shinyhappypeople 4,960 Report post Posted April 4 14 yo DD has been doing *so well* with TT for the last couple of years, but now, in TT7 things are starting to fall apart. She's on lesson 20. It's not that the concepts are too difficult. She understands how to solve the problems, but the numbers have gotten so much larger that doing long division or long multiplication is really taxing her working memory. So, between her low WM and slow processing speed, she might spend 5 minutes on a long division problem and still get it wrong because of its size. One lesson is taking an hour to complete. She's getting really discouraged. I don't blame her. I don't want to switch math programs. I need to figure out a way to make TT work for her, but I don't know how to do that :( Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

Lecka 5,403 Report post Posted April 4 I’m not familiar with TT7, but my 7th graded had extreme difficulty with lining up numbers correctly with long division. He probably didn’t do any problems correctly without support (someone sitting with him to see where he wrote the numbers). He also had lined and shaded paper. Etc. Anyway — he moved on and it has never come up again (yet). He can do shorter/easier long division problems fine. For me, I would let him use a calculator, at this point, for very long problems. It just takes too much time and he needs to be focused on whatever they are doing in math, not long division. I think it depends what the lesson is about. For my son — it’s something where we have done a lot, and he has some limitation in how well he can line things up, it is what it is, doing more isn’t going to make it better. But since 4th grade he has not had to do big long division problems. I don’t know how far that will take him, but it has worked so far. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

Lecka 5,403 Report post Posted April 4 Does she make a consistent mistake? Or is it just so long she inevitably makes a mistake somewhere? If she does know it, and she’s doing (I assume) 7th grade math, I would use a calculator, but want her to try easier long division problems so she could still have practice and not need to grab a calculator for everything. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

Lecka 5,403 Report post Posted April 4 Another idea is let her have a template to look at if she forgets what her next step is and has to sit and think of it. If she is weak on memorized math facts, I like Reflex Math. Maybe she could review math facts, I am seeing my daughter has forgotten some subtraction facts! I think you would see things like that if you watch her. But I think a calculator is an option! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

Heathermomster 4,350 Report post Posted April 4 For the long division, maybe provide a calculator. For the multiplication, provide a multiplication chart and teach her the lattice method. I recommend the TI-15 calculator. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

prairiewindmomma 22,836 Report post Posted April 4 We provided a calculator. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

kbutton 5,797 Report post Posted April 4 I would provide a calculator, but I would have her use it the way she'd use her mental math as much as possible--for instance, I would have her continue the steps of long division, but let her use the calculator to get the answer to each step. If you think her method is totally solid, and she's not going to forget, then a calculator from start to finish would be fine too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

exercise_guru 197 Report post Posted April 10 IS she using the standard algorithm? You could look at teaching her regrouping for both multiplication and division. It is very clever and I only learned it because my son had to do it for core. For some kids it can be a life saver. Another option is to ask her to work the first step of the problems then go through and check them. Then have her continue with the next step and check her problems. This allows her to chunk the problem into smaller steps and build confidence in working up to doing multistep solutions. All kids hate long division. Just to add: multistep problems are important in following a flow of mathematical and logical thinking. It takes a lot of kids awhile to get comfortable with long division and moving through it. Have her switch pen colors for each place holder for example red for first step and then green for the second step and then blue for the third step. It will click. Also when she gets the answer correct go back and have a happy dance and talk about what that answer means. Try to add some real world experience into why you would use long division. Then and only then have her use a calculator to check her work and find which color was off. Then she can self correct the exercise and learn where she got stuck. Also try some multistep story problems that use skills already acquired it helps build flexible thinking. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

shinyhappypeople 4,960 Report post Posted April 13 Sorry for the radio silence. I"m back :) She's mastered the algorithms. What happens is occasionally she'll make one tiny multiplication mistake and... poof. 5+ minutes worth of work is done the tubes. That's where her slow pace really gets in the way. It's VERY discouraging for her. She's gotten the long multiplication and division problems correct on the quizzes, so I'm officially moving her to a calculator. I should probably have her do one by hand every now and then to keep her skills up, though. She doesn't yet have her multiplication table memorized, so that's going to have to be a thing. I am open to non-babyish UNTIMED suggestions for that. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

PeterPan 19,372 Report post Posted April 13 multiplication table and calculator. Their visual memory eventually kicks in Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

exercise_guru 197 Report post Posted April 14 I would separate the two skills even though division is the opposite. I personally would not move her to a calculator I would let her use a multiplication table and do the worksheet in steps and check her work at each step. It is too bad there isn't a program that will help her catch the mistake immediately so she can fix it and not feel like she failed you could also write the answer on some cards and as she finishes each digit she could flip that card to immediately check her work. the reason why I would think this is important is because long division is the beginning of working memory and longer multi-step problems. It is important to train the brain to understand that math is a process not an answer. For multiplication I like to take a table and make it large and let them color in the ones that they know instantly. over time they color in more and more of the chart and then at the difficult ones I use rhymes. I do not recommend the one that uses a story because that caused my kids lots of problems. I also think it is worth it to just pick one of the challenging ones and practice it everyday until its mastered then add the next one. If she can I would have her work on cards where she work on factoring numbers and putting them back together . Sometimes math is like playing the piano. Practice everyday a little bit and some kids who struggle with short term memory then can get it into longterm memory by doing that. They keep it if they continue practicing. I don't let my son go the entire summer without doing times tables or it would be a problem. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

PeterPan 19,372 Report post Posted April 14 For your trivia, the way I used the calculator with my dd was to challenge her to figure out if it was faster to retrieve what was in her head (which was hard, very low processing speed) or to use the tech. So for single digits, I encouraged her to use her head or the table. For multi-digits, tech. But if I was there working with her and she started to fatigue, we went over to tech. It was really important to balance the processing speed and the FATIGUE of the work. If the dc's performance is dropping off during the lesson, that can be what you're seeing. Also, Ronit Bird has a book on multiplication. We started it but haven't gone very far. For a long time my ds wasn't developmentally ready. He didn't seem to understand concepts like having multiple of something. Now that that is there, the multiplication is clicking a little better. We probably will go through it, sure. But I just suggest it as a way to work on nailing the facts. The drawback for my ds, with drilling to automaticity, is his autism doesn't generalize it to the next setting the next manipulative, sigh. So I'm a little burnt on that. But yeah, it's a balance. RB was gold for us on add/subtr facts, so it would probably nail it for mult/div too. I'm just letting him ease into it, because I want to see if he can understand it in lots of settings. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites

lmrich 2,783 Report post Posted April 14 Let her use a calculator. I would always grab a calculator to do long division. It is a great bonus of being an adult. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites