Right or wrong? Calling out co-workers on language choices?

[nixpix5]

1 minute ago, kbutton said:

I guess I am longing for maybe a kind of third culture around these things--ways we all move toward each other and toward something intended to be respectful, recognizing that we won't always get things totally right. 

I just hear a lot about intent not being enough to avoid dismissing someone (from people who are easily marginalized), and I have seen that in action too.

I totally get this. It sounds like something awesome to strive for and I dream of this too. 

[Bluegoat]

7 minutes ago, nixpix5 said:

Unfortunately even if we come to a cultural consensus now in a decade it will need to be tweaked again because words in and of themselves are innocent. We can control people's words but not their intent. Inocusious words become problematic words over time because people learn how to squeeze out of their innocence and use them to offend in some way. This will forever occur hence the need to continually upgrade speech. 

 

To me this is a big reason that we new ill-advised in many cases to put too much energy into the issue of words and speech.  Except in a few cases of words that are only meant to be offensive, words acquire the meaning that people bring to them, and they can also lose questionable meaning as well.  If we put a lot of energy into the language, it isn't being used to address the underlying issue, and it also tends to create an atmosphere where jargon and in-group language dominate.

[Greta]

4 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Well, it was't meant to be mean, I think it was actually policy or at least how people were trained - it was meant I think to avoid any politicized words..  So "All me to the left showers and females to the right".  It just always sounded to me like they were talking about lab subjects.

I am really fine with most things people say, if they aren't jerks.  I've known enough people who said "women" in a way that was sleazy to care too much about that.

 

I'm sure it isn't deliberately or consciously meant to be mean.  But it is.  If they were consistent about it (males and females) it would be one thing.  But in my experience, people aren't consistent about it at all (men and females).

Is the word woman considered "politicized"?  I'm not sure I understand that.

[Greta]

1 hour ago, happysmileylady said:

It feels formal.  In a casual setting, I would “that guy I interviewed” as opposed to “that man I interviewed.”  So as weird as it would feel to say “that man” that’s why it would feel weird to say “that woman.”  It has nothing to do with “woman” as a word...as much as it is about being casual.  

Kind of like “boss man” vs “my supervisor.”

 

Okay, I appreciate your explanation.  Personally, neither "the man I interviewed" nor "the woman I interviewed" sound formal to me, they both sound like perfectly normal phrases that one might expect to hear in the workplace.  But I guess I'm the odd one out!  :-)

ETA:  Hmm, in a work email, I would certainly use “my supervisor”and not “the boss man”.  And this was a work email that the OP was talking about. In a professional setting, isn’t it generally better to go too formal than it is to go too casual?

[Greta]

3 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

The word “females” bothers you, but you don’t understand the politicalization of the word “women”?  

 

No, I don't understand what is so politicized about the word woman that it should be avoided.  I truly don't get it.

[mytwomonkeys]

The military (to my knowledge) is very deliberate and intentional in using the word female cadet.  Im sure part of it is about stripping identity, as you’re in the military and conformity is really an important aspect of that.  A “woman” soldier just doesn’t sound as stripped down as a female soldier. At least that’s my guess as to why they do it. 

[goldberry]

4 hours ago, SparklyUnicorn said:

To further complicate the situation though, women don't even agree on this. I've had women call me nuts for being annoyed with being called a girl.

 

This is the reason I wouldn't have said anything.  Calling women "girls" is not something that bothers most or means the same to everyone.  It would fall in the grey area for me and therefore not something I would complain about or mention.  If someone did mention it in a serious way rather than a joking-but-not-really-joking way, I would think that was over the top.

It's just not at that level yet where it deserves unanimous societal condemnation.

[goldberry]

1 hour ago, Greta said:

 

Okay, see, I find "girl" annoying in certain contexts, but I find this kind of use of the word "females" absolutely ENRAGING, and I am sorry you were subjected to it.  At least if I'm being called a "girl" my humanity is being acknowledged.  But "female" could mean a dog, a cow, an ostrich, or a naked mole rat.  I am a WOMAN.  I really don't understand why so many people are hesitant to use the word woman!  I think it's a clear sign of a misogynistic culture when the standard word for an adult female human being is avoided, like it's icky or tainted or something.  

 I confess that what you are saying here would never even occur to me.  I think it sounds awkward and would prefer woman. But it wouldn't even blip on my radar that anyone would be offended.

[poppy]

1 hour ago, happysmileylady said:

Every persons individual tipping point is different.  Some folks have mentioned “chick” bothers them.  Not only does it not bother me, I use it. “This chick was behind me at the grocery store and asked me about the corn I bought.”  

 

My point was, no, we don't all have our own tipping point. Words DO become universally considered rude.  See: Retard.  Or: Colored.   Or: Lame, to describe a person who is disabled.

I think girl is on the edge.   Some people mind it, others do not.  So best to avoid in mixed company (mixed meaning, not all close friends of the same mindset).
Similar: Illegals. It's not a term I'd ever use to describe a human being, but I know it's common in some area. 
Similar: Tranny.

Then there are words that USED to be offensive, but have been reclaimed so far that the insult has no weight and it is used  positively most of the time. Queer.  Dyke. Geek.

 

[Greta]

45 minutes ago, mytwomonkeys said:

The military (to my knowledge) is very deliberate and intentional in using the word female cadet.  Im sure part of it is about stripping identity, as you’re in the military and conformity is really an important aspect of that.  A “woman” soldier just doesn’t sound as stripped down as a female soldier. At least that’s my guess as to why they do it. 

 

Oh, thank for for posting this, because I may have completely misunderstood Bluegoat!  Female as an adjective (female soldier, female singer, female athlete) is perfectly appropriate and doesn’t bother me in the slightest. Female as a noun in a contex where the person would not use male, THAT is what bugs me.  “The guys are in the den watching the game and the females are out back on the patio.” The NFL marketer who made a statement about “the role of the female in the household”.  That crap drives me up the wall.

[SKL]

Speaking of "female," when I was in grad school with (female) friends from India, some of them would refer to random women as "that female."  Now that struck me as odd - if my US acquaintances had ever said such a thing, it would have definitely been meant in a derogatory way.  It was another thing that took some time to get used to ... and I probably advised them against using it in mixed gatherings.

[Greta]

21 minutes ago, goldberry said:

 I confess that what you are saying here would never even occur to me.  I think it sounds awkward and would prefer woman. But it wouldn't even blip on my radar that anyone would be offended.

 

Well, it’s certainly not the worst thing that women routinely get called!  :-)  (But yeah, I really hate it.  I’d much, much rather be called a girl than a female.)

[Rosie_0801]

Maybe calling adult males 'guys' can be slightly derogatory. There are definitely times when I'd use 'guys' instead of 'men' because I think they've got rather more growing up to do!

I've had fun lately listening to older tradies deciding what to call women on their work site. One calls them girls, the other either girls or ladies and even asked whether they were okay being referred to as guys in the collective. That surprised them, because it's a perfectly standard use of language here.

[LMD]

7 hours ago, Noreen Claire said:

 

I think that you have handled these situations exactly the way they should have been handled. If language of this type persists, and it needs to be called out, you could refer the offender to the company's mission of diversity and mentoring of underrepresented groups and how that type of language undermines both.

It's sad that many comments recommend you bringing these things up in a cute, nonthreatening, 'joke-ey' manner. That just reinforces the misogyny in the workplace. Men wouldn't buffer their criticisms this way, why should the OP?

 

Yep, that's the patriarchy double bind. You won't ever be the perfect amount of professional/nice to get them to actually listen.

[LMD]

2 hours ago, poppy said:

 

Once again you can see the only time men use "boys" is in the "boys night out" sort of context or I guess "boys trip".  Never, ever professionally.

 

Yep! I cannot picture a woman boss using that language with her team of mostly men. Come on boys, need those files! Can one of you boys bring some coffee to the conference room? Which one of you boys  can run this report up to finance?

[gardenmom5]

3 hours ago, SKL said:

And where I am, I never hear "gals" used that way.  Moreover, I view "gals" as being another version of "girls."  So if "girl" doesn't work, then "gal" doesn't work either.

I always hear gals as girls with a country twang.

3 hours ago, nixpix5 said:

Having grown up in a predominately migrant area where my highschool was over 60% Hispanic and my son is half, all of my friends much preferred the use of Mexican much more than Hispanic. It wasn't at all touchy to say Mexican dominoes or Mexican food and so forth. It just wasn't an issue. It does make me wonder when it became touchy. My son (again who is Mexican) made a comment to his white GF that was similar to yours and your husband's conversation and she called him out on it. They had a huge debate with regard to it but she is doing sensitivity training at her place of employment at the moment. 

 

 - except not all hispanic migrants are mexicans (and not all hispanics are even immigrants).   My ex-sil is latina - she had many experiences in the miami area that royally pissed her off.  not from the whites - from the cubans assuming her to be cuban, and boy did they change their tune (downward) when they found out she was from south america.

she also has lived in areas with large mexican migrant populations - she didn't appreciate people assuming she's mexican.   she's actually preferred living in predominantly white areas rather than predominantly one country of origin hispanic areas.   people were less likely to make an assumption as to her country of origin.

3 hours ago, nixpix5 said:

I feel like in my region, girl and guy are equivalent. 

I would be offended by "chick" haha! That would be a jaw dropper though "that chick I interviewed" that would be like saying "that dude I interviewed" 

 

uh no.  I dont' see chick and dude as equal.  but both would be inappropriate in a work environment.  .

but then- 1ds gave 3ds his nickname... . dudeling.  (because he was too small to be a dude.)

3 hours ago, marbel said:

I agree with this.

I've told this story here before - years ago I had a male coworker who called all the women "Babe."  He was from Mississippi, I think, and "Babe" was just his default for everyone, regardless of age, place in the company hierarchy, race, ethnicity, etc. He was a sales rep and I worked in sales support - so, was a minion among several other minions, all female. He was such a kind, respectful man who treated me (and others in the group) like part of the team, not underlings. When he won sales awards he was always ready to thank (usually with public words and a gift) all the people who'd helped him achieve his goals. Plenty of other reps (including the sole female at that time; it was a male-dominated industry) knew all the right words to say but treated the support staff like crap.  

Of course this was 30+  years ago and language was probably not as big a deal then as it is now.  I imagine today a guy would say "Babe" once and would be hauled in to a visit with HR to change his ways. 

 

much truth here.  something I learned from my FoO - do the words match the behavior.   I recall one time dealing with someone who was like the second group you mentioned -said the correct words while treating you like garbage.  one day one was being nice  . . . the very first through in my head was "what do you want?"

this also makes me think of one of the last scenes in my fair lady.   professor higgen's is claiming to treat all women the same and that it was consistency that was important.  eliza is complaining about how he only sees her as a common flower girl and he'll never treat her as a lady.  to which he responds he treats ladies as common flower girls.   

[AmandaVT]

1 hour ago, poppy said:

 

My point was, no, we don't all have our own tipping point. Words DO become universally considered rude.  See: Retard.  Or: Colored.   Or: Lame, to describe a person who is disabled.

I think girl is on the edge.   Some people mind it, others do not.  So best to avoid in mixed company (mixed meaning, not all close friends of the same mindset).
Similar: Illegals. It's not a term I'd ever use to describe a human being, but I know it's common in some area. 
Similar: Tranny.

Then there are words that USED to be offensive, but have been reclaimed so far that the insult has no weight and it is used  positively most of the time. Queer.  Dyke. Geek.

 

 

This must be regional - using the terms "illegals" or "tranny" where I live would be met with the same response as "retard" or the n word. (I didn't even want to type those words!)

As far as "girl" - I agree. I wouldn't call anyone a girl or refer to someone as a girl, but it wouldn't necessarily offend me. 

 

 

[SKL]

So to be fair, let's all agree to use only "woman" for a female over 18 and only "man" for a male over 18.

It seems totally unfair for males to have a non-formal term that is acceptable in the workplace when women do not.

[SKL]

1 minute ago, StellaM said:

 

Boy is the opposite to girl. I am totally behind not calling a man 'boy', especially as that has nasty, racist undertones, depending on who is calling 'boy' to whom.

'Guys' tends to be used here when a group is mixed. "Hey guys, how's everyone this morning ?" I imagine it will be used more and more as it becomes less and less PC to use sex based terms like 'woman' or 'girl' (an, to a lesser extent, 'man' and 'boy'). There are schools in the UK, for example, where teachers have been requested not to address girls as 'girls'. 

 

And here's where I say that's crazy.  What is wrong with being a girl?  If girl is a bad word, it must mean being a girl is an awful thing.  How can people not see the dangerous implications of this kind of thinking?

So you don't use "guy" to refer to an individual male over 18?  You would always say "man?"  Then that's good, you won't have to change your language.  :)

[regentrude]

7 minutes ago, StellaM said:

'Guys' tends to be used here when a group is mixed. "Hey guys, how's everyone this morning ?"

... and it's considered offensive by some to be used for mixed groups because they consider it a term referring to males only. Sigh. 

As others have pointed out, there is no female equivalent to "guys". The only way to correctly address a mixed group is "ladies and gentlement" which is stilted and too formal for many occasions. Unless you are in the South; then you can say "y'all" 

[nixpix5]

49 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

I always hear gals as girls with a country twang.

 

 - except not all hispanic migrants are mexicans (and not all hispanics are even immigrants).   My ex-sil is latina - she had many experiences in the miami area that royally pissed her off.  not from the whites - from the cubans assuming her to be cuban, and boy did they change their tune (downward) when they found out she was from south america.

she also has lived in areas with large mexican migrant populations - she didn't appreciate people assuming she's mexican.   she's actually preferred living in predominantly white areas rather than predominantly one country of origin hispanic areas.   people were less likely to make an assumption as to her country of origin.

 

uh no.  I dont' see chick and dude as equal.  but both would be inappropriate in a work environment.  .

but then- 1ds gave 3ds his nickname... . dudeling.  (because he was too small to be a dude.)

 

much truth here.  something I learned from my FoO - do the words match the behavior.   I recall one time dealing with someone who was like the second group you mentioned -said the correct words while treating you like garbage.  one day one was being nice  . . . the very first through in my head was "what do you want?"

this also makes me think of one of the last scenes in my fair lady.   professor higgen's is claiming to treat all women the same and that it was consistency that was important.  eliza is complaining about how he only sees her as a common flower girl and he'll never treat her as a lady.  to which he responds he treats ladies as common flower girls.   

Good point about Hispanic vs Latino/Latina and Mexican. Where I was it was predominately Mexican. I do understand what you mean though my Japanese aunt much prefers being called Asian since she often is called Chinese or Korean. 

I still find both "chick" and "dude" to be widely innapropriate in a work environment even though I use dude freely at home. ;)

Someone should set up a spin off poll to see what people prefer to be called (girl, woman, chick, candidate, etc). I am intrigued at this point :)

[Greta]

10 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

It's flipping insane to suggest not calling girls (in a girls school!) 'girls'. There is absolutely nothing wrong with addressing  female (sorry Greta!) children as 'girls'.

 

 

No need to apologize to me -- you used female as an adjective!  That gets the Greta Stamp of Approval (for what little that's worth, lol!).  

And I think it's crazy that girls "shouldn't" be called girls and women "shouldn't" be called women.  These are the appropriate terms for their respective groups!  This need to avoid those terms and use terms like "female" (as a noun!) instead absolutely mystifies me.

[Cosmos]

24 minutes ago, regentrude said:

... and it's considered offensive by some to be used for mixed groups because they consider it a term referring to males only. Sigh. 

As others have pointed out, there is no female equivalent to "guys". The only way to correctly address a mixed group is "ladies and gentlement" which is stilted and too formal for many occasions. Unless you are in the South; then you can say "y'all" 

I use "folks" for this, as in "Do you folks need anything over here?" It sounds sort of cornball, but I prefer it to "guys".

[Guest]

10 hours ago, OKBud said:

My husband used to call women girls and I'd act shocked. "Gasp! My goodness she got her PhD as a teenager?! That's AMAZING!" (Or whatever he was talking about)

 

 

This is similar to what I do. I say, “unless it was a ten-year-old genius, it was a woman, not a girl.” However, this is with my husband, and not a co-worker. He already knows I am the Word Police. 

[poppy]

36 minutes ago, SKL said:

And here's where I say that's crazy.  What is wrong with being a girl?  If girl is a bad word, it must mean being a girl is an awful thing.  How can people not see the dangerous implications of this kind of thinking?

So you don't use "guy" to refer to an individual male over 18?  You would always say "man?"  Then that's good, you won't have to change your language.  :)

 

You're quoting someone says 'woman' is an offensive term , I think she is deliberately exaggerating in order to make the "other side" sound irrational.

[poppy]

35 minutes ago, regentrude said:

... and it's considered offensive by some to be used for mixed groups because they consider it a term referring to males only. Sigh. 

As others have pointed out, there is no female equivalent to "guys". The only way to correctly address a mixed group is "ladies and gentlement" which is stilted and too formal for many occasions. Unless you are in the South; then you can say "y'all" 

 

 

To whom is the use of "guys" for mixed groups offensive?

The idea that girl is not an appropriate term  for an adult woman is not some new-fangled trendy thing... it's from the 1970s. It was a given growing up for me.

I went to a Womens College in the early 1990s and there were people who called it a "Girls School" and I thought they were waaaaay behind the times - though I wasn't passionate enough about it to correct anyone.  It was the same people who used the term "Oriental" when they meant Asian. 

[Tanaqui]

I'd generally address a mixed group as "Everyone" as "Hey, everyone" or "Can everyone please look over here?" That doesn't sound stilted and formal. There *are* options.

[regentrude]

3 minutes ago, poppy said:

To whom is the use of "guys" for mixed groups offensive?

certain women/groups of women. Because it is considered a male term

[SKL]

My English teacher taught me that "ladies and gentlemen" is not appropriate for an American audience or most other audiences, as those are specific titles in English aristocracy that don't apply to most of us.  So that doesn't work IMO.

(I do say things like "this lady ___" when I'm casually describing a situation, but not in a formal setting.)

I also would not call a group of people "guys" in a formal setting.  For example, if I was teaching at a professional seminar.  If I needed to use a collective term, I'd probably say something like "fellow ___s" or in a school setting, "students / scholars" or if not as an address but as a reference, "this group."

[regentrude]

7 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

I'd generally address a mixed group as "Everyone" as "Hey, everyone" or "Can everyone please look over here?" That doesn't sound stilted and formal. There *are* options.

Oh, good idea.

 

[regentrude]

3 minutes ago, StellaM said:

Article on the banning of 'girls' in a girls school, for those who think it's exaggeration. Not the Daily Mail :)

yes, from all I read, the push against addressing students as "girls" and "boys" in schools has to do with avoiding sorting kids by binary gender.

[regentrude]

Pondering the "everyone" address some more... it does not quite accomplish the same as "you guys", because its awkward in direct address because it sounds like a third person, not second. If I say to a group "is everyone finished" that's like talking about them, not to them - if that makes any sense.

[Rosie_0801]

11 minutes ago, StellaM said:

The word I most loathe as a form of group address is 'folks' or 'folx'. Ugh. I can't stand that term. 

 

 

Folx is a word?

[SKL]

25 minutes ago, StellaM said:

The word I most loathe as a form of group address is 'folks' or 'folx'. Ugh. I can't stand that term. 

 

LOL I use "folks" because it feels (to me) less obnoxious than most other group terms.  But I would not use it in a formal setting.

[Murphy101]

14 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

Folx is a word?

 

I think the replacing endings with an x in general is just asinine.

[Bluegoat]

4 hours ago, Greta said:

 

I'm sure it isn't deliberately or consciously meant to be mean.  But it is.  If they were consistent about it (males and females) it would be one thing.  But in my experience, people aren't consistent about it at all (men and females).

Is the word woman considered "politicized"?  I'm not sure I understand that.

 

Oh, it's consistent.  I'm not sure why it was decided not to use "woman".  It's either men and females or males and females.  With these sorts of policy/training things, sometimes what seems an odd decision can be made because of something very specific or random - like someone on a committee had some sort of bee in the bonnet.  Once the decision is made in an organization like that, it takes on a life of its own and it's very difficult to change the practice - you have a generation of soldiers that do it that way, and all the new ones are trained by them or copy what they do or just get used to it.  

[Rosie_0801]

2 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

I think the replacing endings with an x in general is just asinine.

I can see a point to Latinx, but "folks" is already an all inclusive word. In folx, the x is expanding the inclusiveness to whom, exactly?
And womxn? It's not more inclusive if no one but the originator and her mates can guess how to pronounce it! I can't be bothered to be a womexn. 

[Cosmos]

10 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Sadly, yes. And that 'lx' just does my head in. I don't know what I would do if someone addressed me as 'folx'. Scream ? The day we're all folx I retreat to my hermitage and never speak to another human again.

Wow, that's an extreme reaction. Have you never had a waitress say, "How are you folks this evening? My name is . . . " ? Do people in your region never say, "Well folks, I'm going to call it a night"?

[Robin M]

Ladies and Gentlemen has been the proper form of address for business or any other type of formal meeting for as long as I can remember. No matter what business I worked for.  

Folks to me is more rural form of address I guess and I’ve only used it for referring to parents most of the time.  

As far as the girls school eliminating girls from vocabulary, seems to me the only way to avoid offending students is to change to all inclusive school and no longer be a private school for girls.  If you identify as female or are female in any form, then aren’t you female?  And if you don’t identify as female, should you be going to an all girls school?  

 

 

[Murphy101]

13 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Sadly, yes. And that 'lx' just does my head in. I don't know what I would do if someone addressed me as 'folx'. Scream ? The day we're all folx I retreat to my hermitage and never speak to another human again.

“Folx” is kind of brilliant. Even with the usual spelling, “folks” is an inclusive word, avoiding the gender associations of “guys,” “dudes,” and other male-associated words. That “x” retains the traditional pronunciation but opens the tent wider. Zimman praised this word for “suggesting solidarity” and representing “the everyday people.” Society has a long way to go, but maybe someday we can all just be folx.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2017/05/09/womyn-wimmin-and-other-folx/vjhPn82ITGgCCbE12iNn1N/story.html

 

What the hecken.  Changing the k to x makes the tent wider to what? There's males.  There's females.  That's it with a rare exception for the humans who have neither or both, but even most of them usually identify as one or the other. Folks is not a male or female term, it's a collective neutral noun. Makes no sense at all to insist on changing to an x.

 

[Bluegoat]

2 hours ago, LMD said:

 

Yep! I cannot picture a woman boss using that language with her team of mostly men. Come on boys, need those files! Can one of you boys bring some coffee to the conference room? Which one of you boys  can run this report up to finance?

 

Hmm, what if it's a different kind of work setting than an office.  Say, a female ranch manager to a bunch of cowboys?

[Cosmos]

1 minute ago, StellaM said:

No. Not in my neck of the woods.

In any case, my screaming will be saved for 'folx' not 'folks' :) I just really hate it.

Huh, interesting. Just out of curiosity, what do wait staff tend to say in your region.

And not to belabor the point, but how would you know if someone is saying "folx" vs "folks". Aren't they pronounced the same?

[Bluegoat]

I've known a few people who think guys means just men.  I've always thought of it as being men or women and men, but it seems fairly common to think of it as male only, so I don't think it's a misunderstanding.

[Bluegoat]

1 minute ago, StellaM said:

I think in the dim past - 1980's ? - I thought of it as a male term, but I'm pretty sure I haven't thought of it that way for a long time. As always, these things are going to differ by region. 

 

Yes, and also by other demographic differences too.  Age, ethnicity, class, etc.  Which I think is a good reason not to get too worked up about the words, the person you are talking to might have a background that is just so different from your own.  I'm not sure there is any way to have everyone speaking according to some common set of rules, and it shouldn't really be necessary.

[mytwomonkeys]

“Folx” is definitely a new word for me. I had no idea! And I live in a seriously small, rural, cow town in the south.... where the waitress calls you darling, the Dollar General manager calls you sweetie, and a group of grown women could easily be addressed as, “Hey girls”. If Im frustrated, I don’t even call my own child by his name, but call him “son”... yet I’ve never addressed my daughter that way, lol... so that’s really weird when I think about it. Even if I don’t like a 23 year old calling me sweetie (I’m 46) I know she’s genuinely just using common language for where we live. I’m sure I’ll be listening to conversations this week with a new set of ears :-)

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

... and it's considered offensive by some to be used for mixed groups because they consider it a term referring to males only. Sigh. 

As others have pointed out, there is no female equivalent to "guys". The only way to correctly address a mixed group is "ladies and gentlement" which is stilted and too formal for many occasions. Unless you are in the South; then you can say "y'all" 

 

some people seem to live to be offended.  if it's not one thing it's another.

1 hour ago, nixpix5 said:

Good point about Hispanic vs Latino/Latina and Mexican. Where I was it was predominately Mexican. I do understand what you mean though my Japanese aunt much prefers being called Asian since she often is called Chinese or Korean. 

I still find both "chick" and "dude" to be widely innapropriate in a work environment even though I use dude freely at home. ;)

Someone should set up a spin off poll to see what people prefer to be called (girl, woman, chick, candidate, etc). I am intrigued at this point :)

 

after mistaking referring to an eastern european as russian .....I've learned to stick to regional descriptors unless I'm certain of the country of origin.   even then . .I was talking with a ukrainian and mentioned dh's neice (who is married to a ukranian - they live in europe) and her kids being trilingual.  (including russian. - german and english. she was cute when she was little.  she didn't know what language the person caring for her spoke  -so she'd go through all three.)  he bristled at the mention of russia.

we have a lot of different asian populations here - so I get it . . . .some wont' talk to each other.

1 hour ago, SKL said:

My English teacher taught me that "ladies and gentlemen" is not appropriate for an American audience or most other audiences, as those are specific titles in English aristocracy that don't apply to most of us.  So that doesn't work IMO.

(I do say things like "this lady ___" when I'm casually describing a situation, but not in a formal setting.)

I also would not call a group of people "guys" in a formal setting.  For example, if I was teaching at a professional seminar.  If I needed to use a collective term, I'd probably say something like "fellow ___s" or in a school setting, "students / scholars" or if not as an address but as a reference, "this group."

 

your english teacher was incorrect.  it has been proper to refer to non-aristocratic adult males and females in a social setting as ladies and gentlemen (and sometimes in an academic setting) for longer than we've been a country.

[gardenmom5]

as to "boys"..

 

I keep thinking of the scene in down periscope (or is it up periscope?) when Lauren Holly is telling "the boys" to pay attention to  what to do on their maneuvers.

[Bluegoat]

8 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

as to "boys"..

 

I keep thinking of the scene in down periscope (or is it up periscope?) when Lauren Holly is telling "the boys" to pay attention to  what to do on their maneuvers.

 

It was used a lot about military men at one time, there is a lot of war-time usage of "our boys" and that sort of thing.  Though I think generally about the men rather than officers.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Medicmom2.0 said:

 

I guess I’m wondering if it’s regional?  Because it doesn’t bother the people I know(or they wouldn’t be using it either), or myself.  If someone specifically said “I don’t like that,” I wouldn’t use it in regards to them.  But all the women I know use it as well when referencing people in their lives(“girls from work; I was talking to a girl from the gym; I’m going to lunch with a girl I know from church”—these are all examples I heard while out to dinner with female friends last night. The entire billing office at my job is 100% female and everyone, including themselves, calls them the “girls upstairs” or the “billing girls”, etc”), which leads me to believe that people I am using it in regards to have no problem with it.  I am now interested so I am going to ask, though.

for the record, I don’t hear “lady” unless it is referring to an older woman. 

It doesn’t bother me to be called a girl.  But I absolutely would not refer to someone that way who requested I don’t.

I’m sure it is partially regional, but no longer using “girl” for an adult woman is also a social movement that has picked up a good momentum now, at least in some regions. When I was working in a law firm in the 90s, “girl” was almost constantly used, except with someone elderly, in which case, “lady” was used. It did not bother me at the time, but I have come to dislike it in the past several years. I imagine it is not common in the law firms now, though probably a few of the older male lawyers still say “girl” when it should be “woman.” I changed my own speech habits as well. I reserve girl primarily for referring to pre-adolescent female children. For teens, I use “young lady/woman” or “teenager.” Women in their twenties I call “young women.” 

I correct my husband on this and my son if he says this. I also correct a lot of other terms DH uses that I don’t think are appropriate or useful ways of viewing other humans. (I.e., “trash” to refer to someone who is losing at the game of life. I correct him. I say, “No human being is trash. Please do not use that term.”) 

Just FTR, I do not think a woman saying she’s “going out with the girls” or having a “girl’s night out” is in the same category. For one thing, if I am grouping myself the same way, it does not conote the power imbalance that calling a woman whom one interviewed a “girl” does. 

[unsinkable]

Sorry, folx. Park's closed. The moose out front should have told ya.