I am not over-reacting. I am not! (foot stomping temper tantrum ahead)

[Butter]

10 minutes ago, Tsuga said:

It does say in the Declaration of Independence that we are endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights, and that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and that to secure these ends, governments have been instituted among men.

 

I was trying to be not specific and in doing so I failed in communicating.  Second amendment.  I know people who believe that God wants us to have guns and our right to possess guns is God-given.  These are the same people who believe God is a Republican (and some claim He hates Democrats) and that He told the writers *exactly* what to write when they created the Constitution (some say it is not just inspired by God, but actually he basically dictated it to them).

[SKL]

12 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I think the problem is this SS teacher is a person in a position of authority over the 15yo.  So it is not reasonable to expect the 15 to 'fight back' with a person in such a position. 

I guess I don't see SS teachers the same way.  It has always been completely optional in my experience whether a 15yo attends a SS class.  The SS teacher normally has no hold over a student's grades, career, or anything else of importance.

Also, the 15yo doesn't have to "fight back."  She could let the comments stand or delete them.  "Agree to disagree" is always a nice option.

[Tsuga]

15 minutes ago, Butter said:

I was trying to be not specific and in doing so I failed in communicating.  Second amendment.  I know people who believe that God wants us to have guns and our right to possess guns is God-given.  These are the same people who believe God is a Republican (and some claim He hates Democrats) and that He told the writers *exactly* what to write when they created the Constitution (some say it is not just inspired by God, but actually he basically dictated it to them).

I understood that is what you were referring to. Still, I'm just saying, that's a metaphysical question and I don't think that's outside the realm of normal beliefs. "The reason we have these written in law is that we want to respect god's law" or "nature's law" or "what is right"... that's something a lot of people believe. And yes it is very nebulous if you dig into it but the idea of absolute moral value being the inspiration for written law is in my opinion not crazy (even if I disagree). The exact connection between, how I know what god wants and how I turn that into law, that's more complicated. But just believing that the purpose of our laws is to support god's laws, that to me might be wrong but it's not insane.

The question of whether or not god inspired the writers of the Constitution as he did the writers of the Bible is a whole other thing because there are historical accounts that would call that belief into question. Like we have letters, multiple letters, and eyewitness accounts. We also have draft versions!

[Tsuga]

13 minutes ago, SKL said:

I guess I don't see SS teachers the same way.  It has always been completely optional in my experience whether a 15yo attends a SS class.  The SS teacher normally has no hold over a student's grades, career, or anything else of importance.

Also, the 15yo doesn't have to "fight back."  She could let the comments stand or delete them.  "Agree to disagree" is always a nice option.

I'd say heaven and hell are of paramount importance to the Christian.

You're dismissing the teachings of the church as inconsequential. Again, 10% of people's income is going to this endeavor, not to mention, it is supposed to support you in gaining entrance to eternity.

How is that inconsequential?

 

Edit: I agree that the teen here needs to just get off social media, period. My posts are directed at mom who is apparently part of this community.

[GoodGrief]

One of my now-young adult daughters went through a vocal social justice advocate phase. Another one went through an evangelical religious phase. They both learned that there are people who will read/hear their enthusiastic endorsements of their positions-of-the-moment and react with feedback in some form. The feedback is not always positive. People do have a stronger tendency to correct what they see as misinformation than to voice agreement. Those experiences are a life lesson, and probably a valuable one in this age of ever-present social media. Learning to listen to and discuss alternative viewpoints without immediately taking a defensive position is valuable as well, though I think it is okay to remove/block/screen people on social media who have a tendency to get reactive.

I'm not clear that what occurred was bullying. It might have been if it played out precisely as described.

[Scarlett]

19 minutes ago, SKL said:

I guess I don't see SS teachers the same way.  It has always been completely optional in my experience whether a 15yo attends a SS class.  The SS teacher normally has no hold over a student's grades, career, or anything else of importance.

Well, I certainly don't see a ss teacher as a person in a position of authority....because we don't do ss in my faith.  But apparently in religions that do ss it is a position of authority and this person is TEACHING religion to this child.  So yeah, it is important if religion is important to them.

[SKL]

4 minutes ago, Tsuga said:

I'd say heaven and hell are of paramount importance to the Christian.

You're dismissing the teachings of the church as inconsequential. Again, 10% of people's income is going to this endeavor, not to mention, it is supposed to support you in gaining entrance to eternity.

How is that inconsequential?

 

The SS teacher has no hold on God, and a 15yo should know that.  Also, aren't most SS teachers volunteers?

If the SS teacher's Bible verses made the 15yo wonder whether there are spiritual implications that she would not have otherwise thought of, that is fine.  At that age, the best thing is to hear and consider all kinds of ideas and decide which ones stand up to scrutiny.  It also raises the healthy question of what Bible verses really mean to us today.

Honestly, IMO, if a teen believes her SS teacher is something more powerful, more spiritual, or more influential with God than anyone else, that is a problem that needs to be addressed.

[Carol in Cal.]

4 minutes ago, SKL said:

The SS teacher has no hold on God, and a 15yo should know that.  Also, aren't most SS teachers volunteers?

 

As teachers of the faith, they have a grave responsibility to be utterly truthful in how they represent God, and in correctly distinguishing their representations as fact vs. opinion.  The millstone lingers in the background.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

It's very different to say that the founding fathers used Biblical principles to write the Constitution.  That still leaves a lot of debate but it is in the realm of opinion, rather than being an out and out falsehood.  I can have lively but tolerant debate with other Christians on things like that.  But dogmatism that leaves out any critical thinking is something that bugs me.  And would be a deal breaker for me when it comes to minors.  (It would be a deal breaker for a teacher of adult in many situations too but at least adults can think through the issues a bit better.) 

[Garga]

19 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

It's very different to say that the founding fathers used Biblical principles to write the Constitution.  That still leaves a lot of debate but it is in the realm of opinion, rather than being an out and out falsehood.  I can have lively but tolerant debate with other Christians on things like that.  But dogmatism that leaves out any critical thinking is something that bugs me.  And would be a deal breaker for me when it comes to minors.  (It would be a deal breaker for a teacher of adult in many situations too but at least adults can think through the issues a bit better.) 

At first, I wasn't convinced that what the OP wrote was "cyberbullying."  It sounded more like a disagreement over a subject where one person posted something politically controversial, and other other person responded back with something equally controversial.  

If the Sunday School teacher actually believed the girl was in spiritual error, then she may have felt compelled to respond.  Perhaps she chose to post it publicly instead of privately since the initial post was public and would have influenced people and she wanted to influence the same set of people with her "correct" information.

And when you told her she was a cyberbully, of course she reacted strongly. 

And I agree with the above, that many people will make a pretty strong argument that there are Biblical principles in the Constitution.  Without knowing exactly what the woman said, it's hard to tell if she was talking about how God inspired the Constitution from the principles in the bible that the Founding Fathers knew, or if she meant it literally that God "wrote" it.

But all that is negated by the over-the-top manner in which she responded to all of this in person, and how her friend wrote "cyberbully" on your post, indicating that she's talking about it to others in such a way that they feel safe to dig at you (vs talking about it with a friend in private to process what happened.)

 

So....at first, I was wondering if you were making this out to be much more than it was by calling "cyberbully!"  But from her noisy and aggressive reaction, you're correct to be very concerned. 

I would probably present this to whoever is over her in the hierarchy at the church.  Whoever supervises the Sunday School teachers.  But I think you should expect to have them want to hear her side of the story as well. 

 

[HS Mom in NC]

Yes, devoutly religious people who are passionate about their politics can have perfectly reasonable and  civil conversations with other Christians in their church who disagree.  I’ve been there, done that, holding the dissenting view and was treated with genuine kindness, respect and love.  (I’m a Libertarian in a congregation with passionate Republicans.)

A Christian perspective requires the use of Scripture as the standard, especially for someone teaching Sunday School at church.

1. Is she displaying the fruits of the spirit interacting with the kid and the parent online and in person? 

Galatians 5:22-23“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. “
Matthew 7:19^“ Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. ²⁰ Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.”
John 13:34-35  “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
Colossians 3:13”¹² Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, ¹³ bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. ¹⁴ And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. “

1.” First she accused me of bringing up a pampered snowflake. “

So she doesn’t respect parental authority over minors?  Sure, the teen could’ve gone directly, but a parent coming to another adult isn’t crazy when minors are involved in a polarizing dispute and the teacher is handing things badly.

2. “And the next thing I know she is in my personal space yelling at me, shaking her finger in my face and screaming things like, "I am going to have to excuse myself because you don't know how to handle things." And then not leaving.  And, "Don't you ever say the word cyberbully to me again." or my personal favorite, "I am never speaking to you or your children again!" 

This isn’t just bad Christian behavior, it’s bad adult behavior.  Seriously? And now she’s never speaking to a student in her class or the parent again?  This reaction she had to a parent wanting to discuss this issue is actually a red flag for some sort of mental instability, not just a spiritual issue.

3. Later that day she sent me a "sorry, not sorry" email where her basic defense was "I am not a bully; you are," because I talked to her at church. 

If she’s genuinely upset about a private venue, then why is she posting on someone’s social media?  And why yell in a conversation about in in person instead of saying, “Let’s talk about this in private at __________.” And why email to the husband?  And why discuss it with a crony and have the crony respond in a public venue? It’s utter nonsense.

4. “And that I am not a real Christian” 

Woah.  That’s a serious accusation to throw at someone requiring serious evidence. 

2. If she feels the need to confront because of sin, is she doing it the way scripture commands?

Matthew 18:15“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.”
Galatians 6:1 “Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.”

1. “Her Sunday School teacher posted several scriptures on dd's pictures as a chastisement”  That’s semi-public and not in person, so it’s a failure on the teacher’s part.

2. “She sent this email to Dh and asked him to forward it to me, saying my email in the directory was not valid.  I checked, not only is my email valid & working, but my email is the family email, she would have had to go through several more clicks to find dh's email. “ It’s not direct to the person involved so it’s a failure on the teacher’s part. “ 

So she’s lying now.  Why not call directly or wait to see her in person at church and say it directly in a private area instead of going through another person who isn’t directly involved?

3. "one bad Yelp review coming up!" and one of this woman's cronies commented, "Cyberbullying!"

Again we have her involving someone she should not have involved and it’s a public dig at what the OP tried to keep a private matter in a direct, in person conversation.  Another teacher fail.

3. Is she teaching sound doctrine?

James 3:1”Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.”
2 Timothy 4:3 “For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,”


1. “…and last week she told her Sunday School class that the Constitution was written by God. “ Even if she’s taking the “inspired by God” view  it requires very careful, explicit presentation, especially to teens who aren’t known for their grasp of nuance to make sure she hasn’t jumped into heresy.

2. Does the OP know she thinks God is  Republican because she hear the teacher say so?  It’s hard to know what someone else is thinking and it’s very risky to make assumptions, but if she has taken that view she’s moved into heresy.

[Reefgazer]

First, block the person on Instagram/FB and have your DD not deal with her outside of Sunday School.  Second, speak to whomever is up the food chain at church about this; it's inappropriate behavior for an adult leader and church representative.  Personally, I wouldn't even bother with the second point because I wouldn't give a flip what she think.  I would ignore it and her and move on.

 

[prairiewindmomma]

Oh my gosh. We've gone through a similar experience.  I thought it was just us, and then the individual created a bigger blow-up in the church community with a different individual and it created a kerfuffle of epic magnitude.

A few thoughts:

1. Go to your pastor/bishop/head of congregation and just recount the facts of what has played out.  Regardless of the political views of anyone at the table, the dynamic between teacher and youth are not ok.  I would emphasize that point, because who knows what your pastor/bishop/head of congregation's personal political beliefs are.

2. I would take the high road on this one and not respond.  It has the potential to become a cat fight and I'm guessing she's feeling defensive because she either thinks a. God is backing her on this one and you are all in need of repentance or b. she realizes she over reacted and has called her cronies to defend her by warping the story a bit to justify her bad behavior. In any event, engaging *at this point* is only going to result in her "winning".  

3. Sit and talk with your family about what you do when you bump into crazy.  Because, seriously, it's happening more often in my life as society becomes more divisive and vocal and ugly.  Some claim authority by twisting scriptures and words and throwing them at you like weapons. Regardless of how this particular situation plays out, I'm guessing this type of situation will come at you again.  

4. I put my teen through a logic course this year so we can discuss fallacies and formal logic.  Giving my teen words to articulate and talk through other's stupidity has been incredibly powerful for him.  

5. Keep the bazooka on stand by.  There are times when it's appropriate to hit the nuclear button....or to plan an exit strategy.

[Murphy101]

I think I must be a horrible person bc the only response I can muster for god is a republican is, "If God is a republican, then why did Jesus ride in on a donkey?" Smh

Just... the dumb is strong in way too many people.

While my 15 year olds have gone to the matonal March for life, they don't have social media.  Thank heavens.

I'm torn bc while I think the SS teacher was nutters rude, I also think they need to learn to handle the Internet exposure or be off it.

I think the kicker for me is this:

Someone in authority over a person, child or adult, being critical of their politics or social policy issues is very different than general friends and family and acquaintances commenting.

So if this had been her regular school teacher, I'd have both a problem with her being "friends" in FB and commenting in such a manner.  Because there's no way the student would still feel comfortable in that classroom under those conditions.  And my general policy wrt to FB friends is that people we work with or for are not friends.  There's professional sources to connected on that are more appropriate for work/school communication and quite frankly cover everyone's butts better in the long run.

I know many people don't follow these policies, but many employers and schools do require them for good reason.  It's just a good general policy.

I would discuss this with your dd and whoever is in charge of the programs for youth at the church too.  Because regardless, how that lady acted about a concerned parent talking to her about a student is beyond wachadoodle and she shouldn't be in that role if that's how she's going to be with any parent or student.

 

[mom@shiloh]

8 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Um, why on earth are you still at a church that teaches such idiocy? God wrote the constitution? God is a republican? Honestly, I'd be either taking all of this malarkey up with the pastor or I'd be leaving. Or both.

As the saying goes, you can't fix stupid.

The rest of the church may not share the views of this particular person, and in fact, may not have even known that these were her views until now. Don't jump ship because of one whacko.

[KungFuPanda]

She told your husband on you!  Did she think you'd get grounded?  ROFLOL

[Amber in SJ]

1 hour ago, KungFuPanda said:

She told your husband on you!  Did she think you'd get grounded?  ROFLOL

I think she might be trying to rescue him from my raging feminism.  Girl, please.  :)

Amber in SJ

[Amber in SJ]

To clear up a few things:

We are LDS (Mormons) so everyone from the Bishop of our ward to the nursery leaders is a volunteer.  An untrained volunteer.  I am also a Sunday School teacher (11 & 12 year olds) and I am given lesson manuals and strict instructions about not veering from approved materials.  The lesson that ended up with the comment about the Constitution being written by God went like this:

The instruction manual told the teacher to allow the students to role play situations where they would be tempted to do something they shouldn't and then think of responses.  The examples were trying illegal drugs, underage drinking, driving after drinking, cheating on tests/ homework at school, lying about grades, etc.  The teacher wrote down these examples on slips of paper and had the kids draw a slip and then act out the scenario and what would be a good response.  She added several political scenarios that were not in the lesson manual like "Your friend wants to get rid of the Constitution," and "Your friend wants to get rid of the Second Amendment." and "Your friend speaks disrespectfully about legally elected government officials, like the President."  Apparently the kids didn't really know what to do about the political situations so they said things like, "I guess you can think what you want," and the teacher got more and more upset until she said, "You can't go against the Constitution because God wrote the Constitution!"  Also, yes, I was paraphrasing when I said, she said God is a Republican.  The LDS church does not believe God is a Republican.  Or a Democrat, for that matter.

I will send an email to the Sunday School President about this weirdness, but other than reminding all the teachers to stick to the approved materials & to not use personal political opinions in teaching settings, I doubt anything will happen.

 Because we are LDS, there really is no jumping ship for another congregation unless I disagree with the church's doctrine and not just this woman's battyness.  

The scripture she posted on dd's Instagram page was one that is specific to Mormons; Article of Faith 12 "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers and magistrates, and obeying honoring and sustaining the law." It was meant as a rebuke that dd was doing something against the laws of the country as well as God's law, which is incorrect, because the political rally was completely legal. As an adult and a Sunday School teacher she was absolutely trying to use her authority and portray her opinion as the church's and by extension God's opinion.  That is inappropriate. 

She is not the Pastor's wife, or Bishop's wife.

I have had in depth conversations with my kids about social media.  They know that when someone is rude on their pages their choices are delete or debate.  Dd decided to delete, and didn't want any more contact.  Because my older dd was bullied (by the boys in her class) for years with no adult intervention, I didn't want this situation to continue.  I made the choice to talk to this adult as a fellow adult and I tried to give her the benefit of the doubt that she wasn't intending to hurt dd.  

As an adult that has plenty of interaction with kids/ teens IRL, I don't friend them on social media.  The few young adults who are friends of my young adult children that I am friends with on social media, I rarely interact with other than to like photos or to make encouraging comments.  That is it.  

I do not intend to engage further.  I apologized for making a poor choice of venue in talking to her at church and that will be the end of it on my part.  I have unfriended the one person who made the comment on my facebook page without making my carefully crafted rebuttal about why she is wrong but I understand that facebook is difficult for the older generation.   That would be using a bazooka to swat a fly.

I appreciate everyone's responses because it reaffirms my faith that opinions can be discussed without dramatics & fingers shaking in faces.  Thanks for being my virtual village of sanity when my RL village goes a little bonkers and I have to wonder if it is me that is the crazy one :)

Amber in SJ

[Amber in SJ]

7 hours ago, SKL said:

How would you feel if this teacher met this 15yo at the rally as a counter-protester?  Carrying a big sign containing Bible verses?

This wouldn't bother me at all.  I have no problem with people expressing their political opinion. My problem was her taking her opinion to my daughter's page in rebuke or chastisement.  

If the teacher posted pictures on her own page of herself at a rally and dd posted a scripture that was obviously intended to dissent with the teacher's opinion then dd would be in the wrong. That is rude, unkind and poor social media etiquette.  Because dd is 15 her criticism would not have the same weight to an adult as criticism from an adult Sunday School teacher to a 15 year old.

Amber in SJ

 

[prairiewindmomma]

58 minutes ago, Amber in SJ said:

To clear up a few things:

We are LDS (Mormons) so everyone from the Bishop of our ward to the nursery leaders is a volunteer.  An untrained volunteer.  I am also a Sunday School teacher (11 & 12 year olds) and I am given lesson manuals and strict instructions about not veering from approved materials.  The lesson that ended up with the comment about the Constitution being written by God went like this:

The instruction manual told the teacher to allow the students to role play situations where they would be tempted to do something they shouldn't and then think of responses.  The examples were trying illegal drugs, underage drinking, driving after drinking, cheating on tests/ homework at school, lying about grades, etc.  The teacher wrote down these examples on slips of paper and had the kids draw a slip and then act out the scenario and what would be a good response.  She added several political scenarios that were not in the lesson manual like "Your friend wants to get rid of the Constitution," and "Your friend wants to get rid of the Second Amendment." and "Your friend speaks disrespectfully about legally elected government officials, like the President."  Apparently the kids didn't really know what to do about the political situations so they said things like, "I guess you can think what you want," and the teacher got more and more upset until she said, "You can't go against the Constitution because God wrote the Constitution!"  Also, yes, I was paraphrasing when I said, she said God is a Republican.  The LDS church does not believe God is a Republican.  Or a Democrat, for that matter.

I will send an email to the Sunday School President about this weirdness, but other than reminding all the teachers to stick to the approved materials & to not use personal political opinions in teaching settings, I doubt anything will happen.

 Because we are LDS, there really is no jumping ship for another congregation unless I disagree with the church's doctrine and not just this woman's battyness.  

The scripture she posted on dd's Instagram page was one that is specific to Mormons; Article of Faith 12 "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers and magistrates, and obeying honoring and sustaining the law." It was meant as a rebuke that dd was doing something against the laws of the country as well as God's law, which is incorrect, because the political rally was completely legal. As an adult and a Sunday School teacher she was absolutely trying to use her authority and portray her opinion as the church's and by extension God's opinion.  That is inappropriate. 

She is not the Pastor's wife, or Bishop's wife.

I have had in depth conversations with my kids about social media.  They know that when someone is rude on their pages their choices are delete or debate.  Dd decided to delete, and didn't want any more contact.  Because my older dd was bullied (by the boys in her class) for years with no adult intervention, I didn't want this situation to continue.  I made the choice to talk to this adult as a fellow adult and I tried to give her the benefit of the doubt that she wasn't intending to hurt dd.  

As an adult that has plenty of interaction with kids/ teens IRL, I don't friend them on social media.  The few young adults who are friends of my young adult children that I am friends with on social media, I rarely interact with other than to like photos or to make encouraging comments.  That is it.  

I do not intend to engage further.  I apologized for making a poor choice of venue in talking to her at church and that will be the end of it on my part.  I have unfriended the one person who made the comment on my facebook page without making my carefully crafted rebuttal about why she is wrong but I understand that facebook is difficult for the older generation.   That would be using a bazooka to swat a fly.

I appreciate everyone's responses because it reaffirms my faith that opinions can be discussed without dramatics & fingers shaking in faces.  Thanks for being my virtual village of sanity when my RL village goes a little bonkers and I have to wonder if it is me that is the crazy one :)

Amber in SJ

 

So, I am also teaching in youth sunday school.  What lesson was she teaching? I'm thinking about the monthly lesson topics from this year and I can't come up with any way in which she was using any of the topics or suggested resource materials.  March's topic was the atonement of Jesus Christ. If I was feeling snarky, I'd perhaps suggest she read the section from March's source materials on relying on the Savior's grace to help in becoming a better teacher. But, being snarky probably isn't helpful.  

Sorry you're dealing with the crazy.

[Tsuga]

10 hours ago, SKL said:

How would you feel if this teacher met this 15yo at the rally as a counter-protester?  Carrying a big sign containing Bible verses?

I'm okay with that. I think social media is a unique space for interaction which is prone to certain types of abuse.

 

In addition, active participation in protest is not something I oppose even on moral grounds. Whereas sitting on your butt criticizing someone else for protesting is morally weak.

But again--it is the power relationship here, not the disagreement, I am opposed to.

[ktgrok]

That you are in a church with a set teaching and such sounds better than what I imagined. Seems it really is one wackadoodle and I hope she is counseled to stop it with the political stuff!

[Tsuga]

4 hours ago, Amber in SJ said:

To clear up a few things:

We are LDS (Mormons) so everyone from the Bishop of our ward to the nursery leaders is a volunteer.  An untrained volunteer.  I am also a Sunday School teacher (11 & 12 year olds) and I am given lesson manuals and strict instructions about not veering from approved materials.  The lesson that ended up with the comment about the Constitution being written by God went like this:

The instruction manual told the teacher to allow the students to role play situations where they would be tempted to do something they shouldn't and then think of responses.  The examples were trying illegal drugs, underage drinking, driving after drinking, cheating on tests/ homework at school, lying about grades, etc.  The teacher wrote down these examples on slips of paper and had the kids draw a slip and then act out the scenario and what would be a good response.  She added several political scenarios that were not in the lesson manual like "Your friend wants to get rid of the Constitution," and "Your friend wants to get rid of the Second Amendment." and "Your friend speaks disrespectfully about legally elected government officials, like the President."  Apparently the kids didn't really know what to do about the political situations so they said things like, "I guess you can think what you want," and the teacher got more and more upset until she said, "You can't go against the Constitution because God wrote the Constitution!"  Also, yes, I was paraphrasing when I said, she said God is a Republican.  The LDS church does not believe God is a Republican.  Or a Democrat, for that matter.

Wow, it's hard to imagine getting so far out of line but she managed somehow!

 

Quote

I will send an email to the Sunday School President about this weirdness, but other than reminding all the teachers to stick to the approved materials & to not use personal political opinions in teaching settings, I doubt anything will happen.

 Because we are LDS, there really is no jumping ship for another congregation unless I disagree with the church's doctrine and not just this woman's battyness.  

That's too bad. That's one thing about LDS--I know more than one person who I know in their personal life is completely unfit for any type of leadership AT ALL in anything, much less spiritual leadership, and they are leaders of young people in the church. There are many good things about the structure but they need more training and oversight of young and/or stupid volunteers.

Quote

The scripture she posted on dd's Instagram page was one that is specific to Mormons; Article of Faith 12 "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers and magistrates, and obeying honoring and sustaining the law." It was meant as a rebuke that dd was doing something against the laws of the country as well as God's law, which is incorrect, because the political rally was completely legal. As an adult and a Sunday School teacher she was absolutely trying to use her authority and portray her opinion as the church's and by extension God's opinion.  That is inappropriate. 

It is the same as "give to Caesar" and the verse on God's law. Some believe this means that civil disobedience is un-Christian. But many others point out that Jesus himself was technically breaking Roman laws and that's how he got crucified in the end. I guess it's debatable but for me, the issue is, you don't engage in this on partisan issues with minors. Hell, I don't even talk politics with my stepdaughter's boyfriend. 

Quote

I appreciate everyone's responses because it reaffirms my faith that opinions can be discussed without dramatics & fingers shaking in faces.  Thanks for being my virtual village of sanity when my RL village goes a little bonkers and I have to wonder if it is me that is the crazy one :)

Amber in SJ

Very sorry your ward does not provide that for you. :( I know many amazing people in the LDS church in other areas and I know it doesn't have to be that way. I hope someday you can find a place where there are not so many superficially "Christian" people there!

 

[Tsuga]

11 hours ago, SKL said:

The SS teacher has no hold on God, and a 15yo should know that.  Also, aren't most SS teachers volunteers?

If the SS teacher's Bible verses made the 15yo wonder whether there are spiritual implications that she would not have otherwise thought of, that is fine.  At that age, the best thing is to hear and consider all kinds of ideas and decide which ones stand up to scrutiny.  It also raises the healthy question of what Bible verses really mean to us today.

Honestly, IMO, if a teen believes her SS teacher is something more powerful, more spiritual, or more influential with God than anyone else, that is a problem that needs to be addressed.

I think it's not a question of explicit belief that someone is more powerful with god, and more an implicit attention to authority that is the problem. If it were not for the implied authority of extremely questionable church leaders, our country would be in a very different place right now. People admire the guy or gal at the front of the room. CHildren follow elders to an extent. That is an almost biological drive.

It's great to call for diversity of opinion but that's not the type of influence this teacher is seeking to exert.

[marbel]

21 hours ago, SKL said:

 

Quote

 

Ah, I didn't read far enough and see that my points have already been discussed in detail.  And now I messed up the quoting and can't fix it.  Arrgh.  Early morning posting attempts...   

[regentrude]

12 hours ago, Amber in SJ said:

The instruction manual told the teacher to allow the students to role play situations where they would be tempted to do something they shouldn't and then think of responses.  The examples were trying illegal drugs, underage drinking, driving after drinking, cheating on tests/ homework at school, lying about grades, etc.  The teacher wrote down these examples on slips of paper and had the kids draw a slip and then act out the scenario and what would be a good response.  She added several political scenarios that were not in the lesson manual like "Your friend wants to get rid of the Constitution," and "Your friend wants to get rid of the Second Amendment." and "Your friend speaks disrespectfully about legally elected government officials, like the President."  

And the teacher obviously doesn't see the irony here -  the constitution protects a person's right to speaking disrespectfully about legally elected government officials.

[Murphy101]

16 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

She told your husband on you!  Did she think you'd get grounded?  ROFLOL

Maybe even spanked!

[Amber in SJ]

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

And the teacher obviously doesn't see the irony here -  the constitution protects a person's right to speaking disrespectfully about legally elected government officials.

Actually this person & I had a short conversation at church in the morning before she posted on dd's pictures.  While setting up chairs for choir practice she remarked to me that she saw the pictures of our attendance at the political rally and asked me how it was.  Knowing her particular political leanings to be opposite mine I said it was very wet and rainy.  She asked me several more questions about if there were any government officials who attended and if the police were there "manning the barricades."  I said yes, the mayor spoke, several district representatives & our senator spoke very briefly.  There were no barricades.  I did see 2 motorcycle police officers at the food trucks, but they might have just been there for lunch.  She asked me how many people I thought were in attendance & I gave her the rough estimate I had heard on the news.  She then said,

"Hmmmmm.  I wonder if we could get that many people to show up to protect the Constitution, instead of tearing it down?"

to which I replied, "Since we were there exercising our constitutionally guaranteed rights to free speech and peaceful assembly, I guess you could say we were all there in support of the Constitution."

And then she went home and slapped a scriptural rebuke on dd's pictures, but nothing on mine.

Amber in SJ

[Bluegoat]

She sounds like one of those people who can't quite understand that good rational people can see things different ways, or that two things can be true at the same time.  Like - if she thinks X idea would be unconstitutional, advocating for it must also be unconstitutional.

Some people seem to be like that - very concrete.  

[catz]

1 hour ago, Amber in SJ said:

Actually this person & I had a short conversation at church in the morning before she posted on dd's pictures.  While setting up chairs for choir practice she remarked to me that she saw the pictures of our attendance at the political rally and asked me how it was.  Knowing her particular political leanings to be opposite mine I said it was very wet and rainy.  She asked me several more questions about if there were any government officials who attended and if the police were there "manning the barricades."  I said yes, the mayor spoke, several district representatives & our senator spoke very briefly.  There were no barricades.  I did see 2 motorcycle police officers at the food trucks, but they might have just been there for lunch.  She asked me how many people I thought were in attendance & I gave her the rough estimate I had heard on the news.  She then said,

"Hmmmmm.  I wonder if we could get that many people to show up to protect the Constitution, instead of tearing it down?"

to which I replied, "Since we were there exercising our constitutionally guaranteed rights to free speech and peaceful assembly, I guess you could say we were all there in support of the Constitution."

And then she went home and slapped a scriptural rebuke on dd's pictures, but nothing on mine.

Amber in SJ

That's even more obnoxious.  Wow.  

 

[Butter]

17 hours ago, Amber in SJ said:

The instruction manual told the teacher to allow the students to role play situations where they would be tempted to do something they shouldn't and then think of responses.  The examples were trying illegal drugs, underage drinking, driving after drinking, cheating on tests/ homework at school, lying about grades, etc.  The teacher wrote down these examples on slips of paper and had the kids draw a slip and then act out the scenario and what would be a good response.  She added several political scenarios that were not in the lesson manual like "Your friend wants to get rid of the Constitution," and "Your friend wants to get rid of the Second Amendment." and "Your friend speaks disrespectfully about legally elected government officials, like the President."  Apparently the kids didn't really know what to do about the political situations so they said things like, "I guess you can think what you want," and the teacher got more and more upset until she said, "You can't go against the Constitution because God wrote the Constitution!"  Also, yes, I was paraphrasing when I said, she said God is a Republican.  The LDS church does not believe God is a Republican.  Or a Democrat, for that matter.

<snip> 

The scripture she posted on dd's Instagram page was one that is specific to Mormons; Article of Faith 12 "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers and magistrates, and obeying honoring and sustaining the law." It was meant as a rebuke that dd was doing something against the laws of the country as well as God's law, which is incorrect, because the political rally was completely legal. As an adult and a Sunday School teacher she was absolutely trying to use her authority and portray her opinion as the church's and by extension God's opinion.  That is inappropriate. 

<snip again>

5

The political things she added are extremely inappropriate.  Our church is politically neutral.  Period.  As for "your friend wants to get rid of the second amendment," well, there's actual a path to do so (for any amendment).  And it's laid out in the Constitution.  I mean, it's not likely, but it's literally there.  So not only is she being inappropriate in teaching Sunday School, she's not accurate when it comes to how the government works either.

My father (who has been in a bishopric) said this should go to the Bishop if the Sunday School President doesn't do anything more than remind them to stick to the lesson guidance.

She is using/interpreting the 12th Article of Faith wrong.  The first amendment guarantees the right to peaceably assemble.  Clearly, she is of the opinion that that right is only given if you are assembling for a reason she agrees with.  She is wrong, however.  What you and your daughters did was exercising your right according to the first amendment, part of that Constitution she seems to love so much, and so you were 100% following the 12th Article of Faith.

I am so sorry.

[kitten18]

2 hours ago, Amber in SJ said:

Actually this person & I had a short conversation at church in the morning before she posted on dd's pictures.  While setting up chairs for choir practice she remarked to me that she saw the pictures of our attendance at the political rally and asked me how it was.  Knowing her particular political leanings to be opposite mine I said it was very wet and rainy.  She asked me several more questions about if there were any government officials who attended and if the police were there "manning the barricades."  I said yes, the mayor spoke, several district representatives & our senator spoke very briefly.  There were no barricades.  I did see 2 motorcycle police officers at the food trucks, but they might have just been there for lunch.  She asked me how many people I thought were in attendance & I gave her the rough estimate I had heard on the news.  She then said,

"Hmmmmm.  I wonder if we could get that many people to show up to protect the Constitution, instead of tearing it down?"

to which I replied, "Since we were there exercising our constitutionally guaranteed rights to free speech and peaceful assembly, I guess you could say we were all there in support of the Constitution."

And then she went home and slapped a scriptural rebuke on dd's pictures, but nothing on mine.

Amber in SJ

And that points toward the bullying.

It seems like she didn’t want to directly confront You, but she felt safe being confrontational on your daughter’s account. 

[SKL]

Based on your latest post, she has a very strange way of communicating with people.  She disagrees with you and then talks to your daughter; you bring it back face-to-face and she responds to your husband.  I also agree that what she is focusing on in SS is wrong and she needs to be corrected by her boss.  I actually think she has mental problems and should not be teaching at all.  Not sure how that would work though.

[Scarlett]

2 hours ago, Amber in SJ said:

Actually this person & I had a short conversation at church in the morning before she posted on dd's pictures.  While setting up chairs for choir practice she remarked to me that she saw the pictures of our attendance at the political rally and asked me how it was.  Knowing her particular political leanings to be opposite mine I said it was very wet and rainy.  She asked me several more questions about if there were any government officials who attended and if the police were there "manning the barricades."  I said yes, the mayor spoke, several district representatives & our senator spoke very briefly.  There were no barricades.  I did see 2 motorcycle police officers at the food trucks, but they might have just been there for lunch.  She asked me how many people I thought were in attendance & I gave her the rough estimate I had heard on the news.  She then said,

"Hmmmmm.  I wonder if we could get that many people to show up to protect the Constitution, instead of tearing it down?"

to which I replied, "Since we were there exercising our constitutionally guaranteed rights to free speech and peaceful assembly, I guess you could say we were all there in support of the Constitution."

And then she went home and slapped a scriptural rebuke on dd's pictures, but nothing on mine.

Amber in SJ

I wish we had a 'shocking' emoticon.  Because wow.  

Definitely a bully.