S/O CA admissions: article on does where you attend college matter?

[8filltheheart]

http://time.com/5210848/prestigious-college-doesnt-matter/

 

I don't agree with all of the points in the article, but mainly b/c they are scenarios that are completely disconnected from our homeschool reality.  (We don't have a focus on grades at all, so that one is a hard one for me to even begin to relate to. And, well, my kids already march to their own drummer and immerse themselves in what they love vs. checking off boxes.)

 

But, these 2 quotes: 

 

 

 simply telling kids the truth — giving them an accurate model of reality, including the advantages of being a good student — increases their flexibility and drive. It motivates kids with high aspirations to shift their emphasis from achieving for its own sake to educating themselves so that they can make an important contribution.

  

 

 

Children are much more energized when they envision a future that is in line with their own values than when they dutifully do whatever they believe they have to do to live up to their parents’ or teachers’ or college admissions boards’ expectations. We don’t inspire our kids through fear. We inspire them by helping them to focus on getting better at something, rather than being the best, and by encouraging them to immerse themselves in something they love.

 

reminded me of the CA college thread. 

 

On CC, this article is being discussed and the posters are adamant that the article's premise is false. 

Edited March 22, 2018 by 8FillTheHeart

[snowbeltmom]

Whether the premise is false or not depends on the career. For most careers, where you go to college doesn't matter -it's the degree that counts. In other fields, where you go to school matters a great deal.

[8filltheheart]

Sure, maybe a handful, but the mania that can surround admissions does not suggest a handful, but the majority.

 

I think the bigger question that it begs is whether or not the "perfect transcript/resume/successes" are benefiting students at large. I am not talking about the kids that are doing what they are doing naturally b/c it is who they are. Those kids are already functioning that way. But, how does this play out in the lives of the majority of kids who are pressured into following suit bc they will be considered failures if they don't keep up and follow the exact same pursuits?

 

How many students would be better served by stressing less about being the "perfect applicant" and spending more time actually exploring activities and nurturing their own interests? How much is lost compared to gained with the current drive toward long lists of accomplishments?

Edited March 22, 2018 by 8FillTheHeart

[Roadrunner]

Whether the premise is false or not depends on the career. For most careers, where you go to college doesn't matter -it's the degree that counts. In other fields, where you go to school matters a great deal.

I want to agree wing this and add that location also matters. I think this is a huge country with very different localized job markets.

[Crimson Wife]

The headline is pure "clickbait" and doesn't match the actual article.

 

I agree with the article but disagree with the headline.

 

My DH gets calls from recruiters frequently. When he gets a call for a position that isn't a good "fit" for him but would be great for one of his friends, he always tells the recruiter to reach out to the friend. There have been NUMEROUS cases where the recruiter passes on the friend based on the friend's undergraduate college even though the individual has an Ivy League MBA and good work experience. DH thinks the snobbery about undergraduate alma maters is stupid since it speaks more to parental wealth than actual merit but it's the nature of the industry. The only reason he was able to attend Stanford undergrad rather than the local public college his siblings attended is because he spent 5 years in the Army afterwards. If he hadn't qualified for military service, he'd have been stuck going there too.

[Farrar]

I once overheard a woman speaking on the phone to - I'm pretty sure it was her nephew or cousin or some relation like that. The gist of the conversation was that he was about to graduate from college. She was a lawyer and he was considering law school. She told him with complete seriousness that with his 3.2 (or whatever it was, something like that) GPA, that his life was "over." He should just give up. What was he doing anyway? Not only would he never get into a law school, he'd probably never be a success in any way. Why did he waste his time through college, she wanted to know. Her tone of voice was just incredulous throughout, as if she couldn't believe she was related to this complete waste of breath.

 

As a society, we peddle this version of success on kids and young adults so hard. It's so sad.

 

I mean, yeah, if you don't get certain grades or go to certain schools, particular paths can close. But success is a wide ranging thing that has a lot of potential avenues.

[8filltheheart]

This article offers another perspective toward the future of education. It raises the question about the validity of our traditional 4 yr degree programs in the rapidly changing world. Is the current focus still the best approach? Its proposal is lifelong learning and constant retraining. Its proposal actually seems to suggest to me that adaptability and quickly acquiring new skills may end up being key to successful careers. It does make me stop and wonder if we will start to see a rise in a new hybrid of degrees with more computing technology being integrated into all degree programs than you see currently.

 

The very end of the article is a concise summary:

“While we don’t know what skills will be required for the human-centric jobs of the future [such as health care, management consultants, and financial planners],†said Alssid, who has spent more than two decades in the workforce-development field, “we do know that these jobs will require a highly adaptable workforce that can think critically, creatively, and work collaboratively to find solutions to rapidly developing, complex problems.â€

 

Such skills, often referred to as “soft skills,†are typically seen in liberal-arts graduates, but those individuals often lack the technical skills employers want. Alssid said a hybrid of liberal-arts and technical education is what is most needed in training programs to allow workers to better navigate the ambiguity of the future job market. That’s the goal of his school’s partnership with Infosys—to introduce liberal-arts students to technical fields that they might not have previously considered, while other programs will introduce the flexibility of the liberal arts to technical work.

Interesting blend of schools being used.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2018/03/the-third-education-revolution/556091/

[SeaConquest]

This article offers another perspective toward the future of education. It raises the question about the validity of our traditional 4 yr degree programs in the rapidly changing world. Is the current focus still the best approach? Its proposal is lifelong learning and constant retraining. Its proposal actually seems to suggest to me that adaptability and quickly acquiring new skills may end up being key to successful careers. It does make me stop and wonder if we will start to see a rise in a new hybrid of degrees with more computing technology being integrated into all degree programs than you see currently.

 

The very end of the article is a concise summary:

 

Interesting blend of schools being used.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2018/03/the-third-education-revolution/556091/

 

Not entirely as described in the article, but I recently decided to forego a traditional, brick and mortar, nursing school (as a second career) for a hybrid program. All didactic courses are online with clinical classes completed in intensive bursts at partner hospitals. The didactic courses are also competency-based, so when you are ready for the exam, you take it. This enables people to move at their own pace through the coursework and to remain employed during the program (or, in my case, to continue homeschooling), even while going to school full-time. Because much of it is done online, tuition is very reasonable. Also, unlike with my previous profession (the law), nursing employers don't care about fancy pedigrees.

 

This is the program:

 

https://www.wgu.edu/online-nursing-health-degrees/rn-prelicensure-nursing-bachelors-program.html

 

I think we will continue to see more of these types of innovative programs, in a variety of industries.

Edited March 23, 2018 by SeaConquest

[Crimson Wife]

Have you ever asked your doc where they went to school or left the practice after you examined the degree on the wall...can you even name where your doc went to school? For those of you with kids in school, have you ever asked where the teachers went to school? The answer for the vast majority of people is that they don’t ask. That’s because most people trust that the BA or BS or MD or whatever, is good enough and that the school that gave it gave the doc or teacher or aircraft mechanic enough info to get that degree.

When researching providers I *ALWAYS* look at where the doctor did his/her residency, and the ones who did good residencies disproportionately come from the top medical schools. I would not rule out a provider based on school but I have found that most of the ones who did a residency at a top hospital are graduates of Harvard/Stanford/UCSF/etc.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JanetC]

I think calling this an article is generous. It's a brief opinion piece that could really be fleshed out more thoroughly.

 

Yes, I do think many kids are too externally motivated by fear of failure, whether that failure means getting D's or an A minus, not getting into a top college, or just disappointing their parents.

 

Finding a way to say, "yes, good grades have these benefits, but the world doesn't end if you don't," is not a bad thing. A realistic worldview should include attending lower ranked schools or community college, seeking an apprenticeship, or starting your own business as equally valid life options to getting into a "top" school. Kids post on CC that they failed a calculus test so they're going to end up homeless and some of them are only slightly exaggerating. It's hard for teens to get that wider perspective especially when the adults around them are also thinking too narrowly.

[SoCal_Bear]

At least in business (my experience) and in tech (my husband - has 200 people working for him at one of the top places to work in Fortune 500), there is definitely a preference for certain schools in recruiting. It's about getting your foot in the door. It's not impossible coming from a lower ranked school) it is harder if you are, targeting certain employers out there.

Edited March 23, 2018 by calbear

[RoundAbout]

I think it can matter. My DH is getting an MFA in Creative Writing at a top program. The access to award winning authors, agents, publishing connections, etc. would be hard to beat elsewhere. He has National Book Award nominees reading his stuff. That's not something he would be to get at directional state U. The name and recommendations also help when applying for arts fellowships. 

 

Same for my graduate degree from Georgetown - if you want to work in government or think tanks, the alumni network, letters of rec, etc. helps a ton in addition to the brand name.

 

I think for things where there is a clear certification process like law, medicine, or engineering it matters less. Or where a portfolio matters more than degree. An example of the latter is my friend who is 26 and earning close to a six figure salary in graphic design with an art history degree from a state university.

 

So I guess my conclusion? It depends.

 

[kiana]

I really find "doesn't matter" somewhat specious. It does, somewhat. But I would restate it as "may matter less than you think". 

 

For example, if you want to be a researcher in a subject, it isn't necessary to go to the Ivy Leagues, although it's nice if you can. But it's important that you attend a school with a sufficient student population to support graduate-school-bound students. If your school only offers barely enough classes to complete the major, or if they don't teach the classes at a sufficiently rigorous level, it matters. Major state college? Probably fine. Compass direction State College? Probably not the best choice. This is especially relevant for junior and senior years, unless you are a freshman who's entering with a couple of year's credit in your major (in which case you're probably looking at flagship state colleges anyway). 

 

On the other hand, if you want to be an elementary school teacher, you are not expecting to be paid well. You should probably choose the most affordable program that has a good passing rate on certification exams and job placement. 

 

If you want to go into politics or some kinds of business, the connections are super important. 

 

If you want to go into performing arts, you really, really need an institution that can support your learning and provide you with the exposure that you need. Here, though, it's actually pretty common for regional schools to have some absolutely top-notch teachers/practitioners/programs (for example, one of the CC's has a just amazing art program), but you do need to do your research. 

 

And so on. 

Edited March 23, 2018 by kiana

[8filltheheart]

I think there is a difference between UG and grad school. Up thread there was mention of med school. Med school admission is based on GPA, MCAT, etc, not UG institution. (One of ds's friends at Bama was accepted into 5 MD/PhD programs including Harvard's.) Grad programs in STEM are going to be focused on UG research, courses completed, GPA, LOR, etc. (He and several of his friends have all been accepted into top grad programs.)

Our experience with engineering (chemical, anyway) is that institution has not mattered.

For all of them what has mattered is their own personal achievements while UGs.

Edited March 23, 2018 by 8FillTheHeart

[Farrar]

Even when the network of connections you get matters, it's not always the schools you think of as being the places that are going to give you the right connections for the job. I've known people who attended smaller, lesser known schools with particular specialties that got a ton more support in finding jobs than people who attended larger, prestigious schools that people think of as being "good for connections."

[EKS]

Grades are important because they are being used as a proxy in people's minds for the things that are *actually* important: intelligence, grit, and the ability to deal with different types of people. 

 

Generally (and we're speaking in generalities here) you need to be intelligent to get high grades in the first place, and to get *consistently* high grades, the kind the 4.0s are made of, you need both grit and to be able to please all different sorts of people (teachers) with all different sorts of expectations as well.  

 

High high school grades get you into (theoretically) a "good" college, which can then be used as an easy substitute for determining whether you've got all three.

 

It's not a perfect system, but people who are sifting through hundreds of resumes need something easy like alma mater that narrows the field quickly.

[8filltheheart]

People who are sifting through hundreds of UG degree resumes based on college attendance are filtering based on the ability or willingness of parents to pay their EFC if the schools are non-merit aid schools.

[JanetC]

I don't think the article was saying "top grades and top schools are not valuable" so much as that the other paths out there are seriously underrated.

 

Remember: Stanford or University of Kentucky is not a life choice for most kids. 95% of applicants to the Ivies are rejected. We can make those kids feel like total failures or we can say, "Yeah, Harvard would've been great, kid. A degree from the state university is valuable in its own right." Good things happen to kids who work hard and do their best.

 

Somehow we manage to have thousands of kids participating in sports and we don't make everyone who doesn't qualify for the Olympics feel like a failure. Somehow, qualifying for the state meet is still a worthy accomplishment, and we tell kids the work they did as an athlete and team member will serve them well anywhere they end up in life.

[JanetC]

 

When he gets a call for a position that isn't a good "fit" for him but would be great for one of his friends, he always tells the recruiter to reach out to the friend. There have been NUMEROUS cases where the recruiter passes on the friend based on the friend's undergraduate college even though the individual has an Ivy League MBA and good work experience. DH thinks the snobbery about undergraduate alma maters is stupid since it speaks more to parental wealth than actual merit but it's the nature of the industry.

When researching providers I *ALWAYS* look at where the doctor did his/her residency, and the ones who did good residencies disproportionately come from the top medical schools. I would not rule out a provider based on school but I have found that most of the ones who did a residency at a top hospital are graduates of Harvard/Stanford/UCSF/etc.

 

  

 

I find it interesting that you criticize shopping-by-pedigree in one post, then happily admit to engaging in just that practice in your next post. We all fall into the trap of "where you go is who you are" despite the book to the contrary.

 

I'm remembering the part of Steve Jobs' biography where he got the liver transplant. He got the surgery by taking leave from Apple and moving to Tennessee where the transplant list was shorter. One of the things Laurene said was that the care he received in Tennessee was better than the care he received at Stanford. The doctors at Tennessee worked as a team and coordinated with each other while each specialist at Stanford cared about his own little piece of the puzzle and nobody tried to pull together the big picture.

[teachermom2834]

My kids couldn't afford a top school even if they could get in. They go to best school for them that they can afford.

 

They actually are both looking at majors that supposedly it does matter where they go. Oh well. I have met lots of successful happy people who didn't attend fancy schools. We live in the south and no one is looking to move to NYC.

 

Sure, Penn would be better than tiny private school or state U for business.

 

What my kids have is grit and what they know is that they have to hustle and seize every opportunity available. I'm not worried, honestly. They'll find their way.

 

But to discourage them from attending at all if they can't afford prestigious school? Or to not pursue their intended major because they have no future not coming from a fancy school? Nope.

 

Even if they have to go to grad school that would be cheaper than taking on the loans it would require to go to a top school.

[daijobu]

Have you ever asked your doc where they went to school or left the practice after you examined the degree on the wall...can you even name where your doc went to school? For those of you with kids in school, have you ever asked where the teachers went to school? The answer for the vast majority of people is that they don’t ask. That’s because most people trust that the BA or BS or MD or whatever, is good enough and that the school that gave it gave the doc or teacher or aircraft mechanic enough info to get that degree.

 

 

I didn't need to ask; I checked my dd's pediatrician on the website:  Stanford undergrad and UCSD Med.  She trained in pediatrics at UCSF.  

 

I outsourced my dd's writing to a tutor who got her PhD in English from Brandeis.  

 

So yes,  I do check these things.  

[katilac]

When researching providers I *ALWAYS* look at where the doctor did his/her residency, and the ones who did good residencies disproportionately come from the top medical schools. 

 

 

I didn't need to ask; I checked my dd's pediatrician on the website:  Stanford undergrad and UCSD Med.  She trained in pediatrics at UCSF.  

 

Jeez, I'm a slacker. I just try to glance at the diplomas on the wall and make sure they're spelled correctly. 

[8filltheheart]

Lol!

[nixpix5]

For physicians it tends to matter. Not only that but where you do your residency matters.

 

For investment banking, stockbrokers and the like it can help get competitive positions and internships that make or break a career.

 

Everybody else? Not so much with a few exceptions. Being in academia at a state college or prestigious private college typically means you better have come from somewhere slightly worthwhile.

 

I have found hardly anyone asks me where I went to college. Once I have been offered the job I typically submit my transcripts and copies of my degrees but it isn't the reason I got the job.

 

Experience counts. Experience while an undergrad and landing competitive internships is often key. Networking networking networking. I went out of my way in college to get to know my professors and to get out in the community and do informational interviews followed up with "thank you for taking the time to let me interview you about your company and position" notes. The old saying "it's not what you know but who you know" still holds true.

Edited March 24, 2018 by nixpix5

[Crimson Wife]

I find it interesting that you criticize shopping-by-pedigree in one post, then happily admit to engaging in just that practice in your next post. We all fall into the trap of "where you go is who you are" despite the book to the contrary.

WORK EXPERIENCE is what I am looking at wrt to doctors.

 

If they did their residency at a top hospital, I don’t care where they went to medical school.

 

Conversely, if they did their residency at some podunk hospital I never heard of, I don’t care if they graduated from Harvard or Stanford.

 

I am just saying that the doctors who did good residencies disproportionately attended top medical schools.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited March 24, 2018 by Crimson Wife

[SoCal_Bear]

I completely get why AAs are so fixated on what school. There are serious headwinds they face with respect to what we call the bamboo ceiling (glass ceiling) in making gains in the C-suite level positions. They are banking that school credentials will give them that extra leverage to try to get their foot in the door.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-lee-ramakrishnan-asian-american-prestige-20180327-story.html