluegoat]

5 hours ago, bolt. said:

I get that you aren’t ok with it... but what do you do when you encounter real people who actually view your children as their peers in dignity and respect?

It seems odd to teach children that the best way to show someone that you respect them is to disregard their wishes. Do you talk adult-to-adult (without the kids hearing you) as you respectfully insist that the other person yeild to your preference? Do most people just let you have your way since you are the mom?

 

I seems odd to me to connect the word "peers" with "people equal in dignity and respect."  I think all people are equal in dignity and respect, but they aren't all my peers.  

[Rosie_0801]

9 minutes ago, SKL said:

So I have a related question:  what is the female vs male version of the word "misogynist" and why don't we all know it?

 

Man hating bitch, obviously. Sometimes dyke.

So, I propose that we all know it, we just take it for granted to the point where it doesn't need a high register lexical item.

[poppy]

2 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I think for me it comes down to the idea that by sending such an email that includes things like “misogynistic overtones,” it has the potential to turn what  was thought to be a random reference, into a potential HR incident.  Using the language the OP describes makes the situation much bigger than “oversensitivity.”

 

He thought it was "random", and she thought it was offensive.   He gets to be offended and she doesn't? It's not a random word, at all. It's a word that means "female child".
He apparently didn't know about the implicit devaluation of the term, and she informed him...... that seems like a reasonable adult interaction, moreso than "offensive and threatening".   If she had publicly called him out, or sent that note to his manager instead of addressing him directly , it would be different.

[poppy]

11 minutes ago, SKL said:

And he's probably thinking she's filing his email away for a potential future gender discrimination suit. 

I love the way the Hive generally doesn't care what might concern males - I guess "male privilege" outweighs everything else.

So I have a related question:  what is the female vs male version of the word "misogynist" and why don't we all know it?

 

Misandry.

[SKL]

So all those Ryan Gosling memes that members used to post were practically criminal.  And yet .... 

[SKL]

5 minutes ago, poppy said:

 

He thought it was "random", and she thought it was offensive.   He gets to be offended and she doesn't? It's not a random word, at all. It's a word that means "female child".
He apparently didn't know about the implicit devaluation of the term, and she informed him...... that seems like a reasonable adult interaction, moreso than "offensive and threatening".   If she had publicly called him out, or sent that note to his manager instead of addressing him directly , it would be different.

Putting that kind of terminology in a work email is serious, regardless of who is copied.  I would never do it unless I was building a case.

[Rosie_0801]

3 minutes ago, poppy said:

 

Misandry.

 

And yet they don't really seem like antonyms when I look below the surface.

[LMD]

1 hour ago, StellaM said:

 

It's totally down to your perspective. Also from a very casual social climate, and kids calling adults by their first name is...utterly unremarkable and not even close to a violation of basic manners.

 

 

We had this debate in our homeschool group a few years ago lol. We ended up with Miss First name (for the most part).

[LMD]

5 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

And yet they don't really seem like antonyms when I look below the surface.

 

One has historical and institutionalised power and protections to use...

Eta- cross posted Stella! Great minds ;)

[Rosie_0801]

6 minutes ago, LMD said:

 

One has historical and institutionalised power and protections to use...

Eta- cross posted Stella! Great minds ;)

 

Yeah. "They" say men are afraid women will mock them and women are afraid men will destroy them. Then, when women are in situations where men being mocked is considered a more serious social issue than where men are trying to destroy women, people's blood pressure goes up.

[LMD]

13 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

Man hating bitch, obviously. Sometimes dyke.

So, I propose that we all know it, we just take it for granted to the point where it doesn't need a high register lexical item.

Now, the real question is what are the masculine equivalents? What is a male version of:

B*tch, hysterical, sl*t, wh*re, frigid, feminazi... 

 

1 minute ago, StellaM said:

 

Oh wow, really ? Even in our (Christian) homeschool arts co-op, first names are fine.

Yeah it was a little weird. We had some older and quite strict traditional homeschool families, but many of the newer/younger families were more casual. Some of the former group still call me Mrs Last name. I have come to the conclusion that homeschool groups are just weird! :D  

[Murphy101]

28 minutes ago, poppy said:

Of course it seems out of proportion to you. You're said you are can't think of  any context where it might bother anyone to be called a "girl," up to and include members of Congress addressing 60+ Supreme Court justices that way.

 

You have a habit of saying someone said something they didn’t. I never said I didn’t think Sotomeyer would be okay with being called girl by a congressman. What I said, was I think she’d tell him if she had a problem with it. If he said it in a derogatory manner then I might have issue with it too. But girl is not a nasty word. It just isn’t. So I’m not going to get my undies in a bunch on behalf of some gal who I’m sure can speak her own mind if it bothers her to be called a girl.

[Bluegoat]

3 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

As is indicated by this thread, use of the word girl is is not universally considered to be a seriously offensive word choice. However, using words like misogynistic overtones makes things real serious, real fast. 

 

Girl can be interpreted a lot of ways.  Calling someone a misogynist...not so much. So his belief that the reference was not offensive is more realistic than the idea that misogyny isn’t offensive.  

 

Yeah, an email at work about something like that would be scary -it's the language of I'm going to be considering a harassment complaint.

The "girl" thing is barely a blip, probably half the women employees would say the same. 

[SKL]

Women are afraid men will destroy them?  Wow.  That is news to me.

[Rosie_0801]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

Women are afraid men will destroy them?  Wow.  That is news to me.

 

Obviously not all women. 

[poppy]

11 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

As is indicated by this thread, use of the word girl is is not universally considered to be a seriously offensive word choice. However, using words like misogynistic overtones makes things real serious, real fast. 

 

Girl can be interpreted a lot of ways.  Calling someone a misogynist...not so much. So his belief that the reference was not offensive is more realistic than the idea that misogyny isn’t offensive.  

 

I think what's happening is people who don't mind the word "girl" think most "girls" don't mind.   But I work in corporate HR. It is not appropriate in a  corporate office environment. It just isn't.    Or-- if there are pockets of the US where it is, please believe me where there are just as many where it truly isn't.  

I can also tell you one person using the word "girl" once, and then responding appropriately when asked to stop,  is not a professional threat.   Talk about blowing things out of proportion.

[poppy]

12 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

You have a habit of saying someone said something they didn’t. I never said I didn’t think Sotomeyer would be okay with being called girl by a congressman. What I said, was I think she’d tell him if she had a problem with it. If he said it in a derogatory manner then I might have issue with it too. But girl is not a nasty word. It just isn’t. So I’m not going to get my undies in a bunch on behalf of some gal who I’m sure can speak her own mind if it bothers her to be called a girl.

 

So here's the thing.  This is all a Catch-22. Hear me out.   I didn't' ask you if she'd be OK with being called a girl. I asked you if you thought it would be OK for a government official (not some random citizen, but like a Senator) to call Justice Sotomayer a girl.  And you said, twice now, that  it's not a problem, because it'd be up to her to object "if she had a problem with it"

  But here we have someone who doesn't like it , who is raising an objection----  and she's getting slammed and called threatening and offensive.    So  it's not a problem to use the term, women can speak for themselves.  But if they do speak up, they get called man-haters.

 

 

[Murphy101]

3 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Yeah, an email at work about something like that would be scary -it's the language of I'm going to be considering a harassment complaint.

The "girl" thing is barely a blip, probably half the women employees would say the same. 

 

My husband handles this stuff every day for a living. I posed the scenario to him exactly as described in this thread. Firstly, he says in a training situation, he would joke and correct the use of girl in a subordinate and possibly in a superior if that’s what he was hired to do  

He said he would only respond directly to a man that’s an equal level peer he was friends with. He would joke with him about hiring high schoolers. 

He said he would not write such a response as indicated unless this was a problem coworker in addition to this incident.

He said if he got this email he would immediately approach HR with how to respond and to request a witness to that response and to document his version of events. Because it would absolutely send him into CYA mode. And would avoid you like the plague outside of absolutely required work duties for fear of some slight offense causing further problems.

He then proceeded to tell me many stories of similiar work conflicts and how they were handled.  Which I’ve already forgotten. Except for the Ben’s Favorite Midget issue. That was both weird and funny.

[poppy]

1 minute ago, happysmileylady said:

Except a whole lot of people in this thread, from a large variety of places disagree with your first paragraph.  And since people who aren’t bothered by it wouldn’t go to corporate HR over it’s use, your experience my be skewed a smidge. 

The “blowing out of proportion” isn’t about simply being asked to stop.  The “blowing out of proportion” is using ultra strong words like “misogynistic” in reference so words that, again, as clearly indicated by the numerous responses in this thread from all over, just simply aren’t so strongly or universally considered offensive, to make that request. 

Its like using a sledgehammer to crack your crab legs.  I GOTTA get to the crab legs, but there is a better tool available. 

(And yeah, I might be watching food network right now.)  

 

I'm certain many of the people in this thread do not work in a formal corporate environment.  I wouldn't begin to say what's proper etiquette working at a farm, or in the armed forces, or .... I don't know, name a bunch of other places with distinct codes of behavior. 

[Murphy101]

5 minutes ago, poppy said:

 

So here's the thing.  This is all a Catch-22. Hear me out.   I didn't' ask you if she'd be OK with being called a girl. I asked you if you thought it would be OK for a government official (not some random citizen, but like a Senator) to call Justice Sotomayer a girl.  And you said, twice now, that  it's not a problem, because it'd be up to her to object "if she had a problem with it"

  But here we have someone who doesn't like it , who is raising an objection----  and she's getting slammed and called threatening and offensive.    So  it's not a problem to use the term, women can speak for themselves.  But if they do speak up, they get called man-haters.

 

 

 

But that is not true at all. 

I have no issue with you telling someone to not call you a girl. Or anything else you’d rather not be called at work. 

I have an issue with you taking insult on behalf of someone else, who you have no claim upon and no right to presume would even agree with you. 

I don’t much care of a senator calls a judge a girl depending on the context. If he is a rude butt nugget then I’m probably going to have a problem with that regardless of using less offensive to you polite wording. 

[poppy]

1 minute ago, happysmileylady said:

The objection isn’t this issue. 

It’s the size of the reaction.  Many have already said, address it differently.  I don’t think I have seen a post that says don’t address it at all. 

 

What is the proper way to address it?  

Murphy101 above says her husband would handle it verbally with a joke.  I get that,  it's also what my husband would do.  But, I'm not sure it would work, since many on this thread say it's not a big deal, most women wouldn't really mind, etc.   It's just as likely the guy would laugh but not change.
 

[Joker]

3 minutes ago, poppy said:

 

What is the proper way to address it?  

Murphy101 above says her husband would handle it verbally with a joke.  I get that,  it's also what my husband would do.  But, I'm not sure it would work, since many on this thread say it's not a big deal, most women wouldn't really mind, etc.   It's just as likely the guy would laugh but not change.
 

They should go to HR and let them address the employee, and in anyone in corporate HR would (or at least should) know better than to address it with the employee using the language the OP did. 

[poppy]

2 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

But that is not true at all. 

I have no issue with you telling someone to not call you a girl. Or anything else you’d rather not be called at work. 

I have an issue with you taking insult on behalf of someone else, who you have no claim upon and no right to presume would even agree with you. 

I don’t much care of a senator calls a judge a girl depending on the context. If he is a rude butt nugget then I’m probably going to have a problem with that regardless of using less offensive to you polite wording. 

 

Here's a question then.  If a guy called a woman a "girl"  in one context, he probably would call me a "girl" in another context, because he thinks it's a normal way to talk about women.  Do I have to wait for him to call me a "girl" before I speak up?

[poppy]

1 minute ago, Joker said:

They should go to HR and let them address the employee, and in anyone in corporate HR would (or at least should) know better than to address it with the employee using the language the OP did. 

 

I can understand that thinking, but it's kind of escalating things, don't you think?
If my neighbor does something that bugs me-radio too loud at night , maybe-  I go to him and ask him to cut it out. And if he doesn't, I might call the police to help. I wouldn't go to the police as a first step.  In a gender/diversity/sensitivity context "HR" acts as the police.

[bolt.]

4 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

A kid calling me my first name is not respectful, to be clear.  That’s a heck no, no ma’am, do not pass go or collect $200.  That’s pretty much anathema to basic manners in addressing non relative adults in a society, and I’m from a very casual social climate (SoCal).

Well, I hope you never move to some other part of the world. In the “not society enough for Arctic Mama” parts of the world, you would be forced to believe that absolutely no children have any respect you at all! That would be very hard on you.

If you wanted to ever be respected by a child again, you would be forced to act as a missionary for civilization! You would need to teach entire provinces of children that, no matter how they actually regard the adults around them, real respect is based on word choice.

You could teach them the new words and how to use them, and then, suddenly real respect would appear in their hearts, lives, families and classrooms. How wonderful. Just think of the amazing change over a whole country from kids who are no longer doing things that are considered anathema to basic manners in SoCal!

But it would be quite a lot of work.

Maybe, instead of all that work, if you were forced to move you could just keep telling yourself that respect isn’t always expressed using the same wording in all parts of the world. Sounds simpler, I admit.

[Joker]

1 minute ago, poppy said:

 

I can understand that thinking, but it's kind of escalating things, don't you think?
If my neighbor does something that bugs me-radio too loud at night , maybe-  I go to him and ask him to cut it out. And if he doesn't, I might call the police to help. I wouldn't go to the police as a first step.  In a gender/diversity/sensitivity context "HR" acts as the police.

In dh's corporate workplace anything about gender/diversity/sensitivity goes through HR because of the potential to screw it up with language like in the OP.

Dh has had to go to HR with such things twice. It was a good thing too as the first time they told him the issue was a non issue but the second time resulted in a termination of the guy. They have HR employees completely dedicated to these issues and training so it's exactly what they are there for. 

[Rosie_0801]

6 minutes ago, poppy said:

 

Here's a question then.  If a guy called a woman a "girl"  in one context, he probably would call me a "girl" in another context, because he thinks it's a normal way to talk about women.  Do I have to wait for him to call me a "girl" before I speak up?

 

Well, unless you want to use "Please don't call me or refer to me as a girl" as a disclaimer before all social interactions, probably.

Calling a woman a girl in one context doesn't mean a bloke will call a woman a girl in some other context, just like women who don't mind being referred to as a girl in one context may well mind in another, or may mind when one man calls them that but not another. There's all sorts of nuance in this world.

[Murphy101]

4 minutes ago, poppy said:

 

What is the proper way to address it?  

Murphy101 above says her husband would handle it verbally with a joke.  I get that,  it's also what my husband would do.  But, I'm not sure it would work, since many on this thread say it's not a big deal, most women wouldn't really mind, etc.   It's just as likely the guy would laugh but not change.
 

 

As long as he is not calling you girl, then what do you care? Why does he have to change how he speaks to everyone, many of which would not even think to be offended? That’s the problem here. It’s not your job to demand he change. You have every reason to demand to not be called something you find offensive. Doesn't matter what it is. Your legal name could be Lucy and if you hate it, you can demand he call you Beyoncé instead. But you become unreasonable if you demand that everyone be just as offended by being called something that isn’t an offensive word.  

[Murphy101]

13 minutes ago, poppy said:

 

Here's a question then.  If a guy called a woman a "girl"  in one context, he probably would call me a "girl" in another context, because he thinks it's a normal way to talk about women.  Do I have to wait for him to call me a "girl" before I speak up?

 

Yes. Why would you go looking for personal insult before it’s been given? If it’s not a personal insult and possibly not an insult at all, why would you take it upon yourself to make it into one?

[Joker]

2 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

 A single use of 'girls' is not HR worthy. 

I don't think so either and said so in my first post on this thread. I was answering how it should be handled if someone feels they must address it.

[katilac]

On 4/22/2018 at 6:45 AM, Pegasus said:

In a recent e-mail to our director and a couple managers, a co-worker (same level as I am) referred to a woman with a PhD degree as "the girl I interviewed."  I debated whether and how to respond and finally sent a carefully worded email to my co-worker with no one copied.  I may have used the terms "misogynistic undertones" and "implicit devaluation."  The response was rather dismissive: "I can tell that this is important to you."

A while ago, I provided input to an upper level manager for a different co-worker's performance evaluation. I provided a well earned glowing review with specific achievements but I had specifically been asked to provide areas for improvement, so I suggested some gentle guidance be provided to the co-worker to avoid the use of a specific racially insensitive quip that this ex-Marine was fond of using.  I shared my input directly with the co-worker as well and I must admit that I haven't heard that quip from him since.

I'm a bit concerned that I may earn the rep as the "word police" or something but we work for an employer that prides itself on diversity and one of our missions is training and mentoring young people from underrepresented groups.

What says the hive?  Sit back and shut up or continue calling out poor word choices such as those above?

2

 

I have not read other replies; I'm going by the OP only. 

If someone sent me such a strongly worded email in those circumstances,  I would be pissed off beyond belief. And I'm someone who agrees with you about not wording it that way!

Why not a verbal heads-up, without such loaded words? If they were dismissive, you could repeat it more strongly, but there's no reason to go in with guns blazing. If you make people defensive, they're not really listening. "Hey, Katilac, just a heads-up, next time say XYZ instead of 'the girl I interviewed,' Acme really doesn't like that because . . . ."

Why verbal instead of email? One, every person in the world is going to assume you BCC'd the boss. Two, even if you didn't, everyone is going to assume that you did it via email for written documentation. Three, even if you didn't do either of those things, that email now exists on the company server even if you both delete. Thus, it can always be used as written documentation,  even if that's not your current intention. And the IT people and anyone with authority can read it. Work emails should never be regarded as private, or as "your" emails. They belong to the company and are easily accessed.

It's worth addressing, particularly if the company has stated values, but it can be addressed without using phrases like "misogynistic undertones" on the first go. There's a huge DMZ between that and shutting up. 

[Rosie_0801]

4 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Total aside...and please tell me I am a culturally insensitive  American if appropriate...are the words “bloke” and “shelia” used much in Australia?   Would a similar discussion apply?

 

I would say "bloke" is not used as much as it used to be, but "sheila" is probably archaic now. I can't imagine anyone getting their knickers in a twist about the use of either. "Sheila" may get an eyeroll because, seriously mate, you are showing your age. "Bloke" is a perfectly legitimate word.

Other Aussies mileage may vary, but probably not by much.

[SKL]

28 minutes ago, poppy said:

 

I'm certain many of the people in this thread do not work in a formal corporate environment.  I wouldn't begin to say what's proper etiquette working at a farm, or in the armed forces, or .... I don't know, name a bunch of other places with distinct codes of behavior. 

I worked for many years in a corporate office in a big accounting firm.  I managed people, wrote reviews, and was on the women's advancement committee.  I still work in professional environments when I'm not working at home.  I think I know what a corporate office is like.

I understand that an email with language like the OP is a lot more concerning than just being told some women don't like to be called "girls."

[poppy]

10 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

Well, unless you want to use "Please don't call me or refer to me as a girl" as a disclaimer before all social interactions, probably.

Calling a woman a girl in one context doesn't mean a bloke will call a woman a girl in some other context, just like women who don't mind being referred to as a girl in one context may well mind in another, or may mind when one man calls them that but not another. There's all sorts of nuance in this world.

 

Don't do it at work / professionally.    I don't know any adult men who do, it's not a typical / normal thing.   It's not that hard or complicated to remember.  

[SKL]

29 minutes ago, poppy said:

 

What is the proper way to address it?  

Murphy101 above says her husband would handle it verbally with a joke.  I get that,  it's also what my husband would do.  But, I'm not sure it would work, since many on this thread say it's not a big deal, most women wouldn't really mind, etc.   It's just as likely the guy would laugh but not change.
 

You give people the opportunity first.  Then if they don't do what you want, you decide if this is a big enough deal to make a stink.  Personally I'd let him find out the hard way if he couldn't learn from a polite suggestion.  If he is going to be an ass about it, sooner or later he is going to call someone "girl" to her face and be told off.  If he then continues to be an ass, things will get worse for him.

[Rosie_0801]

Just now, poppy said:

 

Don't do it at work / professionally.    I don't know any adult men who do, it's not a typical / normal thing.   It's not that hard or complicated to remember.  

 

No, it isn't hard or complicated to remember. But, as has already been stated, it is typical, normal and non-offensive in some work environments. That is not hard or complicated to remember either.

[poppy]

1 hour ago, LMD said:

 

We had this debate in our homeschool group a few years ago lol. We ended up with Miss First name (for the most part).

 

We tend to avoid Ms FirstName because the only people who are addressed like that are preschool teachers. 
Nothing wrong with preschool teachers, but it's odd in a coop where most kids are 8-12  years old.

[poppy]

Just now, Rosie_0801 said:

 

No, it isn't hard or complicated to remember. But, as has already been stated, it is typical, normal and non-offensive in some work environments. That is not hard or complicated to remember either.

 

Sounds like most people think it was appropriate to correct him but it should have been verbal not email.
I get that.

But I do think it's hard for women to confront directly. It's something I have a hard time working courage up to do, personally.  It's a skill I think we should teach more.

[SKL]

32 minutes ago, poppy said:

 

What is the proper way to address it?  

Murphy101 above says her husband would handle it verbally with a joke.  I get that,  it's also what my husband would do.  But, I'm not sure it would work, since many on this thread say it's not a big deal, most women wouldn't really mind, etc.   It's just as likely the guy would laugh but not change.
 

And would you please stop calling this person "guy."  We already established that's a misogynistic term since there is no female version of "guy."

[poppy]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

You give people the opportunity first.  Then if they don't do what you want, you decide if this is a big enough deal to make a stink.  Personally I'd let him find out the hard way if he couldn't learn from a polite suggestion.  If he is going to be an ass about it, sooner or later he is going to call someone "girl" to her face and be told off.  If he then continues to be an ass, things will get worse for him.

Is that not exactly what she did?  Asked him privately to cut it out, and gave him some reasons  why.