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StellaM

Single sex spaces and segregation - what do you think ? Needed or not ?

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Ok, but if women have been in the past (and now), in need of safe spaces for only themselves because of potential danger from men.... and if transwomen retain male patterns of criminality and violence... then yeah, maybe women DO need to be protected from transwomen, in any situation where they need to be protected from men.

 

And yes, I'm conscious that transwomen ALSO need protection from men and that's also important. But does it need to be at the expense of women?

 

If trans women are women, then there can be no third way. There can be no excluding them from "women only" spaces.

Edited by EmseB
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Hi there.  My name is Poppy. I too have attempted to talk to several of these posters about not treating trans people as mental ill, dangerous invaders of women's space and the enemy of womenkind.  It didn't get anywhere, for me at least.   I witness you. and wish you luck.

 

thanks; I'm seeing that it is a topic/conversation more complex than I meant to wade into. Thank you for the kind words. 

 

I agree with you.

I'm just saying that women who try to have these conversations elsewhere are attacked. So while I appreciate the sentiment, I question how much trans activism you've seen - because your posts here would have you labelled and grouped with the mean women whether you like it or not.

 

Correct; I've not seen a lot of trans activism. I admit, readily, that my ideas might (probably) be very naive. I'm not trying to be mean, and in fact am clumsily attempting the opposite. 

 

I'm not cisgender. Obviously, other women can refer to themselves how they wish; it's not my modifier. Ta.

 

I think it's totally possible to have a reasonable conversation here. Have more options. Give people the choice between mixed sex or single sex provisions. Have gender neutral spaces availabe also, especially for pre-op transwomen who feel unsafe in men's single sex spaces, or for transmen who don't feel comfortable yet in men's spaces but are also not wanting to use women's spaces. (it's almost like there's a common problem here, hmm, what could it be?)

 

That's not unreasonable. Not here.

 

It's called 'literal violence' in the outside world though. Women can and have been suspended from major political parties for suggesting third spaces, because women and transpeople have different needs.

 

It's ceetainly complicated out there, in a way it isn't here.

 

I appreciated your clarification, btw.

 

Thank you; I appreciate that. I'm not trying to be mean, in the least. This is not a topic I discuss in real life, because in my neck of the woods I'm very much on the flip side of the prevailing thoughts/attitudes, and I dislike confrontation. I appreciate you listening to my words and the intent behind them, very much, however clumsily I phrased things. 

 

I don't think the problems are due to discussing having a third space. The problems arise when some say those who are transgender must choose that third space. That's not something I agree with. 

 

I agree with you on that. 

 

------------------------

 

 

On that note, guys, I'm bowing out. I don't really have anything else to add, and we're heading out for Spring Break in the morning, and I won't be back to check in anyway. Just wanted to mention it, so no one thinks I'm just cutting and running. If this thread survives until I return, I will read the follow-ups, as it IS a topic I would like to understand better & educate myself on, but I'm pretty sure I'm done replying, I just don't have the mental energy, knowledge, or time to continue with this right now. 

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Yeah, no drama.

 

I did get an idea that most people see a need for some same sex provision, even if very limited, along with unisex provision, so that in itself was interesting.

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The psych ward that I know anything about in my town is for ages 5-18. The adult psych ward is in the same hospital. They are mixed BUT they have separate rooms. They aren't allowed to go into each other's rooms and they sleep with the doors open and with someone patrolling the halls. I assume the adult ward has similar rules, but am not sure. Showers were in each room. There was a strict no touching rule. Not even fist bumps or high fives.

 

 

I find this unacceptable. Do they have people stationed in the room at all times watching? At all times?

I imagine if the sleeping wards were no longer same sex, this would be required, but staffing numbers wouldn't allow it, most likely.

 

I'm glad a few other moms see the unacceptability! It's just plain old risk mitigation, really.

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Just like with other religious groups, i think some Muslims would be happy with something more integrated and some with less.  I haven't lived in the US in a while, but when I was in grad school the community there (even waaaay back then ;) ) had a pretty serious split in the women's side between those who valued having a separate space and those who preferred to have one communal space for all.  What I really could see happening, if it hasn't already to an extent, is that there will be many mosques in a given city and they each have their own ways of dealing with this issue, so people will go to whichever suits them.  This is already the case for cultural preferences/backgrounds.

 

I am jaded enough myself after all these years to actually like the idea of a completely women-only mosque.. not just a women's area in a mosque, the whole thing.  But there will be a lot of difference of opinion and preference, and as the community grows the possibility of having a range of choices will likely also increase.

Thanks Kate, that was interesting.

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Honestly, I have an issue with sleeping 8 to a room in a psych ward even if it is same sex. I think that's a horrible idea if there isn't round the clock supervision. I know I wouldn't feel safe even if it was all women.

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Honestly, I have an issue with sleeping 8 to a room in a psych ward even if it is same sex. I think that's a horrible idea if there isn't round the clock supervision. I know I wouldn't feel safe even if it was all women.

It isn't safe, but it's what some people have to deal with.

 

At least keeping such wards single sex makes it somewhat safer, statistically speaking. It doesn't remove the risk of sexual assault, but it reduces it.

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Ok, but if women have been in the past (and now), in need of safe spaces for only themselves because of potential danger from men.... and if transwomen retain male patterns of criminality and violence... then yeah, maybe women DO need to be protected from transwomen, in any situation where they need to be protected from men.

 

And yes, I'm conscious that transwomen ALSO need protection from men and that's also important. But does it need to be at the expense of women?

 

For those of us who acknowledge that transwomen are women, saying they act "at the expense of women" doesn't make sense. 

It's only if you put trans people into some kind of brand new, non-female / non-male category that you run into this "they" are against "us".

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Poppy, if you don't have anything to add re same sex spaces, would you mind awfully hopping off my thread?

 

Of course, if you do have something to add on same sex provisions, and whether you think there is any need, you are very welcome to contribute.

 

Thanks.

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Do you think my dd should have be on a mixed sex ward - open, 8 beds to the room - when she was in a psych ward ? Is that something you think, in your heart of hearts, is perfectly fine? You really believe there is no issue putting vulnerable girls in a mixed sex ward for sleeping and showering ?

I actually think you are using different definitions of wards. You are using multi bed open wards whereas as they are thinking a ward of smaller rooms off a hallway and in a couple of cases separate bathrooms for rooms were mentioned. I know when I was four I was in the former kind once I was past the first few weeks and it was multi sex but I think even the four bed recovery unit I was in a few years ago was single sex though maybe that was because it was a gyno operating that day.

 

No way should your daughter be in an 8 bed mixed sex ward. That just adds more fuel to an already stressful situation. Unless a hospital is so small it is not practical I think single sex is best - a lot of women can't relax enough round men and vice versa.

 

When I had my kids the partners had to leave at 11 but last year they started allowing them to sleep over. I find it a bit pathetic really. Women are in hospital for a very short time after giving birth here (often less than 24 hours). Surely they could just spend it sorting out feeding and resting without their husband in tow? I think maybe it is cheaper to house men than employ enough staff though.

Edited by kiwik
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For those of us who acknowledge that transwomen are women, saying they act "at the expense of women" doesn't make sense. 

It's only if you put trans people into some kind of brand new, non-female / non-male category that you run into this "they" are against "us"

 

Does it need to be at the expense of women who were born women and who have female dna and vaginas and who have historically been the oppressed group of people at a higher risk of violence from people who are born with male dna and who were raised and socialized as men and whose bodies generally produce more testosterone and who generally have penises. Is that enough clarification that it "makes sense" for you now?

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I suspect the reason there is a new push to let husbands stay the night is to encourage bonding with the new baby.

 

Mine couldn't after our first because he was needed to stay home with the other kids, but it was nice for the three of us to be together for the first few days in the hospital.  I don't know why fathers should be excluded from that experience when possible - in every hospital I've been in the US all maternity rooms are private, though.

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Does it need to be at the expense of women who were born women and who have female dna and vaginas and who have historically been the oppressed group of people at a higher risk of violence from people who are born with male dna and who were raised and socialized as men and whose bodies generally produce more testosterone and who generally have penises. Is that enough clarification that it "makes sense" for you now?

If trans women aren't really women so not allowed in women only spaces, are trans men? Or is it no transgender people allowed at all?

 

FTR, I think of those who are transgender as just men and women but would like clarification from those posting here.

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Does it need to be at the expense of women who were born women and who have female dna and vaginas and who have historically been the oppressed group of people at a higher risk of violence from people who are born with male dna and who were raised and socialized as men and whose bodies generally produce more testosterone and who generally have penises. Is that enough clarification that it "makes sense" for you now?

I think your views are too far apart for agreement. I feel you can never truly become another thing entirely. If you are raised to be one thing you will always be affected by raising. A person raised to be a lord will probably never be a convincing peasant an vv.

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Does it need to be at the expense of women who were born women and who have female dna and vaginas and who have historically been the oppressed group of people at a higher risk of violence from people who are born with male dna and who were raised and socialized as men and whose bodies generally produce more testosterone and who generally have penises. Is that enough clarification that it "makes sense" for you now?

It's annoying when people want to talk single gender when the thread is about single sex.

 

I understand some people believe transwomen and women are in the same social category. That's a position I disagree with and find illogical, but really, it has almost nothing to do with single sex spaces and provisions.

 

Single sex has nothing to do with gender. It literally has to do with sex, which, for 99.9% of us, is a simple binary.

 

(Yes, intersex, but intersex people really dislike being co-opted into gender convos, so I try not to do it, and hope no-one else does either).

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If trans women aren't really women so not allowed in women only spaces, are trans men? Or is it no transgender people allowed at all?

 

FTR, I think of those who are transgender as just men and women but would like clarification from those posting here.

 

The issues for transmen are really different to the issues for transwomen, just as men's and women's issues are different.

 

You'd have to talk to men about how they feel having transmen in their single sex spaces. For men to make space for a female-bodied person presenting as male is pretty different to women making spaces for pre op males. Still, some men might be fine with it when others are not. Idk. I haven't asked them, because men aren't really my concern.

 

Theoretically, I am fine with transmen being in same sex spaces with women, because they are female, but I am pretty sure there would be all kinds of practical problems arising from that.

And I assume that transmen would not want to be in women's spaces.

 

My personal concern with transmen, especially pre-op or early in transition, is that they are safe in the male spaces they choose to enter.

Edited by StellaM
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I suspect the reason there is a new push to let husbands stay the night is to encourage bonding with the new baby.

 

Mine couldn't after our first because he was needed to stay home with the other kids, but it was nice for the three of us to be together for the first few days in the hospital.  I don't know why fathers should be excluded from that experience when possible - in every hospital I've been in the US all maternity rooms are private, though.

I think it's fine if you have a private room. But if you have a shared ward - idk - it's not nice having strange blokes around 24/7 while you're trying to breastfeed etc. I've only been in a room like that once, and I hated it. It was complete with 'Oh sorry, wrong curtain' when I was trying to latch on a baby with tongue tie - hard work and boobs are exposed for quite some time - it's one thing if it's a nurse opening your curtain, it's another thing if it's Joe Bloggs! At least if people have to go home at 8, there's some quiet, private time from then until 2 the next day.

 

Private rooms for all sounds like the best choice.

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It sounds like his only categories to test were "man" and "woman." I don't see anything that proves an artistic man is worse at distinguishing shades and tones than a non-artistic woman.

 

Some people play license plate bingo on car trips. My son and I like to play "what colors do you see." I will see three shades of green and brown in a lawn. He will see blues, purples, and more. Or I will see a blue and gray piece of sky, but he will name all the colors he would need to paint it, and it would be a lot more than just blue and gray! When he points it out, I can usually see it, but not always.

 

My husband is also an artist who will meticulously mix shades of paint to get the right ash or bone or cream.

Maybe they're tetrochromats!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrachromacy

 

----

 

+1 for female-sex only spaces. Not even just for bodily harm type concerns. But also just because. As an example, I was just reading about a retreat that is just for African American women. No white ladies allowed. That's great imo. The public world should be accessible to everyone. But anyone should be able to have spaces in their lives where voluntary exclusivity is nurtured. And, again, that's quite aside from locker rooms et al.

 

But I also think that lots of women really reallllllly really want to feel like they are completely equal to men and safe from male violence. And you know what they say! Dress for the position you want, not the one you have.

 

It's interesting that several posters have commented that they'd be more worried about ftm people entering male spaces. The tacit understanding there is that people with penises and above-average-female-strength, who are the benefactors of male conditioning under Patriarchy can be dangerous to smaller and/or female people. ... And yet, out in the world, maybe not necessarily here, women who don't want males in certain spaces are decried as being bigots, alarmist, or both.

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The big state school that's her second choice has both segregated and mixed dorm options, and that would seem ideal to me. But perhaps not all schools are big enough to offer all three options.

The big public university (not US) that I went to segregate gender by floors with guys on the lowest two floors because drunks, instruders and cockcroaches as well as rats would “attack†the ground floor first. So it was a safety measure of sorts.

 

The dorms/hostels were not segregated by faculty so my hostel neighbors were from school of science, school of arts, law school, medicine school, dentistry school, school of business admin, school of architecture and my own school of engineering. There were two of us females from school of engineering and about 15 guys in my hostel of about 900 undergraduates. The rooms were single rooms or double rooms with shared bathrooms and kitchen at every floor. So the bathrooms are gender segregated.

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For those of us who acknowledge that transwomen are women, saying they act "at the expense of women" doesn't make sense.

It's only if you put trans people into some kind of brand new, non-female / non-male category that you run into this "they" are against "us".

I didn't put anyone in any category.

 

I'm not allowed in my own category anymore - my category is now 'cis' woman. Meaning my gender matches my sex - except what does that mean exactly? I don't feel like a woman, I feel like a person in a female-sexed body. And now woman means 'whatever a male born and socialised person says it feels like'

 

Add in self id and poof, 100 years of feminist work goes flying out the window. Women's sports? Women's shelters - that feminists built? One in Alaska is being sued right now. Naivety isn't helping anyone.

 

Can you just for a second pretend that we're not arguing because we're mean bigots, but because we are genuinely worried about the effects on women?

 

Anyway, you're right, we've done this dance before. I am not interested in transwomen are women chants. Trans activists have a hard road to travel, gaslighting everyone into ignoring basic biology.

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I think it's fine if you have a private room. But if you have a shared ward - idk - it's not nice having strange blokes around 24/7 while you're trying to breastfeed etc. I've only been in a room like that once, and I hated it. It was complete with 'Oh sorry, wrong curtain' when I was trying to latch on a baby with tongue tie - hard work and boobs are exposed for quite some time - it's one thing if it's a nurse opening your curtain, it's another thing if it's Joe Bloggs! At least if people have to go home at 8, there's some quiet, private time from then until 2 the next day.

 

Private rooms for all sounds like the best choice.

 

 

I totally would not want to have other people's husbands around in a room with multiple beds and etc. right after having a baby.  Nope, nope, nope.  I'd just check out AMA and go right on home (if at all possible, and I mean AT ALL possible).  

 

Honestly, I don't really want to be around other women and their babies at that time, because in my experience other people's babies cry more than mine.

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I didn't put anyone in any category.

 

I'm not allowed in my own category anymore - my category is now 'cis' woman. Meaning my gender matches my sex - except what does that mean exactly? I don't feel like a woman, I feel like a person in a female-sexed body. And now woman means 'whatever a male born and socialised person says it feels like'

 

Add in self id and poof, 100 years of feminist work goes flying out the window. Women's sports? Women's shelters - that feminists built? One in Alaska is being sued right now. Naivety isn't helping anyone.

 

Can you just for a second pretend that we're not arguing because we're mean bigots, but because we are genuinely worried about the effects on women?

 

Anyway, you're right, we've done this dance before. I am not interested in transwomen are women chants. Trans activists have a hard road to travel, gaslighting everyone into ignoring basic biology.

 

Do we really, though? Ds is only 18 and has had his birth certificate and state issued ID already changed. They both show him as male.  He did what was needed with his high school, the college board, social security, and his pediatrician's office so now all of his records list him as male. And all this has happened in a very conservative Midwestern state. 

 

He will have a male roommate at college and one that has no problem with it (we've spoken with several of these fine young men at several different colleges we've visited who are already rooming with transgender students). Again, in a very conservative state. 

 

I'm a woman who doesn't have the same fears that you and a few others do regarding transwomen. I know many women just like me but I get the feeling our opinions and feelings don't matter. 

 

I don't know why I let myself get involved in these discussions here. No good comes of it and I don't think any minds are changed. I just have to remind myself that no one I know IRL feels the way that some of you do here.  

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I totally would not want to have other people's husbands around in a room with multiple beds and etc. right after having a baby. Nope, nope, nope. I'd just check out AMA and go right on home (if at all possible, and I mean AT ALL possible).

 

Honestly, I don't really want to be around other women and their babies at that time, because in my experience other people's babies cry more than mine.

We had separate rooms and the visitors had to use the visitor toilets but I was still glad when the men went home and I could go and get a drink in my dressing gown without running in to them. Although i interacted more with the men as they would hang out in the common room with the babies while their wives slept. I actually thoight the women were more competant when their husbands weren't there. Edited by kiwik

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I suspect the reason there is a new push to let husbands stay the night is to encourage bonding with the new baby.

 

Mine couldn't after our first because he was needed to stay home with the other kids, but it was nice for the three of us to be together for the first few days in the hospital. I don't know why fathers should be excluded from that experience when possible - in every hospital I've been in the US all maternity rooms are private, though.

Yes but if you have the baby at 4 pm in NZ you will probably be discharged at 10 am the next day. How much bonding is going to be missed really. And the bond between newborn and its mother is far more important. Edited by kiwik
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Do we really, though? Ds is only 18 and has had his birth certificate and state issued ID already changed. They both show him as male.  He did what was needed with his high school, the college board, social security, and his pediatrician's office so now all of his records list him as male. And all this has happened in a very conservative Midwestern state. 

 

He will have a male roommate at college and one that has no problem with it (we've spoken with several of these fine young men at several different colleges we've visited who are already rooming with transgender students). Again, in a very conservative state. 

 

I'm a woman who doesn't have the same fears that you and a few others do regarding transwomen. I know many women just like me but I get the feeling our opinions and feelings don't matter. 

 

I don't know why I let myself get involved in these discussions here. No good comes of it and I don't think any minds are changed. I just have to remind myself that no one I know IRL feels the way that some of you do here.

The issues with transmen are different.

 

It's good your child has their housing sorted.

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It's not fear of trans women, it's that statistically men are overwhelmingly the ones doing the assaulting, raping, harrassing, leering and that doesn't change with their clothes. Or with their self identification say so.

 

It's not fear of trans women to say that someone who has gone through a male puberty and has male bone structure/upper body strength should not be included in professional women's sports - injuring and taking places from women.

 

It's not fear of trans women to say that words have meanings, that there are physical differences between the sexes that have different needs. Only one sex will ever menstruate, only one sex will ever need prostate exams.

 

I'm not talking about legally convincing people, I'm talking about the absurdity of getting regular blue collar workers to agree that a penis is female.

 

I support trans folk to live safely and thrive and present however they're most comfortable. I support finding solutions that respect women and trans women. I support keeping women's sex based protections.

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Yes, they’re still needed. I’m not sure what has changed that would make them not needed. I don’t want to see naked men, I do not want to be seen by men when I am changing (so that covers locker rooms and hospitals) I do not want to be alone in a room (often somewhat isolated) with a man I don’t know (bathrooms), I am going to assume mixed gender prisons will result in more penetrative rape for the women and also contraceptive issues for consensual sex.... what goes into the pro column?

This
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Make a small dorm ?

 

These are universities; figuring this stuff out isn't beyond them.

 

When you make everything mixed sex, you prevent some girls and women from accessing the university. That's not OK.

I went to an engineering school similar to what is being described. Two all male dorms two dorms with one floor each of women and 2 floors each of men. The rest upper class-men dorms with single sex wings of a floor. When you have 5 men to 1 woman on campus there is simply no way to have an all female dorm. No matter how small you couldn't fill it.  There was ample dorm space as it was with out building a new dorm there was no demand for.

 

Also as an aside going to an engineering school gave you a good experience of what working in a male dominated field was going to be like. When I got my first job at a major company I was already comfortable being the only woman in a meeting. Some of the women that when to state universities really struggled adjusting to a male dominated work place. They may have been one of only a few women in their engineering classes but there were lots of women on campus.  

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I think it's fine if you have a private room. But if you have a shared ward - idk - it's not nice having strange blokes around 24/7 while you're trying to breastfeed etc. I've only been in a room like that once, and I hated it. It was complete with 'Oh sorry, wrong curtain' when I was trying to latch on a baby with tongue tie - hard work and boobs are exposed for quite some time - it's one thing if it's a nurse opening your curtain, it's another thing if it's Joe Bloggs! At least if people have to go home at 8, there's some quiet, private time from then until 2 the next day.

 

Private rooms for all sounds like the best choice.

 

I agree with private rooms for all, if possible.  I had my youngest over here and had a shared room in the hospital, both before and after delivery (different rooms), it was... not a great experience. 

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I didn't put anyone in any category.

 

I'm not allowed in my own category anymore - my category is now 'cis' woman. Meaning my gender matches my sex - except what does that mean exactly? I don't feel like a woman, I feel like a person in a female-sexed body. And now woman means 'whatever a male born and socialised person says it feels like'

 

Add in self id and poof, 100 years of feminist work goes flying out the window. Women's sports? Women's shelters - that feminists built? One in Alaska is being sued right now. Naivety isn't helping anyone.

 

Can you just for a second pretend that we're not arguing because we're mean bigots, but because we are genuinely worried about the effects on women?

 

Anyway, you're right, we've done this dance before. I am not interested in transwomen are women chants. Trans activists have a hard road to travel, gaslighting everyone into ignoring basic biology.

 

I absolutely believe you are genuinely worried about the effects on (cis)women.  But I also think that you are a textbook bigot and I'm not going to sugarcoat that.   

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It's annoying when people want to talk single gender when the thread is about single sex.

 

I understand some people believe transwomen and women are in the same social category. That's a position I disagree with and find illogical, but really, it has almost nothing to do with single sex spaces and provisions.

 

Single sex has nothing to do with gender. It literally has to do with sex, which, for 99.9% of us, is a simple binary.

 

(Yes, intersex, but intersex people really dislike being co-opted into gender convos, so I try not to do it, and hope no-one else does either).

 

 I think it muddies the water more, not less, when you use the term "single sex" and have a subtext of "this is about excluding same gender, different sex" without ever using the term cis-gender. I know it's not a term you like.  I know it's not how you self-identify, and of course that is fine. But you would be less annoyed if more people understood what you are trying to get to.  And the term cis-gender has come to be a simple shorthand.

 

I personally despise the oxford comma, but, I  have come to use it due to its popularity.

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Does it need to be at the expense of women who were born women and who have female dna and vaginas and who have historically been the oppressed group of people at a higher risk of violence from people who are born with male dna and who were raised and socialized as men and whose bodies generally produce more testosterone and who generally have penises. Is that enough clarification that it "makes sense" for you now?

 

Oh, I completely understand your argument.   

 

Here is another way of looking at it. Most self-identified feminists (like myself) are relatively privileged in terms of class and race, and trans people are statistically much more likely to be young, minority and poor.  Now both groups do experience difficulties and oppression.  How can we help each other?  In particular, how can those of us who were born women and privileged  use our political capital to help these kids? Trans people are not trying to take away, remove , dismantle, destroy our hard-fought rights.  They just want to be let in because they feel like it's the place for them.  Of course there are some bumps to work out, and it's not simple.  But viewing trans folks as the enemy, closing the door and leaving them out-- that's a powerful choice, one with lots of nasty history, and one  I'd urge you to not make lightly. 

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So, to be clear, it's *bigotry* now to say that people who were born with, and retain, a penis are male even if they say they are female. 

 

And women who want to just be known as women because their biology (not their choices) dictate that they are _women_ should stfu about what other people call them now but don't you EVER dare to call a person with a penis who says he's a woman a man because that's literally violence. 

 

This thread started out being about whether or not same-sex spaces are beneficial under any circumstances. But has devolved into "what is a woman, really?" If we don't even know what a woman is (or, to put it another way, if a woman can be LITERALLY ANYONE), then we certainly can not address whether or not they need to have access to female-only spaces in some situations. This way of thinking works in favor, not of inclusivity for transwomen who themselves will surely find that they need their own spaces in some situations*, but in favor of men who want to retain unfettered access to women's bodies and emotional lives. 

 

I feel very certain men never have to wrestle the very definition of what they biologically *are* in social spaces in order to retain the right to congregate away from the very class of people who have oppressed them and done violence to them from time out of mind every once in a while, either to be in a physically vulnerable position or just to get a smegging break. 

 

*I mean, if you came across a club that transwomen have set up for themselves and they were like, "listen guys, we really just want a space here to be just with ourselves for a beat," for whatever reason, would you name that bigotry? No? I wouldn't either. 

 

I understand that the comparison does not make sense if you have decided that there is literally zero difference between transwomen and born-women. But I think that's an incredibly obtuse way to think about it, and ultimately does a disservice to both of the groups of women in question . 

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Oh, I completely understand your argument.   

 

Here is another way of looking at it. Most self-identified feminists (like myself) are relatively privileged in terms of class and race, and trans people are statistically much more likely to be young, minority and poor.  Now both groups do experience difficulties and oppression.  How can we help each other?  In particular, how can those of us who were born women and privileged  use our political capital to help these kids? Trans people are not trying to take away, remove , dismantle, destroy our hard-fought rights.  They just want to be let in because they feel like it's the place for them.  Of course there are some bumps to work out, and it's not simple.  But viewing trans folks as the enemy, closing the door and leaving them out-- that's a powerful choice, one with lots of nasty history, and one  I'd urge you to not make lightly. 

 

I don't. I know Sadie and LMD don't. 

 

When we say things like "people who were born female and people who weren't, but choose to live as female are different in tangible ways," people like YOU tell us we are bigots and that we "view trans folks as enemies." Bollucks. 

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Oh, I completely understand your argument.   

 

Here is another way of looking at it. Most self-identified feminists (like myself) are relatively privileged in terms of class and race, and trans people are statistically much more likely to be young, minority and poor.  Now both groups do experience difficulties and oppression.  How can we help each other?  In particular, how can those of us who were born women and privileged  use our political capital to help these kids? Trans people are not trying to take away, remove , dismantle, destroy our hard-fought rights.  They just want to be let in because they feel like it's the place for them.  Of course there are some bumps to work out, and it's not simple.  But viewing trans folks as the enemy, closing the door and leaving them out-- that's a powerful choice, one with lots of nasty history, and one  I'd urge you to not make lightly. 

 

I guess what I wonder (and I'm not entirely directing this at you), what makes a person female.  Simply that they say they are?  KWIM?  I personally do not mind including transwomen in women's spaces, but I understand why not everyone feels the way I do and I think those that don't see it my way have valid arguments.  If this stuff did not matter (if being female vs male), we would not be having this conversation at all.  But apparently it has some sort of meaning to be female.  So what makes a person female?  Being born with the right parts (biology)?  Is it some sort of feeling?  KWIM? 

 

I don't see it as some sort of widespread plot of men conspiring to invade women only spaces (some see it this way).  But I understand the arguments of hey is it really "just" about someone choosing a side?  I don't think so.  However, I do understand that that is NOT what most transwomen are doing (simply choosing to declare themselves female). 

 

So, I dunno.  It's not an easy situation. 

Edited by SparklyUnicorn
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So, to be clear, it's *bigotry* now to say that people who were born with, and retain, a penis are male even if they say they are female. 

 

And women who want to just be known as women because their biology (not their choices) dictate that they are _women_ should stfu about what other people call them now but don't you EVER dare to call a person with a penis who says he's a woman a man because that's literally violence. 

 

This thread started out being about whether or not same-sex spaces are beneficial under any circumstances. But has devolved into "what is a woman, really?" If we don't even know what a woman is (or, to put it another way, if a woman can be LITERALLY ANYONE), then we certainly can not address whether or not they need to have access to female-only spaces in some situations. This way of thinking works in favor, not of inclusivity for transwomen who themselves will surely find that they need their own spaces in some situations*, but in favor of men who want to retain unfettered access to women's bodies and emotional lives. 

 

I feel very certain men never have to wrestle the very definition of what they biologically *are* in social spaces in order to retain the right to congregate away from the very class of people who have oppressed them and done violence to them from time out of mind every once in a while, either to be in a physically vulnerable position or just to get a smegging break. 

 

*I mean, if you came across a club that transwomen have set up for themselves and they were like, "listen guys, we really just want a space here to be just with ourselves for a beat," for whatever reason, would you name that bigotry? No? I wouldn't either. 

 

I understand that the comparison does not make sense if you have decided that there is literally zero difference between transwomen and born-women. But I think that's an incredibly obtuse way to think about it, and ultimately does a disservice to both of the groups of women in question . 

 

This made me think of these crazy videos I saw recently on youtube.  The person in the video was trying to teach gender concepts to young children and the person (I am avoiding pronouns here) said cis women are people who have accepted the gender people assigned to them at birth.  What the what.  As if randomly, for no reason whatsoever, someone comes along and decides "Sparkly, I think you will be a female" and I have accepted that.  What the....come on now.  That is the craziest thing I have ever heard in my entire life.  The person was demonstrating the points using weird puppets too. I'm going to have nightmares about those damn puppets. 

 

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  However, I do understand that that is NOT what most transwomen are doing (simply choosing to declare themselves female). 

So, I dunno.  It's not an easy situation. 

 

 

^^ I agree. 

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This made me think of these crazy videos I saw recently on youtube.  The person in the video was trying to teach gender concepts to young children and the person (I am avoiding pronouns here) said cis women are people who have accepted the gender people assigned to them at birth.  What the what.  As if randomly, for no reason whatsoever, someone comes along and decides "Sparkly, I think you will be a female" and I have accepted that.  What the....come on now.  That is the craziest thing I have ever heard in my entire life.  The person was demonstrating the points using weird puppets too. I'm going to have nightmares about those damn puppets. 

 

 

 

Super duper. 

 

It's not like sex is assigned at random.

 

Gender is not assigned at all. It's culturally proscribed. Which is why it's my opinion everyone should have equal access to all the trappings of all gender identities. 

Edited by OKBud
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So, to be clear, it's *bigotry* now to say that people who were born with, and retain, a penis are male even if they say they are female. 

 

And women who want to just be known as women because their biology (not their choices) dictate that they are _women_ should stfu about what other people call them now but don't you EVER dare to call a person with a penis who says he's a woman a man because that's literally violence. 

 

This thread started out being about whether or not same-sex spaces are beneficial under any circumstances. But has devolved into "what is a woman, really?" If we don't even know what a woman is (or, to put it another way, if a woman can be LITERALLY ANYONE), then we certainly can not address whether or not they need to have access to female-only spaces in some situations. This way of thinking works in favor, not of inclusivity for transwomen who themselves will surely find that they need their own spaces in some situations*, but in favor of men who want to retain unfettered access to women's bodies and emotional lives. 

 

I feel very certain men never have to wrestle the very definition of what they biologically *are* in social spaces in order to retain the right to congregate away from the very class of people who have oppressed them and done violence to them from time out of mind every once in a while, either to be in a physically vulnerable position or just to get a smegging break. 

 

*I mean, if you came across a club that transwomen have set up for themselves and they were like, "listen guys, we really just want a space here to be just with ourselves for a beat," for whatever reason, would you name that bigotry? No? I wouldn't either. 

 

I understand that the comparison does not make sense if you have decided that there is literally zero difference between transwomen and born-women. But I think that's an incredibly obtuse way to think about it, and ultimately does a disservice to both of the groups of women in question . 

 

Do you think there is any context at all where a person could be considered bigoted against trans people?

We know that trans people are a vulnerable  population.   More likely to face violence, more likely to face job discrimination, etc.  Is that not a function of bigotry?

People working towards making sure trans people do not have access to healthcare. Is that not a function of bigotry?

If it isn't, what is it?

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I don't. I know Sadie and LMD don't. 

 

When we say things like "people who were born female and people who weren't, but choose to live as female are different in tangible ways," people like YOU tell us we are bigots and that we "view trans folks as enemies." Bollucks. 

 

 

"Choose" is the key word, I guess. These argument mirror what gay folks had to deal with for decades.  

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"Choose" is the key word, I guess. These argument mirror what gay folks had to deal with for decades.

Not really.

 

Sexual attraction is mostly innate (and largely biological.)

 

Wanting to live as a woman, when born a man (and these people have my unconditional support afa human rights go) may ALSO be innate, but does not change the physical universe in which makes and females a physically separate sexes. It ALSO does not change the social reality of patriarchical institutions and principles, and their effects on women.

 

To answer your earlier, fallacious and baiting question, yes obviously bigotry against trans individuals and communities exist.

 

What I say is that it's not gender-critical feminists that perpetuate that bigotry by the simple act of believing in dimorphic mammal biological sex.

 

As an example, I recently read a transactivist saying that "not only female cows make milk." Well, sorry bud but yes.... Only female cows make milk.

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I never actively chose to be a straight cisgender female. It just is who I am. If the world were flipped, and it was expected that I would be a transman attracted to women, I don’t think it would matter, because my brain just doesn’t work that way.

 

I kind of assume most Gay, Bi, Trans, Asexual, etc folks are the same. They didn’t choose, they just are, contrary to societal norms.

 

Ultimately, most people, male or female, trans or cis or agender, straight, gay, bi, asexual are good, reasonable people. I believe that. And most people don’t make me feel nervous. But when I do feel uncomfortable (like having to pass a group of loud, boisterous individuals making sexual comments in order to get to a restroom when the hallway is narrow enough that I could easily be penned in), I want the ability to get out of and avoid that situation.

 

The person who committed rape, transitioned in prison and then demonstrated the same behaviors in a women’s prison? Well, I might believe that he chose with ulterior motives. And that is one situation where the victims cannot get away. The same applies in a locked psychiatric hospital where room doors cannot be shut. There needs to be a way for individuals to be able to say “I don’t feel safe†and have that taken seriously, whether they’re a kid being bullied at school, experiencing workplace harrassment, or in a prison. And I think that if this were the case, across the board, there would be a lot less concern about trans folks-because they just want to feel safe, too.

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I never actively chose to be a straight cisgender female. It just is who I am. If the world were flipped, and it was expected that I would be a transman attracted to women, I don’t think it would matter, because my brain just doesn’t work that way.

 

I kind of assume most Gay, Bi, Trans, Asexual, etc folks are the same. They didn’t choose, they just are, contrary to societal norms.

 

Ultimately, most people, male or female, trans or cis or agender, straight, gay, bi, asexual are good, reasonable people. I believe that. And most people don’t make me feel nervous. But when I do feel uncomfortable (like having to pass a group of loud, boisterous individuals making sexual comments in order to get to a restroom when the hallway is narrow enough that I could easily be penned in), I want the ability to get out of and avoid that situation.

 

The person who committed rape, transitioned in prison and then demonstrated the same behaviors in a women’s prison? Well, I might believe that he chose with ulterior motives. And that is one situation where the victims cannot get away. The same applies in a locked psychiatric hospital where room doors cannot be shut. There needs to be a way for individuals to be able to say “I don’t feel safe†and have that taken seriously, whether they’re a kid being bullied at school, experiencing workplace harrassment, or in a prison. And I think that if this were the case, across the board, there would be a lot less concern about trans folks-because they just want to feel safe, too.

100%

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There are just too many variations to expect businesses and nonprofits to have budgets and rules that meet all the preferences.  I think in some situations people just have to suck it up.  As long as there is reasonable privacy when you're naked and you aren't sharing a bed with anyone, and there is enough security to prevent attacks, the rest of it is just comfort.  My comfort vs. his vs. hers vs. yours.  The idea of assigning these preferences some hierarchy of rights makes no sense to me.

 

But personally, I don't really care whether I'm temporarily sleeping in the same room with a guy or a gal, as long as we are all clothed and nobody is touching me.  I'm also perfectly happy to sleep alone.  So maybe I'm just too easy to please.

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One thing I often wonder about as a seasoned traveler.  On long flights and layovers, everyone is a lot more relaxed regardless of the fact that they might be sitting right next to (or squished between) strangers of any gender.  People partially disrobe and go to sleep less than an inch away from someone that they wouldn't dream of sharing a dorm with.  How does that work?

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Not really.

 

Sexual attraction is mostly innate (and largely biological.)

 

Wanting to live as a woman, when born a man (and these people have my unconditional support afa human rights go) may ALSO be innate, but does not change the physical universe in which makes and females a physically separate sexes. It ALSO does not change the social reality of patriarchical institutions and principles, and their effects on women.

 

To answer your earlier, fallacious and baiting question, yes obviously bigotry against trans individuals and communities exist.

 

What I say is that it's not gender-critical feminists that perpetuate that bigotry by the simple act of believing in dimorphic mammal biological sex.

 

As an example, I recently read a transactivist saying that "not only female cows make milk." Well, sorry bud but yes.... Only female cows make milk.

 

So I was replying to your comment

"So, to be clear, it's *bigotry* now to say that people who were born with, and retain, a penis are male even if they say they are female."

You kinda have to acknowledge that trans women are not male, or not. If you always look at a trans woman as a man, I do think that is bigotry. Fundamental rejection and intolerance of an identity is bigotry.

 

Most every believes in innate, biological sex.  This is a question of gender, not sex.

 

As for that quote, I'd have to see the context, I'm wondering if it was something about how lots of females don't make milk but still get treated as female.   I mean, I don't know about cows, but being able to do "woman things" like bear children and make milk is not required to be considered a woman.    Again getting back to the parallels with gay people, the argument "the purpose of marriage is to produce children" was often met with "but infertile couples are allowed to marry so, no it isn't".   I could be wrong about the train of though... just speculating.

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One thing I often wonder about as a seasoned traveler.  On long flights and layovers, everyone is a lot more relaxed regardless of the fact that they might be sitting right next to (or squished between) strangers of any gender.  People partially disrobe and go to sleep less than an inch away from someone that they wouldn't dream of sharing a dorm with.  How does that work?

 

That's an interesting observation.  I  think there is a sense of privacy on a plane, everyone deliberately pretends to be alone-- kinda like how you can feel safer on a crowded city sidewalk than you could in a small town, sometimes, because there is a mutual decision to "stay in your own zone". No awkwardness about should I chitchat at every passerby or just smile.  Just listen to your music, text your friends, be alone with your thoughts or whatever in your own bubble.  

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One thing I often wonder about as a seasoned traveler. On long flights and layovers, everyone is a lot more relaxed regardless of the fact that they might be sitting right next to (or squished between) strangers of any gender. People partially disrobe and go to sleep less than an inch away from someone that they wouldn't dream of sharing a dorm with. How does that work?

It’s not working that well, actually.

 

midair sexual assaults have increased by 66% from fiscal year 2014 to 2017.

https://www.cnn.com/2017/12/27/politics/women-sexual-assaults-harassment-commercial-flights/index.html

 

I should add, that statistic is based only on the incidents that the airlines actually report to law enforcement, which is estimated to be less than half of the actual incidents.

Edited by Greta
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So I was replying to your comment

"So, to be clear, it's *bigotry* now to say that people who were born with, and retain, a penis are male even if they say they are female."

You kinda have to acknowledge that trans women are not male, or not. If you always look at a trans woman as a man, I do think that is bigotry. Fundamental rejection and intolerance of an identity is bigotry.

 

Most every believes in innate, biological sex. This is a question of gender, not sex.

 

As for that quote, I'd have to see the context, I'm wondering if it was something about how lots of females don't make milk but still get treated as female. I mean, I don't know about cows, but being able to do "woman things" like bear children and make milk is not required to be considered a woman. Again getting back to the parallels with gay people, the argument "the purpose of marriage is to produce children" was often met with "but infertile couples are allowed to marry so, no it isn't". I could be wrong about the train of though... just speculating.

Trans women are MALE. Because, as you say, it's a question of gender not innate sex.

 

I do not believe it is bigotry to say so.

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One thing I often wonder about as a seasoned traveler. On long flights and layovers, everyone is a lot more relaxed regardless of the fact that they might be sitting right next to (or squished between) strangers of any gender. People partially disrobe and go to sleep less than an inch away from someone that they wouldn't dream of sharing a dorm with. How does that work?

When I am traveling alone, the boarding pass counter always assigned me an aisle seat next to an empty seat or a female. Guess I must look pathetically small size and aisle seat makes it easier for me to be able to get out of my seat and get help.

 

If I checked in as a family or a big group of colleague or friends, I get window seats usually with family/friend/colleague. If I don’t want to seat next to someone, I could always let the boarding pass counter know and they would try to accommodate. I do tend to check in at least 3 hours ahead so that helps.

 

Now with most flights allowing people to pick their seats when buying, my husband just aim for the two seater rows or aisle seats if possible.

 

I have taken overnight coach trains to different places and also the overnight Megabus from Baltimore to Toronto. The coach train I tooked just dimmed the lights but the Megabus did turn off the lights so people could sleep. The overnight bus I took with family from Bangkok, Thailand to Chang Mai, Thailand also turned off the light so people could sleep. I do think sexual harassment (including males being harassed) in public transport, Greyhound buses, tour buses are something people are aware of.

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