How did you teach your children discipline?

[SereneHome]

This is probably going to be somewhat long and somewhat rambly...

Fist things first - I think my kids are great and the things they do / don't do are not out of any kind of bad intentions or malice.  But they have NO CONCEPT of discipline.  Whether it's chores or homework (that I assign to them) or cleaning their room or just simply picking up whatever was dropped on the floor - they just do.not.do.it!   Like they would see a cracker on the floor or a piece of paper - and they would walk right pass it!!   Who does that????

My husband thinks that it's my fault for not being consistently present and staying on top of them.  His idea is that they are too young to be left to their own devices.  He is not accusing me, he just truly believes that the only way to fix this is to stay on top of them every day, every "event".   Is he right?? 

They don't really have a lot of chores.  They have to clean up after  a meal - take dishes to the counter, wipe the table, sweep the floor.  Their rooms should be picked up.  And recently I added bath tubs and sinks in their bathroom for the older two.  That's it!!!!!

Also, they don't seem to have any concept of valuing what they have - whether it's material things like toys, books, games, etc.  If it were entirely up to me, 90% of their possessions would be gone by now.  But my husband had his toys thrown way when he was a kid and said wouldn't do that to our children.  I am suffocated by huge amount of everything that they have.  If they were taking care of their things, I wouldn't mind as much.  But they don't.  Games miss pieces, toys break, art supplies get wasted.

Am I too late in fixing any of this?  What do I do????  Feel free to be as blunt as you need to be - my feeling won't be hurt, I won't get defensive.  I just really don't know what to do.  Is there any hope??

 

 

[Tsuga]

I can understand how you feel because our kids were around that age recently. You are NOT too late.

The fact is, they're kids. You can't stay on top of them all the time. They will screw up, probably massively at some point, and definitely in small ways all the time.

I know tidiness hit me like a tsunami when I got my own apartment. All of a sudden, like in one fell swoop, all the things my mom taught me suddenly internalized.

You have to be persistent but you don't have to be perfect. Just keep plugging away. Feel free to impose logical consequences like, "I hate it when these crackers are on the floor. If they stay on the floor, I'm not buying them for you again." And don't. I know my family doesn't have certain things with wrappers for that reason.

One compromise on junk: How about, if it's not picked up by the assigned time, it goes in a big plastic bag with the date on it. They can earn things back one per day by keeping their room clean. If the things in the bag mean anything to them, they will keep it clean. 10 to 1, they won't earn anything back. But that is their choice. Would your husband agree to that? You aren't just tossing anything in rage. You have a long, reasonable grace period.

 

You are not alone and you're not failing. They seem like they should progress linearly and they aren't. None of them do. It's painful. :hugs:

[Tanaqui]

I block most siggies - remind me, how old are the kiddos?

[Rosie_0801]

It's not so much about discipline as caring, I think. They haven't developed reasons to care about stuff lying around.

[SKL]

I think your husband is right about keeping on the kids, with the goal being that they do the desired action often enough that it becomes a habit.

I have been too lax with my kids, and now I'm trying to fix it ... the number of times I have told my kids to return to the bathroom, gather their dirty clothes, and walk them to the laundry bin ... but I have seen some improvement.

And I think you are right about too much stuff, but I agree with your dh about not throwing them out unless they are really done with them.  You could make it a project where they help you choose items to give to a children's charity or sell to a thrift store for spending money.  Or make them pick something to get rid of in exchange for something new.  A couple weeks ago, my kid wanted to buy some nail polish.  She already had at least 100 bottles of nail polish.  So I told her that I would buy the polish and it would be mine until she handed over 20 bottles of polish she no longer wanted.  Now I just need to do that about 5 more times.  :P  We still have way too much stuff, and I am always working on storage strategies - and when I go through their room, I do throw out stupid things they hoard despite having no real interest in them.  If they grow up with a complex, oh well, I guess they can put me in a home.

[Garga]

When my kids were about your oldest kids’ ages, they struggled to keep their toys tidied.  They had too much stuff, like yours do.  But I am also very against the idea of getting rid of kids’ stuff (for the most part—broken bits go, but old action figures stay until the kids are ready to let them go.)

I sat them down and we talked about how hard it was to keep everything tidied. I said “I’m not saying this to be mean, but I think you have too many things. It’s too hard to keep track of them all.”  They agreed with me.

With their complete agreement, we decided to buy plastic bins and store about 3/4 of their stuff in the attic.  They could go and get it any time they wanted to. I bought gigantic ziplock bags (they’re at Walmart) to put toys in in groupings in the plastic bins.  That helped to keep things organized.  All of the action figures could fit in a bag.  All of the matchbox cars, and so forth.  Then when they needed a toy, it was relatively easy to find it.

If they really liked something we put away and realized they wanted it out all the time, that was ok. Nothing was put in the attic forever and ever. If they just wanted to play with it from time to time, then they would play with it for a few days, and then it would go back in the attic.

They loved the idea and seemed relieved that all that stuff wouldn’t have to be tidied all the time.  It worked very well for us.  The main play area stayed cleaner, easier. 

Note: I did have to get on them from time to time for trashing the attic when they were looking for a particular toy.  But those few times of trashing the attic was better than the daily tornado that had been the play room.  

 

[Garga]

I still don’t know about the discipline part and walking past trash on the floor.  They’re 15 and 13 now and still do that. This summer, I’m going to get on them about that.  Once this school year is done, we’re going to walk through the house a bunch of times every day looking with Mom eyes at everything.  I’m going to try to train them to see the way a mom sees, and then train them to take it upon themselves to fix anything that is a mess.  I’ll do this by having us stop everything a bunch of times during the day and look around and see what’s out of place.  And then I’ll have them fix it.  I just haven’t gotten on them about it in the way your DH suggests it should be done.

I think it’ll work out fine for my guys because they’re pretty compliant and won’t fret at me about it.  Maybe if I’d kept on them earlier, they’d already be good at it and I wouldn't have had all these years (15 of them) of messy-mess.  Oh well.  Don’t have a time machine.  

But, I sort of think that they’re not really ready to care about their messes until they hit the teen years—well my guys anyway.  I am only now catching glimpses of them caring about the state of the house and caring that they are not pulling as much weight as me.  Until now, I just don’t think they had the maturity to see me as a person that they could come beside and truly help. They saw me as all-powerful Mom.  I think they now see me as more of a regular person and therefore realize that I could really use their help.

[happypamama]

I will say that of my five kiddos, they all vary in how they approach that sort of thing. Some of them naturally put things away at an early age, and some didn’t, and that’s luck of the draw. As Garga said, limiting what’s out helps. It does also take being on top of them a lot, reminding them of what to do, etc.

 

Lately, I’ve been interrupting their free time to come fix whatever they left out or a job not done thoroughly. I’m not trying to be mean or overly nit-picky, but I want to help them to think about things the first time. For instance, I recently cleaned our fridge thoroughly. With a large family and only shopping once a week, our fridge generally has a lot of food in it, and it’s really easy for things to get lost in it if we aren’t intentional when we put things back in it.  Plus my husband really needs to be able to find his breakfast and the leftovers he takes for lunch easily. I laid out a new organization plan: dairy goes here (so the pints of cream don’t get lost), leftovers go here, the PB&J jars go in their own little container here (my little guys like to make their own sandwiches, but without a plan, we end up with lots of half-used jars of both PB and jelly), etc. When I find that someone has put something back incorrectly, I now get them to come and fix it, even if it would be faster for me just to move it myself. (DH is the exception because I’m not his mother.).

 

If I feel like a kid didn’t sweep thoroughly enough for his/her age (obviously I expect my teens to sweep better than my 6yo, but I expect 6yo to do his best), they get to come do it again, maybe with some pointers from me. Especially when they’re young, it does take constant vigilance to train them how to do things. 

[fralala]

There is plenty of hope for your young children!

I'm not so sure about your husband.

Sorry, I need some emoticons here. I'm sure he's a nice guy and wants to help you out here, not blame you. But especially as it appears you have 3 sons, I would merely ask what kind of role modeling they see in their father. What does he do when he walks by a cracker or a piece of paper? Is there an attitude of, "Hey, it's our job to keep our house clean! We all help out! I am going to bend down and pick this up. I don't care who dropped it, I don't care who walked by it, I'm a man, and a father, and it's my responsibility to keep this place looking great."

Or is an attitude of "Picking up stuff is a HORRIBLE BURDEN, no way am I going to pick up someone else's mess?"

It's also pretty hard to teach the lesson about valuing stuff to people who have lots of stuff and are regularly adding more. One thing I do is gradually prune. If they miss something and are looking for it, it returns, but otherwise things go into the back of the car and are donated. I don't think kids need to always know we're teaching them a lesson, and it doesn't have to be done in a mean-spirited way.

One potential result of always being on top of your kids to do things is that they will rebel once they are adults and have a little freedom to live in a pigsty. Another is that they will only be able to do things when reminded several times. Another is that they will develop relationships with partners who replicate the dynamic of constantly being on top of them to do things.

The people whom I know who are most successful with eliciting cooperation from their kids w/ chores seem to be the families where both parents pitch in with good attitudes. My husband and I have a long way to go on the good attitudes thing, but we notice the more that we work on it, the better things get.

[mom2att]

Most kids don't naturally have the skills to organize their belongings and keep them orderly, nor do they have the natural inclination to do so. I like Garga's idea above of developing a system of organization and access so that everything is not out all of the time. That's kinda what we did when my kids were younger--I'm definitely an "everything in its place" person, so we had specific bins for specific toys (and we were not skimpy on toys!). The bins were stored out of their reach until they were at an age to manage the rule of "don't get a new bin out until you've put away the first" on their own. My boys were big on making "sets" with a variety of different toys, so there were exceptions to this rule all of the time, but only as long as they were willing to put everything away properly after.

I will add that this meant I did a lot of cleaning and organizing alongside them for some time, because really, it's a learned skill, and some kids/people pick it up easier than others. I know plenty of adults who still struggle with it, and it's not for lack of being taught, it's just really hard for them--that's why "professional organizers" are a thing.

Anyway, my point is to create a system and then help your kids stick to it. They really are young yet. As to the picking up stuff that is seemingly invisible to them, yes you have to keep drawing their attention to it. I think you can go overboard with this and drive them crazy by pointing out every little thing, but I don't think it's unreasonable to say to a kid, "Hey you dropped a candy wrapper there, please pick it up and throw it away," or "You left your dirty socks on the couch, please take them to the laundry basket." You'll have to repeat this process over and over, and sometimes you will just go ahead and pick it up yourself, but even if it's never important to them to keep stuff picked up, they will see that it's important to you.

[Guest]

Well, for the cracker going unnoticed on the floor, I can answer who does that: the three ADHD-spectrum males who live here! When I came home from two weeks away, the house was decently tidy, but there were all sorts of small issues that I thought, “WHY don’t they SEE this?!” For example, there were five used dish towels stuffed into the hanging bar on the DW. From their perspective, they must think, “See? We didn’t leave dirty towels lying on the floor!” From mine, it’s, “You went to the effort of picking them up; why not hang them neatly? Or put the wettest/most used ones in the laundry?” Or they put tupperware away in the correct drawer, but it was all jumbled in there, whereas I put it away stacked and orderly. 

I agree with Garga, both in terms of strategies and in terms of just needing maturity. I have noticed that DS18 is bothered more by atrocious messes than in the past, like if his friend’s car is cluttered up with old chip bags and empty bottles. He’ll say, “Why don’t you DO something about this trash, man?” 

I like the idea of walking through and saying, “Let’s look at this with Mom eyes.” And I do definitely think kids need some regular chores they are depended upon to do with little oversight - but it takes years of oversight to get to that point. 

[HomeAgain]

Kids go through stages of being self-absorbed and being community oriented.  I think it's my job to take those self absorbed times and continue to make them aware of their community and surroundings.  I would never let my kid walk past a dropped item without picking it up.  Your dh is right, it has to be a constant affirmation of your family values and expectations until it's internal in your kids.  Every.single.time they miss an expectation, reinforce it.  Stop the child, steer them back, and point to the offending object. 

For example, my kids also get taught from a young age that when they walk into a gathering, the first thing to do after greetings is to ask the host/leader, "how can I help?" .  It is our family/cultural expectation that everyone pitches in to make things run smoothly, and getting them to learn that young means that they put community first without realizing it when they're out and about.

As far as games and toys, I was the child who suffocated under too many.  It made me feel helpless.  For my own kids we do a bi-annual clean out.  Things that have no home (we don't do toy boxes here), or are broken/missing parts get trashed or donated.  Children like orderly environments where they are sure of how things work.  I can't stress that enough.  So we focus on that to help us bring order to the toys in the home: open shelving and baskets/open containers make it easy to put things away.  Having a home for everything helps keep them neat and take care of them.
We also separate "toys" and "tools".  We have two sets of art supplies, one for play, one for art instruction.  If a tool is broken or wasted, then the child is responsible for replacing the tool.  Right now my 8yo is going through a strange phase of repetitive destructruction (think of something like stimming, where he focuses on the action and can't/won't stop on his own).  He's got a mini-list of things he's doing chores for to replace the items he has broken.  I don't care if he breaks his toys.  They are his.  But the tools belong to the family.

In your shoes I would start by instituting 10 second tidies.  Get the kids to work for a few minutes, or pick up 20 things to put away, or something similar.  Then ask them about reorganizing their toys, since they're finding it hard to put things away, and start with one shelf, asking the kids if they want to keep it, toss it, or put it aside to see if they can find the rest of the pieces to it.  Then organize what's left.  Make sure they clean that one area after each tidy-up.  Then slowly do more.  Eventually, as they're expected to continue taking care of the areas you've done together, they take responsibility for all of it.  Your husband is working off of helpless feelings when he saw his toys taken and thrown away.  You don't have to do that to get the same result.  You can include them in the work and let them make the decisions - even what to go in a rotate box so they can play with it again in a few months.

[Bluegoat]

It sounds to me like your kids are very normal for their age.  Most kids aren't very consistent at that sort of thing, and like someone said above, some individuals are just not as good at noticing that sort of thing.  

I do think that you are right that you can't be "on" kids all the time, it's impossible and I think it would make everyone anxious. And I also think you are right that less stuff makes a big difference.  The question of taking away kids stuff is tricky, but I wouldn't dismiss it.  Most kids have way more than they need, and it isn't always the case that because they think that stuff is important it really is.  Sometimes it can be kind of a revelation for them to learn that they don't need all that stuff, that it can make life better, and that it isn't really as much fun as they imagined.

 OTOH, your dh isn't wrong that consistently working on things like this can actually make a difference.  It might be worthwhile to try something like the method suggested in some of the Simply Charlotte Mason resources.  To establish a new habit it can help to really concentrate on that one thing for a period of time.

[SereneHome]

8 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

It's not so much about discipline as caring, I think. They haven't developed reasons to care about stuff lying around.

 

That's exactly it!!!!!!  I do NOT understand how can anyone walk pass a piece of something on the floor and not pick it up.  Or see a new game with pieces all over the place and not be upset about it.

And I guess that's a big worry - why don't they care????  Will they ever care??  Are they so spoiled (in a sense that they have so so much) that they will never learn to care??

[SereneHome]

Oh, thank you all sooooo much.  Your replies are so incredibly helpful.

To address the post about my husband - yes, he probably doesn't model the best behaviour and he knows that.  But I truly don't think it would make any difference even if he did, but it's me who is around the kids all day long and I certainly pick things up and put them away and don't leave my things all over the house.

It gives me great relief to know that may be not all is lost and there is hope.

I will be bookmarking this thread for sure.  Thank you!!

[Miss Tick]

Another thing that might help get things rolling is to establish an area where the mess is acceptable - keep toys in the toy room, and an area where it is not - no blankets in the kitchen, put away your dishes and food when you are done eating, and pick things up off the floor.

[Bluegoat]

One other thing I'll mention, in relation to habit training.  A few years ago I saw Sonia Shafer speak at a conference on the topic, and one thing she said really stuck with me.  She said, when the kids forget to do a thing they are supposed to remember, don't just tell them.  That might work for laziness, but not forgetfulness or failure to notice. That does nothing to establish the hbit of remembering, it establishes a habit of doing it after mom remembers.

It's better to try and create ways to trigger their own memory - like "what should you be doing now"  or "look around and what do you notice" or "why am I going to tell you to go back in that room."  Anything really, that gets them accessing the brain loop that prompts "tidy that up".

 

[Momto6inIN]

Your kids are young yet. Don't panic :) My kids were all significantly older than that before they "got it". It did take lots of specific and consistent training, but it did happen. I would definitely *not* expect kids your age to have it down yet!

We had expectations that they would pick up their toys every night after supper. It was non-negotiable and if it took til bedtime because they argued and cried and dawdled about it and they didn't get any playtime, so be it. I repeated the mantra "if you picked it up right after you were done playing with it, it wouldn't take this long, would it" so many times I will probably repeat it when I have Alzheimer's and don't remember anything else ;)

I also had them start cleaning the bathroom around your kids' ages and when the boys gagged because of the dried pee on the toilet I smiled and said, "Well, I know how to hit the pot every time so it's not me. Maybe you'll aim better next time." And you know what, eventually they did! :)

There was *one* time I got so fed up about toys laying around and being stepped on and them hiding the toys behind the furniture in an attempt not to have to put them away and whatnot that I told them whatever wasn't put away by X time on the clock I would go through and pick one of each of theirs that would need to be put in the burning pile. (We live in the country and don't have trash pick up and so we used to burn our trash. When we finally got a trash truck to put us on their route it was like the heavens opened and the angels sang. But I digress ...) And then I followed through on the threat, very cold heartedly and meanly too, because I picked out the one toy that was each of their favorite out of the pile and made them carry it themselves and throw it in the fire to show them that that is what not taking care of your things is like, you might as well toss it in the fire if you're not going to take care of it.

But before you all go into shock about my cruelty ;) I should also say that we had a discussion about this just a few weeks ago and my teenagers were laughing about it and about how they thought I was soooooo mean at the time but now they understand why I had them do it. So there is hope! :)

[fairfarmhand]

My teens still have to be told to pick up. Except for my 16 yo. She's got the neat gene. She's picked up after herself since she was a toddler. 

So here lately, I've been holding ice cream for ransom. I won't scoop it out until they've picked up all random objects and replaced them where they belong. I come along and check behind them.

When they were small I had baskets in each room where I tossed random objects. At the end of the day, it was sorted and the random objects were returned to their rightful place.

[dirty ethel rackham]

I'm an absent-minded somewhat messy person (born to a born-organized neat-nik.)  My mother never got over how her "lessons in neatness" (yelling at me) never stuck.  I struggle with it.  But, one thing that helped me was having routines.  When my kids were about the ages of yours, we had a series of routines throughout the day and we actually made charts.  (I'm not normally a chart kind of person, but these were just reminder charts, not reward charts.)  Before school included self care, breakfast cleanup and making their beds.  After lunch included cleaning up lunch, a chore or two of a rotating list (and those chores had specs like steps to clean a bathroom, or how to sweep a floor) and some running around.  After school list included cleaning up school work and another chore from the rotating list and usually a 10 minute tidy.  We had after dinner routines and before bed routines.  Keeping the routines short and having them written out helped me keep on top of them.  Once my kids got older and busier, I kind of dropped these routines, but I do wish I had kept up with lists of expectations.  I just didn't evolve my earlier system because life was hitting me pretty hard and now I am paying the price (a cluttered house and adults who are not always doing their fair share.)  

[Momto6inIN]

More hope...

Almost 18yo D'S just noticed the soap dispenser in the kitchen was empty and refilled it without me telling him to! I never would have dreamed of this day when he was 9 lol

[nixpix5]

First off, most kids go through phases of not seeing mess or seeing it and not even considering picking it up. I mean...doesn't the magical cleaning fairy do those things for you at that age? ;) It does come with time. Constantly hovering and pointing things out will trigger an apathetic and opposite response in kids so when you teach kids how to do this there is a bit of magic to it. 

First, you have to be consistent yourself. Keeping the environment tidy and having them see you picking up as you go is important. 

Second, make sure you raise kids to help others with their mess. Whenever I see kids say things like "I didn't make the mess so I shouldn't have to help" I cringe inside a little. Our rule is we chip in if we have the time and the person needs help. If I chip in when they are picking up their art supplies then I am modeling what I hope they would do for me. It works, my kids all help each other out without prompting and come in daily to ask if I need help with anything. This I feel we have done well. 

Third, you must be consistent. Our kids clean their rooms throughly every single Saturday without fail. It is an expectation they never even flinch at. They just do it knowing nothing else occurs until that is done. If their rooms get messy during the week I let it be a natural consequence. It takes longer on Saturday if you didn't periodically pick up during the week. 

Fourth, for those pesky random socks, pieces of food, scraps of paper, hallway light left on etc I use calm, consistent playful correction. It just happened this morning...we were working on science and my 7 year old was eating crackers as a snack. He dropped some and didn' pick it up. I blamed the cat...it went like this "everybody come quick! The cat has finally sprouted thumbs and got herself a snack! I know it had to be her because certainly my cherub cheeks wouldn't leave crackers on the floor to attract new invertebrate family members" Of course everyone giggles and said son said "sorry mom, it was me. I'll get them" It used to be common and now it rarely happens. I hold them accountable but don't bust their chops. I allow them to do it back to me if I slip on something. We talk alot about loving each other enough to help each other with blind spots. We also talk about what would it look like if we all stopped taking ownership? What would our house look like? 

So consistency and having them come back around to pick up is important but it must be done in a way that doesn't feel authoritative and militaristic. No sighs, eye rolls or " I'm so tired of repeating myself" statements. 

It is intrinsic motivation training, you must help them become automatic and find some reason why it needs to be done. External motivation never works. Don't do star charts or rewards for doing what should be expected of all family members. 

[fralala]

48 minutes ago, seekinghim45 said:

NOT PICKING UP A PIECE OF TRASH IS NOT A MORAL FAILING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Good grief  Who really cares???  Why should you care?  Now, not keeping game pieces together, that is a little bit different.  That is good stewardship.  But not hanging towels neatly....sigh....    You would have hated me as a kid or hated me now and thought me spoiled.  Sorry...  this just hits a nerve for me.  I'll never be good enough. 

 

Agree that it's not a moral failing. But I don't think the point is that it doesn't matter and one shouldn't care. People care about different things and are bothered by different things.

I think about it this way. Our kids often have concerns and get extremely upset about things that we, honestly, cannot get. Things bother them that seem silly and inconsequential to us. And truthfully, we don't have to agree. We don't have to say, "You're right, it is absolutely a violation and terrible that your brother made a face at you." Likewise, however, it is unhelpful to say, "That's a stupid thing to get upset about. You need to learn to get over it."

I think when I ask my kids to help me clean up they feel kind of like I do when they're complaining about someone making a face at them, or using their favorite pen. Like, seriously, you're getting all worked up about that? And inconveniencing me by seeking my help? It's not a moral failing that they don't do it without asking, but as long as there's someone in the house who doesn't like trash on the floor, you see a piece of trash and think, "Hey, that bothers Mom." And you pick it up. In return, I will help build a cereal box wall when your brother is making faces. Because I know. Averting your eyes only goes so far.

 

[nixpix5]

51 minutes ago, fralala said:

 

Agree that it's not a moral failing. But I don't think the point is that it doesn't matter and one shouldn't care. People care about different things and are bothered by different things.

I think about it this way. Our kids often have concerns and get extremely upset about things that we, honestly, cannot get. Things bother them that seem silly and inconsequential to us. And truthfully, we don't have to agree. We don't have to say, "You're right, it is absolutely a violation and terrible that your brother made a face at you." Likewise, however, it is unhelpful to say, "That's a stupid thing to get upset about. You need to learn to get over it."

I think when I ask my kids to help me clean up they feel kind of like I do when they're complaining about someone making a face at them, or using their favorite pen. Like, seriously, you're getting all worked up about that? And inconveniencing me by seeking my help? It's not a moral failing that they don't do it without asking, but as long as there's someone in the house who doesn't like trash on the floor, you see a piece of trash and think, "Hey, that bothers Mom." And you pick it up. In return, I will help build a cereal box wall when your brother is making faces. Because I know. Averting your eyes only goes so far.

 

Such excellent insight and said so well. 

[Katy]

One thing that REALLY helps kids put away toys and keep their rooms clean is having less stuff in the room.  I don't mean get rid of the stuff unless they want to, I mean buy some storage bins (the $1 clear shoeboxes at dollar tree or Walmart are large enough for many toys). You have to pay a bit more for larger bins.  You want to have about 10-12 toys (or sets of toys) per room, one lovey for bed doesn't count.  You can have less than that if you don't have the storage space for it.  Take all but the 10-12 you let them keep in the room to another location. This can be in a shed or basement or garage or storage closet, it doesn't matter.  Out of sight.  Then ONCE per week they can choose to trade toys in their room for toys in the storage closet.

We have something like this in each child's room, and if it doesn't fit in these 12 bins it goes into storage: https://www.amazon.com/Unbranded-Storage-Organizer-Plastic-Espresso/dp/B01N14VKJT/ref=pd_bxgy_196_3?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B01N14VKJT&pd_rd_r=2BY0QNA3MXWBQME8NTK6&pd_rd_w=fFqJC&pd_rd_wg=2Ur65&psc=1&refRID=2BY0QNA3MXWBQME8NTK6

This will not discourage imaginative play. It will mean more play because there will be less time setting things up and putting them away.

Another rule that helps is to limit play to ONE toy or set at a time. If they want to change toys, they must put the other one away FIRST.

 

Young House Love had an article about their "toy library" system years ago, which is how I learned about this.

 

Another thing that has helped us is to have joint cleaning time WITH fun music (usually Pandora's What a Wonderful World station).  Many hands make light work, and if there's a mess or after dinner dishes or whatever, no one over the age of 4 is going off on their own to play when it's cleaning time. We all rush to get stuff cleaned up. When they think we're done I rush around and point out things that still need doing.  It's amazing what just one parent and a couple of kids can get cleaned up in 5 minutes 3+ times per day. It's not enough time to deep clean anything, but it is enough time to get the crackers off the floor without ruining everyone's day. And I do mean a 5 minute timer.

[JennyD]

I read the title of this thread and thought, "Nagging."  I am gratified to come in here and see that that is pretty much what everyone is saying, too.

I do try to remember not to disasterize about my children's behavior.  It drives me batty when they are careless with their possessions, but I (usually) recognize that it is not especially helpful for me to think about this as "OMG I am raising spoiled brats who have no concept of the value of a dollar or anything else for that matter and are going to grow up to be useless wastrels."  Framing it as "they need to really check the floor thoroughly for LEGOs before vacuuming" tends to be more useful.

 

[catz]

I have teenagers now and they still need nagging and reminders.  When my kids were younger it helped a bit to have a routine.  Ok - now we eat breakfast, then we get dressed and pick up bedroom floors.  Then we start school.  Legos and board games are only allowed in 1 area and needed to be picked up when done.  We had a pre-bedtime family pick up.   Everyone gets their own dishes into the dishwasher after a meal.  Staying on top of decluttering is my biggest failure actually.  No one else is going to do it or notice it but me.  It's on my summer to do list.  

[EMS83]

Just replying to OP.  I both stay on top of them AND give them a lot to do.  And before I launch into this...our house is not clean.  It's a training ground, I'm human, and they're learning.  Nothing is done perfectly.  I'm just trying to drill habit into them more than accuracy.  and your DH sounds similar to mine, don't feel alone!  But...they help with pretty much everything, especially if it has anything to do with them or their stuff.  Everyone has a dish day, everyone does their own laundry, everyone helps with general cleaning, groceries, serves their own food, etc.  I'm still helping the youngest with some things, but not a ton.  Toys are reorganized weekly, and I don't find people's lost stuff.  They're also all in one location which is NOT the bedrooms.  Otherwise, it's just a bunch of redirection and recognition that this is a sloooooowww burn.  And that eventually, when they actually care to do all of this well, the mechanics will at least be a habit.  And I point out pretty often that they don't treat their things like they actually like them.  Broken stuff is thrown away, and not replaced by me.  If it was someone else's, they pay for it.  If they want another one, they need to use their own money.  I'm mean, though.  I've been told so.  :)

[SereneHome]

Again, thank you soo much for giving me hope!!

[SereneHome]

8 hours ago, nixpix5 said:

First off, most kids go through phases of not seeing mess or seeing it and not even considering picking it up. I mean...doesn't the magical cleaning fairy do those things for you at that age? ;) It does come with time. Constantly hovering and pointing things out will trigger an apathetic and opposite response in kids so when you teach kids how to do this there is a bit of magic to it. 

First, you have to be consistent yourself. Keeping the environment tidy and having them see you picking up as you go is important. 

Second, make sure you raise kids to help others with their mess. Whenever I see kids say things like "I didn't make the mess so I shouldn't have to help" I cringe inside a little. Our rule is we chip in if we have the time and the person needs help. If I chip in when they are picking up their art supplies then I am modeling what I hope they would do for me. It works, my kids all help each other out without prompting and come in daily to ask if I need help with anything. This I feel we have done well. 

Third, you must be consistent. Our kids clean their rooms throughly every single Saturday without fail. It is an expectation they never even flinch at. They just do it knowing nothing else occurs until that is done. If their rooms get messy during the week I let it be a natural consequence. It takes longer on Saturday if you didn't periodically pick up during the week. 

Fourth, for those pesky random socks, pieces of food, scraps of paper, hallway light left on etc I use calm, consistent playful correction. It just happened this morning...we were working on science and my 7 year old was eating crackers as a snack. He dropped some and didn' pick it up. I blamed the cat...it went like this "everybody come quick! The cat has finally sprouted thumbs and got herself a snack! I know it had to be her because certainly my cherub cheeks wouldn't leave crackers on the floor to attract new invertebrate family members" Of course everyone giggles and said son said "sorry mom, it was me. I'll get them" It used to be common and now it rarely happens. I hold them accountable but don't bust their chops. I allow them to do it back to me if I slip on something. We talk alot about loving each other enough to help each other with blind spots. We also talk about what would it look like if we all stopped taking ownership? What would our house look like? 

So consistency and having them come back around to pick up is important but it must be done in a way that doesn't feel authoritative and militaristic. No sighs, eye rolls or " I'm so tired of repeating myself" statements. 

It is intrinsic motivation training, you must help them become automatic and find some reason why it needs to be done. External motivation never works. Don't do star charts or rewards for doing what should be expected of all family members. 

I just can not love this enough!!!

[Tsuga]

11 hours ago, seekinghim45 said:

NOT PICKING UP A PIECE OF TRASH IS NOT A MORAL FAILING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Good grief  Who really cares???  Why should you care?  Now, not keeping game pieces together, that is a little bit different.  That is good stewardship.  But not hanging towels neatly....sigh....    You would have hated me as a kid or hated me now and thought me spoiled.  Sorry...  this just hits a nerve for me.  I'll never be good enough. 

 

We need a support group for parents who categorized artistic and moral priorities as moral failings. Even worse if they claimed towel hanging and their own aesthetic neuroses were more important than books. :Hugs:

I did love my mom but some people have such high standards that showing you care = developing neurotic, anxious tendencies.

Help them pick up but don't take it personally if they don't see the world the way you do. 

It is fair to say, you won't hit me if you love me.

It is not fair to say, if you loved me or cared you would see the world as I did and at the age of 9, straighten towels.

I get that. It took me a long time to realize that my mom was over anxious and I was an overachiever... She just had impossible standards for a child.

[ktgrok]

22 hours ago, SereneHome said:

 

That's exactly it!!!!!!  I do NOT understand how can anyone walk pass a piece of something on the floor and not pick it up.  Or see a new game with pieces all over the place and not be upset about it.

And I guess that's a big worry - why don't they care????  Will they ever care??  Are they so spoiled (in a sense that they have so so much) that they will never learn to care??

Honestly, is there a big moral value you are placing on things like noticing a wrapper on the floor, or a game not put away? These are not moral issues to me. And caring about this stuff is not morally better than not caring. I don't care about that kind of stuff because 1. I don't notice it and 2. I'm not materialistic at all. A game is just "stuff" and if I lose a few pieces, meh. Now, if it was someone else's game, I'd care because it would be rude/wrong to lose their stuff. But my own? I'm just not that attached to most material stuff. There are a very few exceptions (my kindle, lol) but that's just how I am. It's how I'm wired. It doesn't make me less evolved or whatever than people that put more emphasis/value on things. And I'm very nice, loyal, etc etc. I'm a good person. I just have little attachment to stuff. 

So I'd frame it differently. I'd explain to them how it makes life harder for you if they don't pick that stuff up, and that doesn't feel fair. They may never care about the stuff but they do care about YOU. So that's the way to go. (although they still may not notice the stuff on the floor, lol...that's an ADHD thing. But they can be trained to once a day walk through the house LOOKING specifically for that kind of stuff and pick it up then.)

[Bluegoat]

I think the moral issue of helping keep the house tidy is around pitching in vs being lazy.  The error is when you think someone who really doesn't notice is being lazy, or when you have someone who is a control freak and has unreasonable expectations.

But laziness or not caring can be part of it too.  I was so ticked at my kids yesterday because they absolutely destroyed the living room and just left it - made forts, threw the books all over the floor.  They expected me to clean it up and it was completely thoughtless. Realizing that you need to learn to do your part is an important part of maturing.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Honestly, is there a big moral value you are placing on things like noticing a wrapper on the floor, or a game not put away? These are not moral issues to me. And caring about this stuff is not morally better than not caring. I don't care about that kind of stuff because 1. I don't notice it and 2. I'm not materialistic at all. A game is just "stuff" and if I lose a few pieces, meh. Now, if it was someone else's game, I'd care because it would be rude/wrong to lose their stuff. But my own? I'm just not that attached to most material stuff. There are a very few exceptions (my kindle, lol) but that's just how I am. It's how I'm wired. It doesn't make me less evolved or whatever than people that put more emphasis/value on things. And I'm very nice, loyal, etc etc. I'm a good person. I just have little attachment to stuff. 

So I'd frame it differently. I'd explain to them how it makes life harder for you if they don't pick that stuff up, and that doesn't feel fair. They may never care about the stuff but they do care about YOU. So that's the way to go. (although they still may not notice the stuff on the floor, lol...that's an ADHD thing. But they can be trained to once a day walk through the house LOOKING specifically for that kind of stuff and pick it up then.)

 I Disagree with the bolded in any instance where someone is sharing space with another person who does care. If one lives alone, or one lives with other sanguine people who aren’t fussed about game pieces missing or misc stuff on the floor, then no, it does not matter. But if Oscar lives with Felix, then Oscar should be willing to care about some things simply out of deference for Felix. And the reverse is also true; Felix can let some things go because Oscar tries. 

As I said upthread, I am the order savant in a family full of order-disabled guys. Are these boys ever likely to notice and care about details at the level I do? Extremely doubtful. They can no sooner become order savants than I can give up caring and suddenly become blind to the many instances of disorder I notice. So, in order to live peaceably with others, we each have to make an effort. They should learn to see things with “Mom eyes” and be able to say, “well, I don’t know what the big deal is, really, but I know mom will really be displeased to come home and see dirty towels lying about on the floor and counter, so I will hang them up.” (Even though they didn’t hang them neatly, I do recognize that they hung them.) 

My role is that, when I observe that they hung them, I should learn to say, “well, at least they hung them...” They did laundry, though not a single piece of clothing got folded and returned to its drawer. I noticed this, but I didn’t lecture anyone on it, because I know those boys are saying to themselves, “see? We washed the clothes while you were gone!” Sometimes the neat freak has to be happy with baby steps. But that doesn’t mean the less orderly folks have no obligation to compromise. 

[ktgrok]

5 minutes ago, Quill said:

 I Disagree with the bolded in any instance where someone is sharing space with another person who does care.

But that's why I said that instead of trying to get them to care about the stuff on the floor, she needs to frame it as caring about HER. That they may NEVER care about pieces of trash on the floor, but they do care about her, and that's what she needs to capitalize on when addressing this. In my own life I don't care one bit if the cabinet doors are open or closed. I have no ability to even understand why that makes a difference. But it drives my husband batty to have them hanging open, so I try to close them...at least right before he comes home from work. I don't care about the cabinet doors, but I care about him. If he lectured me all day every day about WHY I should care about the cabinet doors left open I'd STILL probably not care. It would be wasted energy. Trying to get her kids to care about the stuff on the floor is probably the same thing. But focusing on the person, saying "it makes me anxious when the cabinets are open, please close them" does work, because I don't want him anxious. Her saying, "I hate having to do all the cleaning up after you, and if we leave that stuff on the floor I"m going to be in a bad mood" would work, at least much more than talking about the inherent ethics of the stuff on the floor. Put it in language they understand (mom in a bad mood).  

And still don't expect it to be automatic (I will never be good at automatically closing those cabinet doors) but develop routines where they stop and focus on these things. I close them right before he comes home, my kids pick up at certain times a day, etc. I won't notice those little papers on the floor when I walk past (I really don't see them) but once  a day I can purposely stop what I'm doing and seek them out. 

[SereneHome]

It has nothing to do with love or acceptance or seeing the world MY way. 

 I am not sure why the word "moral" keeps getting inserted, but yes, I very much of the opinion that it is important to take care of things you have, especially when you haven't worked and earned those things yourself.   And while I, personally am not a "thing" person, (I moved into my husband's appt in one car trip), I think it's important to understand the value of "things" in a sense that someone put time and effort and work into getting it and it shoudn't be treated like garbage (figuratively and literally).

I don't expect perfection or anything close to it, but yes, it bothers me to see that my kids treat everything in a very disposable way.  I hope it's just age and maturity level and not a sign of spoiled behaviour.

I have many examples where toys, food, clothes, games got ruined bc of accidents or bc they didn't know any better or bc of some games they created and how the item was used- and that's one thing.  But when things get ruined bc they wouldn't take the time to take care of it - to me, that's a whole other thing and yes, I want to change it.  And no, I don't consider myself morally superior bc I think it's the wrong way to handle things.  And no, I don't love them any less.  But yes, it is upsetting.

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

It's an ongoing process that seriously takes you the entire time they are under your wing.  And as they go out in the world, they still are learning.  Some are naturally more disciplined than others.  So sure you'll hear stories of the 5 year old who does everything she is supposed to in that department.  Most aren't perfect though.

Seems rather obnoxious of your husband to blame you.  He's also the parent.  And his expectations are not reasonable. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

1 hour ago, SereneHome said:

It has nothing to do with love or acceptance or seeing the world MY way. 

 I am not sure why the word "moral" keeps getting inserted, but yes, I very much of the opinion that it is important to take care of things you have, especially when you haven't worked and earned those things yourself.   And while I, personally am not a "thing" person, (I moved into my husband's appt in one car trip), I think it's important to understand the value of "things" in a sense that someone put time and effort and work into getting it and it shoudn't be treated like garbage (figuratively and literally).

I don't expect perfection or anything close to it, but yes, it bothers me to see that my kids treat everything in a very disposable way.  I hope it's just age and maturity level and not a sign of spoiled behaviour.

I have many examples where toys, food, clothes, games got ruined bc of accidents or bc they didn't know any better or bc of some games they created and how the item was used- and that's one thing.  But when things get ruined bc they wouldn't take the time to take care of it - to me, that's a whole other thing and yes, I want to change it.  And no, I don't consider myself morally superior bc I think it's the wrong way to handle things.  And no, I don't love them any less.  But yes, it is upsetting.

 

 

I think this becomes more apparent to someone when they work for their own things.  When stuff is handed to you (often when you are a kid) you don't know what went into obtaining them.  So you may not appreciate them in the same way as if you had earned them. 

[nixpix5]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

 I Disagree with the bolded in any instance where someone is sharing space with another person who does care. If one lives alone, or one lives with other sanguine people who aren’t fussed about game pieces missing or misc stuff on the floor, then no, it does not matter. But if Oscar lives with Felix, then Oscar should be willing to care about some things simply out of deference for Felix. And the reverse is also true; Felix can let some things go because Oscar tries. 

As I said upthread, I am the order savant in a family full of order-disabled guys. Are these boys ever likely to notice and care about details at the level I do? Extremely doubtful. They can no sooner become order savants than I can give up caring and suddenly become blind to the many instances of disorder I notice. So, in order to live peaceably with others, we each have to make an effort. They should learn to see things with “Mom eyes” and be able to say, “well, I don’t know what the big deal is, really, but I know mom will really be displeased to come home and see dirty towels lying about on the floor and counter, so I will hang them up.” (Even though they didn’t hang them neatly, I do recognize that they hung them.) 

My role is that, when I observe that they hung them, I should learn to say, “well, at least they hung them...” They did laundry, though not a single piece of clothing got folded and returned to its drawer. I noticed this, but I didn’t lecture anyone on it, because I know those boys are saying to themselves, “see? We washed the clothes while you were gone!” Sometimes the neat freak has to be happy with baby steps. But that doesn’t mean the less orderly folks have no obligation to compromise. 

Something you said here reminded me of my adult boys when they were kids. I sometimes feel so blessed to have a 16 year age gap between sets of kids because now I know what I should and shouldn't worry about. Those two boys had these two friends and the four of them together could tornado a house in a nano second. It was like a special talent. They would undo hours of house cleaning and never see it. It drove me crazy. They seemed to not see any mess right up until they graduated. Fast forward to now and all four boys are currently roommates in as 4 bedroom house. When they all decided to move in together for college I giggled to myself that it was going to be a boy den of doom. So color me shocked when they kept it immaculate. They all have cleaning rotation and get on each other for being messy. You could literally eat off the floor over there. So don't lose hope, I wasn't consistent at all with them when it came to training them toward cleanliness and yet something must have rubbed off. :)

[SereneHome]

3 hours ago, nixpix5 said:

Something you said here reminded me of my adult boys when they were kids. I sometimes feel so blessed to have a 16 year age gap between sets of kids because now I know what I should and shouldn't worry about. Those two boys had these two friends and the four of them together could tornado a house in a nano second. It was like a special talent. They would undo hours of house cleaning and never see it. It drove me crazy. They seemed to not see any mess right up until they graduated. Fast forward to now and all four boys are currently roommates in as 4 bedroom house. When they all decided to move in together for college I giggled to myself that it was going to be a boy den of doom. So color me shocked when they kept it immaculate. They all have cleaning rotation and get on each other for being messy. You could literally eat off the floor over there. So don't lose hope, I wasn't consistent at all with them when it came to training them toward cleanliness and yet something must have rubbed off. :)

Good for them!!!

[Alice]

I agree with others that they sound developmentally very normal. That’s not to say that it’s not good to teach them to help out around the house but I think it’s really normal for kids those ages to not “see” the mess and to not really think about the consequences of something like leaving out a new game and possibly losing pieces. They are kids...they live in the short term. 

We do a lot of what has been mentioned...
-Frequent reminding
-Joking when we have to remind them...I talk a lot about the dishwasher fairy or the towel fairy and wonder when she will visit again to put away the dishes left on the counter or the towel left on the floor. They know that means “pick up your stuff” but it sounds more friendly. 
-Reminding some more. 
-We don’t do chores but instead just try to model that we all work together to do what needs to be done. I let them pick what chores need to be done off a list when we have big cleaning days. For the day to day stuff we all help. As time goes on it gets more normal. 

Hang in there. Just in the past year or so, I’ve seen my now 14 year old start to do a lot more on his own without being asked. Not just his own stuff which he’s been pretty good about for awhile. But he will see me folding laundry and come in to help without being asked. Or he washed the dishes from an afternoon snack that his siblings had because he knew I was busy. He also still leaves out his own stuff all the time and is a work in progress. But it does get easier. You just have young kids. They are young, but there isn’t anything wrong with them.