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StellaM

Single sex spaces and segregation - what do you think ? Needed or not ?

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I have been on psych wards.  All of them were mixed gender.  Rooms were either private or two people of same sex.  Trans people were all in private rooms.  Bathrooms were attached to bedrooms.  Public spaces were mixed gender.  Nobody was allowed to go in somebody else's room.  

 

I have no worries about transgender women in women's bathrooms with private stalls.  The people who I see as most vulnerable are actually trans men trying to use men's restrooms.  

 

I am a big fan of more gender neutral/ family restrooms and changing rooms in various places.  I don't mind there being men's and women's rooms as well, but there definitely need to be spaces where gender is not defined for those with special needs:  parents with children, people with special needs with a companion of differing gender, trans folks.  

 

I don't know what the answer is with prisons.  I think in general, it probably is to put people in the prison that they identify with.  Trans women should almost certainly be in women's prisons.  Trans men.....I don't know.  I would ask them.  

 

I don't like most single gender activities in churches, but I don't hate that they exist.  I DO like the idea of their being both single gender and co-ed schools.  I think boys and girls can both benefit from single sex schools, but I don't think that should be the only option.  

 

As a rape survivor (wow, I've never said that publicly before), I worry about my safety in all sorts of places, but bizarrely, I have often preferred male doctors over female ones.  Not always, but I often have.  Oddly, I guess.  Psychiatrists especially.  It probably has more to do with personality, but there are mother issues at play, too.  I appreciate choices.

So...the rooms people slept in when they had to share were same sex, right ? Do you think that provision, where patients must share sleeping space, should be upheld ?

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I never said that situation would be fine. I have no idea what the setup is like where you are. 

 

I stated I've never seen or heard of hospital floors/wards being sex segregated. I just don't think it's a thing here. I've never seen a room like what you describe. When I had ds, I was put into a room with three other beds. The patients were all women but, again, most of the husbands/significant others were there the whole time as well - including sleeping and while we showered. 

 

Ds' experience at a psych hospital was obviously very different from your dd's as they were all two to a room. So, ds roomed with a female (this was prior to him coming out to us as being transgender). The room next to him had two males. There wasn't just a large open room of beds. There were no main doors on any of the rooms but all the rooms had a private bathroom with a door. Again, where ds was there was a lot of staff and security as well.

That doesn't really answer my question. When girls and women on a psych ward DO have to sleep in shared quarters should those quarters be unisex or not ? Or should we continue to segregate by sex for women's safety and comfort?

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Oh for goodness sake, it was a throwaway because I'm sick of dealing with entitled male b/s, the move to desegregate single sex provisions for women being but one manifestation.

 

But even if it wasn't a throwaway ? Wanting to have single sex spaces is not some deeply weird thing, and it's kinda misogynistic to suggest it is.

 

I didn't say it was weird.  I agreed with Bluegoat that a life without men isn't something I would enjoy, and I generally don't have much in common with those who would.  Nothing about that is misogynistic.

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That doesn't really answer my question. When girls and women on a psych ward DO have to sleep in shared quarters should those quarters be unisex or not ? Or should we continue to segregate by sex for women's safety and comfort?

 

I'm fine with hospitals and psych wards being just how they've always been in my experience. The rooms are same sex but the floors/wards/whatever are mixed. I also don't think of hospital rooms being sex segregated solely for women's safety and comfort. I actually find that addition odd. 

 

Honestly, my concern when ds was hospitalized in a psychiatric facility was not sexual abuse of any kind. (And he was still living as a female to us). My concern was him killing himself. If I had no trust in them keeping him safe from sexual abuse, I definitely wouldn't assume they could prevent him from killing himself and I would fight tooth and nail to get him out. 

 

I'm aware there are some awful places and, in my experience, those places are for violent offenders so it's bad. Ds wasn't violent and neither were any of the other patients (they would have been sent to the bad places). It truly just wasn't a concern for us at that time. 

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I'm fine with hospitals and psych wards being just how they've always been in my experience. The rooms are same sex but the floors/wards/whatever are mixed. I also don't think of hospital rooms being sex segregated solely for women's safety and comfort. I actually find that addition odd.

 

Honestly, my concern when ds was hospitalized in a psychiatric facility was not sexual abuse of any kind. (And he was still living as a female to us). My concern was him killing himself. If I had no trust in them keeping him safe from sexual abuse, I definitely wouldn't assume they could prevent him from killing himself and I would fight tooth and nail to get him out.

 

I'm aware there are some awful places and, in my experience, those places are for violent offenders so it's bad. Ds wasn't violent and neither were any of the other patients (they would have been sent to the bad places). It truly just wasn't a concern for us at that time.

My bold. Okay, what do you think the reason for sex segregation is? If you're fine with it staying that way, why?

 

Eta - I'm not trying to be snarky with those questions, tone is hard on the internet! I'm genuinely curious.

 

I'm glad that your family had access to needed services in a tough time.

Edited by LMD
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I'm fine with hospitals and psych wards being just how they've always been in my experience. The rooms are same sex but the floors/wards/whatever are mixed. I also don't think of hospital rooms being sex segregated solely for women's safety and comfort. I actually find that addition odd. 

 

Honestly, my concern when ds was hospitalized in a psychiatric facility was not sexual abuse of any kind. (And he was still living as a female to us). My concern was him killing himself. If I had no trust in them keeping him safe from sexual abuse, I definitely wouldn't assume they could prevent him from killing himself and I would fight tooth and nail to get him out. 

 

I'm aware there are some awful places and, in my experience, those places are for violent offenders so it's bad. Ds wasn't violent and neither were any of the other patients (they would have been sent to the bad places). It truly just wasn't a concern for us at that time.

So yes, you think there is a (limited) place for same sex provisions in hospital.

 

My dd was in an awful place, and she is not a violent offender. I'm really not sure why you felt the need to add that.

 

Thank you for answering the question.

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Well, any room where people are sleeping, I would think would be segregated by gender.  Presumably there is the possibility of changing clothing and such.  The wards I was on were coed, but the rooms with beds in them were single gender.  I actually think all hospital rooms should be single occupancy for infection control, but single gender rooms are okay in some instances.  The place where your daughter was sounds pretty awful.  I'm so sorry.

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So yes, you think there is a (limited) place for same sex provisions in hospital.

 

My dd was in an awful place, and she is not a violent offender. I'm really not sure why you felt the need to add that.

 

Thank you for answering the question.

 

I  have only been trying to explain my own experiences, feelings, and thoughts. We are in different countries and have obviously had very different experiences with our dc being hospitalized in psychiatric facilities. I'm also thinking there is some weird language issue going on here regarding sex segregation in hospitals. If not, then they are definitely very different where you live. 

 

Honestly, I don't think there is a need for those provisions in any of the hospitals I have experience with but I am fine with them staying the way they are. I do feel transgender patients should be in a room with how they identify or a private room. 

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Well, any room where people are sleeping, I would think would be segregated by gender.  Presumably there is the possibility of changing clothing and such.  The wards I was on were coed, but the rooms with beds in them were single gender.  I actually think all hospital rooms should be single occupancy for infection control, but single gender rooms are okay in some instances.  The place where your daughter was sounds pretty awful.  I'm so sorry.

It was pretty bad.

 

Nothing to do with violence though.

 

Everything to do with ending up at a hospital in a poor area.

 

I am glad you agree that sleeping quarters, if shared, should be same sex.

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I had misunderstood the communal washing area mentioned earlier, but I hadn't even thought of that.  That is bad enough in a women's restroom.  

 

Personally I don't want to see that.  No offense.

 

They do this in other countries (the communal hand washing) and I never felt like it was weird.  It isn't that much different from having water fountains outside the restroom.  But one possible solution is to offer a water spigot right in the stall. They also do that in some countries.  It's not like they would have to run a new pipe.  The spigot could be a simple arrangement vs. a whole sink.  And they could have a couple sinks outside for folks to finish up.

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So, you have mixed sex wards for sleeping ? Male patients sleeping in the same open ward as female patients ? male and female patients accessing the same shower cubicles?

 

 

In my experience, this is also how it is in geriatric centers and hospitals.  They expect people to respect obvious boundaries.  I guess most people do so without needing physical walls / locked doors to enforce it.

 

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In my experience, this is also how it is in geriatric centers and hospitals.  They expect people to respect obvious boundaries.  I guess most people do so without needing physical walls / locked doors to enforce it.

 

 

I think in some psychiatric institutions the issue is the patients may or may not be reliable.  Even those not really prone to violence may become agitated or confused or not recognize certain boundaries.  There are probably some places where that isn't so much an issue because of the nature of the institution, but even in the low security wards I've been in, there are people who can begin to behave abnormally for one reason or another.

 

Anyway - I suspect most people would want non-private sleeping rooms to be single sex, not just for security really but also just for privacy.  We no longer have large dormitory style wards in any of the hospitals here, though I've seen rooms with six or eight in overflow areas when a hospital was short of beds.  The other place I can think of that commonly has dormitory arrangements is shelters for the homeless, and they all seem to be single sex.

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In my experience, this is also how it is in geriatric centers and hospitals.  They expect people to respect obvious boundaries.  I guess most people do so without needing physical walls / locked doors to enforce it.

 

 

Do you know anyone with a severe mental illness?

 

They don't always respect obvious boundaries. 

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I've actually shared sleeping space with men in the army.  It was ok, but because of the circumstances it wasn't really ever something that seemed unsafe.  And I never was paired up with a guy I was really uncomfortable with to share just the two of us.  Had I been, it would have been very uncomfortable.  But even then it was always less easy in terms of privacy - they were low privacy setting somewhat anyway though so it was less noticeable.  And short term too.

 

That being said - it's probably the push to self-id and to say that gender id needs no connection to a desire to change the body or even present socially in a particular way that would really give me pause about sharing space. Because ultimately for me that's about sex and has little to do with gender.

 

 

 

 

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I kind of feel the world should be like college campuses, where often there are all-female/all male housing options, as well as co-ed by suite ones. This seems to be the case as far as bathroom layout in campus buildings as well. Lots of options for everyone to pick what they're most comfortable with. I don't feel that anyone should be forced to sleep/live/use the bathroom in a situation where they feel unsafe. For me, the dad standing at the doorway of the women's bathroom because he didn't want to take his 5 yr old DD into the men's would not make me feel at all less safe if he went in with his daughter (nor would a guy who walks in, goes to a stall, closes the door, pees, exits, washes his hands, and leaves), and a single stall in a gas station in the middle of nowhere can still make holding it until the "next facilities, 150 miles" look like the better option.
 

I have days where never having to deal with another male is appealing. I also have days where never having to deal with another female is appealing-and days where an island with some friendly animals and good food/water supplies sounds awesome!

 

 

 

 

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I know some women aren't fans of enforced segregation in places of religion, but I'm sure some women feel differently.

 

Do you feel those places will or should maintain sex segregation?

 

If we see increasingly gender neutral facilities in the secular world, do you think it will impact on women from religions where sex segregation is required in various forms?

 

For example, my local area has a high Muslim population, and lots of women swim at the local pool in burkinis. If changing rooms are not strictly single sex, do you think that might impact on their ability to use the pools?

 

Just like with other religious groups, i think some Muslims would be happy with something more integrated and some with less.  I haven't lived in the US in a while, but when I was in grad school the community there (even waaaay back then ;) ) had a pretty serious split in the women's side between those who valued having a separate space and those who preferred to have one communal space for all.  What I really could see happening, if it hasn't already to an extent, is that there will be many mosques in a given city and they each have their own ways of dealing with this issue, so people will go to whichever suits them.  This is already the case for cultural preferences/backgrounds.

 

I am jaded enough myself after all these years to actually like the idea of a completely women-only mosque.. not just a women's area in a mosque, the whole thing.  But there will be a lot of difference of opinion and preference, and as the community grows the possibility of having a range of choices will likely also increase.

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I don't think that is what she meant.  Their are bathroom designs where the communal hand washing area is truly out in the open.  Our schools here have bathrooms like that the handwashing area is in between the two bathrooms and is open to the hallway. There is no small enclosed space. 

 

That's how our school is. I think it keeps teacher eyes on the students as much as possible -- smaller time for kids to push each other around/do other kid stuff out of the eyes of the teacher.

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Just like with other religious groups, i think some Muslims would be happy with something more integrated and some with less.  I haven't lived in the US in a while, but when I was in grad school the community there (even waaaay back then ;) ) had a pretty serious split in the women's side between those who valued having a separate space and those who preferred to have one communal space for all.  What I really could see happening, if it hasn't already to an extent, is that there will be many mosques in a given city and they each have their own ways of dealing with this issue, so people will go to whichever suits them.  This is already the case for cultural preferences/backgrounds.

 

I am jaded enough myself after all these years to actually like the idea of a completely women-only mosque.. not just a women's area in a mosque, the whole thing.  But there will be a lot of difference of opinion and preference, and as the community grows the possibility of having a range of choices will likely also increase.

 

I think because there are so many ways to look at this.  Is it separate out of respect, is it separate out of a sense of "other" (one group being the wrong kind of other), and are they simply separate but equal, or are they separate but not equal?

 

A lame example....  In school we were often segregated in gym class (which by the way at that point in time was not in line with the rules, we were not supposed to be segregated).  The boys played real sports and we'd do crap like "power walking".  This is not separate with equal quality in my mind.  There are many examples where separation does not mean separate, but equal. 

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I kind of feel the world should be like college campuses, where often there are all-female/all male housing options, as well as co-ed by suite ones. This seems to be the case as far as bathroom layout in campus buildings as well. Lots of options for everyone to pick what they're most comfortable with. I don't feel that anyone should be forced to sleep/live/use the bathroom in a situation where they feel unsafe. For me, the dad standing at the doorway of the women's bathroom because he didn't want to take his 5 yr old DD into the men's would not make me feel at all less safe if he went in with his daughter (nor would a guy who walks in, goes to a stall, closes the door, pees, exits, washes his hands, and leaves), and a single stall in a gas station in the middle of nowhere can still make holding it until the "next facilities, 150 miles" look like the better option.

 

I have days where never having to deal with another male is appealing. I also have days where never having to deal with another female is appealing-and days where an island with some friendly animals and good food/water supplies sounds awesome!

 

That WOULD be ideal for sure.  I was in an all female dorm (entire building) out of choice.  They did have co-ed (by floor) dorms and co-ed apartments on campus as well.  Something for everyone.  Obviously this is not always possible though. 

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I'd like to throw in another question if I may.  How do you all feel about single-sex college dorms?  

 

My daughter's first-choice school is a science and engineering school where male students outnumber female ones by something like a 4 to 1 ratio.  And they have two all male dormitories, and the rest are mixed.  No all female dorms.  That seems a little odd to me (why the need for male-only dorms at a school that's already so male dominated? that would seem to make it that much more important to have at least one female-only dorm!) but it is what it is.  I can't figure out from the website if the mixed-sex buildings are segregated by floor or by room only or what.

 

Her second-choice school is a much bigger state school, and it does have two female-only dorms as well as several mixed ones.

 

Times have changed.  When I was in college the only mixed-sex dorms available were for graduate students.  ALL of the undergraduate housing was segregated.  But I guess that doesn't matter now!

 

DD was already a little nervous about going to such a distinctly male-dominated school, so I'm not sure how she's going to take this news about housing.  (She is planning to finish up her Associate's degree here first, so she won't be attending there until 2019 or 2020, so we haven't even done a campus tour yet.  It's 800 miles away from us, so we haven't been able to work out a visit yet.)  Just curious what you think.  Would you want your daughter to have access to all-female housing?  

 

 

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I'd like to throw in another question if I may.  How do you all feel about single-sex college dorms?  

 

My daughter's first-choice school is a science and engineering school where male students outnumber female ones by something like a 4 to 1 ratio.  And they have two all male dormitories, and the rest are mixed.  No all female dorms.  That seems a little odd to me (why the need for male-only dorms at a school that's already so male dominated? that would seem to make it that much more important to have at least one female-only dorm!) but it is what it is.  I can't figure out from the website if the mixed-sex buildings are segregated by floor or by room only or what.

 

Her second-choice school is a much bigger state school, and it does have two female-only dorms as well as several mixed ones.

 

Times have changed.  When I was in college the only mixed-sex dorms available were for graduate students.  ALL of the undergraduate housing was segregated.  But I guess that doesn't matter now!

 

DD was already a little nervous about going to such a distinctly male-dominated school, so I'm not sure how she's going to take this news about housing.  (She is planning to finish up her Associate's degree here first, so she won't be attending there until 2019 or 2020, so we haven't even done a campus tour yet.  It's 800 miles away from us, so we haven't been able to work out a visit yet.)  Just curious what you think.  Would you want your daughter to have access to all-female housing?  

 

I was in an all female dorm, and I was aware of the rules in the mixed dorms.  Honestly, it was not a big deal either way.  Although we were an all female dorm, males could come in during the day.  And the mixed dorms did not allow students to be in the opposite gender floors at night.  And there is always the issue of students breaking the rules (or doing stupid stuff like propping open doors at night to let friends in).  We were always able to lock the doors to our own rooms though. 

 

 

 

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So my dd's right to single sex provision when she is at her most vulnerable on a psych ward - irrelevant? Let me tell you who is vulnerable in that situation - anyone with a freaking vagina. Women have a right to safety and dignity too, and same sex provision goes some way - not all - to achieving that.

 

But nice to know people are happy to throw female psych ward patients under the bus.

 

Sadie, no. You misunderstand me, or I did not explain thoroughly enough. 

 

What I meant when I said let the transgender population tell us what they need for facilities such as prisons & hospitals, was more of "if we need to ADD facilities to keep transgendered people safe, because neither single-sex designation quite meets their needs, then we should ADD that for their safety, so that they, too, have a safe place in a prison, or a hospital, or a psych ward, or a wherever else that places currently are not safe for them." 

 

I did not, do not, mean, and did not mean to imply, that single sex places thus also need to go away; what I was imagining was more....a male ward, a female ward, and then perhaps a divided ward that has a trans female and trans male section. I don't know what the transgender population needs in a place such as that, so I don't know and don't presume to know what a "trans ward" should look like. I don't know which areas are fine to keep common, which areas need to be segregated, in which parts/locations would segregation be of benefit to them.

 

But in no way, at all, did I mean to say that the needs of the trans population are somehow greater than the needs of cisgender males or females, and in no way did I mean that we need to completely eliminate single-sex rooms/facilities in hospitals, prisons, etc. 

 

I don't know that I've ever been in an actual psych ward, so I have no idea how those are segregated currently. When my mom was in, we were too young to visit. When my MIL was in, we were only able to visit her in a common area (like a lobby), and weren't allowed on the floor so I have no idea if the rooms were divided. I would imagine something akin to a single-sex dorm situation, but I have no idea, having not been there myself as of yet. 

 

Absolutely prisons, hospitals (psych wards or otherwise), etc, have an obligation to protect and keep safe *everyone* who is there. Period. I did not, do not, mean to imply that the need for safety & security of a cisgender female is in any way less than the need for safety of a transgender person, &/or should be compromised in any way to meet the needs of other residents. There MUST be a way to maintain the safety and security of everyone in that setting, I just don't know what that looks like, at all, which is all I was trying to convey. 

 

Perhaps better wording would have been something like "hospital & prison staff should consider the needs of the transgender population alongside the needs of cisgender men and women so that safe, secure facilities can be designed/redesigned to meet the unique needs of each group."  

 

I only meant, that I, as a cisgender woman, can only speak to what makes me feel safe. And maybe even add, as a cisgender woman who's never been to prison or (as of yet) spent time in a psych ward as more than a visitor (and other than labor & delivery, I really don't remember my hospital visits being to segregated floors/wards at all, other than single-sex rooms, but certainly not whole single-sex floors.....). 

 

What I clumsily tried to say was "let those who have the need be the one to tell us what the need is, and then listen to them, and then do that."  I just messed up my wording. I hope you can understand what I truly meant, and know I absolutely care about the safety of your daughter. I'm sorry I sounded like I didn't. 

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If it’s co-ed by wing or floor, it’s not really that big of a deal-all the women end up clustered anyway (I once lived in a dorm where the top 3 floors were all women and the bottom floor had one wing of guys and one that was common space. Similar situation- a school with a lot more men than women, so basically that dorm was the women’s dorm, with some overflow guys who didn’t get into other dorms).

 

My brother went to a former women’s college, which had just started to admit men, and at the time, one side of one dorm for guys (and no urinals-apparently the buildings were built with enough bathroom capacity to allow separate men’s and women’s, but they had all been built with the same layout-and many of the women would still use whatever was closest even though that bathroom was labeled for men. He got used to it).

 

I have never seen a co-ed by suite with mixed floors dorm that had the large common bath/shower set up for the whole floor-at most of the colleges we’ve visited, the best way to get a semi-private bath is to elect a mixed dorm. An All female or All-male one is more likely to have the shared by the entire wing set up.

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I imagine the all male dorms are a logistics thing. There simply aren’t enough women to be able to make all forms co-ed. At some point, you run out of women.

 

 

I'd like to throw in another question if I may. How do you all feel about single-sex college dorms?

 

My daughter's first-choice school is a science and engineering school where male students outnumber female ones by something like a 4 to 1 ratio. And they have two all male dormitories, and the rest are mixed. No all female dorms. That seems a little odd to me (why the need for male-only dorms at a school that's already so male dominated? that would seem to make it that much more important to have at least one female-only dorm!) but it is what it is. I can't figure out from the website if the mixed-sex buildings are segregated by floor or by room only or what.

 

Her second-choice school is a much bigger state school, and it does have two female-only dorms as well as several mixed ones.

 

Times have changed. When I was in college the only mixed-sex dorms available were for graduate students. ALL of the undergraduate housing was segregated. But I guess that doesn't matter now!

 

DD was already a little nervous about going to such a distinctly male-dominated school, so I'm not sure how she's going to take this news about housing. (She is planning to finish up her Associate's degree here first, so she won't be attending there until 2019 or 2020, so we haven't even done a campus tour yet. It's 800 miles away from us, so we haven't been able to work out a visit yet.) Just curious what you think. Would you want your daughter to have access to all-female housing?

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All the colleges we've visited have had all female and male dorms as choices. They've also had mixed dorms with some floors all one sex and some floors co ed. Dh graduated college in the early 90s and his floor was co ed as were his bathrooms. So, it's been very odd for him to see how segregated many of the colleges we've looked at have been. 

 

Neither of mine are interested in same sex floors or dorms. They both want a truly co ed floor and their preference for bathrooms are either dorms with the pods or semi private, suite style rooms. 

 

I'm fine with them being an option but I don't think same sex segregation should be the only choice.

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Thank you all for the replies!  I think that I won't bring it up with dd, because I don't want to influence her impression/decision.  We'll learn more about it when we get to do a campus tour, eventually, and she can make up her own mind then.

 

 

I imagine the all male dorms are a logistics thing. There simply aren’t enough women to be able to make all forms co-ed. At some point, you run out of women.

 

 

Yes, that makes perfect sense.  I am surprised that there isn't at least one all-female option, but maybe there just wasn't enough demand for it.

 

 

 

I'm fine with them being an option but I don't think same sex segregation should be the only choice.

 

 

Agreed!  The big state school that's her second choice has both segregated and mixed dorm options, and that would seem ideal to me.  But perhaps not all schools are big enough to offer all three options.

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That doesn't really answer my question. When girls and women on a psych ward DO have to sleep in shared quarters should those quarters be unisex or not ? Or should we continue to segregate by sex for women's safety and comfort?

My experience is that the sleeping are and bathrooms are always same sex. This ward had two to a room, unless someone was dangerous or disruptive and then it was a single.

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I'd like to throw in another question if I may.  How do you all feel about single-sex college dorms?  

 

My daughter's first-choice school is a science and engineering school where male students outnumber female ones by something like a 4 to 1 ratio.  And they have two all male dormitories, and the rest are mixed.  No all female dorms.  That seems a little odd to me (why the need for male-only dorms at a school that's already so male dominated? that would seem to make it that much more important to have at least one female-only dorm!) but it is what it is.  I can't figure out from the website if the mixed-sex buildings are segregated by floor or by room only or what.

 

Her second-choice school is a much bigger state school, and it does have two female-only dorms as well as several mixed ones.

 

Times have changed.  When I was in college the only mixed-sex dorms available were for graduate students.  ALL of the undergraduate housing was segregated.  But I guess that doesn't matter now!

 

DD was already a little nervous about going to such a distinctly male-dominated school, so I'm not sure how she's going to take this news about housing.  (She is planning to finish up her Associate's degree here first, so she won't be attending there until 2019 or 2020, so we haven't even done a campus tour yet.  It's 800 miles away from us, so we haven't been able to work out a visit yet.)  Just curious what you think.  Would you want your daughter to have access to all-female housing?  

 

I lived in an all female residence.  Most of the others were all male.  This was a small LAC, so there were usually four male staircases which each housed about 28 men.  The women's residence was three floors and held about the same number altogether.  And if there was enough interest, there would also be one co-ed staircase. Almost always only students past their first year were admitted to the co-ed area.

 

In the women's residence there also was usually one floor or wing which didn't allow overnight male guests.

 

I'd actually prefer to see an arrangement like that which was separate as the basic arrangement and co-ed as an option, or even no co-ed. 

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This talk of gender segregation and bathrooms and college reminded me of something I'd blocked out.  I studied Physics at a big state U where the Physics building was one of the old ones.  Not dorms, the classrooms.  Men's bathrooms were on odd floors and women's on even.   So, a women on the first floor had to go up or down stairs to use the restroom.  That really irritated me.   I got my revenge later though since Physics labs are always in the basement (even floor), so when I started to work in one, it was the guys that had to take the stairs.  Bawahahahaha.  When they grumbled I pointed out that there wasn't a girl's on the first floor,  They 'hadn't noticed'.  

 

 

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In every medical hospital I have been in there are private rooms but co Ed floors. I think comparing a medical hospital to a psych ward or a prison forgets the fact that patients in medical hospitals are too sick to engage in any mischief. Unlike in a psych ward or a prison where people are physically healthy, usually.

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This talk of gender segregation and bathrooms and college reminded me of something I'd blocked out.  I studied Physics at a big state U where the Physics building was one of the old ones.  Not dorms, the classrooms.  Men's bathrooms were on odd floors and women's on even.   So, a women on the first floor had to go up or down stairs to use the restroom.  That really irritated me.   I got my revenge later though since Physics labs are always in the basement (even floor), so when I started to work in one, it was the guys that had to take the stairs.  Bawahahahaha.  When they grumbled I pointed out that there wasn't a girl's on the first floor,  They 'hadn't noticed'.  

 

This how the older buildings are on the TAMU campus.   It was an all-male school when they were built and retrofitted this way.  The restrooms are usually a tight fit too.

 

Edited by vonfirmath
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In every medical hospital I have been in there are private rooms but co Ed floors. I think comparing a medical hospital to a psych ward or a prison forgets the fact that patients in medical hospitals are too sick to engage in any mischief. Unlike in a psych ward or a prison where people are physically healthy, usually.

The psychiatric hospital my ds was in had the same set up as a regular hospital floor. The only difference was added security and staff. I'm not sure if that's standard everywhere but there were no issues during his week spent there.

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Sadie, no. You misunderstand me, or I did not explain thoroughly enough.

 

What I meant when I said let the transgender population tell us what they need for facilities such as prisons & hospitals, was more of "if we need to ADD facilities to keep transgendered people safe, because neither single-sex designation quite meets their needs, then we should ADD that for their safety, so that they, too, have a safe place in a prison, or a hospital, or a psych ward, or a wherever else that places currently are not safe for them."

 

I did not, do not, mean, and did not mean to imply, that single sex places thus also need to go away; what I was imagining was more....a male ward, a female ward, and then perhaps a divided ward that has a trans female and trans male section. I don't know what the transgender population needs in a place such as that, so I don't know and don't presume to know what a "trans ward" should look like. I don't know which areas are fine to keep common, which areas need to be segregated, in which parts/locations would segregation be of benefit to them.

 

But in no way, at all, did I mean to say that the needs of the trans population are somehow greater than the needs of cisgender males or females, and in no way did I mean that we need to completely eliminate single-sex rooms/facilities in hospitals, prisons, etc.

 

I don't know that I've ever been in an actual psych ward, so I have no idea how those are segregated currently. When my mom was in, we were too young to visit. When my MIL was in, we were only able to visit her in a common area (like a lobby), and weren't allowed on the floor so I have no idea if the rooms were divided. I would imagine something akin to a single-sex dorm situation, but I have no idea, having not been there myself as of yet.

 

Absolutely prisons, hospitals (psych wards or otherwise), etc, have an obligation to protect and keep safe *everyone* who is there. Period. I did not, do not, mean to imply that the need for safety & security of a cisgender female is in any way less than the need for safety of a transgender person, &/or should be compromised in any way to meet the needs of other residents. There MUST be a way to maintain the safety and security of everyone in that setting, I just don't know what that looks like, at all, which is all I was trying to convey.

 

Perhaps better wording would have been something like "hospital & prison staff should consider the needs of the transgender population alongside the needs of cisgender men and women so that safe, secure facilities can be designed/redesigned to meet the unique needs of each group."

 

I only meant, that I, as a cisgender woman, can only speak to what makes me feel safe. And maybe even add, as a cisgender woman who's never been to prison or (as of yet) spent time in a psych ward as more than a visitor (and other than labor & delivery, I really don't remember my hospital visits being to segregated floors/wards at all, other than single-sex rooms, but certainly not whole single-sex floors.....).

 

What I clumsily tried to say was "let those who have the need be the one to tell us what the need is, and then listen to them, and then do that." I just messed up my wording. I hope you can understand what I truly meant, and know I absolutely care about the safety of your daughter. I'm sorry I sounded like I didn't.

So, what if the trans community is telling us that they need self identification laws - you are whatever you say you are, regardless of physical presentation - because requiring medical transition is discriminatory?

 

What if the trans community is telling us that they need access to the spaces that they self-id into. Women's shelters, prisons, sports teams, private pools, women's positions in politics etc?

 

What do we do then? Maybe, we could have a reasonable conversation that also respects the lived experience of women and our sex based rights, hard fought for and protected by law.

That conversation is not allowed to happen at the moment. Women are being silenced and no-platformed and attacked.

 

You'd be called names for suggesting a trans-ward. That's 'separate but equal' all over again apparently...

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So, what if the trans community is telling us that they need self identification laws - you are whatever you say you are, regardless of physical presentation - because requiring medical transition is discriminatory?

 

What if the trans community is telling us that they need access to the spaces that they self-id into. Women's shelters, prisons, sports teams, private pools, women's positions in politics etc?

 

What do we do then? Maybe, we could have a reasonable conversation that also respects the lived experience of women and our sex based rights, hard fought for and protected by law.

That conversation is not allowed to happen at the moment. Women are being silenced and no-platformed and attacked.

 

You'd be called names for suggesting a trans-ward. That's 'separate but equal' all over again apparently...

 

I don't think you would be slammed for asking the trans community what their preference would be in terms of prisons and hospitals. 

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I don't think you would be slammed for asking the trans community what their preference would be in terms of prisons and hospitals.

Sure, why would you be slammed for asking? You'll be slammed for disagreeing.

 

We already know what some trans activists want, they're already fighting for it and getting it. Like this UK case.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4400327/transgender-rapist-womens-prison/

Edited by LMD
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I'd like to throw in another question if I may.  How do you all feel about single-sex college dorms?  

 

My daughter's first-choice school is a science and engineering school where male students outnumber female ones by something like a 4 to 1 ratio.  And they have two all male dormitories, and the rest are mixed.  No all female dorms.  That seems a little odd to me (why the need for male-only dorms at a school that's already so male dominated? that would seem to make it that much more important to have at least one female-only dorm!) but it is what it is.  I can't figure out from the website if the mixed-sex buildings are segregated by floor or by room only or what.

 

Her second-choice school is a much bigger state school, and it does have two female-only dorms as well as several mixed ones.

 

Times have changed.  When I was in college the only mixed-sex dorms available were for graduate students.  ALL of the undergraduate housing was segregated.  But I guess that doesn't matter now!

 

DD was already a little nervous about going to such a distinctly male-dominated school, so I'm not sure how she's going to take this news about housing.  (She is planning to finish up her Associate's degree here first, so she won't be attending there until 2019 or 2020, so we haven't even done a campus tour yet.  It's 800 miles away from us, so we haven't been able to work out a visit yet.)  Just curious what you think.  Would you want your daughter to have access to all-female housing?

Yes, I would want her to have that choice. But you knew that I'd say that :)

 

I also think it's odd to have two dorms just for blokes, and none for women...

 

I hope your dd feels comfortable and happy however it all ends up.

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I think because there are so many ways to look at this.  Is it separate out of respect, is it separate out of a sense of "other" (one group being the wrong kind of other), and are they simply separate but equal, or are they separate but not equal?

 

A lame example....  In school we were often segregated in gym class (which by the way at that point in time was not in line with the rules, we were not supposed to be segregated).  The boys played real sports and we'd do crap like "power walking".  This is not separate with equal quality in my mind.  There are many examples where separation does not mean separate, but equal.

It kind of boils down to choice, really, doesn't it ?

 

I mean, I am pretty sure I'd be kicking and screaming if I had no choice but to be in single sex spaces, island dreams aside.

 

By the same token, I'll be kicking and screaming if my choice to use same sex provisions gets taken away from me.

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Yes, choice is an important part of our bodily integrity/autonomy to be able to move through the world and participate safely. For trans folk too. (I'm not talking about abortion here at all)

 

But, sex based provisions are laws. They are required to be provided for good reasons. Overriding those laws needs to have consultation and darn good reasons.

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The psychiatric hospital my ds was in had the same set up as a regular hospital floor. The only difference was added security and staff. I'm not sure if that's standard everywhere but there were no issues during his week spent there.

For residential/inpatient programs that’s not as common - especially for youth. They’re usually separate buildings or at least floors, and not like the triage/short term hold treatment centers. Now if you’re an active risk to yourself or others it’s a different level of supervision/nursing, but the inpatient programs reminded me more of dorms or boarding schools ban anything else; right down to classroom time.

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I’m going to respond about the all-female dorm.

 

I lived in an all-female dorm 15 years ago. It closed a year after I moved out.

 

The reason was a lack of demand. There was truly a lack of demand. Most of the women living there weren’t living there by preference but because other housing options were already full.

 

Yes there were some of us that had a preference and made a choice for the all-female dorm.

 

It was a mix of religious preferences (including Muslims and Christians), first-generation-immigrant parents wanting it for their daughters, and serious students not looking for a party atmosphere.

 

But overall there just wasn’t a demand for it, few people living there wanted to be living there.

 

My *guess* is maybe it’s cheaper not to covert a male dorm to be co-ed.

 

Or, with the numbers, the women would be really, really sparse if spread through all the dorms.

 

I think it might just be more practical if you look at the demand for an all-female dorm (which could be really small) or the choice of making all the dorms co-ed and what that would look like practically.

 

Where I lived they only had male restrooms on the ground floor so make guests had to go to the first floor to use a restroom, and there wasn’t a space to add a second bathroom without taking one away.

 

I don’t think it’s fair to have two bathrooms with the same number of showers, but a large number of one sex using one set of showers, and a very small number of the other sex using the other set of showers.

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Make a small dorm ?

 

These are universities; figuring this stuff out isn't beyond them.

 

When you make everything mixed sex, you prevent some girls and women from accessing the university. That's not OK.

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So, what if the trans community is telling us that they need self identification laws - you are whatever you say you are, regardless of physical presentation - because requiring medical transition is discriminatory?

 

What if the trans community is telling us that they need access to the spaces that they self-id into. Women's shelters, prisons, sports teams, private pools, women's positions in politics etc?

 

What do we do then? Maybe, we could have a reasonable conversation that also respects the lived experience of women and our sex based rights, hard fought for and protected by law.

That conversation is not allowed to happen at the moment. Women are being silenced and no-platformed and attacked.

 

You'd be called names for suggesting a trans-ward. That's 'separate but equal' all over again apparently...

 

 

I don't think you would be slammed for asking the trans community what their preference would be in terms of prisons and hospitals. 

 

I feel like I"m not explaining myself well, and I don't have the time or brain power to argue. 

 

What I mean is exactly the bolded. I'm just not communicating it well, apparently, and have already tried clarifying once, so will just leave it here, as it is. 

 

What else I meant was that I, as a cisgender woman, can't presume to know what needs a trans woman has. But I also meant, and mean, that the needs of all customers, clients, etc. should be considered and worked out. Maybe that is idealistic, naive, etc., but that's what I would like to see.

 

Just as everyone seems very annoyed with me for trying to elevate the needs of the transgender population over the needs of cisgender women (which is not my intent), I also don't want to elevate the needs of cisgendered women (like myself) above the needs of the trans population. 

 

Both needs. Both sides of the issue (all sides). Together. In a reasonable conversation, which, seems hard enough here let alone out in the "real world" where it matters. 

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I feel like I"m not explaining myself well, and I don't have the time or brain power to argue. 

 

What I mean is exactly the bolded. I'm just not communicating it well, apparently, and have already tried clarifying once, so will just leave it here, as it is. 

 

What else I meant was that I, as a cisgender woman, can't presume to know what needs a trans woman has. But I also meant, and mean, that the needs of all customers, clients, etc. should be considered and worked out. Maybe that is idealistic, naive, etc., but that's what I would like to see.

 

Just as everyone seems very annoyed with me for trying to elevate the needs of the transgender population over the needs of cisgender women (which is not my intent), I also don't want to elevate the needs of cisgendered women (like myself) above the needs of the trans population. 

 

Both needs. Both sides of the issue (all sides). Together. In a reasonable conversation, which, seems hard enough here let alone out in the "real world" where it matters. 

 

Hi there.  My name is Poppy. I too have attempted to talk to several of these posters about not treating trans people as mental ill, dangerous invaders of women's space and the enemy of womenkind.  It didn't get anywhere, for me at least.   I witness you. and wish you luck.

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I feel like I"m not explaining myself well, and I don't have the time or brain power to argue.

 

What I mean is exactly the bolded. I'm just not communicating it well, apparently, and have already tried clarifying once, so will just leave it here, as it is.

 

What else I meant was that I, as a cisgender woman, can't presume to know what needs a trans woman has. But I also meant, and mean, that the needs of all customers, clients, etc. should be considered and worked out. Maybe that is idealistic, naive, etc., but that's what I would like to see.

 

Just as everyone seems very annoyed with me for trying to elevate the needs of the transgender population over the needs of cisgender women (which is not my intent), I also don't want to elevate the needs of cisgendered women (like myself) above the needs of the trans population.

 

Both needs. Both sides of the issue (all sides). Together. In a reasonable conversation, which, seems hard enough here let alone out in the "real world" where it matters.

I agree with you.

I'm just saying that women who try to have these conversations elsewhere are attacked. So while I appreciate the sentiment, I question how much trans activism you've seen - because your posts here would have you labelled and grouped with the mean women whether you like it or not.

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Hi poppy, can you not misrepresent what I've repeatedly said?

Where on this thread has anyone "treating trans people as mental ill, dangerous invaders of women's space and the enemy of womenkind"?

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I feel like I"m not explaining myself well, and I don't have the time or brain power to argue. 

 

What I mean is exactly the bolded. I'm just not communicating it well, apparently, and have already tried clarifying once, so will just leave it here, as it is. 

 

What else I meant was that I, as a cisgender woman, can't presume to know what needs a trans woman has. But I also meant, and mean, that the needs of all customers, clients, etc. should be considered and worked out. Maybe that is idealistic, naive, etc., but that's what I would like to see.

 

Just as everyone seems very annoyed with me for trying to elevate the needs of the transgender population over the needs of cisgender women (which is not my intent), I also don't want to elevate the needs of cisgendered women (like myself) above the needs of the trans population. 

 

Both needs. Both sides of the issue (all sides). Together. In a reasonable conversation, which, seems hard enough here let alone out in the "real world" where it matters.

I'm not cisgender. Obviously, other women can refer to themselves how they wish; it's not my modifier. Ta.

 

I think it's totally possible to have a reasonable conversation here. Have more options. Give people the choice between mixed sex or single sex provisions. Have gender neutral spaces availabe also, especially for pre-op transwomen who feel unsafe in men's single sex spaces, or for transmen who don't feel comfortable yet in men's spaces but are also not wanting to use women's spaces. (it's almost like there's a common problem here, hmm, what could it be?)

 

That's not unreasonable. Not here.

 

It's called 'literal violence' in the outside world though. Women can and have been suspended from major political parties for suggesting third spaces, because women and transpeople have different needs.

 

It's ceetainly complicated out there, in a way it isn't here.

 

I appreciated your clarification, btw.

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I don't think the problems are due to discussing having a third space. The problems arise when some say those who are transgender must choose that third space. That's not something I agree with. 

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Hi poppy, can you not misrepresent what I've repeatedly said?

Where on this thread has anyone "treating trans people as mental ill, dangerous invaders of women's space and the enemy of womenkind"?

 

"Women are being silenced and no-platformed and attacked" by the trans community is where I got the "enemy of women" comment. 

 

Honestly, I don't want to do this dance again, I just wanted to warn the poster that this is an ongoing dialogue and a bit more fraught than the innocent thread title might suggest. 

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So, anyone who is in favor of abolishing - or letting languish same sex provisions - want to address the psych ward issue ?

 

Is everyone good with their daughter or wife or sister or best friend sleeping and showering in wards no longer segregated by sex ?

 

The psych ward that I know anything about in my town is for ages 5-18. The adult psych ward is in the same hospital. They are mixed BUT they have separate rooms. They aren't allowed to go into each other's rooms and they sleep with the doors open and with someone patrolling the halls. I assume the adult ward has similar rules, but am not sure. Showers were in each room. There was a strict no touching rule. Not even fist bumps or high fives.

 

Do you think my dd should have be on a mixed sex ward - open, 8 beds to the room - when she was in a psych ward ? Is that something you think, in your heart of hearts, is perfectly fine? You really believe there is no issue putting vulnerable girls in a mixed sex ward for sleeping and showering ?

 

I find this unacceptable. Do they have people stationed in the room at all times watching? At all times?

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Hi there.  My name is Poppy. I too have attempted to talk to several of these posters about not treating trans people as mental ill, dangerous invaders of women's space and the enemy of womenkind.  It didn't get anywhere, for me at least.   I witness you. and wish you luck.

 

Ok, but if women have been in the past (and now), in need of safe spaces for only themselves because of potential danger from men.... and if transwomen retain male patterns of criminality and violence... then yeah, maybe women DO need to be protected from transwomen, in any situation where they need to be protected from men.

 

And yes, I'm conscious that transwomen ALSO need protection from men and that's also important. But does it need to be at the expense of women?

Edited by Mimm
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