3rd and 5th grader math improvement/Woodcock Johnson scores

[borninthesouth]

I have a 3rd and a 5th grader that I do math with each day.  We sit and do Math Mammoth together.  My 5th grader is dyslexic and sometimes struggles remembering certain processes in math and memorization things like her multiplication tables.  That is pretty common with dyslexic kids.  My 3rd grader, however, zips through school work and usually does pretty well.  She seems to master most math concepts pretty well.  She has struggled a little with memorizing her multiplication tables and re-grouping addition and subtraction, but from my mom experience as we continue to go over those things eventually it starts to click.  I usually find that with maturity comes more understanding, even in math.  When they took the Woodcock-Johnson recently they were where I expected on everything except in Math Facts Fluency.  They were really low.  A part of me says, "they'll catch up as we continue to work on it." And a part of me says, "What the heck??!!  Why I am homeschooling if this is where we are at??"  The test administrator said that speed really hurt their scores.  Should I worry?  Is there anything else I can be doing to help or will it come with time? 

Neither of them likes math.  In fact, none of my 4 kids do!!  My husband is a bright guy but has always been better at language and writing.  My oldest rocks at writing, reading, and language, but struggles through math.  I have to sit with my 13-year-old as she does Teaching Textbooks pre-algebra.  It is tedious, but bit by bit she is getting it.  I was hoping that my younger kids would not struggle quite as much, but here we are.   I have recently started supplementing with Beast Academy, which they like much better.   I am no rocket scientist but I love fractions and find algebra somewhat enjoyable for a school subject.  So, where do we go from here?  Any other moms out there struggling with this and have some tricks I haven't tried?

[underthebridge]

I have seen many strategies on this forum and other sites and yes! So many others are struggling with this!

On one side of the approach, there are drills and memorizing with memory aids, like xtramath and Times Tales.

And on the other side, there is learning through use and composing tables for reference.

I use a variety of methods with my 3rd grader. We filled in empty grids, talked about patterns and used trianglular flash cards. But the most effective way was to single out the facts that were not memorized and work specifically on them. We did this by using worksheets with math facts, and if DD didn’t know any right away, she would put a check next to them and move on. At the end of the sheet we would look at the checked facts. 

We would then do a number talk about each one, where we would both come up with different strategies for solving them. For example, for 9x7, we could think of it as (10x7 - 7) or (9x6 + 9) or (9x7) = (8x8 -1).

When we do arithmetic, we are using a mixture of known and derived facts. For example, knowing that 9+7=16 helps us derive 39+7. It makes sense to me that every fact has to start as a derived fact before it becomes a known fact. After deriving 9x7 with these strategies the next 5 or 6 times, it then moves into the known fact part of the brain. And if DD forgets (which she does!) she can derive it again and repeat the process.  

I don’t know if this is the best approach, but it feels right to me and it has worked so far for my 3rd grader. And for me! I have always gotten 7x8 and 9x6 confused since I was a kid, but knowing that 9x6 = 10x6 - 6 is helpful.

[ghcostafamily]

I have a 4th and 3rd grader, one has been tested and is dyslexic, the other I KNOW is dyslexic but is not as servers as her sister. 

We use Singapore and beast together. They like beast as fun Math and we do it together, Singapore is done as an online class and I sit with them todo their homework.

They don’t have their math facts memorized either, so I bought Kate Snows addition and subtraction facts that stick books. I also am going to start using Right Starts Activites for the AL abacus and their games Book through the summer to see if this helps. Honestly I’ve never been a flash card drill mom, and now kinda wish I had....although with dyslexia im not sure it would have mattered much! Haha

They are both different learners when it comes to math but have both like Beast and Singapore. I’m scared to only use Beast academy for some reason, maybe because it’s sooo different than what I’m used to. If the kids choose to do only beast then that’s what we’ll do. I find it easy to teach, we read the chapter then plug away at the workboook till they get tired then stop. 

Once we cement the math facts I think all Math will flow easier. 

Sorry, no real advice except maybe try Math games and free worksheets daily till they get them down? A board member suggested the card game 24, also I’ve heard that the card game 7 ate 9 is good to. Look em up on YouTube to get an idea of how to play.

A basic card deck will work too or dominos!

 

[Targhee]

You might consider posting on the learning challenges board where it might attract the attention of others with experience in math with dyslexia.

is it possible that there’s another element (processing speed or working memory) in play? There may be something apart from the math that will help them improve in this area.  Best wishes!

[nixpix5]

Were you given the subset scores and which sections of the math portion they were most challenged by? The WCJ is broken into calculation, fluency, applied and quantitative concepts. They each target a different mathematical skill. When I administer sometimes math can be all over the place for kids. I see many kids do fine with calculation but fluency scores tank or applied math is challenging. It might be worth doing, if you haven't already...find out what tests in particular caused the most issue. 

[Black-eyed Suzan]

Do your kids like games? Have you seen this way to "drill" facts? My kids enjoy multiplication war. I did take out most (or all?) of the 10 cards.

https://denisegaskins.com/2006/12/29/the-game-that-is-worth-1000-worksheets/

[kagmypts]

4 hours ago, nixpix5 said:

Were you given the subset scores and which sections of the math portion they were most challenged by? The WCJ is broken into calculation, fluency, applied and quantitative concepts. They each target a different mathematical skill. When I administer sometimes math can be all over the place for kids. I see many kids do fine with calculation but fluency scores tank or applied math is challenging. It might be worth doing, if you haven't already...find out what tests in particular caused the most issue. 

This is great advice. 

If it is truly a math facts fluency problem, I would use basic flash cards.  I would start with addition flashcards.  After mastering addition, I would address subtraction, multiplication, and division in that order.  I suggest setting a timer and doing flash cards for 3 minutes a day.  Sort flash cards into piles - one pile for mastered facts and another pile for missed problems or problems that the child did not know immediately.  I would start the following day with the missed fact pile from the previous day.  Three minutes a day will make a huge difference.

[fralala]

On 4/6/2018 at 8:57 AM, borninthesouth said:

 I usually find that with maturity comes more understanding, even in math.  When they took the Woodcock-Johnson recently they were where I expected on everything except in Math Facts Fluency.  They were really low.  A part of me says, "they'll catch up as we continue to work on it." And a part of me says, "What the heck??!!  Why I am homeschooling if this is where we are at??"  The test administrator said that speed really hurt their scores.  Should I worry?  Is there anything else I can be doing to help or will it come with time?

 

Aw, no way! Not a "why am I homeschooling" moment!

You should absolutely NOT worry.

Memorizing math facts doesn't come naturally with time for many kids (including those in public school, as anyone who has taught high school math can assure you). There is a ton of practice in Math Mammoth and yet in MM3 she still insists that she wants kids to spend a week memorizing each table (IIRC). And I find the order she teaches them in, and her insistence on skip counting forward and backwards quickly and with mastery, extremely helpful. Do your kids enjoy any of the games she suggests at the beginning of the chapters on multiplication?

ITA that with maturity comes greater conceptual understanding, but the math facts are a handy tool for achieving greater understanding-- it's hard to push forward on new concepts when the brain hasn't yet made those automatic.

[borninthesouth]

On 4/6/2018 at 8:00 PM, nixpix5 said:

Were you given the subset scores and which sections of the math portion they were most challenged by? The WCJ is broken into calculation, fluency, applied and quantitative concepts. They each target a different mathematical skill. When I administer sometimes math can be all over the place for kids. I see many kids do fine with calculation but fluency scores tank or applied math is challenging. It might be worth doing, if you haven't already...find out what tests in particular caused the most issue. 

They did ok on the Mathematics section.  It was under Math Facts Fluency that they both did really poorly.  They didn't do well on Calculation either, but closer to grade level there.  The administrator said they were both slow.  But, I don't do drill with them and maybe I should.  

[borninthesouth]

1 hour ago, fralala said:

 

Aw, no way! Not a "why am I homeschooling" moment!

You should absolutely NOT worry.

Memorizing math facts doesn't come naturally with time for many kids (including those in public school, as anyone who has taught high school math can assure you). There is a ton of practice in Math Mammoth and yet in MM3 she still insists that she wants kids to spend a week memorizing each table (IIRC). And I find the order she teaches them in, and her insistence on skip counting forward and backwards quickly and with mastery, extremely helpful. Do your kids enjoy any of the games she suggests at the beginning of the chapters on multiplication?

ITA that with maturity comes greater conceptual understanding, but the math facts are a handy tool for achieving greater understanding-- it's hard to push forward on new concepts when the brain hasn't yet made those automatic.

Good info.  I think we will take some time to just work on fluency.  Thank you for the good advice!!

[borninthesouth]

I posted on the Learning Challenges Board and someone recommended Reflex Math.  It is a little pricey, but I am willing to try if it will help with their math fluency.  I am grateful to this day that I learned my multiplication facts so well.  Has anyone used it and can recommend it?

[Lecka]

I’m pretty sure there is a free trial.  You can see what your kids think.

For my kids — if they know they are going to have to do something math facts, they can like it more.  If the choice is not doing math facts at all, they would choose that.  But if they are going to have to do math facts anyway, it’s not so bad.

Advice is tell them don’t worry about missing questions at first.  It’s just seeing what they know already.  Then it will adjust from there and quit giving them questions they don’t know.  

My little kids liked to pick different items for their avatar and treehouse, which made it more fun for them.  

If your kids prefer something else — go by that.  Reflex Math is nice, but it’s not magical and if your kids would rather do something else then do what they like.

 

[nixpix5]

4 hours ago, borninthesouth said:

They did ok on the Mathematics section.  It was under Math Facts Fluency that they both did really poorly.  They didn't do well on Calculation either, but closer to grade level there.  The administrator said they were both slow.  But, I don't do drill with them and maybe I should.  

Well then you are in the most ideal situation. Fluency on the WCJ is tough. It is about 160 problems and students are suppose to power through as many as they can in a few minutes. This is an easy area to do poorly on. In fact, the overall score can be invalidated and shouldn't even be reported if the discrepancy is statistically significant between subset scores...meaning...each subset score factors into the main overall score. If one subset is significantly lower than the rest, a new total score should be calculated and in the write up you note why. 

All that aside, increasing fluency through daily minute facts tests can get them up to speed in no time. Playing math fact war or having them flashcard each other...things like that. 

[borninthesouth]

20 hours ago, nixpix5 said:

Well then you are in the most ideal situation. Fluency on the WCJ is tough. It is about 160 problems and students are suppose to power through as many as they can in a few minutes. This is an easy area to do poorly on. In fact, the overall score can be invalidated and shouldn't even be reported if the discrepancy is statistically significant between subset scores...meaning...each subset score factors into the main overall score. If one subset is significantly lower than the rest, a new total score should be calculated and in the write up you note why. 

All that aside, increasing fluency through daily minute facts tests can get them up to speed in no time. Playing math fact war or having them flashcard each other...things like that. 

Oh, thank you so much!!  Yes, my 5th grader was on an 8.2 level in applied math, 4.7 in calculation, and a 2.4 in fluency.  I do work with her daily and she is just slow.  I don't push her too much because she starts to cry and get upset.  But, if we go at her pace she is usually pretty calm.  :)

[nixpix5]

7 hours ago, borninthesouth said:

Oh, thank you so much!!  Yes, my 5th grader was on an 8.2 level in applied math, 4.7 in calculation, and a 2.4 in fluency.  I do work with her daily and she is just slow.  I don't push her too much because she starts to cry and get upset.  But, if we go at her pace she is usually pretty calm.  :)

Did they conduct the quantitative concepts sub test or just those 3 sub tests? 

So they used grade equivalency scoring which isn't always the best way to score the WJ. The standard scores are more reliable when looking at cluster scores. My hunch is they couldn't calculate an overall cluster score due to spread of scores. That is quite a discrepency your student has going on there. 

I like to see strong applied math scores because that means mathematical reasoning is sound which is appears is the case ;) 

Both the fluency and calculation deals with fluency. Meaning...Fluency looks at how quickly (3 min) the student can power through operations. However, calculations has a fluency component to it as well and I would expect a student struggling with fluency to do poorly on fluency and slightly below average on Calculation which is what you have there going off of not seeing the raw data myself. When I administor I like to do many cluster calculations to narrow down what the underlying sticking spot might be but in this case my bet is on fluency here. 

 

[borninthesouth]

4 hours ago, nixpix5 said:

Did they conduct the quantitative concepts sub test or just those 3 sub tests? 

So they used grade equivalency scoring which isn't always the best way to score the WJ. The standard scores are more reliable when looking at cluster scores. My hunch is they couldn't calculate an overall cluster score due to spread of scores. That is quite a discrepency your student has going on there. 

I like to see strong applied math scores because that means mathematical reasoning is sound which is appears is the case ;) 

Both the fluency and calculation deals with fluency. Meaning...Fluency looks at how quickly (3 min) the student can power through operations. However, calculations has a fluency component to it as well and I would expect a student struggling with fluency to do poorly on fluency and slightly below average on Calculation which is what you have there going off of not seeing the raw data myself. When I administor I like to do many cluster calculations to narrow down what the underlying sticking spot might be but in this case my bet is on fluency here. 

 

Thank you so much!!  So very helpful!