PSA - make sure you have a true safety school.

[Ann.without.an.e]

I feel like so many moms (including myself) have stressed this over and over again but we still hear the saddest stories.  I share the following out of love for your dc, not out of judgement.  I am definitely not a perfect person.  I sought help here and I heeded the advice of others.  

You cannot guarantee admissions to a full need met school or a competitive school, ever.  Perfect test score?  nope, not a guarantee. Perfect gpa?  definitely not a guarantee.  Insert whatever stellar thing you might want here and it isn't a guarantee.  I have a friend in this very situation right now and I feel so bad for her dd.  She asked me in the fall what I thought about their school list and I said "what is your safety school?"  She rambled off a few small, expensive schools and, knowing their financial situation, I said "those aren't safe financially".  She was adamant that her dd would get a full merit offer (or at least close) to one of these schools or that her dd would get into at least one of her need met options.  Her dd got into zero need met schools and her merit packages from the other schools are simply not enough. They would need to bury themselves in debt.  This makes me sick to my stomach because just one or two state schools as a back up plan would have solved this completely - her daughter would have probably gotten into the honors program even.  But now they have zero options for the fall. And I need to vent somewhere because I am honestly a little mad at her because I stressed this to her so much.  She kept pointing to the average test score and gpa range for the schools "see, she's right in the middle".   I could not talk sense into this mom so I had to let it go.

My dd had a great resume but she applied to two state schools who had average test scores and gpa ranges well below hers.  Don't be too risky in this process.  Have a safety.

Vent over...thank you for listening.  

 

[dirty ethel rackham]

Amen to that.  None of my kids applied to academic reach schools because we knew they needed to be in the upper quartile of admitted students in order to have any hope of a decent aid package.  Even then, we had a couple of true financial safeties (like for a totally unforeseen financial catastrophe.)

[regentrude]

20 minutes ago, Attolia said:

This makes me sick to my stomach because just one or two state schools as a back up plan would have solved this completely - her daughter would have probably gotten into the honors program even.  But now they have zero options for the fall.

Aren't there colleges that still accept applicants for this fall?

[Ann.without.an.e]

25 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Aren't there colleges that still accept applicants for this fall?

Yes ma'am, but in this state that is getting fewer and fewer and her dd doesn't want to go to those schools (yes, there are some other issues here as you can see).  The one or two schools that they were depending on this for changed their policy for this application period and the mom and student didn't realize it had changed so they are no longer back ups.  

[chiguirre]

Are there any CC to state school guaranteed transfer programs available? It might not be their first or second choice but it would work...

[JanetC]

Kids' "I don't want to go there" attitudes (often picked up from the parents) are a real problem in picking safety schools and being willing to enroll in them if that's how admissions decisions play out. The resistance to safety schools can be about "the people who go there aren't good enough for me (or my kid)."

Community college should always be an option to the very last minute. Your friend's DD can attend one that feeds to a more desirable state campus.

 

[freesia]

Agree. It is so hard when you see a train wreck coming and the person won't listen. I have never, ever figured out how to handle this.  I guess it falls under people get to make their own mistakes.

And even full need met schools often have their own version of "full need."  The full need, very selective school my ds got into recalculated our need to be $4000 less than our already crazy EFC.  Even though he was in the highest quatrile, so many other students are so talented there as well (so the next quatrile is close).  He got some merit, but not enough. Fortunately, he has a less flashy, but good (great honors) school he loves and will be attending.

And we knew in time about the school he is attending so we didn't need to apply for our nearest state school which would have been affordable if he commuted.

So, yes, have a financial back-up that you love.  If you, or your child, look down on schools other than the tippy-top, re-evaluate that attitude quickly. The admissions picture and cost of college is beyond insane now (in case you haven't checked the very selective schools are now around $70,000!).  Kids who go to less selective schools have great lives, too.

 

[catz]

YES!  Even think in terms of imagining the worst happens - loss of employment, death of parent, long term illness.  Know and love and embrace thy academic AND financial safety!

My kid is dual enrolling at a urban public community college.  All his classes are small and all his excellent teachers hold PhDs.    Some are teaching adjunct as professors at the 60K privates across town.  Credits transfer to the state flagship easily and even some of the privates.   They have an honors program.  It's a much more impressive program than I was expecting.  

[ScoutTN]

Sad. Foolish. Maybe a gap year will be helpful for this student and her parents.

My high school (a New England boarding school) required 2 safeties, 2 mid level and 2 reach applications. Very helpful. 

 

 

 

[katilac]

Preach! 

I say this again and again and again, along with my mantra of "it's harder to get significant scholarships than you think, and nearly impossible to get a full ride." 

Along with: you need to know what college costs, and you need to know what financial aid you might be eligible for. There are some local homeschool moms who thought their kids would have no problem going to the local uni, because they were low income and surely would get a Pell grant. They were surprised as heck to hear how low income you have to be and how low the highest Pell grant is. They had no idea that "Pell eligible" could mean as little as $600. They really had/have the idea that good grades, a decent ACT score, and a Pell grant were going to pay everything for their kids. 

Another PSA: people are rarely thankful to you for pointing out this information, even when it saves their ass. Nonetheless, I feel too guilty to not keep trying, for the sake of the kids. 

[brehon]

I’ve always heard and believed the mantra to have at least one academic and financial safety. My eldest is a sophomore and knows that his ability to attend university at all is dependent on earning scholarships. My problem is that we haven’t found a financial safety.

My kid is really smart, but not an academic or test-taking superstar. He won’t earn full-ride or full-tuition scholarships anywhere. He certainly could go to the local community college, but we would be hard pressed to pay for full-time attendance there, too. Unfortunately, my salary precludes most financial aid even when the number of dependents is accounted for. 

I guess my question is *how* does one find a financial safety when one cannot afford anything? Or maybe my understanding of “financial safety” is inaccurate. Sorry; I’m kvetching. I stay up at night worrying about this. 

[Lanny]

OP you tried.  That was all that you could do and you did it.  There is a story about "you can lead a Horse to water, but you cannot make the Horse drink the water". There was nothing else that you could have done and you should be content, knowing that you tried your best to explain the risk to them.

[RootAnn]

1 hour ago, brehon said:

I’ve always heard and believed the mantra to have at least one academic and financial safety. My eldest is a sophomore and knows that his ability to attend university at all is dependent on earning scholarships. My problem is that we haven’t found a financial safety.

My kid is really smart, but not an academic or test-taking superstar. He won’t earn full-ride or full-tuition scholarships anywhere. He certainly could go to the local community college, but we would be hard pressed to pay for full-time attendance there, too. Unfortunately, my salary precludes most financial aid even when the number of dependents is accounted for. 

I guess my question is *how* does one find a financial safety when one cannot afford anything? Or maybe my understanding of “financial safety” is inaccurate. Sorry; I’m kvetching. I stay up at night worrying about this. 

Living at home & commuting to the local state college will likely by my dd#2's financial safety. She's super talented, but not very academic and won't likely test high enough to earn much in terms of test-based scholarships. However, she might be able to get a small art scholarship that pays for books and some local $$ to pick up fees. She'll be left with tuition and just live at home. That's her likely financial safety picture.

My dd#1 tests well and has really turned up the juice on her academics, so the small out-of-state college she's looking at is just barely affordable for us with just the automatic merit awards they give. (She'll just have to worry about keeping her GPA up and doing the mandatory service requirements they expect of their scholarship kids.) And, after her freshman year, she can apply for departmental scholarships. So, she has an academic/financial safety if none of the bigger (but lower ranked) schools come in with the large merit awards she's hoping for.

[katilac]

1 hour ago, brehon said:

 I guess my question is *how* does one find a financial safety when one cannot afford anything? Or maybe my understanding of “financial safety” is inaccurate.  

 

 

No, your understanding is accurate. Your son's financial safety might have to be part-time at the community college.  

Don't guess about anything, though. Just as some people overestimate scholarships and expenses, others underestimate them. You seem to know the cost of the local CC, do you know if they offer scholarships? Many do, and they generally require lower scores than those at university. Do you know if they have a dual enrollment program? Even if it is at full price, taking some classes over the next two years would spread out the cost.  

Look up the cost at the local uni, and look up their scholarships (of course this can change over several years, so keep checking). Your son should take a practice ACT now if he hasn't, so you get a rough idea (keeping in mind that another year of math and some test prep can boost that score a good bit). Some schools have scholarships for good but not great scores; not full tuition for sure, but possibly enough to make it affordable. Start looking now for any local scholarships he might be eligible for, they are not always intended for tippy top students only. 

Basically, what are the potential costs? CC, uni, at home, dorm, full time, part time, all the things. Then, what are the potential sources of payment? High school job, college job, x amount of help from parents, scholarships, student loan. 

If you have some money to put aside, I'd be looking at a 529 or similar plan. Even small amounts put away over 2+ years will add up. 

Once you have some of this information, sit down with your son and discuss it. He needs to know what is and isn't likely to be possible, and how much of the deal is going to up to him. He might choose to start working now, even odd jobs, to save money and increase his chances of going full-time the first year. He might want to go part-time and work more hours. If he has gift-giving relatives, they might be happy to contribute to a 529 if that is what he wants. 

Of course, these are not all decisions that he has to make right now, but he needs to be aware. Not just aware in general that there isn't a lot of money for college, but specifically aware of the probable costs of various options. 

[teachermom2834]

2 hours ago, brehon said:

I’ve always heard and believed the mantra to have at least one academic and financial safety. My eldest is a sophomore and knows that his ability to attend university at all is dependent on earning scholarships. My problem is that we haven’t found a financial safety.

My kid is really smart, but not an academic or test-taking superstar. He won’t earn full-ride or full-tuition scholarships anywhere. He certainly could go to the local community college, but we would be hard pressed to pay for full-time attendance there, too. Unfortunately, my salary precludes most financial aid even when the number of dependents is accounted for. 

I guess my question is *how* does one find a financial safety when one cannot afford anything? Or maybe my understanding of “financial safety” is inaccurate. Sorry; I’m kvetching. I stay up at night worrying about this. 

I know it is a sometimes unpopular opinion but I do think there are circumstances in which taking the federal student loans (max $5500 for freshman year) makes sense for a student who desires college and who can benefit from having a degree.  My kids are college ready and motivated and quite honestly they are "book smart". They are not necessarily geared for trades or other non-degreed paths. For them it has made sense to take the federal loans. They have also worked as much as possible during the summers. They have been able to earn $7000-8000 per year. So, before help from us they have about $13,000 to work with.  So far my oldest two have worked out being able to go away to school on this budget (with some scholarships). They both ended up with a handful of options they could make work. Not dream schools. Not highly ranked schools. But good schools that make sense and work for them. 

Dh and I help here and there and are definitely here to help in crisis and to fill gaps but the bulk of the financing is falling on the kids (so far). 

Just a suggestion when it seems there is no hope financially. Sometimes people forget the students can carry some of the load. 

*also very important to note that this approach requires researching and applying to schools that the bottom line after scholarships is pretty low.*   Summer earnings and federal loans are going to leave most students gapped at most places. This approach won't work if substantial merit aid isn't forthcoming. This isn't a solution to how to afford attending the college of choice. It's a suggestion to how to find a way when it looks like there is no way. 

[katilac]

1 minute ago, teachermom2834 said:

I know it is a sometimes unpopular opinion but I do think there are circumstances in which taking the federal student loans (max $5500 for freshman year) makes sense for a student who desires college and who can benefit from having a degree.   

 

 

I absolutely agree. I could not have gone to college without federal loans. 

[catz]

I think the federal loans are a great option.  But I think borrowing more than that is usually a mistake, especially for the student.  And often for the parent if they have significant other debt.  

[JanetC]

A quick way to estimate if financial aid will be enough is to look up the school's net price calculator 

https://collegecost.ed.gov/netpricecenter.aspx

Many schools ask about grades and test scores and estimate your merit aid. 

If your budget is really limited, the bare bones options are 

- a commute from home school where you don't pay room and board

- community college while working part time to save up for the last two years of classes at a state school

- for the brilliant, a school that gives a full ride to national merit finalists or those with near-perfect stats 

If  those are the choices, its better to have that discussion up front before your child builds a college list.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

7 hours ago, teachermom2834 said:

I know it is a sometimes unpopular opinion but I do think there are circumstances in which taking the federal student loans (max $5500 for freshman year) makes sense for a student who desires college and who can benefit from having a degree.  My kids are college ready and motivated and quite honestly they are "book smart". They are not necessarily geared for trades or other non-degreed paths. For them it has made sense to take the federal loans. They have also worked as much as possible during the summers. They have been able to earn $7000-8000 per year. So, before help from us they have about $13,000 to work with.  So far my oldest two have worked out being able to go away to school on this budget (with some scholarships). They both ended up with a handful of options they could make work. Not dream schools. Not highly ranked schools. But good schools that make sense and work for them. 

Dh and I help here and there and are definitely here to help in crisis and to fill gaps but the bulk of the financing is falling on the kids (so far). 

Just a suggestion when it seems there is no hope financially. Sometimes people forget the students can carry some of the load. 

*also very important to note that this approach requires researching and applying to schools that the bottom line after scholarships is pretty low.*   Summer earnings and federal loans are going to leave most students gapped at most places. This approach won't work if substantial merit aid isn't forthcoming. This isn't a solution to how to afford attending the college of choice. It's a suggestion to how to find a way when it looks like there is no way. 

I think that a well-informed used of loans can make sense.  I think some of the cases of high loan debt that make for good newspaper copy were not well-considered (high cost school for a degree with a lower income return for example).

[8filltheheart]

When I give my college workshops, I cover the full spectrum of college options, what it takes to be admitted at different levels, what the odds are of being admitted even if you have "everything," and costs. I emphasize needing affordable options AND acceptance.

FWIW, I also share that they should investigate what individual schools offer: honors colleges, specialized opportunities for different majors, internships/co-ops, undergrad research, career conferences, etc. I spend quite a bit of time discussing how students should utilize the opportunities offered on their campus and be involved beyond just attending class opens doors.  I share stories about students who have taken full advantage of their UG U's resources and have gone on to top grad schools, careers, etc. 

Safety school does not mean lesser or limited future.  That is what families need to know.

[ScoutTN]

3 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

When I give my college workshops, I cover the full spectrum of college options, what it takes to be admitted at different levels, what the odds are of being admitted even if you have "everything," and costs. I emphasize needing affordable options AND acceptance.

FWIW, I also share that they should investigate what individual schools offer: honors colleges, specialized opportunities for different majors, internships/co-ops, undergrad research, career conferences, etc. I spend quite a bit of time discussing how students should utilize the opportunities offered on their campus and be involved beyond just attending class opens doors.  I share stories about students who have taken full advantage of their UG U's resources and have gone on to top grad schools, careers, etc. 

Safety school does not mean lesser or limited future.  That is what families need to know.

8, in a few years, when college is looming for my oldest, I want to come to one of your workshops! ;)

[Ann.without.an.e]

21 hours ago, chiguirre said:

Are there any CC to state school guaranteed transfer programs available? It might not be their first or second choice but it would work...

 

They are looking to options for CC and also uni's with later admissions times.  

21 hours ago, JanetC said:

Kids' "I don't want to go there" attitudes (often picked up from the parents) are a real problem in picking safety schools and being willing to enroll in them if that's how admissions decisions play out. The resistance to safety schools can be about "the people who go there aren't good enough for me (or my kid)."

Community college should always be an option to the very last minute. Your friend's DD can attend one that feeds to a more desirable state campus.

 

 

This is a huge factor, honestly.  Her girl is too good for the local uni or cc.  :eyeroll:  My dd wasn't and her test scores were higher and her gpa was much stronger than this girl's.  I don't know, beats me.  

 

20 hours ago, ScoutTN said:

Sad. Foolish. Maybe a gap year will be helpful for this student and her parents.

My high school (a New England boarding school) required 2 safeties, 2 mid level and 2 reach application. Very helpful. 

 

 

 

 

They are considering a gap year for sure.

18 hours ago, Lanny said:

OP you tried.  That was all that you could do and you did it.  There is a story about "you can lead a Horse to water, but you cannot make the Horse drink the water". There was nothing else that you could have done and you should be content, knowing that you tried your best to explain the risk to them.

 

That is a perfect analogy.  Thank you :) 

18 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

The thing is, there is a big difference between having “no options” and “not liking the options I have.”  

My sister settled on a single school when she was in high school, she decided she wanted to go to University of Arizona. And she applied and got in with no problem.  And it wasn’t until JULY that she realized that she genuinely couldn’t afford it. (Now this was not because she wasn’t aware of the financial situation-my parents had made it know since we were kids that they were not paying, she had been given all the same information I had about school costs, tuition costs, financial aid etc. She just basically ignored it all.). So she whipped off an application to IUPUI and had no issue getting in.  

 

True, that is a huge factor.  If they had applied to some safeties they would have had options they didn't prefer but better options than they have now.  If that makes sense? 

 

 

[Lucy the Valiant]

14 minutes ago, ScoutTN said:

8, in a few years, when college is looming for my oldest, I want to come to one of your workshops! ;)

 

Me, too! Would you ever consider giving one remotely? To WTM mamas? We will pay you. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

19 hours ago, brehon said:

I’ve always heard and believed the mantra to have at least one academic and financial safety. My eldest is a sophomore and knows that his ability to attend university at all is dependent on earning scholarships. My problem is that we haven’t found a financial safety.

My kid is really smart, but not an academic or test-taking superstar. He won’t earn full-ride or full-tuition scholarships anywhere. He certainly could go to the local community college, but we would be hard pressed to pay for full-time attendance there, too. Unfortunately, my salary precludes most financial aid even when the number of dependents is accounted for. 

I guess my question is *how* does one find a financial safety when one cannot afford anything? Or maybe my understanding of “financial safety” is inaccurate. Sorry; I’m kvetching. I stay up at night worrying about this. 

 

17 hours ago, katilac said:

 

No, your understanding is accurate. Your son's financial safety might have to be part-time at the community college.  

Don't guess about anything, though. Just as some people overestimate scholarships and expenses, others underestimate them. You seem to know the cost of the local CC, do you know if they offer scholarships? Many do, and they generally require lower scores than those at university. Do you know if they have a dual enrollment program? Even if it is at full price, taking some classes over the next two years would spread out the cost.  

Look up the cost at the local uni, and look up their scholarships (of course this can change over several years, so keep checking). Your son should take a practice ACT now if he hasn't, so you get a rough idea (keeping in mind that another year of math and some test prep can boost that score a good bit). Some schools have scholarships for good but not great scores; not full tuition for sure, but possibly enough to make it affordable. Start looking now for any local scholarships he might be eligible for, they are not always intended for tippy top students only. 

Basically, what are the potential costs? CC, uni, at home, dorm, full time, part time, all the things. Then, what are the potential sources of payment? High school job, college job, x amount of help from parents, scholarships, student loan. 

If you have some money to put aside, I'd be looking at a 529 or similar plan. Even small amounts put away over 2+ years will add up. 

Once you have some of this information, sit down with your son and discuss it. He needs to know what is and isn't likely to be possible, and how much of the deal is going to up to him. He might choose to start working now, even odd jobs, to save money and increase his chances of going full-time the first year. He might want to go part-time and work more hours. If he has gift-giving relatives, they might be happy to contribute to a 529 if that is what he wants. 

Of course, these are not all decisions that he has to make right now, but he needs to be aware. Not just aware in general that there isn't a lot of money for college, but specifically aware of the probable costs of various options. 

 

 

 

I feel like Katilac answered your question pretty thoroughly.  I would question - are you sure with your number of dependents versus income that you can't get FA from a CC or a local uni?  They do offer it and your dependents are taken into account.  We have a local uni about 45 minutes away and we have a CC close too.  DS's safety will be those two schools.  He can drive, live at home, work part time, take on the $5500 federal loan if needed, etc.  He is not a bad student, but he isn't as strong of a student as my either of my DD's, and these are solid safety options for him.  

[SanDiegoMom]

We have a friend that did the same thing -- with slightly less disastrous consequences but still not a great match for him.  He had slightly lower stats than my dd, pretty equal extracurriculars (one good leadership position) but nothing to write home about.  I think the aggressive marketing of the Ivies combined with his and his mom's over-confidence really led them into bad decision making.  He applied to MIT, Princeton, Harvard, our state flagship, the engineering program at another school, and one other high performing but very small and quirky, non- sports focused school here in our state.  He was rejected by all except the latter, which has typically had a harder time recruiting males.  It is not a good fit for this extroverted, sports crazy kid, but that's where he will be going! I feel so bad for him.  Just some basic time doing research on stats, a little time on College Confidential, might have saved them some huge disappointment.  

[yvonne]

1 hour ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

 Just some basic time doing research on stats, a little time on College Confidential, might have saved them some huge disappointment.  

Exactly. 

I have relatives in another state with a daughter who is a high school junior. I'm afraid they may be heading for the same situation. She and her parents fully expect that she'll be choosing between Ivies, MIT, UC Berkeley, and Stanford for college. Those are the schools they've visited and the ones to which she plans to apply.

She is a bright girl, but NONE of those are a slam dunk for ANYone , no matter what their academic stats & ECs are. She has no hooks, other than being a female interested in math/engineering, if that counts. Even for kids with real hooks, though, I doubt that any of those schools would be a given. (Finances are not an issue for her family, so those aren't a consideration that might cause them to apply to other colleges.)

One hour reading threads about applications/admissions to those colleges on College Confidential would be a  sobering, enlightening experience. The posts are all anecdotal, of course, but they definitely provide a hefty dose of reality.

 

[GoodGrief]

For those inclined and well-suited for the work, the military offers some options. Either via upfront scholarships, or the GI Bill, if one enlists.

Also, for certain fields, there may be loan repayment programs available. Back in the day I had my loans repaid by a non-military federal agency in exchange for working in a rural hospital for two years.

[mytwomonkeys]

Such good advice! My daughter will be a junior at the local public high school. She will be dual enrolled beginning next year. We are specifically following an academic track that will make her eligible for the CAPE scholarship here, which will allow her to attain her AS degree & then it covers  60 hours toward a BS. This safety net will still only cover about half of her tuition at the CC. Of course she’s planning to take the ACT & go after a better scholarship... but the CAPE is our safety net if all else fails. My son homeschools and will be entering high school next year. Our plans for him are similar, and we definitely plan to take advantage of dual enrollment beginning in 10th grade so that he can attain his Associates degree upon graduation. For us, it just makes financial sense to utilize DE options and the community college for their undergraduate degrees. They can move to the university for further education. But for our budget, we had to plan what we could afford.

[SanDiegoMom]

3 hours ago, yvonne said:

Exactly. 

I have relatives in another state with a daughter who is a high school junior. I'm afraid they may be heading for the same situation. She and her parents fully expect that she'll be choosing between Ivies, MIT, UC Berkeley, and Stanford for college. Those are the schools they've visited and the ones to which she plans to apply.

She is a bright girl, but NONE of those are a slam dunk for ANYone , no matter what their academic stats & ECs are. She has no hooks, other than being a female interested in math/engineering, if that counts. Even for kids with real hooks, though, I doubt that any of those schools would be a given. (Finances are not an issue for her family, so those aren't a consideration that might cause them to apply to other colleges.)

One hour reading threads about applications/admissions to those colleges on College Confidential would be a  sobering, enlightening experience. The posts are all anecdotal, of course, but they definitely provide a hefty dose of reality.

 

And understanding the differences in applying to engineering vs applying humanities when it comes to UC's is very important. My dd's two closest friends with higher stats and better extra-curriculars got rejected by UCLA and Berkeley - both applied engineering. (Both female, almost straight A's, straight 5's on their 12 AP's, awards and honors in  diverse extra curriculars, 1560 and 1580 SAT, to give some specifics!)  Also within engineering if you apply undeclared engineering - just in general to the engineering school, the acceptance rate  drops down to like 5 percent.  It's crazy, and that's probably the source of a lot of frustration. The stated SAT ranges and gpas for the whole school are different than for the engineering. 

Luckily her friends applied widely and landed on their feet. It's so important to have a good solid range of choices you would be happy with! 

[crazyforlatin]

19 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

And understanding the differences in applying to engineering vs applying humanities when it comes to UC's is very important. My dd's two closest friends with higher stats and better extra-curriculars got rejected by UCLA and Berkeley - both applied engineering. (Both female, almost straight A's, straight 5's on their 12 AP's, awards and honors in  diverse extra curriculars, 1560 and 1580 SAT, to give some specifics!)  Also within engineering if you apply undeclared engineering - just in general to the engineering school, the acceptance rate  drops down to like 5 percent.  It's crazy, and that's probably the source of a lot of frustration. The stated SAT ranges and gpas for the whole school are different than for the engineering. 

Luckily her friends applied widely and landed on their feet. It's so important to have a good solid range of choices you would be happy with! 

 During the forum blackout, I was reading very similar stories like the one above. It's been quite eye-opening for me but needed, even though we still have 4 years until application time.

[Ann.without.an.e]

16 hours ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

And understanding the differences in applying to engineering vs applying humanities when it comes to UC's is very important. My dd's two closest friends with higher stats and better extra-curriculars got rejected by UCLA and Berkeley - both applied engineering. (Both female, almost straight A's, straight 5's on their 12 AP's, awards and honors in  diverse extra curriculars, 1560 and 1580 SAT, to give some specifics!)  Also within engineering if you apply undeclared engineering - just in general to the engineering school, the acceptance rate  drops down to like 5 percent.  It's crazy, and that's probably the source of a lot of frustration. The stated SAT ranges and gpas for the whole school are different than for the engineering. 

Luckily her friends applied widely and landed on their feet. It's so important to have a good solid range of choices you would be happy with! 

 

 

It does make a difference.  DS really wants to go to NC State but he also wants computer science or information technology and State has computer science but it falls under the school of engineering so he would need to be accepted to the school of engineering and they don't even have an IT program.  I think he could get in there if he wouldn't have to go the engineering route :/  

[cuckoomamma]

How do you filter the schools that will award merit aid to a high performing student?

[GoodGrief]

1 hour ago, cuckoomamma said:

How do you filter the schools that will award merit aid to a high performing student?

 The financial aid portion of the school websites generally list available major scholarships and whether they are automatic or competitive. It's typical that departmental scholarships might not be listed, and sometimes you have to dig a bit.

College Confidential's financial aid forum has some helpful threads listing schools known for large merit awards and automatic scholarships.

[JanetC]

 

3 hours ago, cuckoomamma said:

How do you filter the schools that will award merit aid to a high performing student?

 

You should also read about merit aid on the school website. Some spell out your merit by GPA and test score, some don't.

If the school Net Price Calculator asks for GPA and scores, you can play around entering higher scores to see if it increases the merit award.

My last trick is to use collegedata.com. Look up a school, then under the money matters tab, the average merit and the percentages of kids getting merit are listed.

if you need more than the average merit, divide the percentage in half. So if the average merit is 8,000 given to the top 15%, and you need more than that, aim to be in the top 7.5%.

ETA: only count automatic merit awards as part of determining if this is a safety school.

 

EDIT 2: misspelled www.collegedata.com

[scholastica]

4 hours ago, Attolia said:

 

 

It does make a difference.  DS really wants to go to NC State but he also wants computer science or information technology and State has computer science but it falls under the school of engineering so he would need to be accepted to the school of engineering and they don't even have an IT program.  I think he could get in there if he wouldn't have to go the engineering route :/  

Have you looked at UNC-Charlotte for CS? It’s in its own college now (was part of Engineering) and is well-regarded. 

And I know how you feel about watching people do these things, it’s frustrating. I see so many people convinced their kid is going to get a full sports scholarship at a D1 school. They end up with a 1/2 scholarship to a D2 and it’s out of state. They pay as much for tuition and room and board as they would full freight at some of our state schools.

[Reefgazer]

On ‎4‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 11:52 AM, Attolia said:

I feel like so many moms (including myself) have stressed this over and over again but we still hear the saddest stories.  I share the following out of love for your dc, not out of judgement.  I am definitely not a perfect person.  I sought help here and I heeded the advice of others.  

You cannot guarantee admissions to a full need met school or a competitive school, ever.  Perfect test score?  nope, not a guarantee. Perfect gpa?  definitely not a guarantee.  Insert whatever stellar thing you might want here and it isn't a guarantee.  I have a friend in this very situation right now and I feel so bad for her dd.  She asked me in the fall what I thought about their school list and I said "what is your safety school?"  She rambled off a few small, expensive schools and, knowing their financial situation, I said "those aren't safe financially".  She was adamant that her dd would get a full merit offer (or at least close) to one of these schools or that her dd would get into at least one of her need met options.  Her dd got into zero need met schools and her merit packages from the other schools are simply not enough. They would need to bury themselves in debt.  This makes me sick to my stomach because just one or two state schools as a back up plan would have solved this completely - her daughter would have probably gotten into the honors program even.  But now they have zero options for the fall. And I need to vent somewhere because I am honestly a little mad at her because I stressed this to her so much.  She kept pointing to the average test score and gpa range for the schools "see, she's right in the middle".   I could not talk sense into this mom so I had to let it go.

My dd had a great resume but she applied to two state schools who had average test scores and gpa ranges well below hers.  Don't be too risky in this process.  Have a safety.

Vent over...thank you for listening.  

 

Important message; thank you!  Hopefully, her DD will find a college with rolling admissions that is not super-expensive, or start at a community college.

[Ann.without.an.e]

2 hours ago, scholastica said:

Have you looked at UNC-Charlotte for CS? It’s in its own college now (was part of Engineering) and is well-regarded. 

And I know how you feel about watching people do these things, it’s frustrating. I see so many people convinced their kid is going to get a full sports scholarship at a D1 school. They end up with a 1/2 scholarship to a D2 and it’s out of state. They pay as much for tuition and room and board as they would full freight at some of our state schools.

Yes, UNCC is very top on our list.  He will definitely apply there and apply early.  He can actually drive there, it is a bit of a commute at about 45-50 minutes, but it can be done.

[daijobu]

Doesn't this student have friends?  Friends who are a year or two older?  My dd, now a junior, is hearing from her high achieving talented senior friends about which colleges admitted and notably rejected them.  That has been cautionary tale for all of us, and I hope it is grounding my dd in reality and alleviating some disappointment next year.  

The gal who organized the hackathon for 1000 students is going to UC Merced?  (I'm exaggerating, but only a little.)  

There's no excuse to not apply to your state's flagship schools.  

[Sebastian (a lady)]

14 minutes ago, daijobu said:

 

There's no excuse to not apply to your state's flagship schools.  

The flagship schools in our last two states are very competitive. Great schools but no safety there.  

Our current state accepts every student who meets minimum scores and grades (really, as explained by admissions) but doesn't have strong degree programs for either of my older kids. 

There can be reasons that a flagship doesn't meet a student's needs. 

[JanetC]

Perhaps the flagship isn't for everyone, but somewhere in-state is still a good start to building a college list.

The list of in-state campuses plus local community college(s) is a small enough universe (except maybe in California!) for a high school student to work through learning what college tours are like, how to research academics, admissions requirements and chances, financial aid, and so on. 

At the end, looking for a college is less overwhelming, and they have a decent school with a low(ish) price tag on their list. The sense of what's missing from that school can inform their search as they expand their college list.

[8filltheheart]

In terms of an in-state school, usually the answer is probably yes most of the time, but it is not going to be yes all of the time, especially in states  with fewer in-state Us and for kids with unusual majors.  It is not true that kids can build an atypical major by simply majoring in the more common field (this is an argument presented for aerospace engineering or neuroscience). For example, if a student wants to major in Arabic and has taken 2 yrs in high school and all in state options only offer a minor, then that student is going to have to look out of state if they want to progress unless the dept is willing to work with them. Some might. Some might not. There isn't a single answer.

[plansrme]

13 hours ago, daijobu said:

Doesn't this student have friends?  Friends who are a year or two older?  My dd, now a junior, is hearing from her high achieving talented senior friends about which colleges admitted and notably rejected them.  That has been cautionary tale for all of us, and I hope it is grounding my dd in reality and alleviating some disappointment next year.    

This is one of the reasons I get perturbed when I read, especially on CC, about how tight-lipped parents and their students are about their own college journey.  People get so irate when friends dare to ask where their child has applied to college.  Come on, guys, a little openness about the process may be what saves a kid a year or two behind you from having nowhere to go!  I also found that to be true for us with swim recruiting, and it seems each swim family has to reinvent the wheel.  I've possibly overshared with the parents of younger swimmers in my circle--I give dollars and percentages and name names, but I wish someone had done the same for us.  The only swim parent who ever gave us concrete information was the mom of one of the top-ranked swimmers in the U.S., and her experience wasn't particularly useful to those of us targeting mid-major D1 schools!

[JanetC]

1 hour ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

It is not true that kids can build an atypical major by simply majoring in the more common field (this is an argument presented for aerospace engineering or neuroscience). For example, if a student wants to major in Arabic and has taken 2 yrs in high school and all in state options only offer a minor, then that student is going to have to look out of state if they want to progress unless the dept is willing to work with them. Some might. Some might not. There isn't a single answer.

That major in mechanical engineering when you prefer aerospace or the psychology major when you prefer neuroscience are maybe not ideal, but safety schools often involve some kind of compromise. 

Your financial safety school is something guaranteed affordable, not something that fulfills your entire wish list. You can't always let the perfect become the enemy of the good. For most kids, a degree from an imperfect college or in an imperfect major is better than stopping with a high school diploma. 

Obviously, if you do end up getting in somewhere better that you can afford, you would go there. 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

3 hours ago, JanetC said:

Perhaps the flagship isn't for everyone, but somewhere in-state is still a good start to building a college list.

The list of in-state campuses plus local community college(s) is a small enough universe (except maybe in California!) for a high school student to work through learning what college tours are like, how to research academics, admissions requirements and chances, financial aid, and so on. 

At the end, looking for a college is less overwhelming, and they have a decent school with a low(ish) price tag on their list. The sense of what's missing from that school can inform their search as they expand their college list.

I would generally agree with that.  I think it's especially good advice for students who know they want to go to college, but don't know what they want to study.  

Our situation was unusual, given that we have moved around a lot and aren't likely to still live in the area by the time our kids graduate from college.  So while tuition might have an in-state break, we would lose the benefit of having a commuter student by the end of their college years.  

I do really like your suggestion to start with an analysis of what is available locally.  There are some real gems  out there in some states.  The in-state tuition break can feel like a many thousand dollar scholarship, but it renews automatically and doesn't have a gpa requirement.  It's defenitely worth looking at.  
 

I think for some students attending traditional schools, there is a tendency to judge a college based on their least favorite schoolmate or acquaintance who attends or applied there.  Which isn't really fair.  There are lots of different departments, majors tracks and honors colleges that can differentiate the experience of students.  I did my masters degree at a good but average state school with mostly commuter students.  Yet I had some very experienced and talented instructors in my programs.  What the sports fanboys were doing on the weekend didn't have any impact on my classes or experience.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

1 minute ago, JanetC said:

That major in mechanical engineering when you prefer aerospace or the psychology major when you prefer neuroscience are maybe not ideal, but safety schools often involve some kind of compromise. 

Your financial safety school is something guaranteed affordable, not something that fulfills your entire wish list. You can't always let the perfect become the enemy of the good. For most kids, a degree from an imperfect college or in an imperfect major is better than stopping with a high school diploma. 

Obviously, if you do end up getting in somewhere better that you can afford, you would go there. 

It's worth underlining that we are talking about safety schools and plan B (or plan C/D/E/F) options.  When other acceptances didn't come in or the money isn't there.  

For some students that will look like having to go to school farther from home than they like, because that is where the merit aid is.  (I scratch my head as much over [healthy] students who refuse to go more than a couple hours away as I do over kids who look down on local offerings.)

For some it might mean community college and close attention to a transfer agreement.

For some it might mean picking a related major at an available and affordable school and doing as much coursework or internships as possible in the desired field.

For some it might mean finding a college that allows for designing ones own major.

 

The foreign languages are a tough one.  You can't just invent language professors if they aren't there.  That was a consideration for one of my kids as well.  There are more 4th year students in his language at his current school than there were taking all four years at some of the other schools he considered.  Because of this, some schools got crossed off the list.  It was just as important for his situation as affordability, because going to the schools with fewer language offerings would have meant spending tuition on an education that didn't fit his goals (or the considerations of a major scholarship he was aiming for and eventually earned).  But in his case, there were still many schools we could afford with better fits.