Homeschool vs Public School for ADHD/ODD

[PeterPan]

There's discussion that the stress response in autism is more than a cortisol release and fright/flight, that there's a difference at the genetic level. It gets back to the whole fever thing (autism symptoms improving with fever) and the drug they're trying to create. The university and professor behind that has video lectures. "Cell danger response" is what they talk about. 

 

So yes, no matter what the cause(s), a behaviorist is ALWAYS looking at how to reduce stress. Stress impedes learning and makes everything glitch up. It's something our behaviorist has talked about with ds, that homeschooling (vs. some other options we did) is good for him because his stress is down. We still have demands, still get stuff down, but the way we do it reduces stress. 

 

Other people will say this, but I'll say it took. Working with him is sort of like working with a little adult. You end up needing to do a lot more collaboration and choice and involvement in the process. 

[TKDmom]

If she cannot verbalize well in general, it does sound like autism or anyway something other (or in addition to) ADHD/ODD going on.

 

 

 

If she can generally verbalize well about things, but just not about why she hates school, then you might be able to get at more specifics by asking her very specific questions--or even by trying to figure out what parts are okay.

 

Perhaps go through all the kids and ask her what each of them is like and determine if any of them are nice to her. Who does she eat lunch with and where? Who does she sit next to in each class or activity she has and what is that person like? How does she perceive each of her teachers? Has anyone called her or anyone else names? Has anyone been mean to her or anyone else? etc.

 

It sounds like there could be some sort of bullying or social ostracism or isolation going on to have the sort of reaction that even that one sentence gives as a clue.

 

I think if schoolwork is just boring or too hard you'd be unlikely to get such a vehement sentence. To me that seems like a red flag of something going on that is emotionally or socially painful.

 

It would help a lot, I think, to find out what. If bullying, then she should IMO be taken out of the school (and they should be spoken to about it). If she cannot make a friend, then she needs some social instructional help and supports for how to do that. If she's reacting over strongly to something that is perhaps negative, but not bullying, then she needs help learning how to cope. etc.

 

 

Does she have siblings or other kids you know at same school who might be more articulate and have a clue about what is going on?

 

 

 

 

Are there any other school options, or is it that school or homeschool and that is it?

I’ve talked with her in the past about whether or not anyone is being mean to her and she says no. Today, I was driving her to school late, and asking more specific questions. Is your teacher mean? Is the lunch lady man? Is the school secretary mean?... she laughed at some of these. Then.. are any of the boys in your class mean to you? No. They just don’t interact with her. Are any of the girls in your class mean to you?... she refused to answer. Then when we got to the school she told me all about this one girl who is so mean to her, except when the teacher is around—then this girl is super nice and dd hates people like that more than anything (I have to agree). Then she begged and begged me not to make her go. Sigh...

So I have something to work with, knowing the name of one girl who goes out of her way to be nasty.

 

For school options, I have no desire to drive her to a different public school, and private is not an option. She has friends here and it’s a good school. She just hates going right now.

[PeterPan]

Autism research – Naviaux Lab  Here's the research stuff on the cell danger response. The guy behind it is Naviaux and the drug is suramin.

 

My ds does have this improvement when he has high fevers. And just anecdotally, I know people with autism who find improvement with regular use of steam rooms.

Edited March 23, 2018 by PeterPan

[TKDmom]

Another thing I realized this morning. When she was in 2nd grade we were living in a rental—it was a furnished townhome and dd8 had to share a queen-sized bed with a sibling. She slept so much better with a warm body next to her. Her quality of sleep is awful—she has been visiting me in the night since she was old enough to get out of a crib. Last year, when she shared a bed is the only stretch of time I’ve slept through the night since I started having kids. I know that lack of sleep makes her more difficult to live with on school days. Ideally, she would go to a school at 10am.

 

I just bought a kit to make a weighted blanket. I’m hoping that will help her stay asleep at night.

[TKDmom]

Autism research – Naviaux Lab Here's the research stuff on the cell danger response. The guy behind it is Naviaux and the drug is suramin.

 

My ds does have this improvement when he has high fevers. And just anecdotally, I know people with autism who find improvement with regular use of steam rooms.

Like your DS behaves more like a typical child or he’s just more sedate? I’ll go read the article now. I’m just curious, because life is always easier when dd has a fever, but I assume it’s because she’s to tired to do much besides nap and watch tv.

[PeterPan]

What does it mean for the girl to be mean? It's sort of a loaded term. She says things that are untrue? She doesn't include you in activities? 

 

Now it could be she's being bullied or being treated unkindly, yes. But it's also true that people with ASD can have social thinking issues that sort of skew what they expect from people. Like they might expect to sort of own a friendship. So then if that person is friends with someone else, that person is being mean or unfaithful. There can be weird things there, expectations. 

 

And instead of using b/w terms (good, bad, mean, nice), how about on a scale of 1-10 meanness, HOW mean is she? Like she's so mean she's trying to KILL you and you need to call the police? Or she's mean like she stole things out of your locker (a 7)? Or she's mean like she didn't choose you for the softball team (3)? Or she's mean like she doesn't say hi to you every time (1)?

 

If this is a ps, you have the legal right to make a written request for evals. They can run some pragmatics on her and get her some social thinking and social skills intervention, irrespective of diagnosis.

[PeterPan]

Like your DS behaves more like a typical child or he’s just more sedate? I’ll go read the article now. I’m just curious, because life is always easier when dd has a fever, but I assume it’s because she’s to tired to do much besides nap and watch tv.

 

That's what I thought, but then I really watched it this time. It started when he had the fever and continued on another full day, even when he was feeling better. I think it was the heat.

 

Around here, the steam room is in the adult (18 and up) locker rooms. You might see what you can get access to. There are other methods they're pursuing now too with anti-purinergic drugs, something from broccoli, blah blah. I'm just saying, for adults, for anybody with access, the steam room is worth trying. But we're talking like a one day, next day is good kinda thing. We're not talking about do it once a week and you're like wow my kid is normal. And none of the data on the drugs trials is very impressive (to me at least) either. That's why I like the steam room.

 

You have other tools. Mindfulness, like taking her to someone and learning really how to do mindfulness, can be good. Social Thinking intervention. RDI. ABA. You've got a variety of tools. I'm kinda losing the strand of the thread though, sorry. My mind is lost in rabbit trails of narrative language and sentence complexity.

 

How is her language? How is her ability to express pain, express what she's feeling, express what she's concerned about, etc.? My ds just had 2 standard deviations of discrepancy between his ability to *comprehend* a narrative and his ability to *produce* one. We're constantly running into issues where he can't get things into words. If someone is having a hard time and frustrated, that just COMPOUNDS it to have language issues holding them back and problem solving issues holding them back. But to meet my ds and just gab? You'd NEVER suspect he has these issues. He scripts and has massive amounts of memorized language in his head. But the language issues are still there. Super common with these super bright kids.

 

So when you've got behavior problems and you've got someone saying vague things, that's what I wonder about, language holding them back. And that is so spectrum. 

[PeterPan]

Back to the heat thing. Other things that work? Put 'em outside working in the summer. Like I really think it can be that blatant. 

 

I didn't use to tolerate heat btw. There can be this sort of perverse, inverse issue where the person would benefit from the heat exposure (to cause the body to make the heat shock proteins), but the person's sensory can't handle that. You build up that tolerance slowly. Be safe obviously, but I'm just noting that can be an issue.

[PeterPan]

It's not too late to get language tested on her, btw. There would be language tests for that. I'm really keen on SLPs for digging in on this stuff. You can get stuff explained you really don't expect. Psychs are kind of, well you don't necessarily learn as much. 

[TKDmom]

What does it mean for the girl to be mean? It's sort of a loaded term. She says things that are untrue? She doesn't include you in activities?

 

Now it could be she's being bullied or being treated unkindly, yes. But it's also true that people with ASD can have social thinking issues that sort of skew what they expect from people. Like they might expect to sort of own a friendship. So then if that person is friends with someone else, that person is being mean or unfaithful. There can be weird things there, expectations.

 

And instead of using b/w terms (good, bad, mean, nice), how about on a scale of 1-10 meanness, HOW mean is she? Like she's so mean she's trying to KILL you and you need to call the police? Or she's mean like she stole things out of your locker (a 7)? Or she's mean like she didn't choose you for the softball team (3)? Or she's mean like she doesn't say hi to you every time (1)?

 

If this is a ps, you have the legal right to make a written request for evals. They can run some pragmatics on her and get her some social thinking and social skills intervention, irrespective of diagnosis.

I’ll tease out degree this afternoon. But basically what she said was that this girl tells her to go away all the time. She wants to play with friend A, but girl B is playing with her and won’t let dd join in. Or dd is playing with girl A, and girl B comes up and tells dd to go away so that A and B can play. If that makes any sense... She had about 2 min to tell me about it, but it sounds like dd is being treated as a third wheel, and she just goes away when she’s told to go.

[Lecka]

That's just horrible!  I hope things get better for her!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

That does give you something to work with!

 

The weighted blanket sounds like a great idea, too . 

 

Some people get pets to sleep with, but that can be complicated if she isn't the pet's favorite.  When it works out it can be really good, though.  

 

Now I'm going to say something negative.  This is an age where some kids begin to struggle more, because social demands are going up.  Kids are playing more with particular friends and less as part of big groups or with different kids every day.  That could be a factor.  

 

I hope you can find out more over the weekend and decide next steps!!!!!!!!!!

[Lecka]

Also, it does make sense.  I have a 9-year-old daughter in 3rd grade, and she tells me similar things.  But she is very self-possessed, a classic girl who has two brothers and has to stand up for herself at home, and she will make some retort or choose to play with other kids.  I think recently she has had a girl tell her to go away and she has said she's not going to go away, she was already there.  

 

My daughter is also not a sensitive kid.  I can really see how things she says or does, without any particular malice, would be very hurtful to a more sensitive child.  

 

This year there has been one boy that she got so frustrated with she wouldn't play with him anymore.  But these other girls where sometimes they are mean and she doens't play with them, aren't so mean that she is playing with them again a week later.  There has been a lot of switching around of best friends, too.  

 

It's new to me with having a girl and she actually tells me about what happened at school.

 

So I do think, it sounds like that girl is at fault, but there might also be things you coud work on with your daughter, for things she could say, or seeking out other girls to play with.

 

I do think it's very appropriate for you to speak with the school, too, maybe the counselor or someone like that as well as the teacher, since she is so distressed. 

 

Also, my impression is that the classroom teacher has no idea what all the girls are doing or talking about at recess.  I don't know if she is out there (we have moved and I don't know the system here) or if they are just out of earshot.  Earlier this year the teacher said how quiet she was in class, and I was thinking "I know she isn't quiet when it is kids playing."      

[Targhee]

One of my adhd kids does better at home, is compliant, likes low sensory environment. One is split between the two - he does well at school because he’s anxious and it heightens his attention, but the other half the day while he’s home we are at loggers often and he’s extremely distracted. Yet he wants to stay home. The third adhd kid does better at school. This is her second year. I will say though that as comfort increases and anxiety decreases she has been talking a lot more, dropping the ball with some assignments - still doing really well, but starting to slip. I can’t be certain that it is because anxiety has gone down or if it’s adolescence coming on.

[Targhee]

Also, all the kids are in ps at this point. So it would just be the two of us if I brought her home. I tried to homeschool her two years ago, but she resented all the time I spent working with older kids.

It is mostly just DS and me during the day (he has band and science at the school, sisters are half or full time public). He WANTS to be home, even though we fight, argue, there’s often yelling, not really what I think is a relaxed learning environment. I think it’s because of the anxiety he feels st school. However, that same anxiety keeps him attentive and he’s doing really well there. So, when he comes home it’s like he can let down all the tension (and off load onto me 🙄). Have you considered therapy? CBT is helpful for DS.