unsinkable Posted April 14, 2018 Author Share Posted April 14, 2018 5 minutes ago, onelittlemonkey said: Has anyone heard why the cinder block wall by their garage was torn down? The neighbors have said when the family left, they torn the wall down. I don’t know what it looked like or how big it was; I’m envisioning a half-wall type thing. Anyway, I keep coming back to that wall. Did the one driving hit it with the car because she was drunk? Did they bust it up to get to the cinder blocks to use as a weight? Anyone heard more on it? The whole thing is just sad beyond belief. I hope and pray those kids were asleep and totally unaware of what was about to happen. AFAIRecall, it looked like a small retaining wall that held up part of the driveway. Did you see the picture? When I saw the picture a few days ago, it seemed like they cou!d have accidentally backed into it. A few blocks were knocked out. But I didn't really put a lot of thought into it, how it happened or the mechanism of the damage, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted April 14, 2018 Author Share Posted April 14, 2018 3 minutes ago, onelittlemonkey said: No, I didn’t see the picture. I’m going to see if I can find it. That makes me feel a little better though, that just a few blocks were off. I was coming up with different scenarios and none were good. I think domestic violence is a very real possibility in this case. It was on a media site where there was a slide show of 40+ pictures ( at the time) related to the situation. The slide show was at the top of the page, above the latest story. I just can't remember what the site was. If I find it, I'll link it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 neither of these women are innocent. Jennifer drove over the cliff - and sara was the one who pled down the child-abuse charge. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie12345 Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 On 4/10/2018 at 2:12 PM, SKL said: Second, this is another complex issue, but based on my observations and experience being in the interracial adoption community, this is something that needs to be largely child-led. Opportunities, information, and openness need to be provided, but children will differ in the degree to which they are interested, and this also changes for each child over time. It's wrong to assume my kids are going to prefer friends with similar skin color or family backgrounds. It's even more wrong to assume they will like Hispanic food or Latino music or prefer Latina role models. Being an adoptive parent, like any other kind of parent, is often more about listening to our kids than anything else. This is another thing that is easy to judge from the outside. People like me went into this thinking of all the ways we were going to keep the connection for our kids. We bought Mayan dolls and bought toys that spoke Spanish. I could fill a book. Some of that was valued by the kids, but most of it wasn't. And that's OK. When I was contemplating the idea of foster and/or adopt, it wasn't about assuming *preferences. It was about maintaining cultural connections that may or may not be appreciated at any given point in time. And not only directly for hypothetical children, but as a parent who may or may not have a need for additional perspective at any given point in time. Perhaps that varies by the age of kids at placement, but my white bio kids participate in cross cultural groups anyway. I never really asked about their "preferences", because it's been about connecting with the wider community, not about trying to like one thing more than another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umsami Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 5 hours ago, gardenmom5 said: neither of these women are innocent. Jennifer drove over the cliff - and sara was the one who pled down the child-abuse charge. Yes, but there's a gigantic difference between killing your wife and six kids and pleading down a child-abuse charge. Also, the daughter said Jennifer had hit her, but then Sarah said she did it. To me, that speaks to possible abuse of Sarah. Telling her to accept responsibility whether she did it or not. "In November 2010, an allegation of abuse surfaced again, when one of the Hart children told a teacher “that she had owies on her tummy and her back,” according to a police report. The girl said “that her mom had put her in the bathtub and turned on cold water and then hit her” with a closed fist “because she had found a penny in her pocket.” While the girl said Jennifer Hart had hit her, when interviewed, Sarah Hart said she had been the one to spank their daughter. “By Sarah’s own admission, she stated that the spanking got out of control and was not proper and was ‘too much,'” the police report stated." http://time.com/5230702/california-cliff-crash-hart-family-child-abuse/ 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 5 hours ago, umsami said: Yes, but there's a gigantic difference between killing your wife and six kids and pleading down a child-abuse charge. Also, the daughter said Jennifer had hit her, but then Sarah said she did it. To me, that speaks to possible abuse of Sarah. Telling her to accept responsibility whether she did it or not. "In November 2010, an allegation of abuse surfaced again, when one of the Hart children told a teacher “that she had owies on her tummy and her back,” according to a police report. The girl said “that her mom had put her in the bathtub and turned on cold water and then hit her” with a closed fist “because she had found a penny in her pocket.” While the girl said Jennifer Hart had hit her, when interviewed, Sarah Hart said she had been the one to spank their daughter. “By Sarah’s own admission, she stated that the spanking got out of control and was not proper and was ‘too much,'” the police report stated." http://time.com/5230702/california-cliff-crash-hart-family-child-abuse/ physically abusive people escalate to killing their victims all the time. usually with a triggering event. so - suggestions are this is a version of "the most dangerous time for an abused spouse (and children) is when they try to leave" ... or CPS starts to investigate.. . . since the CPS visit earlier in the day seems to have been what sparked them to flee. it is still possible sara was the one who "spanked" the child, as opposed to taking the fall. when spanking gets out of control, it's usually because of the parents own frustrated emotions lashing out. if jennifer was physically abusive with her too (which none of the kids ever mentioned) - I can see that happening. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 To me in the pictures Jen looks.....overbearing. Abuse by her would not surprise me. And let's face it....she did drive the vehicle over the cliff. And the 6 year old did identify her as the one who hurt her. And I find it sickening the aunt was not allowed to adopt the kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted April 14, 2018 Author Share Posted April 14, 2018 56 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said: I know someone above linked to stories about the birth mother and how the children's aunt petitioned for custody. I wrote above about how race is part of this case. When the facts began to come out, I was not surprised. The mother lost custody because of her addiction issues. A family member offered to care for the children. She made some mistakes (letting the mother interact with the children) and the state had zero tolerance and took the children away. Then the state of TX places the children with this family who lives in Minnesota. Those white parents had chance after chance and eventually murdered the children. What was the difference between the bio mother and aunt and the Harts? The Harts killed the six children. The bio mom: "According to the appeals court opinion, the children's biological mother had three older children, one of whom had several bone fractures before being removed from his mother's care, who were born before the four trying to be adopted by the aunt. Of the second group, one sibling, Jeremiah, tested positive for cocaine when he was born in 2004, leading to family and protective services becoming involved with the family again, the appeals opinion said. After the mother tested positive for cocaine when her seventh child was born in 2006, the state agency took custody of her four remaining children, and her parental rights were terminated. " The aunt: "The appeals court opinion mentions that the aunt, Priscilla Celestine, had "ample opportunities" to argue why the children should be returned to her care in prior hearings and that her fitness to care for the kids had been called into question before the caseworker visit. The opinion doesn't elaborate on what those allegations were. " Also about the aunt: "Shonda Jones, a Houston family law attorney who represented Celestine at the time, told The Oregonian/OregonLive on Thursday that she agreed the children shouldn't have stayed with their parents, but she thought the courts acted too rashly in removing them from their aunt. Jones said the mother's visit was the only infraction Celestine committed, and it occurred over a 45-minute window when the caseworker arrived at her home unannounced while the aunt made a trip to her workplace. The kids were immediately removed from the home, she said. Celestine had stable employment in Houston, no previous criminal history, raised an older daughter and had taken steps to accommodate the kids, such as moving to a larger home to care for the children, Jones said. " XXX XXX I'm wondering where is the seventh child/the fourth one who wasn't adopted by the Harts? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted April 14, 2018 Author Share Posted April 14, 2018 There is another article floating around by a woman who was fostered as a teen by the women. This prior fostered woman has also brought up some WTH questions about the 2 Hart women's behavior. This fostered woman said she went to a counseling appt. And the counselor was the one who told her she would NOT be going back to the Harts. But this was AFTER the Harts told this teen about plans to adopt the first 3 kids. The implication being, the teen was dumped for the younger kids. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 1 hour ago, Ordinary Shoes said: What was the difference between the bio mother and aunt and the Harts? Yep. The answer is pretty obvious though I'm sure there are some who (in general, not necessarily here) will argue that wasn't it. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanny Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 The Mother who was driving the car was legally drunk. The other Mother and the 3 children whose bodies were recovered have Benadryl in their systems. None of them were wearing Safety Belts. They are trying to identify the body that was recovered, to determine whether or not it is one of the other 3 children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted April 14, 2018 Author Share Posted April 14, 2018 12 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said: I read somewhere that the oldest child is now in jail. Allegedly the Harts didn't want him because he was older and starting to act out. So that boy is older than Devonte? But who raised that child when the aunt lost custody? Does that mean Sierra was the 7th baby born when the bio mom tested positive for crack cocaine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 10 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said: Supposedly the boy was the oldest of the 4 siblings. He was sent to foster care and is now in his early 20's and is in jail. I'm not sure about the age of the other kids. One of my law school classes required us to observe a day in family court. It was the saddest thing I ever seen in my life. The judge was checking on foster children. It was obvious that there was a cycle. The children were all African American. Every child had been taken from their parents because of drug issues. Several of the hearings addressed boys who were about 13 who were being moved from foster care to institutionalized settings because they were beginning to act violently. Then there were some hearings about boys who were already in these institutionalized settings who were being moved because there had been sexual abuse; either they were the victim or the abuser (after they had already been the victim). Something is very wrong with the entire system. We have a child in our family that was taken into care for truancy (her primary caregiver became incapacitated by stroke). It took over a year to get her out during which time she suffered mightily. Something is definitely wrong. 2 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz CA Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 56 minutes ago, Sneezyone said: We have a child in our family that was taken into care for truancy (her primary caregiver became incapacitated by stroke). It took over a year to get her out during which time she suffered mightily. Something is definitely wrong. Were you approached as extended family to possibly take this child or did you not qualify / or were able to take the child? I am asking out of curiosity because in my neck of the woods, relatives are approached first if they can be found and if they qualify in terms of space available and resources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 51 minutes ago, Liz CA said: Were you approached as extended family to possibly take this child or did you not qualify / or were able to take the child? I am asking out of curiosity because in my neck of the woods, relatives are approached first if they can be found and if they qualify in terms of space available and resources. We were out of state at the time but weren’t contacted, no. A local cousin had to go and ask for the child after the biological grandmother (whose parental rights had been terminated so there was no legal kinship) was given custody. She wasn’t a safe person. Maybe cousins aren’t high up on the list of possibilities? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS Mom in NC Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 On 4/9/2018 at 10:45 PM, Sneezyone said: I have a personal pet peeve with adoptive parents sharing their childrens' back stories without permission or in a way that constantly paints their families of origin in a negative light. That is also a red flag for me. It’s not sharing funny/enlightening/endearing stories common to parents in general. It’s a way to improve their own social standing and glorification when compared to the ‘savages’ (I’ve actually seen this said) who once parented them. We're adoptive Caucasian parents of a Korean adoptee. We were certified as fosterparents in our state, but took the international route instead. Fostercare seems to be doing a terrible job preparing adoptive parents when it comes a child's backstory. I hear of fostadopt parents telling this kind of things to friends and family and they go on about it with other people. It's never OK to share details of your adoptive child's backstory. Ever. What a child might want and agree to as a minor could be entirely different than what they want looking back as adults. Adoptive parents should say, "It's not my story to tell." when someone asks. By the way, don't ask. It's an outrageous boundary violation to ask an adoptive child or their family member for details of their backstory. If you've ever done it, apologize. When they're adults they can choose who to tell what if they decide to. My husband, the adoption agency, and the pediatrician and I have read our daughter's file with those details. Our bio kids, our closest friends, and our closest relatives have never been told because it's not our story to tell. Yes, general information is OK like, Chinese place children for adoption in special needs cases and because of their 1 child policy. Or Koreans place children for adoption because single parenthood isn't socially acceptable there. But details about your child's drug addicted, prostitute mother or abusive father aren't anyone else's business. Even if it's a not a terribly tragic scenario, it's not appropriate to discuss it with others. It's soooo incredibly disrespectful to your child. My step-brothers have no contact with their mother. Even if though it's entirely justifiable to be angry about her behavior toward them before contact ended, it wasn't OK for my former SIL to go on about how terrible a person their mother was. I jumped in and kept derailing the conversation even though they were 40+ year old men at the time, because I knew, as an adoptive parent with some decent parenting classes and as a decent human being, that private pain isn't for public consumption. Their intense feelings about it actually made them quiet with a neutral facial expression in that situation, where as I had been taught how conflicted kids can be about that kind of thing. They thanked me later. You know what former SIL was doing professionally at the time? She was a social worker with CPS. The training is so bad in some places. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 7 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said: We're adoptive Caucasian parents of a Korean adoptee. We were certified as fosterparents in our state, but took the international route instead. Fostercare seems to be doing a terrible job preparing adoptive parents when it comes a child's backstory. I hear of fostadopt parents telling this kind of things to friends and family and they go on about it with other people. It's never OK to share details of your adoptive child's backstory. Ever. What a child might want and agree to as a minor could be entirely different than what they want looking back as adults. Adoptive parents should say, "It's not my story to tell." when someone asks. By the way, don't ask. It's an outrageous boundary violation to ask an adoptive child or their family member for details of their backstory. If you've ever done it, apologize. When they're adults they can choose who to tell what if they decide to. My husband, the adoption agency, and the pediatrician and I have read our daughter's file with those details. Our bio kids, our closest friends, and our closest relatives have never been told because it's not our story to tell. Yes, general information is OK like, Chinese place children for adoption in special needs cases and because of their 1 child policy. Or Koreans place children for adoption because single parenthood isn't socially acceptable there. But details about your child's drug addicted, prostitute mother or abusive father aren't anyone else's business. Even if it's a not a terribly tragic scenario, it's not appropriate to discuss it with others. It's soooo incredibly disrespectful to your child. My step-brothers have no contact with their mother. Even if though it's entirely justifiable to be angry about her behavior toward them before contact ended, it wasn't OK for my former SIL to go on about how terrible a person their mother was. I jumped in and kept derailing the conversation even though they were 40+ year old men at the time, because I knew, as an adoptive parent with some decent parenting classes and as a decent human being, that private pain isn't for public consumption. Their intense feelings about it actually made them quiet with a neutral facial expression in that situation, where as I had been taught how conflicted kids can be about that kind of thing. They thanked me later. You know what former SIL was doing professionally at the time? She was a social worker with CPS. The training is so bad in some places. Ugh, liking wasn't enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS Mom in NC Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 One way to get good training as a social worker, agency worker, or adoptive parent, is to listen to adult adoptees. Korean adoptees have done an excellent job of networking and innovating adoption policy for new adoptees. http://www.ikaa.org/start/ Some of their workshops are open to adoption workers of all types, but only adoptees may speak during a workshop. Anyone else must be there to listen. It seems to be effective. It's one of the many reasons we chose Korean adoption. We wanted our child to have a thriving network to plug into. Our agency and our local Korean immigrant community have several heritage activities per year that the adoptees and their families are invited to. There are also Korean adoptee heritage camps available across the US for adoptees and their families. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 Why the bio family lost the children - the bio mom thinks it has to do with the fact that she has a long history including losing her 3 oldest kids due to abuse etc. I could definitely understand them taking the younger ones after finding the mom is back to her old behavior. Babies die in cases like that. As for the aunt, the case worker made an unannounced visit and the mom was there alone with the kids. The bio fam says it only ever happened once for 45 minutes. Hard to believe that happened to be the time the unannounced visit was made. If I were the case worker, I would suspect this was the new arrangement and case workers were being lied to. Happens all the time. Sorry. Obviously the harts were not a good placement, but that does not mean the kids were safe with the bio family. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz CA Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 2 hours ago, Sneezyone said: We were out of state at the time but weren’t contacted, no. A local cousin had to go and ask for the child after the biological grandmother (whose parental rights had been terminated so there was no legal kinship) was given custody. She wasn’t a safe person. Maybe cousins aren’t high up on the list of possibilities? I think there is some kind "hierarchy" they follow here too. Maternal and paternal grandparents are possibly first on the list, then other extended family members provided they qualify. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted April 18, 2018 Author Share Posted April 18, 2018 Sierra Hart is confirmed dead; it was her body found in water a few days ago. :-( http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2018/04/authorities_id_female_found_in.html#incart_most-read_ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vonfirmath Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 Another body has been found near the crash. http://www.koin.com/news/crashes/more-remains-found-near-the-hart-family-crash-site/1171806359 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz CA Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 7 minutes ago, vonfirmath said: Another body has been found near the crash. http://www.koin.com/news/crashes/more-remains-found-near-the-hart-family-crash-site/1171806359 Sigh. More are missing, aren't they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravin Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 46 minutes ago, Liz CA said: Sigh. More are missing, aren't they? If this is another of the Hart children, then there is just one still missing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Liz CA said: Sigh. More are missing, aren't they? I think that would leave one missing. those children do have other family members. for their sakes, I'm glad the last bodies are being found. I hope the last one turns up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela H in Texas Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 Hopefully this is one of the missing two and the last child is found soon. Hopefully they can all be laid to rest. I didn't read y'all's thread on the incident (haven't been very active on the WTM boards in awhile); but I'm terribly saddened that these children were so failed by so many adults who could have made a difference in their lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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