Anyone read the memoir Educated by Tara W. Want to discuss? I’m bothered about some things.

[Ginevra]

Obviously, spoiler alert. If you don’t want the book spoiled, stop reading now.

 

 

 

 

 

I finished reading this memoir a few days or a week ago. It may be unfortunate in that I only recently read the memoir The Glass Castle, by Jeanette Wells; this book is in some ways similar, but it is perhaps unfair to compare the two. For one thing, I feel that Glass Castle was a far better story, yet part of the reason it was a “better†story was because the dysfunction in the Wells family was much more multi-faceted than in the Westover family. But it feels wrong to say one is a “better†book because the ways in which the Wells family was messed up were further-reaching.

 

Westover’s book is entitled Educated, which seems to signify that the lack of an actual education was the largest dysfunctional factor in their lives, yet it is not. It is the abuse suffered at the hands of her brother (at minimum) plus her father and mother with their sympatico mental disorders that is the major sorce of dysfunction in the Westover family. (This aspect of the book - parental mental disorders - is the one part that seems most similar to Glass Castle to me.) I also, sadly, have a sneaking suspicion that Westover has not revealed all of the abuse that happened. Her “fleeing†response and her mental tapes calling herself a “wh@re†seem to point to s€xual abuse.

 

Now for the bonus oddity: on Amazon, there is a review of Educated allegedly posted by Tara Westover’s brother, Tyler, who was one of the siblings not estranged from her. She actually dedicated the book to Tyler. But he picks her book apart in ways that make no sense to me and offer no insight. He “clarifies†some of her claims, arguing moot points. I do not understand the purpose of his review. It makes me think he is bitter that she wrote a memoir and he did not.

 

Anyone else read the book feeling aggitated by it?

[Guest]

I read the book as well and think I'm still processing it. Her recollections and admissions that everyone has conflicting accounts made me more leary of her story than I liked. As much as I'd like to give her the benefit of the doubt, I think there is a lot more to the story on multiple fronts.

 

And yes, I did wonder if her brother sexually abused her too. I think that's part of why I feel so uncomfortable doubting any part of her story, but something just didn't sit right with me. I can't quite put my finger on what though. Anytime someone like this steps forward, I feel a bit bad to be skeptical, but this isn't a book I recommended to anyone after I read it. It started out one way and the more I read the more I felt like I was going down a hole and wasn't quite sure which way was up or down. I get that someone brought up in that sort of dysfunction is not going to react the same way a person to whom such a situation is a completely foreign concept, so I wouldn't ever judge her story. But like I said, something just felt, OFF.

Yes, I agree; it bothered me more that there were notes as to uncertainties, even though ALL of our memories are uncertain. It introduced an element of doubt that I haven’t gotten from other memoirs.

 

If you get a chance, look for the review on Amazon. It is rated five stars and he says Tyler W. In the author of the review name. There are also a billion comments on his review, many of whom I agree with. Assuming it is indeed her brother, it seems utterly wrong for him to use Amazon review space to what seems to me like sibling bicker about how thing really were when they were growing up.

[Corraleno]

I haven't read the book yet (although I did read the brother's review), so you can take what I say with a grain of salt, but it doesn't surprise me at all that two kids in the same family would have different impressions of their childhood.

 

I grew up in a dysfunctional family with an NPD mother, and my experience as the "scapegoat" child was vastly different from my "golden child" sister's. None of my siblings had any idea that I was sexually abused, and that my mother protected the abuser, until just a few years ago. My sister, who is still very close to my mother, would describe her childhood as happy and pretty carefree. She says she remembers "an occasional spanking" but does not remember seeing any of the beatings that I and one of my brothers received. I was beaten with sticks, boards, belts, kitchen utensils, hairbrushes, and pretty much anything else within arms reach if I so much as "looked at my mother wrong." I was hit in the face so often it took years after I left home before I stopped flinching if anyone moved a hand near my face. I could write an accurate memoir of my childhood that my sister might assume was 80% invented, because her own experience was so vastly different from mine. I'm honestly not even sure she believes me about the sexual abuse, because she said she can't believe my mother would have responded the way she did (protecting the abuser).

 

Anyone who deals with an NPD parent knows that NPDs are very careful about who gets to see the "dark side" and who doesn't, and they are so good at gaslighting that victims often tend to doubt their own memories of events. So the fact that an author may express doubts about her own memories or interpretations of events would not make me think she is purposely twisting the truth, but rather that she may have been victimized to the point of doubting herself.

Edited March 9, 2018 by Corraleno

[Guest]

Correlano,

 

First, let me just say how sorry I am you endured that abuse.

 

Second, I do think the dad in the memoir, for certain had NPD and almost certainly had Bipolar disorder as well. And the mom is buried in denial a mile deep. I definitely agree that she lived with a lot of crazy and it made it hard for her to see that those things were abnormal. In the memoir, one of her sisters first confides that she was abused by the brother as well, but then after they confront the parents, the sister backs off of her testimony and Tara gets rejected by the sister and others in and near the family.

 

I do not think Tara Westover is twisting the truth. From a writing stylistic standpoint, I wish, rather, that she had just written the book as HER recollections and, if she was going to disclaim, it would have been better to disclaim it at the front of the book and then never again in the interior of the story. IMO, it would be better to have one disclaimer like, “This story is related according to my recollections and journal entries and oral recollections from friends. Memory being imperfect, my recollection of events may be imprecise. I have related events as accurately as possible. This is my story.†This is not how she handled it; she put astrisks and dislcaimers when specific events were related differently by different people. Strictly from a story standpoint, it loses it’s flow and some degree of patience from the reader. It seems to me that she tried to please family members in the telling and that made for a weaker story.

 

As a comparison, in The Glass Castle, Jeanette Wells wrote that story so confidently that as the reader, I did not question her story. She did not dither on the points. It read more confidently, whereas Westover’s book reads more like she is still trying to dance to the tune of others. Even putting in her disclaimers did not ultimately help because her brother is disputing her story somewhat on Amazon. It’s like he thinks he still needs to put in his two cents.

[Guest]

One of the things that I struggled with in her story was that their schooling was so lax, yet how many of them went off and got graduate degrees-straight away. Not, oh I came back at 40 after working for decades. Nope. They went straight through like most of us probably dream out kids would, and somehow it got paid for whether through work, loan, or scholarship. I mean, I know it's all possible with horrifying parents, but we have threads about kids not getting Algebra II as being undereducated and here they worked in a scrap yard with what she made sound as zip in the way of education. I'm not buying it. Somewhere in there, somebody did something that set those kids up to be able to make it. Their batting average exceeds the national average by far. The parents definitely had their issues, but I think the whole "Educated" deal was a gimmick. And it worked. That's why I bought the book. I know parents making 6 figures who do all the "right" things and can't get 50% of their kids through college and launched without a drug problem. There's just a lot of questions she introduced for me by her multiple versions and I have many questions about the actual educational standard or lack thereof she experienced.

You make a good point. I did wonder numerous times how the few kids went to college/paid for college. I had not thought much about the fact that they went through at a normal time of life. I grew up in a family that subtly, but surely, did not support girls attending college. Between that constant undermining and my parent’s endless refrain of having no money, I did not set foot in a college until I was 38. One of my sisters attending too, but later than usual. Neither of us have gotten as far as we would like as far as degrees.

 

I *could* relate to Tara Westover’s accounts of getting to college and having no knowledge of major events in world history. This was very similar for me when I went to public school for the first time. I had attended a tiny, Christian, Gotthard-based school and there were large bodies of knowledge that were never mentioned. My knowledge of many branches of science (geology, biology, astronomy) was severely limited because we were meant to believe Genesis explains all one needs to know about those subjects. I even remember going to the Museum of Natural History in D.C., yet being herded quickly past exhibits about Early Man and other subjects.

 

I know what you mean about putting up a critical review. I put one on GRs, but I am bothered by the book and also think I would now give it three stars, not four. But I am also reluctant to say exactly what I think because it would sound like I was saying this story is not as good as Jeannette Wells’ because the later has more facets of dysfunctional life. I cannot say, “This book wasn’t as good as The Glass Castle because Westover’s life was not that terrible.†And yes, it feels so crass to criticize her story in the era of #metoo.

 

Honestly, I think she could have written a much better book, say, ten years in the future. To me it seems like she hasn’t healed enough from the abuse and dysfunction and there appears to still be a lot of turmoil regarding estrangement from some of the family. I know I would be better able to write a memoir about my kooky upbringing now, at 46, then when I was in my twenties or even my thirties. In my twenties, I was still much too enmeshed in gaining approval from my parents and siblings and I would have done just what she seems to have done - try to please everyone by mentioning their version of events, which clearly backfired anyway.

[poppy]

I haven't read this but I did see an interview with her on TV and it perked up my ears because it was about homeschooling.  But it became clear even in a short interview that it's not really about homeschooling at all -- maybe it got published because it of that (and she was obviously intelligent / articulate / etc), but it's a personal abuse story, not about homeschooling at all.  It's about NPD.  Would maybe be a good recommendation for people dealing wtih that.  The review from Tyler, man, that is a  piece of work..... made me get a slight sense of the gaslighting involved in that kind of household.

[maize]

I haven't read the book. I went and read the brother's review--it sounded to me like he was primarily trying to clarify his own experience not discount hers? In the book does she make it sound like their parents or at least dad discouraged his higher education in some way? The main point he seemed to be trying to make was that he actually had encouragement to go to college and graduate school.

[maize]

I'll have to see if my library has the book.

[Guest]

I haven't read the book. I went and read the brother's review--it sounded to me like he was primarily trying to clarify his own experience not discount hers? In the book does she make it sound like their parents or at least dad discouraged his higher education in some way? The main point he seemed to be trying to make was that he actually had encouragement to go to college and graduate school.

In the book, she portrays her dad as viewing girls as having no place in college. (It is not hard for me to believe this because I was raised the same way. I also think Tyler’s perceptions of that can simply be wrong because he was a boy and did not face the same obstacles of approved roles for girls.) Additionally, the father, who is paranoid about government interference in their lives, does not want them to go to any school or college because they will be “on the radar†of the govt. It seems to me that he came more fully into this view as time passed, so it makes sense that the oldest kids would have had some regular schooling, but the younger kids (including Tara) had none. Also, Tara relates that dad’s primary goal was bodies working in the scrap yard - the more workers and the more quickly they work, the greater the profit margin. So, I also do find it very believable that dad would “order†the kids to stop trying to learn Algebra and go out there and work. Also, the brother Tyler has a speech impediment - he stutters. When Tara relates the story of him telling their father he plans to go to college, she describes him as stuttering. If this is true, then it makes sense that he found it stressful to tell dad he intends to go to college. People with stutters often stutter most under stress.

 

I feel the brother’s review on Amazon is exceedingly immature and makes him look bitter that she wrote the story. If he is happy with his life at this point, there is no benefit in sniping at the book she wrote. The memoir represents HER memories. If my sister wrote a memoir, I am sure she would tell certain stories one way which I would say were different, but if she did actually publish a book, I would feel that it’s not my place to try to “correct†her account, least of all in an Amazon review. Tyler could start a blog if it were so important to put his version of events in the public eye. Or write his own memoir.

[maize]

It is certainly common for children in a family to have different experiences, even close in age same sex children--much more so with opposite sex and large age gaps.

[poppy]

On the Tyler thing, maybe I missed something but the feel I got was that Tyler and Richard were on her “side†and she wrote her account with their blessing as to it’s accuracy with a few discrepancies- like the fires. His review on Amazon made me question that about her book as well. I didn’t take it as him trying to bash her, but rather trying to not let her put words in his mouth maybe. I don’t know. I wasn’t bothered by his post at all. I can’t imagine having a sibling who decided to air my family’s issues to the world in the first place.....albeit her right.....It’s just got to be a lot to cope with.

 

I agree she should’ve waited longer to write. I think it would’ve made it a different book without all of the other accounts. She undermined herself by including them, but I guess that’s just further evidence of how much she actually hadn’t been able to disconnect from Idaho, which is a recurring theme. I hope she finds whatever she was looking to find through her writing. She should be proud of what she’s accomplished and overcome.

 

The review would have been a decent article on Buzzfeed or Medium about how two different people have such different experiences, or maybe just memories. Putting it as an amazon review, disputing her story at a pretty fundamental level --- no really my dad was supportive! --- is more insidious, clever undermining.

[Guest]

The review would have been a decent article on Buzzfeed or Medium about how two different people have such different experiences, or maybe just memories. Putting it as an amazon review, disputing her story at a pretty fundamental level --- no really my dad was supportive! --- is more insidious, clever undermining.

Yeah, that was my feeling about the review.

[Jenny in Florida]

I couldn't make it through the book.

 

I really wanted to like it, but I found it too unpleasant to make my way through. (I'm not in the head space for anything depressing these days.) I got as far as the incidents in which she is injured working in the scrap yard, her brother's leg is badly burned and then they have the second car accident before deciding I really need to focus on more cheerful, less emotionally challenging things for a while.

 

I will say, though, that I read an interview with the author in which she makes it clear that she really didn't have any idea how to write a book and that she is aware of this one's somewhat odd structure. 

 

Also, on the subject of "education" and how the kids were prepared to go on, academically, I think this quote from the author's interview in Vanity Fair is significant:

 

"I think it’s a belief that you can learn something. That’s something that I really value from the upbringing I got. My parents would say to me all the time: you can teach yourself anything better than someone else can teach it to you. Which I really think is true. I hate the the word “disempower,†because it seems kind of cliché, but I do think that we take people’s ability to self-teach away by creating this idea that that someone else has to do this for you, that you have to take a course, you have to do it in some formal way. Any curriculum that you design for yourself is going to be better, even if it’s not the absolute perfect one. You will follow what you care about."

 

She does talk in the book about how a couple of her brothers -- and then she, following their example -- would isolate themselves in the evenings and whenever they could do so unnoticed and study on their own. These are clearly very intelligent, self-motivated people who made the best of an unconventional and difficult situation.

 

It also sounds as though her mother was willing to help them jump through bureaucratic hoops when necessary, helping them get official paperwork and IDs, so I assume that she may have provided assistance with things like financial aid. The family likely had an income low enough to qualify the kids for a fair amount of help. (And it sounds like each of the kids started earning money from pretty early on.)

 

Edited to add: Here's a link to that VF interview, by the way -- https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2018/02/tara-westover-memoir-educated-interview

Edited March 10, 2018 by Jenny in Florida

[Guest]

It also sounds as though her mother was willing to help them jump through bureaucratic hoops when necessary, helping them get official paperwork and IDs, so I assume that she may have provided assistance with things like financial aid. The family likely had an income low enough to qualify the kids for a fair amount of help. (And it sounds like each of the kids started earning money from pretty early on.)

Yes, there is a part later in the book in which Tara means to sneak into the house to steal tax returns for financial aid. She is discovered and her mother then cooperates with getting the paperwork, keeping it from the father who would presumably not agree with allowing the kids to accept government assistence. Tara herself struggles with this aspect, against the advisors who assure her there is money available for people in her situation, but she is fearful of accepting govt. money. (I was actually thinking the parents may not be filing taxes and so there would be no such thing to steal, but I was wrong about that.)

 

In my own upbringing, I was so uninformed about college that I didn’t even have any idea what the “SAT†was and why other teens were always talking about taking and re-taking the SAT. I had no idea there were such things as Pell grants; I only had heard that college was very expensive and my parents were unwilling to pay for college for girls. So, I would be interested to know how Tyler, and later Tara, even really understood what was necessary to get admitted to college, or to know what was available. I assume Tara could have gotten that info from Tyler, but I wonder how Tyler got that information, for example, knowing he needed to take the ACT and that there were study guides and practice tests. Maybe some of that is just the difference that those kids grew up after the internet was a thing, while I did not.

[maize]

Yes, there is a part later in the book in which Tara means to sneak into the house to steal tax returns for financial aid. She is discovered and her mother then cooperates with getting the paperwork, keeping it from the father who would presumably not agree with allowing the kids to accept government assistence. Tara herself struggles with this aspect, against the advisors who assure her there is money available for people in her situation, but she is fearful of accepting govt. money. (I was actually thinking the parents may not be filing taxes and so there would be no such thing to steal, but I was wrong about that.)

 

In my own upbringing, I was so uninformed about college that I didn’t even have any idea what the “SAT†was and why other teens were always talking about taking and re-taking the SAT. I had no idea there were such things as Pell grants; I only had heard that college was very expensive and my parents were unwilling to pay for college for girls. So, I would be interested to know how Tyler, and later Tara, even really understood what was necessary to get admitted to college, or to know what was available. I assume Tara could have gotten that info from Tyler, but I wonder how Tyler got that information, for example, knowing he needed to take the ACT and that there were study guides and practice tests. Maybe some of that is just the difference that those kids grew up after the internet was a thing, while I did not.

Did the family attend church?

 

If they were involved with a mainstream LDS church (and it sounds like Tyler at least was since he went to BYU?) they could have been getting encouragement and counseling on higher education there. The LDS church is very pro education, the usual counsel to youth (male and female both) is "get as much education as you can" and there are several church run programs in place to help make that possible.

[Guest]

Did the family attend church?

 

If they were involved with a mainstream LDS church (and it sounds like Tyler at least was since he went to BYU?) they could have been getting encouragement and counseling on higher education there. The LDS church is very pro education, the usual counsel to youth (male and female both) is "get as much education as you can" and there are several church run programs in place to help make that possible.

Yes, they did, though the parents held much stricter beliefs than others at the church. I hope that is the case - that people at the church (or somewhere) were part of how Tyler, and by extension Tara, gained encouragement on going to college. I just know from my own experience that there can still be a belief of, “well, that’s not what we do,†even if others in the faith gave them the needed inforamtion.

 

She talks about how, when she first attended BYU, she was shocked to discover that other LDS girls were perfectly comfortable wearing a tank top or sweatpants with “Juicy†on the butt. She was trying to reconcile that these girls were certain of their faith, yet could dress so immodestly and see no conflict in that. I thought that part of the book was so telling.

[luuknam]

In my own upbringing, I was so uninformed about college that I didn’t even have any idea what the “SAT†was and why other teens were always talking about taking and re-taking the SAT. I had no idea there were such things as Pell grants; I only had heard that college was very expensive and my parents were unwilling to pay for college for girls. So, I would be interested to know how Tyler, and later Tara, even really understood what was necessary to get admitted to college, or to know what was available. I assume Tara could have gotten that info from Tyler, but I wonder how Tyler got that information, for example, knowing he needed to take the ACT and that there were study guides and practice tests. 

 

 

Didn't Tyler in his review say that his father for a little while wanted him to get an engineering degree so he could sign off on permits? So, he might have gotten that info from his parents.

[Mothersweets]

You make a good point. I did wonder numerous times how the few kids went to college/paid for college. I had not thought much about the fact that they went through at a normal time of life. I grew up in a family that subtly, but surely, did not support girls attending college. Between that constant undermining and my parent’s endless refrain of having no money, I did not set foot in a college until I was 38. One of my sisters attending too, but later than usual. Neither of us have gotten as far as we would like as far as degrees.

 

I *could* relate to Tara Westover’s accounts of getting to college and having no knowledge of major events in world history. This was very similar for me when I went to public school for the first time. I had attended a tiny, Christian, Gotthard-based school and there were large bodies of knowledge that were never mentioned. My knowledge of many branches of science (geology, biology, astronomy) was severely limited because we were meant to believe Genesis explains all one needs to know about those subjects. I even remember going to the Museum of Natural History in D.C., yet being herded quickly past exhibits about Early Man and other subjects.

 

I know what you mean about putting up a critical review. I put one on GRs, but I am bothered by the book and also think I would now give it three stars, not four. But I am also reluctant to say exactly what I think because it would sound like I was saying this story is not as good as Jeannette Wells’ because the later has more facets of dysfunctional life. I cannot say, “This book wasn’t as good as The Glass Castle because Westover’s life was not that terrible.†And yes, it feels so crass to criticize her story in the era of #metoo.

 

Honestly, I think she could have written a much better book, say, ten years in the future. To me it seems like she hasn’t healed enough from the abuse and dysfunction and there appears to still be a lot of turmoil regarding estrangement from some of the family. I know I would be better able to write a memoir about my kooky upbringing now, at 46, then when I was in my twenties or even my thirties. In my twenties, I was still much too enmeshed in gaining approval from my parents and siblings and I would have done just what she seems to have done - try to please everyone by mentioning their version of events, which clearly backfired anyway.

 

I read this a few weeks ago! I, too, wondered about tuition and also how in the world was college even a possibility for her if her folks weren't keen on education at all? I understand what you mean about the undermining and no support for higher ed for girls and know that just those two seemingly little things can stop someone from ever going any further. The author must have left some bits out that explain more fully how it all came about. I liked the book a lot but think if it were written when she was a little older it might have been better. 

[MaeFlowers]

I began reading the book today. I've only made it about half way through and I think I am done.

 

When I first started reading, I didn't understand the questions about it. Her story seemed belivable. I could relate her family to other families I have known that were extreme or where addiction and mental health issues were an issue.

Her brothers review also seemed reasonable given that children often have different memories of the same family. I didn't see it as an attack on her, just another view point.

 

 

Suddenly, in the past few chapters, I came to the realization that I think she is lying. That's why I can't read any more. I don't know what specifically triggered my sense that this is more fiction than fact. I feel bad saying that. I am not trying to deny the abuse, extremism, etc. I think we are getting the story from someone who might be suffering from mental illness in a way that distorts reality. In that context, her brothers review makes more sense.

[Guest]

I began reading the book today. I've only made it about half way through and I think I am done.

 

When I first started reading, I didn't understand the questions about it. Her story seemed belivable. I could relate her family to other families I have known that were extreme or where addiction and mental health issues were an issue.

Her brothers review also seemed reasonable given that children often have different memories of the same family. I didn't see it as an attack on her, just another view point.

 

 

Suddenly, in the past few chapters, I came to the realization that I think she is lying. That's why I can't read any more. I don't know what specifically triggered my sense that this is more fiction than fact. I feel bad saying that. I am not trying to deny the abuse, extremism, etc. I think we are getting the story from someone who might be suffering from mental illness in a way that distorts reality. In that context, her brothers review makes more sense.

Interesting. I did not feel she was lying, although I think she has her own demons to fight - that’s what I mean by saying I do not think she was emotionally ready to publish this book.

 

I did very much get the feeling, though, that there was more to the abuse than what she reported.

[katilac]

I have not read the entire book yet, just a bit of it. I did read a few interviews with her that make me think she does have a tendency to exaggeration for the sake of a good story. 

 

For example, she states that she knew nothing about writing a narrative when she started to write the book, which is believable enough. But she had earned her PhD and didn't know what a tense shift was? She didn't know what point of view was? That's just not believable to me, I think she exaggerated in the interest of making the accomplishment more impressive. Which isn't needed: if it's a good book, it's a good book. It's not better because you had to struggle extra hard to write it. 

 

The interviews almost always mention that she didn't have a birth certificate, as though that were a stumbling block to leaving home, getting a job, or going to college (she didn't own a birth certificate, but she got a PhD!).  This is a problem for many off-the-grid kids. But, in this case, her delayed birth certificate was issued when she was 9, long before it would have been an issue. Again, it's an exaggeration to heighten her struggle, one that seems to intentionally play off of the story of Alecia Pennington, who actually did have a long struggle to prove her existence and citizenship after leaving home at 18. The Pennington story gained a lot of attention in 2015. 

 

Eh, she kind of annoys me, lol. I haven't decided whether to keep reading yet. 

[maize]

If she is coming from a background of mental illness, personality disorders, and manipulation it is certainly possible that she has some of those tendencies herself. Families pass on good and bad both culturally and genetically.

 

Probably impossible to untangle what is what based on a book though.

 

It sounds like she has done quite well in life coming from a challenging background, that is commendable regardless of what else is going on.

Edited March 11, 2018 by maize

[maize]

Memoirs are in fact faulty be definition--our memories are constantly being re-written. I have seen people dealing with mental illness embrace a view of their past or even current circumstances that has no basis at all in fact; it is rather scary to me because it suggests that none of us can really be certain of fact.

 

While it may interfere with the story the uncertainty in her account that people have mentioned may in fact make it a more honest story than any told with confidence.

 

Wish I had book money in the budget right now, I'm intrigued enough by the discussion to want to take a peek.

[eternalsummer]

I found the moral certainty of the author of The Glass Castle off-putting.

[MaeFlowers]

Interesting. I did not feel she was lying, although I think she has her own demons to fight - that’s what I mean by saying I do not think she was emotionally ready to publish this book.

 

I did very much get the feeling, though, that there was more to the abuse than what she reported.

Lying probably isn't the right word. I am having a really hard time describing what my reponse is. It is more of a sense of being scammed. I don't feel I'm getting the truth. I feel like Im getting a created narrative.

 

The asterisk at the end of the motorcycle accident chapter seems very telling. She remembers a person being there who says they were not. While some of the discrepancies make sense (I can understand different memories of the fire, for ex), I struggle with the idea that the family friend would forget being there. That doesn't seem like something you could forget. Her brother's review puts her at odds with the rest of the family. Her recollection seems to diverge from everyone else in a way that says she might be the least reliable.

Edited March 11, 2018 by MaeFlowers

[MaeFlowers]

Memoirs are in fact faulty be definition--our memories are constantly being re-written. I have seen people dealing with mental illness embrace a view of their past or even current circumstances that has no basis at all in fact; it is rather scary to me because it suggests that none of us can really be certain of fact.

 

While it may interfere with the story the uncertainty in her account that people have mentioned may in fact make it a more honest story than any told with confidence.

 

Wish I had book money in the budget right now, I'm intrigued enough by the discussion to want to take a peek.

This is what I was thinking. That her reality may be skewed by mental illness. She may be bipolar like her father.

 

I don't think she is a socipath who is completely fabricating the story.

[LucyStoner]

Did the family attend church?

 

If they were involved with a mainstream LDS church (and it sounds like Tyler at least was since he went to BYU?) they could have been getting encouragement and counseling on higher education there. The LDS church is very pro education, the usual counsel to youth (male and female both) is "get as much education as you can" and there are several church run programs in place to help make that possible.

 

I thought Tara also went to BYU?  

[Guest]

I thought Tara also went to BYU?

She did, yes.

[maize]

I actually had the rather odd experience recently of determining that something I thought I remembered happening to me had in fact happened to a different family member. I had the story in my head and at some point mistook it for my own memory.

 

Memory is strange.

Edited March 11, 2018 by maize

[katilac]

  I feel like Im getting a created narrative.

 

 

 

Yes. 

 

I think she should have written it as a novel. 

[EKS]

Coming in late here because I wanted to finish the book before reading this thread.

I have to say that I had to force myself to finish.  I read the book because I thought it would be about *how* a kid with essentially no formal education could go on to be successful in college and graduate school.  I was disappointed that this wasn't what the book was about.  Instead, it seemed to be about abuse and the nasty combination of mental illness and fundamentalist religious beliefs. 

I agree with everyone who says that something about the depiction of the abuse by the brother just didn't ring true in that it seemed like she was leaving something out.

I do wonder though, if she really went from no academic input to BYU to Harvard/Cambridge, what the heck I've been doing with this homeschooling thing these last 15 years?  Is she really that brilliant?  Frankly, other than her telling us that she is that brilliant, the book itself doesn't give any sign of it.  

Edited September 18, 2019 by EKS

[Bluegoat]

I actually had the rather odd experience recently of determining that something I thought I remembered happening to me had in fact happened to a different family member. I had the story in my head and at some point mistook it for my own memory.

 

Memory is strange.

 

Oh, I've had that.

 

I remembered attending a talk by a somewhat famous person in university.  For some reason though I started to wonder if it was true.  It occurred to me that it might actually have bene a dream.

 

I did a bit of research and couldn't find anything about this person visiting.  Eventually I asked a friend I was at school with at the same time if he remembered it, as he would certainly have gone or wanted to go.  He didn't remember it either.

 

S now I have no idea if it was a ream, or maybe I heard a different speaker and somehow remembered him as a completely different person?  I can remember listening to him, and while a few things seem not quite right, it has the quality of a memory of something that actually happened rather than of a dream.

[Jenny in Florida]

I have to say that I had to force myself to finish.  I read the book because I thought it would be about *how* a kid with essentially no formal education could go on to be successful in college and graduate school.  I was disappointed that this wasn't what the book was about.  Instead, it seemed to be about abuse and the nasty combination of mental illness and fundamentalist religious beliefs.   

 

That was the source of my disappointment, too. And I couldn't force myself through.

[Ausmumof3]

http://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/conversations/tara-westover/9697204

this interview with the author is interesting.

[Tsuga]

I haven't read the book but I heard an interview on NPR. She has a huge case of impostor syndrome. The abuse was sad, but what struck me was she felt she was poorly educated, they didn't know anything, etc. I feel like she has no idea what poorly educated actually is. That there are gaps in knowledge even among the most well-educated people. She did not sound poorly educated at all.

Like others, I struggle to believe she was totally an auto-didact and therefore accepted to the Ivy League (didn't she go on to grad school there?) unless there is a huge heretofore unknown bias towards homeschoolers.

Quote

I mean, I know it's all possible with horrifying parents, but we have threads about kids not getting Algebra II as being undereducated and here they worked in a scrap yard with what she made sound as zip in the way of education. I'm not buying it. Somewhere in there, somebody did something that set those kids up to be able to make it. Their batting average exceeds the national average by far. The parents definitely had their issues, but I think the whole "Educated" deal was a gimmick.  And it worked. That's why I bought the book. I know parents making 6 figures who do all the "right" things and can't get 50% of their kids through college and launched without a drug problem. There's just a lot of questions she introduced for me by her multiple versions and I have many questions about the actual educational standard or lack thereof she experienced. 

 

They brought this up in the interview, and I forget how they addressed it. Like... "but, you did go to college..." You can get a ton of grants, but still, how do you pay for housing? And then of course, if you truly are not educated, you won't understand the questions they're asking even if you do understand the texts.

[Mothersweets]

8 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

http://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/conversations/tara-westover/9697204

this interview with the author is interesting.

This is a great interview! Thanks for posting it!

[Pawz4me]

I'm about three fourths of the way through, and some things definitely don't seem plausible to me. Although in many cases I can't put my finger on exactly why they don't seem plausible, and I've wondered if my opinion is colored by my lack of experience with serious mental illness. I've absolutely been wondering if she was sexually abused by Shawn.

As far as messed up memories--Umm, yeah. And apparently they don't even have to be distant memories. I was searching for one of our coolers yesterday and couldn't find it. And then I remembered! DS22 had taken it on his spring break trip. I absolutely remembered him asking to borrow it, and me asking if he was sure they'd have enough room in the car for it (several kids traveling together). And I remembered him saying they'd make room for it because it would save them a lot of time not having to stop so often for snacks. And so I texted him to ask about it. He replied with "No? I don't think so." And then later he confirmed that one of the boys who went with him said they didn't have a cooler along. And after poking around some more I found it on a shelf in the attic. So where did those memories come from??? And that was just a couple of months ago. There's no telling how our memories get messed up over many years.