Orpington Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 Is this beard thing going to be a multi-decade thing, do you think? I was hoping the "women must be hairless down there" thing was a fad but it appears to be around for the long haul, and I'm curious where the beard thing is headed. ____ I used to be Poppy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz CA Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 Beards have been around for a long time. Do you mean the scruffy look or the goaties? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 No rule about having to follow any of that. I don't see a lot of bearded guys. And TMI, but I haven't been hairless down there since I was a little girl. LOL 15 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6packofun Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 Women have to be hairless down there? LOL I didn't realize so-called independent women were still bowing to the porn industry and the men who run it or get their preferences from it. Anyway, another great thing about marriage. Only one other person to please. And my dh wears facial hair--and has for quite a while--because we both like it. :) 14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 tbh- unless it's your dh, why does it matter? as long as they're clean . . . it's just a fashion - like long or short hair for women. My dad grew a beard, and my grandmother would tell me to shave it off while he slept. she'd also tell me to cut my brother's shoulder length hair while he slept. (uh -no.) I have one son with a beard - he's wavered with or without, but I think he's settled on with. he keeps it neatly trimmed (and shaves his throat). I've never felt it was my place to say anything - it's clean and neat and he's an adult. he looks older with a beard - which helps with his baby face and being taken seriously. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loowit Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 My DH has had a beard for about 20 years now. He originally grew it because he was tired of being mistaken for a middle schooler. A couple years ago he tried shaving it off, but neither of us liked the clean shaven look on him. He keeps it pretty short and it looks good on him. He isn't doing it to be stylish or trendy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 I don't mind real beards, including goatees, but my adult son likes to shave only once every few weeks, which means that he looks unkempt most of the time. And I only recently found out about the hairless down there woman thing. Insert freaked out emoji here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spryte Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 I think both are here to stay for a while, for good or ill. I don’t mind most beards - as long as they are relatively intentional looking. I view them like any haircut. Though I confess that the ones that are grown out of not caring, and laziness - those turn me off. We have a mentally ill family member whose beard is completely out of control when his illness is flaring. I find the look disturbing. But it might be bias on my part. As for teA room carpet removal ... eh. I pretty much don’t know/care what other RL women do. I’m thinking it’s also a personal preference thing, and to each her own. I did freak out recently when I found out about a certain, ummm, bleaching practice that involves another, errrrr, teA room door. Bleach belongs nowhere near those areas, aaaccck. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty ethel rackham Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 I'm not a fan of the full bushy beard trend, but that's just me. I see it quite a bit since dd is a rock climber and I spend a ton of time at the climbing gym. Dh is clean shaven and I like that. My oldest has facial hair, but he looks about 12 without it, so it is a good look on him. He keeps it well-trimmed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 43 minutes ago, Liz CA said: Beards have been around for a long time. Do you mean the scruffy look or the goaties? yeah, see, I'm SO over that scruffy, days-old-but-not-really-a-beard thing. Either grow a beard or shave, for crying out loud. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz CA Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 7 minutes ago, Spryte said: I think both are here to stay for a while, for good or ill. I don’t mind most beards - as long as they are relatively intentional looking. I view them like any haircut. Though I confess that the ones that are grown out of not caring, and laziness - those turn me off. We have a mentally ill family member whose beard is completely out of control when his illness is flaring. I find the look disturbing. But it might be bias on my part. As for teA room carpet removal ... eh. I pretty much don’t know/care what other RL women do. I’m thinking it’s also a personal preference thing, and to each her own. I did freak out recently when I found out about a certain, ummm, bleaching practice that involves another, errrrr, teA room door. Bleach belongs nowhere near those areas, aaaccck. Ugghh, I am thinking of possible medical issues resulting from that practice. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 1 hour ago, Orpington said: Is this beard thing going to be a multi-decade thing, do you think? I was hoping the "women must be hairless down there" thing was a fad but it appears to be around for the long haul, and I'm curious where the beard thing is headed. ____ I used to be Poppy Do you raise chickens? I am curious why you picked your new name. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heatherwith4 Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 Just now, unsinkable said: Do you raise chickens? I am curious why you picked your new name. I was wondering the same thing. Orpingtons are my favorite chickens! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happi duck Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 Ime, it has always been the case that some guys have beards and some don't. The percentage seems pretty much the same as back when I was a kid and sometimes my dad would have a beard and sometimes he wouldn't. I wonder if more beards are shown on television so it just seems prevelent? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alisoncooks Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 DH has always had facial hair, specifically a bushy beard for the past decade. At least he fits in now, lol. Big beards are very popular amongst young, hip men in our area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 It's the mustaches sort of trying to come back that are concerning me. I sort of like beards on some guys & the scruffy couple days' growth look. But I really really do not like goatees. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retired Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 My dh has had the short beard for 20 years cause I like it. Plus he is the type of guy that had to shave twice a day for clean cut. The first 10 years we were together he had the 80's mustache. He would not get rid of the dang thing. The beard is a wonderful improvement LOL I do not like the now popular full bushing long beard that looks like pelvic hair. It just looks unkempt nasty. As for women hairless bikini areas it seems to me the generation around 10 years younger than me. I'm 48 and been seeing the bare ladies young teen now almost 40 in the hospital. The generation has aged and kept it bare so now upper 30's. My dh supervisor with all men in a industrial setting so the guy can be rather crude talking about their sex life's etc. He said that his younger men say they have never seen a ladies part with hair LOL. Yeah to much information LOL. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 I guess when testosterone goes out of style? Beards grow on their faces. Shaving is the fashion, but I wouldn't call "hair growing out of an adult male human's face" a "thing". My partner can't really grow much of a beard so he's eager for clean-shaven to come in style again. I'll let you know! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orpington Posted April 6, 2018 Author Share Posted April 6, 2018 21 minutes ago, Tsuga said: I guess when testosterone goes out of style? Beards grow on their faces. Shaving is the fashion, but I wouldn't call "hair growing out of an adult male human's face" a "thing". My partner can't really grow much of a beard so he's eager for clean-shaven to come in style again. I'll let you know! Do you actually think that beards are the default and shaved men are atypical? Do you live in a Millenium-heavy town? It is extremely fashionable for guys in their late 20s-mid 30s to have beards these days. When I was that age, it wasn't. I know it's all just what's in fashion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orpington Posted April 6, 2018 Author Share Posted April 6, 2018 1 hour ago, unsinkable said: Do you raise chickens? I am curious why you picked your new name. The new forums just befuddled me :) We are looking to get chickens. I have the land just not the coop yet. And my 10 year old tells me that Buff Orpingtons are the "labrador retrievers of chickens" so seems like a safe bet! 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orpington Posted April 6, 2018 Author Share Posted April 6, 2018 2 hours ago, gardenmom5 said: tbh- unless it's your dh, why does it matter? as long as they're clean . . . it's just a fashion - like long or short hair for women. My dad grew a beard, and my grandmother would tell me to shave it off while he slept. she'd also tell me to cut my brother's shoulder length hair while he slept. (uh -no.) I have one son with a beard - he's wavered with or without, but I think he's settled on with. he keeps it neatly trimmed (and shaves his throat). I've never felt it was my place to say anything - it's clean and neat and he's an adult. he looks older with a beard - which helps with his baby face and being taken seriously. It doesn't matter, but, I have an opinion anyway... same as 99% of what gets discussed here LOL 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orpington Posted April 6, 2018 Author Share Posted April 6, 2018 2 hours ago, 6packofun said: Women have to be hairless down there? LOL I didn't realize so-called independent women were still bowing to the porn industry and the men who run it or get their preferences from it. Anyway, another great thing about marriage. Only one other person to please. And my dh wears facial hair--and has for quite a while--because we both like it. :) It really & truly is common for women these days to be hairless or very very closely trimmed. And, exactly like wearing make-up, they alllll say "I do it for me, not for him / not to impress men". Which, sure. I get that. But I also roll my eyes. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbel Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 My husband started growing out his beard when he was on paternity leave when our first was born, so... coming up on 21 years and neither of us has ever looked back. Honestly, his chin is not awesome. :-) But he keeps it well-shaped. It's not a goatee; I guess it's a full beard? Beard, mustache, sideburns all connected, I don't know the right word - but short. Not a prophet beard (like the ZZTop or Judah and the Lion guys); I don't like that look and would object to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targhee Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 I do t think there are more beards than at another time. I think there are more Looooong beards (maybe not more than in 1850). I don’t know about the trend. I do find it interesting that there’s a trend towards long (ergo older looking) beards in men, and even more hairless (ergo younger looking) women’s bodies. I’m for wearing your hair how you like, as it is an extension of your body. I prefer clean and attended to and not terribly long - just because I say I think you should wear your hair the way you like it doesn’t mean I have to like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMS83 Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 /shrug. I like beards. :) But it's not something I get worked up over--especially when it's someone else's face. :D I guess I wouldn't like a beard on my face... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 3 hours ago, gardenmom5 said: tbh- unless it's your dh, why does it matter? as long as they're clean . . . it's just a fashion - like long or short hair for women. My dad grew a beard, and my grandmother would tell me to shave it off while he slept. she'd also tell me to cut my brother's shoulder length hair while he slept. (uh -no.) I have one son with a beard - he's wavered with or without, but I think he's settled on with. he keeps it neatly trimmed (and shaves his throat). I've never felt it was my place to say anything - it's clean and neat and he's an adult. he looks older with a beard - which helps with his baby face and being taken seriously. One time my dad grew a goatee. My mother missed no opportunity to say she didn’t like it, but I thought it looked awesome! My dad is a very erudite man and he looked like an Ivy League professor with that grey facial hair. He eventually shaved it to please my mom, but all that while that he had it, I was such a fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 1 hour ago, Orpington said: It really & truly is common for women these days to be hairless or very very closely trimmed. And, exactly like wearing make-up, they alllll say "I do it for me, not for him / not to impress men". Which, sure. I get that. But I also roll my eyes. Well, I would be perfectly fine with it if that hair there fell out for good and not because DH likes it in a particular “style.” Hair can impede comfort and cleanliness. A little trim work is better, just as trimmed toenails are. And that’s all I’m gonna say about that. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cave canem Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 1 hour ago, Orpington said: It really & truly is common for women these days to be hairless or very very closely trimmed. How do we know this? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooCow Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 My oldest is very proud of his beard and I"ve heard guys complement him on it, so I'm saying it's here a few more years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty ethel rackham Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 1 hour ago, StellaM said: Beards are nothing new. I quite like a good hipster beard. I even like a hipster beard with a man bun. I can dig a man bun. But I am so over the hipster beard. But, then again, I'm not someone they have to please. Hubby experimented with the facial hair in college, including the porn star mustache. He did stop shaving over an extended vacation, but didn't like it since the grey beard made him look older. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsMommy Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 I don't really care what men do with their facial hair, but I have run across the whole "real men have beards" things more than once, and that seriously irks me. Your manliness is NOT dependent on your facial hair, and you don't get to judge other men based on theirs. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hjffkj Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 2 hours ago, Orpington said: It really & truly is common for women these days to be hairless or very very closely trimmed. And, exactly like wearing make-up, they alllll say "I do it for me, not for him / not to impress men". Which, sure. I get that. But I also roll my eyes. How exactly can you understand that they do it for them and still roll your eyes? Those two things don't really seem compatible. The eye rolling suggests you think they are lying about their intentions so really you don't get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barb_ Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 I’ve never posted a photo on the new forums so I think this is a good place to test one. Behold my dh closing in on the age of 32 holding our third child. As with some previous posters, this is the reason why my dh grew a beard. 6 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 2 hours ago, Quill said: One time my dad grew a goatee. My mother missed no opportunity to say she didn’t like it, but I thought it looked awesome! My dad is a very erudite man and he looked like an Ivy League professor with that grey facial hair. He eventually shaved it to please my mom, but all that while that he had it, I was such a fan. well, he probably wanted your mom to kiss him, so she would get a say. 5 hours ago, Ellie said: yeah, see, I'm SO over that scruffy, days-old-but-not-really-a-beard thing. Either grow a beard or shave, for crying out loud. then they'd have tomake up their mind. 36 minutes ago, Barb_ said: I’ve never posted a photo on the new forums so I think this is a good place to test one. Behold my dh closing in on the age of 32 holding our third child. As with some previous posters, this is the reason why my dh grew a beard. if you hadn't said anything, i'd think he was the teenage brother. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rose Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 My dh has a beard down to his mid chest. It's basically capped out in length. When he first started growing it really long, about 12 years ago, people would make rude comments about it. Now he gets people complimenting it because it's trendy. Women sometimes even compliment it, even in front of me. Who does that? I can't imagine complimenting another woman's husband on his appearance, especially in front of her. Random trivia for the day... Did you know that Russia at one point had a beard tax? Tsar Peter I instituted the tax in order to pressure the culture to conform to European ideals. My 14 yo ds is working on a beard. It's blond but it's definitely there. It makes him look older. He's says he's never going to trim it ever. Power to him! Most of our friends have full beards. We're also in a city that has a very dense Sikh population. The men as a rule have long beards. I'm really used to it. Now sometimes when I see men in public without a beard I sometimes do a bit of a double take. I find it effeminate. I don't mean that with judgment though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 I don't mind beards. But dear god, if you're a man with a very long, scraggly, greasy beard and you work in food service, put that thing in a net. I was at Arby's the other day and the cook in the back had a beard long enough to tickle the sandwiches he was making. *hork* Beards are definitely popular here. At the manufacturing plant my dh works at, all the guys in their twenties have been growing out beards for the last year or two. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orpington Posted April 7, 2018 Author Share Posted April 7, 2018 2 hours ago, hjffkj said: How exactly can you understand that they do it for them and still roll your eyes? Those two things don't really seem compatible. The eye rolling suggests you think they are lying about their intentions so really you don't get it. The idea that they did the exact same thing as their peers all coincidentally "for me" is what makes me roll my eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orpington Posted April 7, 2018 Author Share Posted April 7, 2018 1 hour ago, rose said: My dh has a beard down to his mid chest. It's basically capped out in length. When he first started growing it really long, about 12 years ago, people would make rude comments about it. Now he gets people complimenting it because it's trendy. Women sometimes even compliment it, even in front of me. Who does that? I can't imagine complimenting another woman's husband on his appearance, especially in front of her. Random trivia for the day... Did you know that Russia at one point had a beard tax? Tsar Peter I instituted the tax in order to pressure the culture to conform to European ideals. My 14 yo ds is working on a beard. It's blond but it's definitely there. It makes him look older. He's says he's never going to trim it ever. Power to him! Most of our friends have full beards. We're also in a city that has a very dense Sikh population. The men as a rule have long beards. I'm really used to it. Now sometimes when I see men in public without a beard I sometimes do a bit of a double take. I find it effeminate. I don't mean that with judgment though. Beards are not to my tastes, but, I never mean to imply they are bad. Same as you. Its' OK either way, truly. I know ONE guy with a beard and I think, ewwww. Two guys, now that i think of it. But I bet if it was common in my circle / family, I bet I'd feel very differently. If my dad had a beard growing up I'm sure I"d feel different. It's very subjective. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamaraby Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 I don’t know that it’s a thing, more like a sign of the times where we’re opening up less rigid ways for men to look. Why should clean shaven be the default? Dh has had a goatee for pretty much the last 17 years. At first it was by choice and then he was limited by his employer’s grooming rules which allowed mustaches, goatees, or nothing. Except dh has been shaving since late elementary school and the man can grow some serious facial hair, quickly. So clean shaven was never really a thing for him. And did I mention the shaving? So much shaving for so many years. His employer updated their rules and allowed well trimmed beards so now he has a beard. It costs more money because this bald man of mine now needs periodic beard maintenance at the barber shop, but he’s happy so why should it matter? It may not be your thing, but then maybe don’t grow a beard, eh? ;) I’m just glad that dh is happy and has at least some control over this one choice in his life that is otherwise ruled by his very stressful job. Let’s face it, until late last year his employer was still fighting against the “lax grooming standards” of the hippies. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cave canem Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 2 hours ago, gardenmom5 said: if you hadn't said anything, i'd think he was the teenage brother. It's the snoopy tie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 56 minutes ago, Orpington said: The idea that they did the exact same thing as their peers all coincidentally "for me" is what makes me roll my eyes. Not to mention the fact that the practice originated in porn culture... I had no idea this was even a thing (beyond just a regular "bikini trim") until I read an article that interviewed a bunch of college guys, many of whom said they thought pubic hair on a woman was "totally disgusting" and they would not even consider having sex with a girl who wasn't clean-shaven. I find it incredibly creepy that porn has convinced so many men that the natural bodies of sexually mature women are "disgusting" to the extent that they can only be turned on if their partner's genitals look like a 12 year old girl. 14 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 Mr. Ellie has had a mustache as long as I have known him. :-) He also grew a beard for a Dickens-era Christmas musical we were in, and kept it for several months. He did that a couple of times. I like the beard. :-) But I will never like the scruffy-should-have-shaved-but-was-too-lazy face. :-p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easypeasy Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 I'm hoping the must-grow-a-beard fad is fading by the time my ds catches on to the idea and thinks he needs to grow a beard. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 2 hours ago, cave canem said: It's the snoopy tie. I was a rabid snoopy fan as a child - I didn't even notice the tie. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 9 hours ago, Orpington said: Do you actually think that beards are the default and shaved men are atypical? Do you live in a Millenium-heavy town? It is extremely fashionable for guys in their late 20s-mid 30s to have beards these days. When I was that age, it wasn't. I know it's all just what's in fashion. Beards are the biological default. That's what I meant. I live in Seattle. We aren't so much hipsters as whatever ridiculous style we come up with to make fun of and reject LA fashion comes back as a comically exaggerated and absurdly over-refined national fad. Currently I am predicting a national resurgence in no makeup, partially shaved heads, wifebeaters under puffy vests, hiking boots and cutoff jean shorts. You heard it here first folks, thats what the homeless kids on the hill are wearing. It will be coming to a GAP near you in about 30 months. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in Australia Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 MY Dh has a mustache and has had one ever since he started growing facial hair ( 15ish). My brothers were so impressed that some of them have had one ever since they met him. 2 of my sons have facial hair. sort of a shortish beard I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbel Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 11 hours ago, rose said: <snip> Most of our friends have full beards. We're also in a city that has a very dense Sikh population. The men as a rule have long beards. I'm really used to it. Now sometimes when I see men in public without a beard I sometimes do a bit of a double take. I find it effeminate. I don't mean that with judgment though. Well, wait. You are judging it. You are judging it as effeminate. That doesn't mean it's wrong to do that. And I'm not implying that you would treat someone differently (in a negative way) because they don't have a beard. But, you are making a judgment about the lack of beard. I'm not arguing with you, really. Maybe I don't understand the way people use "judgment" and "judging" now. Because I see people expressing an opinion about something, and then saying they aren't making a judgment... but they are. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechWife Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 I do know a few typical men with beards. But, I have noticed a weird trend. There is a small segment of homeschoolers around here that are "reformed," whether they be Baptist, Presbyterian, or generic, non-denominational. Among these men, they are clean shaven until they marry, then they grow a beard. It seems very Amish to me. I don't know any of them well enough to ask them if they grew a beard because they married or if they just decided to grow one. Does anyone else see this in their area? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 My ds has shaved twice in his lifetime. He has a full beard and keeps it trimmed. It balances out the long hair. Maybe when everyone quits getting bent out of shape about men with long hair, men will shave. ;) No, I know men who are bald with beards. For preference, I don't mind a beard on a man, when it gets ZZ top long, then *I* don't find it appealing. Ds kind of found a "beard mentor" who helped him pick out product and suggested trimming methods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 seems like it was around wwi that men's facial hairstyle went from neatly trimmed bears to shaved. (and even the, - there's always been both for men). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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