FYI AP Computer Science A is not always accepted at colleges

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This post is about AP COmputer Science A (the programming one, the technical one) (NOT to be confused with AP Computer Science principles) 

Is NOT always accepted at colleges and universities even if you take the AP test and get a passing score of 3 or more.  My son is getting ready to apply in the fall for UC Davis and we met with an adviser to go over all of his courses, and he has to re-take a first level computer programming course at the community college...the community college allowed him to skip first level programming and take a second level but the UC does not.  In fact, even if he took second level programming, they wouldn't accept a second level course without the first level course. 

Just an FYI, once again, to check with the institution of higher learning your dc are interested in, to see what that college specifically accepts or doesn't accept. My son did not enjoy the course and we would have been better off without it.  

 

 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

This can be true for any AP course.  

There might not be a comparable college course. They might not allow AP credit in that subject. They might have restrictions in certain majors.

My CS major son did the AP CS course and exam but didn't take the course credit at his college. He said the majority of the students in his first CS class had done AP CS.  He thought it would have been a much harder course without that experience.

[mjbucks1]

I also think it is good to know that even if your child COULD get credit for the course, it MIGHT be beneficial for your child to go ahead and take the beginning CS course if that is their major.  Ds could have taken credit at his university for CS 100, but chose to take the course instead because it taught programming in C (or C+, I can't totally remember).  AP CS teaches Java.  Many people at the school fail the intro course, but ds felt well prepared as was glad his first programming course was easy.  If ds had a lot experience in C, he probably would have taken the AP credit.  He had 55 credits he transferred in, so it was not a big deal to not take the AP credit.  

Calming Tea, I am sure that was so frustrating for your son and I would have never thought about that, especially with him having taken the second course in a CS sequence.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

34 minutes ago, mjbucks1 said:

I also think it is good to know that even if your child COULD get credit for the course, it MIGHT be beneficial for your child to go ahead and take the beginning CS course if that is their major.  Ds could have taken credit at his university for CS 100, but chose to take the course instead because it taught programming in C (or C+, I can't totally remember).  AP CS teaches Java.  Many people at the school fail the intro course, but ds felt well prepared as was glad his first programming course was easy.  If ds had a lot experience in C, he probably would have taken the AP credit.  He had 55 credits he transferred in, so it was not a big deal to not take the AP credit.  

Calming Tea, I am sure that was so frustrating for your son and I would have never thought about that, especially with him having taken the second course in a CS sequence.

Yeah it would be frustrating to have moved along in the sequence only to have to go back again.

AP CS seems sort of tricky because of the different computer language preferences.  I think my son's college class was Python or Java. He didn't do C until sophomore year.

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I am just so thankful we contacted the UC of choice.  You really do have to start honing in on one university that you really want to aim for, because even among the same majors in the same system, there are requirements which vary enough that it almost precludes admission, or at least would make a full extra year necessary, once he transfers in.  For example, if he changes course and aims for UC Irvine instead, he may meet the transfer requirements, but would be missing many more of the lower division courses required for the major.  Life throws curve balls and we don't know what next year will actually hold until next year, but it's definitely obvious to me now that if you want to go to a specific school you really should hone in on what THAT school requires.  

In some cases, it can mean you can't even apply as a Transfer student.  For example, we really had to make a choice between CalPoly and all the UCs/  THe UCs, which requiring different courses to graduate, often require the same courses to transfer in.  THe CalStates, including SJSU and CalPoly, require a Speech course, and CalPoly requires all three Physics courses to be COMPLETED before even applying to transfer in.  I would imagine CalPoly does not take very many transfers for COmputer Science.  The specific course sequence would be difficult to achieve because of the prerequisite for physics. 

So we took CalPoly and SJSU completely off of our list.  SJSU isn't a safety school for Computer Science, as they expect just as high a GPA as our actual target school (3.5) and both CalPoly and SJSU require that extra speech class which frankly we just don't want to bother for him to squeeze in.

(and I'm so remembering that thread where someone was saying SJSU isn't a safety anymore. At least for Transfers, It's definitely not for the major my son chose; I don't know about any others or for freshman.)

So, speaking to admissions counselors has really narrowed things down and made it much more obvious.

[Momto6inIN]

DS is going to Purdue next year majoring in CS and they said the AP course covers about the equivalent of the first month or so of the first class in their CS sequence. They said if a student got a 4 or a 5 on the exam AND has continued in programming past that on their own, they could take the final of that class to try to test out of it. But it's not a sure thing by any means.

Oh well, we did the AP just because DS was into the subject matter and wanted a challenge, and college credit was just a bonus anyway. So if he has to retake the class it's no big deal. As a PP said, it's not all a bad thing if he has a somewhat easier intro to CS classes his first semester :)

But that sure would stink to have to go backwards :(

[Julie of KY]

Every school is different in what they will take. I've also seen schools tell my son they will not give him credit for a 5 on the AP Calculus BC test. Generally, the schools will let you test out of the class if you talk to them and you really think that you have covered the material.

[AEC]

3 hours ago, Momto5inIN said:

they said the AP course covers about the equivalent of the first month or so of the first class in their CS sequence. They said if a student got a 4 or a 5 on the exam AND has continued in programming past that on their own, they could take the final of that class to try to test out of it. But it's not a sure thing by any means.

That's roughly consistent w/ my expectations for first-term CS class.

Personally, I wouldn't use an AP test to skip __any__ course in my major, regardless of what that major was.

[MarkT]

I haven't looked at the UC Davis CS course sequence but AP CS is usually not a good match to what is covered in many colleges CS1 courses. So it makes sense in that case,

I was not particularly impressed with what they covered when I peeked at it a few years back.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

4 hours ago, AEC said:

That's roughly consistent w/ my expectations for first-term CS class.

Personally, I wouldn't use an AP test to skip __any__ course in my major, regardless of what that major was.

I wouldn't have an issue with using AP for majors like English or history where the material is non-sequential.  Using AP European History credit to meet a degree requirement isn't going to put the student in over their head in other history classes.

I think AP foreign language credit is it's own thing too. 

[daijobu]

On 4/16/2018 at 3:02 PM, Sebastian (a lady) said:

My CS major son did the AP CS course and exam but didn't take the course credit at his college. He said the majority of the students in his first CS class had done AP CS.  He thought it would have been a much harder course without that experience.

I agree that even if you don't place out of a course, taking the AP course and exam isn't a waste of time.  You don't want to be the only student who hasn't taken AP CS when everyone else has.  (Or AP chemistry before your introductory college chemistry course, and so on.) 

And I don't mean to put any preference on AP classes.  You want to show up at college fairly well prepared for those introductory weed-out courses, using honors, DE, self-study, or AP.  

I believe I heard on these boards that the AP CS A was dumbed down a few years back, which explains why the better CS departments no longer allow students to place out of introductory courses on that basis alone.  From Wikipedia:

AP Computer Science AB (discontinued)

AP Computer Science AB included all the topics of AP Computer Science A, as well as a more formal and a more in-depth study of algorithms, data structures, and data abstraction. For example, binary trees were studied in AP Computer Science AB but not in AP Computer Science A. The use of recursive data structures and dynamically allocated structures were fundamental to AP Computer Science AB.

AP Computer Science AB was equivalent to a full-year college course.^[6]

Due to low numbers of students taking the exam, AP Computer Science AB was discontinued following the May 2009 exam administration.^[7][8]

 

[daijobu]

More information regarding the elimination of AP CS AB:

Mr. Packer said the decision was made principally because of demographic considerations.

Only a tiny fraction of the members of underrepresented minority groups who take AP exams take the tests in one of those four affected subject areas, he said.

The College Board has made it a priority to reach such students, including those who are African- American and Hispanic.

“For us, [the question is], are we able to achieve our mission of reaching a broader range of students?” Mr. Packer said.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

1 hour ago, daijobu said:

More information regarding the elimination of AP CS AB:

Mr. Packer said the decision was made principally because of demographic considerations.

Only a tiny fraction of the members of underrepresented minority groups who take AP exams take the tests in one of those four affected subject areas, he said.

The College Board has made it a priority to reach such students, including those who are African- American and Hispanic.

“For us, [the question is], are we able to achieve our mission of reaching a broader range of students?” Mr. Packer said.

Interesting. The article predates my time paying attention to AP issues.

I think the test taker demographics had a lot to do with the introduction of AP Computer Science Principles. 

[3andme]

Quote

I haven't looked at the UC Davis CS course sequence but AP CS is usually not a good match to what is covered in many colleges CS1 courses. So it makes sense in that case,

I was not particularly impressed with what they covered when I peeked at it a few years back.

 

Interesting. We have been using Univ. of Washington's CS 142 (Computer Prog I) course and materials to prepare for the AP CS exam. It seems to parallel the AP course very closely with the exception of recursion and searching and sorting which are covered in the subsequent CS143 class. However, UW's on the quarter system so maybe that makes a difference in how much they cover.

[G5052]

This is exactly how it is here. The community college I work for (one of the largest in the U.S. btw) handles the AP CS Exam A differently than the four-year that many of our graduates transfer to. That school has a competitive CS program, and for guaranteed admission, you have to have the credits lined up exactly. Otherwise, you go in as a transfer student and have to take the prelims and THEN apply to the engineering school.

Different subject and different major, but we ran into the same thing with my oldest. He had to take some classes that the CC didn't require, and then several more they didn't offer at a neighboring CC in order to get guaranteed admission. It sounds complicated, but the credits at the CC are 1/3 the cost of the 4-year, and it was MUCH cheaper to line it up that way and bring him in as a full junior in the business school versus a transfer student.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

5 hours ago, G5052 said:

This is exactly how it is here. The community college I work for (one of the largest in the U.S. btw) handles the AP CS Exam A differently than the four-year that many of our graduates transfer to. That school has a competitive CS program, and for guaranteed admission, you have to have the credits lined up exactly. Otherwise, you go in as a transfer student and have to take the prelims and THEN apply to the engineering school.

Different subject and different major, but we ran into the same thing with my oldest. He had to take some classes that the CC didn't require, and then several more they didn't offer at a neighboring CC in order to get guaranteed admission. It sounds complicated, but the credits at the CC are 1/3 the cost of the 4-year, and it was MUCH cheaper to line it up that way and bring him in as a full junior in the business school versus a transfer student.

This is a great example for the need to consider the specifics of a particular situation, rather than going off of generalities, once you know what situation you are in.

I think that is one of the great challenges of planning high school.  It's really hard to find overarching "rules" that don't have tons of exceptions.  You look at lots of specifics and try to reason out what a reasonable pathway would be while you are still keeping options open.  Then you have to know when to flip and drill down on the specifics of where your kid is actually heading and leave behind all those possibilities that no longer apply.

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It turns out, that it can be very complicated no matter what you do.  Thank God that I took the time to call and get a good UC adviser on the phone.  

I cannot imagine what kids do, who don't have good parents.  Or whose parents don't even have this forum.  I've learned so much here.  I know this forum has saved us from learning the hard way!

In fact, I have had to almost obsess over this entire issue to figure out how to get it right.  Even if I were a very good parent, but working full time and /or just clueless...I don't know what would happen to my kid- he'd be sitting around at the CC taking a bunch of incorrect courses, due to the incorrect assumptions and /or lack of knowledge of the counselors and sheer amount of confusion in general.

For example, we assumed you really should complete all the courses for your major, which are outlined on ASSIST.ORG. WRONG....you have to complete only the core sequence outlined on your Target UC's transfer page, plus some basics such as two English Composition courses.  ANd have 60 units, in total.  You don't have to complete IGETC.  You don't have to complete General Ed. YOu don't have to complete what's on ASSIST, and in fact it's bad if you do because you'll take too long at the CC .....Some of the courses on ASSIST were NOT the ones my son needed to get in, just ones he will eventually need to graduate.  For example, Linear Algebra.  He must have Discreet Math planned or in progress to apply.  He cannot get in without Discreet Math.  However, Linear Algebra doesn't even need to show up on his plan or his transcript.  He can take that at the UC....we had it switched around and would have totally messed up his chance of admission if we hadn't talked to an adviser at the UC, for his major.  

Anyway, I'm just going to add to the chorus of "contact the college, contact the college"  lalalala contact the college or else.  

 

:)

 

 

[Roadrunner]

Ha. I wonder if this is one of those courses that is worth taking at a CC as opposed to AP route. 

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yes