Right or wrong? Calling out co-workers on language choices?

[Murphy101]

19 minutes ago, poppy said:

Could you please stop calling adults "girls"? It really bothers  a lot of us.

 

Only exception is girls night out  / boys night out.  Otherwise, it's really rude. IMO.

Um.  You don't speak for all women?

It also does not bother a lot of us.

If it doesn't bother those she is talking to or about, then she is just fine.

[SparklyUnicorn]

32 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

I  don't mean to derail - but on the topic of things to not call a customer (or coworker) . . . .

I LOATH being called "dear".   especially - by a clerk who is younger than me.  (always by a female.  males in the same position will use my first name.)  to me, it is patronizing in a way "girl" usually is not.   

 

I also consider it very unprofessional in any business setting.

 

Same here.  

Although I'm starting to feel highly flattered if a younger  guy calls me Miss.  He's probably really just clueless rather than complimenting me on looking that young, but shhhh don't tell me. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

7 minutes ago, Medicmom2.0 said:

 

Very rural upstate New York.  Someplace where the women would look at me like I had two heads if I started talking about subtle misogynistic speech.  It’s rural and conservative, and I work in an industry that trends towards more conservative than many.  I suspect it’s a regional demographic thing.  I never hear “gals,” but “guys” is used frequently. “Guys and girls” is common as well in reference to adults.

For the record, I do hear “boys” as well. Not as frequently as “guys” but not uncommon either.  Most of the demographic I am around is blue collar, and “the boys at work” isn’t unusual.

What I have found offensive? “Ma’am” or “Sir.”  I was raised that it was polite to refer to strangers that way, but it seems to be offensive to people here.  So I no longer do it and haven’t taught it to my children.

 

I live in NY and "guys" for women is common.  And I bristle at the Ma'am and Sir thing too. 

[regentrude]

3 minutes ago, SparklyUnicorn said:

Although I'm starting to feel highly flattered if a younger  guy calls me Miss.  He's probably really just clueless rather than complimenting me on looking that young, but shhhh don't tell me. 

Miss is much better than Ma'am. Which I really hate.

[gardenmom5]

17 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I don’t know that I have ever heard “boys night out”. I have heard “guys night,” but I can’t recall hearing “boys night.”

 

and, I think this may be a case of “rude” being in the ear of the beholder, because I don’t find it rude at all to be called “girl.”

boys night out is also a movie.  kim novak, james garner, tony curtis    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055809/    it's a comedy.  

 

my dd has a doc and is a professional - she uses the term girls.  at least with her friends.   though I think she has used it in regards to other female pharmacists. at least with me.  (she refers to males as "guys".)

[regentrude]

47 minutes ago, Greta said:

I think it's relevant because it gave the co-worker an easy and more respectful and more appropriate way to refer to her, but he (or she) chose not to use it.  "The postdoc I interviewed," for example, is a phrase I've heard my husband use several times. 

No, this is not correct. "Postdoc" is not a term that can be used to refer to any person who has completed a doctorate; it  is not a synonym for "holder of a doctorate" but refers to a specific academic position. In most fields of industry it would not be an appropriate term to refer to the person. 

A "postdoc" is a person who has completed a PhD and is continuing his training for a career in academia by working as a researcher for one year or two with a professor at an academic institution. 

[Bluegoat]

As far as the marine, I would not have said anything in a document that which others would see, unless I had already said it in private with no response.  That sort of things will give you a reputation as a jerk.

I also wouldn't have said anything about the word "girl".  Lots of people use it, including many grown women, and don't feel demeaned by it.  Quite a few seem to prefer it.  If the company wants to make some sort of policy on this I guess they can in a top down sort of way, and if I thought it should be considered I'd present it, without reference to individuals, as something to consider.  Otherwise, I think it is not kind to call out individuals for mainstream language usage.  It isn't fair and it is hurtful and causes divisiveness.  Also, it will absolutely make people think you are a PITA and they may even try and cut you out.

[Murphy101]

Sir and ma'am is like my accent, I'm not sure I'll ever be able to not use them. 

[gardenmom5]

I've been under the impression the objection to ma'am is it is seen as "old".   (like some women don't like being called "mrs. __" becasue they associate it with their mil.)

I roll my eyes at miss - but it doesn't bother me per se.  I just think it's silly.

dh did jump on his mother when she addressed a bd card to 1ds as "master" when he was little (she was being pretentious )

[Greta]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

No, this is not correct. "Postdoc" is not a term that can be used to refer to any person who has completed a doctorate; it  is not a synonym for "holder of a doctorate" but refers to a specific academic position. In most fields of industry it would not be an appropriate term to refer to the person.

I am aware of that, and I said it was an example.  I wasn't attempting to imply that's the proper way to refer to anyone with a PhD.  My husband works at a national laboratory, so it's a common phrase there.  But I've also heard people referred to as "a PhD" many times, which while maybe not technically great is still preferable to "girl" imo.

[regentrude]

2 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

I've been under the impression the objection to ma'am is it is seen as "old".  

Not just that. I also dislike the connotations of hierarchy it contains.

[regentrude]

Just now, Greta said:

I am aware of that, and I said it was an example.  I wasn't attempting to imply that's the proper way to refer to anyone with a PhD.  My husband works at a national laboratory, so it's a common phrase there.  But I've also heard people referred to as "a PhD" many times, which while maybe not technically great is still preferable to "girl" imo.

I have never heard people refer to a person with a doctorate as being "a PhD". A PhD is something people have.

[gardenmom5]

5 minutes ago, regentrude said:

No, this is not correct. "Postdoc" is not a term that can be used to refer to any person who has completed a doctorate; it  is not a synonym for "holder of a doctorate" but refers to a specific academic position. In most fields of industry it would not be an appropriate term to refer to the person. 

A "postdoc" is a person who has completed a PhD and is continuing his training for a career in academia by working as a researcher for one year or two with a professor at an academic institution. 

doesn't have to be in academia - but I agree it does have to be continued professional education by someone who has already received their doc.

2dd's bff (since they were 12) finished her two-year post doc last summer.  she doesn't work in academia.

 

[Bluegoat]

2 hours ago, Noreen Claire said:

 

I think that you have handled these situations exactly the way they should have been handled. If language of this type persists, and it needs to be called out, you could refer the offender to the company's mission of diversity and mentoring of underrepresented groups and how that type of language undermines both.

It's sad that many comments recommend you bringing these things up in a cute, nonthreatening, 'joke-ey' manner. That just reinforces the misogyny in the workplace. Men wouldn't buffer their criticisms this way, why should the OP?

 

Um, yes, men would.  Any man who is not an a$$ is also going to bring small issues like this up in a friendly way that will hopefully be received with good results, rather than make the person feel threatened or belittled.  Which might get outward compliance but sure isn't going to convince anyone that you might have a point.

[Murphy101]

1 minute ago, gardenmom5 said:

I've been under the impression the objection to ma'am is it is seen as "old".   (like some women don't like being called "mrs. __" becasue they associate it with their mil.)

I roll my eyes at miss - but it doesn't bother me per se.  I just think it's silly.

dh did jump on his mother when she addressed a bd card to 1ds as "master" when he was little (she was being pretentious )

Ma'am is not old! I've been called ma'am since I was a teen.  I call my kids/Dh/anyone sir and ma'am.

As in,

Mom, can I get a cookie?

Yes, sir/ma'am,  you can have two cookies.

 

 

[gardenmom5]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

I have never heard people refer to a person with a doctorate as being "a PhD". A PhD is something people have.

I consider assuming someone with a non-medical degree as a "phd" as being presumptive. there are many doctorates which are NOT PhDs. (and boy, depending upon the field there is a difference in doctoral robes, hoods, and headgear!  the breakdown was quite interesting.)

and for those who think they should call someone with a doctorate doctor socially I ask...do you want to call your lawyer doctor?

[gardenmom5]

9 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Not just that. I also dislike the connotations of hierarchy it contains.

I've heard it more used in regard to age.   I know it has regional variations.

I did have a friend in high school who was taught to call any adult woman ma'am.

[Bluegoat]

41 minutes ago, Medicmom2.0 said:

 

I guess I’m wondering if it’s regional?  Because it doesn’t bother the people I know(or they wouldn’t be using it either), or myself.  If someone specifically said “I don’t like that,” I wouldn’t use it in regards to them.  But all the women I know use it as well when referencing people in their lives(“girls from work; I was talking to a girl from the gym; I’m going to lunch with a girl I know from church”—these are all examples I heard while out to dinner with female friends last night. The entire billing office at my job is 100% female and everyone, including themselves, calls them the “girls upstairs” or the “billing girls”, etc”), which leads me to believe that people I am using it in regards to have no problem with it.  I am now interested so I am going to ask, though.

for the record, I don’t hear “lady” unless it is referring to an older woman. 

It doesn’t bother me to be called a girl.  But I absolutely would not refer to someone that way who requested I don’t.

 

Yeah, I hear it a lot too.  It's very common in majority female workplaces or groups of female friends.  I tend to hear men use "guys" but they do ay "boy's night out."

If people don't like it for themselves they can ask not to have it used, but I don't think it's up to, or possible, for individuals to control the collective elements language when lots of the people using a term are fine with it. When I was in the army, women were always called "females" which I never liked, but really, it's not my choice. 

[marbel]

1 hour ago, mellifera33 said:

Guy doesn't have a connotation of young age or lack of experience. "The boy I interviewed" would be the male equivalent of "The girl I interviewed." 

Right, but there is no female equivalent for "guy."   I was talking about this with my husband this morning and he said he would think "gal" was an equivalent. Our daughter came charging into the room and said that "gal" is no better than "girl."  

I'm guessing, obviously, but my bet is that the offender was writing in a casual manner to coworkers and if the conversation had been about a male, would have used "guy." "Girl" is the closest female equivalent, though obviously not good enough.

ETA:  My reaction might change if the person who said "girl" has a known history of using demeaning language toward women.  

[SparklyUnicorn]

29 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Miss is much better than Ma'am. Which I really hate.

I hate this too.

Barf

Just call me Wendy or at worse hey you.  LOL 

[Bluegoat]

11 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

I consider assuming someone with a non-medical degree as a "phd" as being presumptive. there are many doctorates which are NOT PhDs. (and boy, depending upon the field there is a difference in doctoral robes, hoods, and headgear!  the breakdown was quite interesting.)

and for those who think they should call someone with a doctorate doctor socially I ask...do you want to call your lawyer doctor?

 

Do lawyers in the US usually have doctorates? They don't here.

Our practice here is anyone with an actual doctorate is properly called Dr.  So, my friend who is a classics prof, for example.  Also, some people with professional degrees, like medical doctors or dentists.  

[poppy]

41 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Um.  You don't speak for all women?

It also does not bother a lot of us.

If it doesn't bother those she is talking to or about, then she is just fine.

I definitely never said I spoke for all women.    But many women dislike being called girls and find it demeaning.  

  I don't think it's right to depend on each person to have to call you out individually if you know a term is bothersome.  

[Bluegoat]

Just now, poppy said:

I definitely said I spoke for all women.    But many women dislike being called girls and find it demeaning.  

  I don't think it's right to depend on each person to have to call you out individually if you know a term is bothersome.  

 

And many use it themselves or don't care.  I'd guess more than half, it's certainly a large number.  And they are going to be annoyed with others telling them they shouldn't, supposedly on behalf of themselves.

[Greta]

21 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I have never heard people refer to a person with a doctorate as being "a PhD". A PhD is something people have.

Yes, it sounded odd to my ears the first time I heard it.  But I've heard it a lot.  Seems more accurate to just say "a doctor" but I guess it's to distinguish a PhD from an MD . . . ?  Anyway, I apologize for being unclear and getting off track.  The point is, coworker could have said "the doctor I interviewed" or "the [job position] candidate I interviewed" or "when I interviewed Dr. Smith..." or any number of things that would have sounded better than "girl".

[gardenmom5]

27 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Do lawyers in the US usually have doctorates? They don't here.

Our practice here is anyone with an actual doctorate is properly called Dr.  So, my friend who is a classics prof, for example.  Also, some people with professional degrees, like medical doctors or dentists.  

yes-  lawyers have a JD = Juris Doctor.     in order to practice law in a given state - they must pass the bar in that state.

I used to be only those with a medical degree  were called "doctor" socially or even professionally.   now it's become a mixed bag.

there is a difference in doctorates which are professional (must pass state/national exams in order to practice in your field)  - and doctorates (phd is only one kind) which are not.

my dd has a professional doc - she uses the degree initials professionally (which is typical) - not socially.  

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

 

In a professional environment, I would expect to hear woman, person or individual. Not the term for a child. 

 

[SKL]

Why must we have equal terms for both genders?

That already isn't how it works.  We have 1 word for "Mr." - a male of any age and marital status - but at least 3 female versions.  So what?

My late best friend always referred to me as "girl" even when I was well into my 40s.  It felt just fine.

Listen to popular music for a while and tell me what % of adult females are called "girl" vs. "woman."   Also women who sing "girl power" type songs refer to women as "girls."

Anyone wants to call me girl, that is fine, as long as the person's actions reflect the respect I deserve.

[Bluegoat]

9 minutes ago, PinkyandtheBrains. said:

 

In a professional environment, I would expect to hear woman, person or individual. Not the term for a child. 

 

 

I'm curious as to what counts as "professional".  I think it's actually quite telling that there seems to be a sense that "you can't call a PhD a girl".  Whereas, in my experience among working class women it is much more common for them to call themselves and other women girls than it is to use other terms. (Not to say professional women don't do this, but among those who object it seems dominantly university educated and professionals.)

Which is to say, I really wonder if this is a matter of asserting sexual equality so much as it is about asserting one's place in the hierarchy in terms of class.

[SKL]

Another thing - I feel like the word "girl" is softer (for lack of a better term) than "woman."  This could be me being old-fashioned, but "woman" can feel quite grating to me in certain contexts and I'd rather hear "girl."

If a high % of women are fine with the term "girl" being used to describe them post-18th birthday, then maybe that's a valid colloquial use.

[SKL]

1 hour ago, poppy said:

Can I ask what part of the US you live in? 

I have heard "gals" to refer to a group of women, which I think is like "guys" - it's fine. 

And where I am, I never hear "gals" used that way.  Moreover, I view "gals" as being another version of "girls."  So if "girl" doesn't work, then "gal" doesn't work either.

[nixpix5]

2 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

I think the whole patriarchy aspect was OTT. I'd have said in the moment that the professional term should be women, just as men don't appreciate being called boys by women at work. The written complaint was also OTT to me.

I don't know what the racial comment was so I have no way of knowing.

My Dh corrected me for calling a game of Mexican dominoes Mexican dominos.  He said to just call it train dominos which I said was nonsense bc plain train dominos is not the same as Mexican train dominos and as far as I could tell there's nothing negative about it.    There was quite the debate in house. Dh works in corporate training and had a knee jerk reaction to even the use of the word Mexican in a game descriptor.  Which seems a bit much to me if context isn't given consideration.

Having grown up in a predominately migrant area where my highschool was over 60% Hispanic and my son is half, all of my friends much preferred the use of Mexican much more than Hispanic. It wasn't at all touchy to say Mexican dominoes or Mexican food and so forth. It just wasn't an issue. It does make me wonder when it became touchy. My son (again who is Mexican) made a comment to his white GF that was similar to yours and your husband's conversation and she called him out on it. They had a huge debate with regard to it but she is doing sensitivity training at her place of employment at the moment. 

[SKL]

While "boys" is not entirely comparable to "girls" in usage on adults, I have heard men use it, for example:  boy toy;  going fishing with the boys; out drinking with the boys.  It would sound weird to hear "going fishing with the men."

I do agree it would not be used in reference to an adult interviewee - for that it would be "guy," for which there is no female comparison IMO.  "Guy" is an informal word for random male (occasionally also females when plural in some contexts).  We don't have an informal word for random female, other than "girl," where I live.  OK there is "chick," but I don't think that would satisfy the OP's situation.

[nixpix5]

6 minutes ago, SKL said:

Another thing - I feel like the word "girl" is softer (for lack of a better term) than "woman."  This could be me being old-fashioned, but "woman" can feel quite grating to me in certain contexts and I'd rather hear "girl."

If a high % of women are fine with the term "girl" being used to describe them post-18th birthday, then maybe that's a valid colloquial use.

I feel this way too. I have a grating response to "woman" I just don't like it as much and I have a PhD. I am fine being called a girl. I have never had a male in my environment talk down to me or treat me poorly at work though so I am coming from that place of privilege. I might feel differently if I was working in a place where I women were not being advanced or taken seriously. I just haven't had that experience. 

[nixpix5]

3 minutes ago, SKL said:

While "boys" is not entirely comparable to "girls" in usage on adults, I have heard men use it, for example:  boy toy;  going fishing with the boys; out drinking with the boys.  It would sound weird to hear "going fishing with the men."

I do agree it would not be used in reference to an adult interviewee - for that it would be "guy," for which there is no female comparison IMO.  "Guy" is an informal word for random male (occasionally also females when plural in some contexts).  We don't have an informal word for random female, other than "girl," where I live.  OK there is "chick," but I don't think that would satisfy the OP's situation.

I feel like in my region, girl and guy are equivalent. 

I would be offended by "chick" haha! That would be a jaw dropper though "that chick I interviewed" that would be like saying "that dude I interviewed" 

[Robin M]

6 hours ago, Pegasus said:

In a recent e-mail to our director and a couple managers, a co-worker (same level as I am) referred to a woman with a PhD degree as "the girl I interviewed."  I debated whether and how to respond and finally sent a carefully worded email to my co-worker with no one copied.  I may have used the terms "misogynistic undertones" and "implicit devaluation."  The response was rather dismissive: "I can tell that this is important to you."

A while ago, I provided input to an upper level manager for a different co-worker's performance evaluation. I provided a well earned glowing review with specific achievements but I had specifically been asked to provide areas for improvement, so I suggested some gentle guidance be provided to the co-worker to avoid the use of a specific racially insensitive quip that this ex-Marine was fond of using.  I shared my input directly with the co-worker as well and I must admit that I haven't heard that quip from him since.

I'm a bit concerned that I may earn the rep as the "word police" or something but we work for an employer that prides itself on diversity and one of our missions is training and mentoring young people from underrepresented groups.

What says the hive?  Sit back and shut up or continue calling out poor word choices such as those above?

I totally agree with how you handled the review for the co-worker's performance.  You were asked to provide input for areas of improvement. The ex-marine was probably not aware the term was offensive to you and others.  Many people aren't aware of how word choices come across.    I overheard one of my employees telling customers a couple times saying "I'm not going to concern myself with that" when obviously it was something that the customer was concerned about.  When I mentioned it, he wasn't aware of how it was coming across.   When I worked for a corporation as a supervisor, feedback included the best ways to relate to customers and yes, letting them know when word choices weren't exactly appropriate.  

IMHO, the email to the co-worker could have been handled differently and it totally would depend on the age of the co-worker as well.  I would have just talked to her about it as an aside later saying you might want to consider that saying 'the woman I interviewed' sounds more professional than girl."   If you were my supervisor, then the reprimand about misogynistic and implicit devaluation would have been taken seriously.  As my co-worker, I would have dismissed it as personal opinion.  

So consider the situation.  If you are the person's supervisor, you have every right to provide feedback on word choices.  As a co-worker, expressing your opinion and letting others know there are certain words you don't like, it  is better done by personal conversation.  The co-worker may change their verbiage as the ex-marine did or not if they don't care.  If it becomes an issue and is considered racially or sexually offensive, that's when you would need to involved your manager or supervisor. 

Having worked in both corporate and small business environments, that my 2 cents for the day!   :)

[SKL]

When I was in graduate school (early 1990s), I had a dormmate who was all fussy about feminism.  She refused to say "hello girls," she would say "hello women" whenever she came up to a group of female students.  It took some getting used to!

But back to the OP - I would prefer and suggest using the term "candidate" if there were concerns about language implying something negative about the individual.  Of course then you might say "which candidate" and they might say "the girl / young woman you talked to yesterday."  :P

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

Correcting this speech isn't a problem. The way you did it might be. You don't want to give people wiggle room to think to themselves "Well, I'm not a bigot/chauvinist, she's just nuts!"

Instead of going on and on about the misogynistic overtones, maybe keep it simple and to the point: "I'd prefer it if, when talking to me, you refer to adults as 'men and women' instead of 'boys and girls'. Thanks."

Though even then, it might be better to run this through management, in which case you'd still avoid heavy-duty phrases and try something like "I've noticed some coworkers refer to adult women as 'girls'. This makes me uncomfortable, and I worry how it looks to clients. Do we have a policy on this?"

I think this resonates with me the most.

18 minutes ago, SKL said:

Another thing - I feel like the word "girl" is softer (for lack of a better term) than "woman."  This could be me being old-fashioned, but "woman" can feel quite grating to me in certain contexts and I'd rather hear "girl."

 

"Woman" used to feel grating to me until college. Then I noticed that people using the term about me or others were purposefully using it as a way to validate women (particularly when the men I was around would say it--it was almost always said specifically and seemed to be chosen purposefully), and I learned to like being referred to that way. Now to hear "girl" instead seems less affirming to me even if I feel it's being used neutrally otherwise.

9 minutes ago, nixpix5 said:

I feel this way too. I have a grating response to "woman" I just don't like it as much and I have a PhD. I am fine being called a girl. I have never had a male in my environment talk down to me or treat me poorly at work though so I am coming from that place of privilege. I might feel differently if I was working in a place where I women were not being advanced or taken seriously. I just haven't had that experience. 

1

I grew up where being respectful in other ways was more important than the words you use (probably much like the upstate NY environment mentioned), but elsewhere, language seems to matter a lot more. Maybe it's just that it's more diverse and people are more anonymous sometimes in a larger area--language carries more public opinion with it, maybe? In a small area, you tend to know a lot more about someone's intents and actions, and oftentimes, even really obnoxious people are just ignored vs. called out because "everyone knows so and so is just a jerk--don't let it get to you." 

[marbel]

15 minutes ago, kbutton said:

<snip>

I grew up where being respectful in other ways was more important than the words you use (probably much like the upstate NY environment mentioned), but elsewhere, language seems to matter a lot more. Maybe it's just that it's more diverse and people are more anonymous sometimes in a larger area--language carries more public opinion with it, maybe? In a small area, you tend to know a lot more about someone's intents and actions, and oftentimes, even really obnoxious people are just ignored vs. called out because "everyone knows so and so is just a jerk--don't let it get to you." 

I agree with this.

I've told this story here before - years ago I had a male coworker who called all the women "Babe."  He was from Mississippi, I think, and "Babe" was just his default for everyone, regardless of age, place in the company hierarchy, race, ethnicity, etc. He was a sales rep and I worked in sales support - so, was a minion among several other minions, all female. He was such a kind, respectful man who treated me (and others in the group) like part of the team, not underlings. When he won sales awards he was always ready to thank (usually with public words and a gift) all the people who'd helped him achieve his goals. Plenty of other reps (including the sole female at that time; it was a male-dominated industry) knew all the right words to say but treated the support staff like crap.  

Of course this was 30+  years ago and language was probably not as big a deal then as it is now.  I imagine today a guy would say "Babe" once and would be hauled in to a visit with HR to change his ways. 

[Murphy101]

47 minutes ago, nixpix5 said:

Having grown up in a predominately migrant area where my highschool was over 60% Hispanic and my son is half, all of my friends much preferred the use of Mexican much more than Hispanic. It wasn't at all touchy to say Mexican dominoes or Mexican food and so forth. It just wasn't an issue. It does make me wonder when it became touchy. My son (again who is Mexican) made a comment to his white GF that was similar to yours and your husband's conversation and she called him out on it. They had a huge debate with regard to it but she is doing sensitivity training at her place of employment at the moment. 

 

That's the kicker isn't it? Since when do white folks get to decide when the use of the word Mexican is wrong? Is there no small irony in that?

If it had some kind of loaded historical connotation, then I suppose a Mexican could point that out.  Or a white guy could enlighten his fellow white folks.  But to just presume that the word in and of itself shouldn't be used seems ridiculous to me.  Mexican is not a dirty word to be avoided in all conversation and terminology.  That's not "sensitivity".  That's something else I think.

 

[kbutton]

2 minutes ago, marbel said:

I agree with this.

I've told this story here before - years ago I had a male coworker who called all the women "Babe."  He was from Mississippi, I think, and "Babe" was just his default for everyone, regardless of age, place in the company hierarchy, race, ethnicity, etc. He was a sales rep and I worked in sales support - so, was a minion among several other minions, all female. He was such a kind, respectful man who treated me (and others in the group) like part of the team, not underlings. When he won sales awards he was always ready to thank (usually with public words and a gift) all the people who'd helped him achieve his goals. Plenty of other reps (including the sole female at that time; it was a male-dominated industry) knew all the right words to say but treated the support staff like crap.  

Of course this was 30+  years ago and language was probably not as big a deal then as it is now.  I imagine today a guy would say "Babe" once and would be hauled in to a visit with HR to change his ways. 

2

No doubt! 

It's also pretty common where I am from for people to be suspicious of formal manners--they have often been treated poorly by outsiders who move in looking down on them and use manners to purposefully snub them or to look better than them. 

Even the culture around "calling people out" is not easy to traverse. I have been told it's a really a white culture thing to avoid calling people out, but my understanding of that might be an oversimplification. 

I keep hoping we'll come to a little more cultural consensus on these things someday soon! 

[poppy]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

While "boys" is not entirely comparable to "girls" in usage on adults, I have heard men use it, for example:  boy toy;  going fishing with the boys; out drinking with the boys.  It would sound weird to hear "going fishing with the men."

I do agree it would not be used in reference to an adult interviewee - for that it would be "guy," for which there is no female comparison IMO.  "Guy" is an informal word for random male (occasionally also females when plural in some contexts).  We don't have an informal word for random female, other than "girl," where I live.  OK there is "chick," but I don't think that would satisfy the OP's situation.

 

Once again you can see the only time men use "boys" is in the "boys night out" sort of context or I guess "boys trip".  Never, ever professionally.

[poppy]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

And where I am, I never hear "gals" used that way.  Moreover, I view "gals" as being another version of "girls."  So if "girl" doesn't work, then "gal" doesn't work either.

 

You know who used the term "gals"? Dorothy on The Golden Girls. 

I have never heard it like "girl", I hear it like "guy".  "Mike a nice guy" is normal, while "Mike is a nice boy" wouldn't be said about an adult man. 

[mytwomonkeys]

I think both instances were handled poorly.  

You weren’t the one specifically called a “girl”, so to take matters into your own hands does seem like you were being the word police.

I also think calling the other coworker out in an evaluation was unfair.  I’ve always been told you should never be hearing something for the first time as part of your evaluation. 

Having said all that, I do think if certain words really irk you, then approaching the person privately is totally okay. I would do it in a personal conversation though, that way they can hear your tone (typing can come across as harsh when the person feels judged or accused) & you can give them the opportunity to speak their thoughts as well. 

[poppy]

1 hour ago, happysmileylady said:

The problem is that nearly ALL terms are bothersome to someone for some reason. So often, just being polite results in doing this mental game of second and third and fourth guessing ourselves.  

 

I don't agree with this, the question is about whether a term has reached a tipping point of offensiveness.

 When I was a kid, we used "retard" a lot. No one does anymore. And the excuse "well, every term is bothersome to someone for some reason!" would not be an OK excuse.  

Now I know some people prefer Latinx as a gender neutral version of  Latinos / Latinas. I'm OK with using it, but I don't default to it, because I don't think it's widely accepted as a change yet.

I do think the "girls" is a faux pas, at least in any formal or professional context.  And probably casually unless among friends.

[Greta]

2 hours ago, Bluegoat said:

 

When I was in the army, women were always called "females" which I never liked, but really, it's not my choice. 

 

Okay, see, I find "girl" annoying in certain contexts, but I find this kind of use of the word "females" absolutely ENRAGING, and I am sorry you were subjected to it.  At least if I'm being called a "girl" my humanity is being acknowledged.  But "female" could mean a dog, a cow, an ostrich, or a naked mole rat.  I am a WOMAN.  I really don't understand why so many people are hesitant to use the word woman!  I think it's a clear sign of a misogynistic culture when the standard word for an adult female human being is avoided, like it's icky or tainted or something.  The coworker could have said "the woman I interviewed" and it would not only have been more accurate and appropriate, there is simply no reason NOT to say that.  

 

[SKL]

Now I am wondering why men don't feel offended by the term "guy" in a professional context.  If it should be "woman" for females, it should be "men" for males.

Males of the workplace, unite!

[nixpix5]

25 minutes ago, kbutton said:

No doubt! 

It's also pretty common where I am from for people to be suspicious of formal manners--they have often been treated poorly by outsiders who move in looking down on them and use manners to purposefully snub them or to look better than them. 

Even the culture around "calling people out" is not easy to traverse. I have been told it's a really a white culture thing to avoid calling people out, but my understanding of that might be an oversimplification. 

I keep hoping we'll come to a little more cultural consensus on these things someday soon! 

Unfortunately even if we come to a cultural consensus now in a decade it will need to be tweaked again because words in and of themselves are innocent. We can control people's words but not their intent. Inocusious words become problematic words over time because people learn how to squeeze out of their innocence and use them to offend in some way. This will forever occur hence the need to continually upgrade speech. 

[Bluegoat]

4 minutes ago, Greta said:

 

Okay, see, I find "girl" annoying in certain contexts, but I find this kind of use of the word "females" absolutely ENRAGING, and I am sorry you were subjected to it.  At least if I'm being called a "girl" my humanity is being acknowledged.  But "female" could mean a dog, a cow, an ostrich, or a naked mole rat.  I am a WOMAN.  I really don't understand why so many people are hesitant to use the word woman!  I think it's a clear sign of a misogynistic culture when the standard word for an adult female human being is avoided, like it's icky or tainted or something.  The coworker could have said "the woman I interviewed" and it would not only have been more accurate and appropriate, there is simply no reason NOT to say that.  

 

 

Well, it was't meant to be mean, I think it was actually policy or at least how people were trained - it was meant I think to avoid any politicized words..  So "All me to the left showers and females to the right".  It just always sounded to me like they were talking about lab subjects.

I am really fine with most things people say, if they aren't jerks.  I've known enough people who said "women" in a way that was sleazy to care too much about that.

[kbutton]

1 minute ago, nixpix5 said:

Unfortunately even if we come to a cultural consensus now in a decade it will need to be tweaked again because words in and of themselves are innocent. We can control people's words but not their intent. Inocusious words become problematic words over time because people learn how to squeeze out of their innocence and use them to offend in some way. This will forever occur hence the need to continually upgrade speech. 

I guess I am longing for maybe a kind of third culture around these things--ways we all move toward each other and toward something intended to be respectful, recognizing that we won't always get things totally right. 

I just hear a lot about intent not being enough to avoid dismissing someone (from people who are easily marginalized), and I have seen that in action too.

[nixpix5]

35 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

That's the kicker isn't it? Since when do white folks get to decide when the use of the word Mexican is wrong? Is there no small irony in that?

If it had some kind of loaded historical connotation, then I suppose a Mexican could point that out.  Or a white guy could enlighten his fellow white folks.  But to just presume that the word in and of itself shouldn't be used seems ridiculous to me.  Mexican is not a dirty word to be avoided in all conversation and terminology.  That's not "sensitivity".  That's something else I think.

 

Exactly. For my son, he is Teflon and just doesn't get anyone being offended (which could be an issue he could work on) but he takes the "nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent" approach. Still, he said pretty much what you said to his GF. She said because he is "only half" his voice on this doesn't count as much. He just cracked up at this and shrugged it off.