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StellaM

Single sex spaces and segregation - what do you think ? Needed or not ?

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Oh, they were allowed to close their doors. They're just big, heavy doors that are really noisy to open. If you wanted to be able to sleep more than an hour at a time, you had to leave them wedged open so they didn't wake you.

 

I think we're lucky the low risk psych facilities exist at all.

Not sure I'd call it luck, but yes. They are much needed.

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Now that you mention it, it does seem rather nuts.  Oddly I never thought about it before.  I wonder if my mother ever had issues (I can't ask her).

 

 

 

 

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TMI for sure, but my parents met on a psych ward.  That was in the late 60s, and it was mixed then.

It's less uncommon (the meeting) than you'd think.

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I agree Tibbie.

 

And honestly, is there some sort of epidemic of transwomen predators in restrooms? I haven't heard of such a thing.

Well, I did link a study about the rise in voyeurism above...

 

See the problem is that women can't tell the difference between an early-in-transition trans woman and an opportunistic male predator in a dress. Until it's too late. Even then, if they're not doing anything technically illegal then it's up to women and girls to suck it up. That is what self identification laws do.

 

Trans women have been shown to retain male pattern criminality even after transition.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

 

You can Google the public facebook group This Never Happens. Spoiler alert- sometimes it does. Or the YouTube video Women: Decide for Yourselves.

 

None of that means that trans women are inherently dangerous or I hate them or anything, just, women's sex protected rights shouldn't be railroaded without discussion of all the facts. Using emotional tactics is just marketing, not discussion.

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It's less uncommon (the meeting) than you'd think.

 

I don't doubt that. 

 

My mother used to get so upset when I told people about how they met.  LOL

 

Oh well....

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Well, I did link a study about the rise in voyeurism above...

 

See the problem is that women can't tell the difference between an early-in-transition trans woman and an opportunistic male predator in a dress. Until it's too late. Even then, if they're not doing anything technically illegal then it's up to women and girls to suck it up. That is what self identification laws do.

 

Trans women have been shown to retain male pattern criminality even after transition.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

 

You can Google the public facebook group This Never Happens. Spoiler alert- sometimes it does. Or the YouTube video Women: Decide for Yourselves.

 

None of that means that trans women are inherently dangerous or I hate them or anything, just, women's sex protected rights shouldn't be railroaded without discussion of all the facts. Using emotional tactics is just marketing, not discussion.

 

Well, this is a very challenging situation to say the least.  But I honestly think that if someone is hell bent on doing something nasty to people, they'll find a way.  I can't say that I live in fear of it.  One thing that I did worry about was sending my very young boys into the restroom alone.  I used to wait outside the door and holler in periodically.  I'm sure I seemed nuts.  Although no man ever seemed to be bothered by it.  I'm not even 100% sure if my fear was warranted, but that's a mom thing anyway.  To worry about our kids. 

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I don't doubt that. 

 

My mother used to get so upset when I told people about how they met.  LOL

 

Oh well....

Mine met there too. I don't tell anyone. Except, you know, the whole internet now.

 

Dh and I met in the grounds of a decommisioned psych hospital, which is a bit weird.

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Mine met there too. I don't tell anyone. Except, you know, the whole internet now.

 

Dh and I met in the grounds of a decommisioned psych hospital, which is a bit weird.

 

 

 

I understand why it upset my mother, but she used to be mad if I talked about their illnesses at all ever.  I never thought that was fair. 

 

It's easier to tell the whole internet stuff.  :laugh:

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Well, I did link a study about the rise in voyeurism above...

 

Except that study was based on a small sample and only on media reports.  Considering the "bathroom controversy" was major news, I would expect reports of (alleged) incidents to be more present in the media afterwards. 

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Well, this is a very challenging situation to say the least. But I honestly think that if someone is hell bent on doing something nasty to people, they'll find a way. I can't say that I live in fear of it. One thing that I did worry about was sending my very young boys into the restroom alone. I used to wait outside the door and holler in periodically. I'm sure I seemed nuts. Although no man ever seemed to be bothered by it. I'm not even 100% sure if my fear was warranted, but that's a mom thing anyway. To worry about our kids.

Of course. The point of having the boundary isn't that it's a magic shield, but that someone crossing it is a warning signal.

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Except that study was based on a small sample and only on media reports. Considering the "bathroom controversy" was major news, I would expect reports of (alleged) incidents to be more present in the media afterwards.

It ain't perfect no. Do you have more reliable data?

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Except that study was based on a small sample and only on media reports.  Considering the "bathroom controversy" was major news, I would expect reports of (alleged) incidents to be more present in the media afterwards.

The entire area is plagued by small sample sizes and crap science. It's not as if there is robust evidence of lack of harm over an extended time period.

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I have seen these in (still gender segregated) park restrooms and rest areas and the like. Since I generally lift the seat and hover-squat to pee in public restrooms, I can't say I care personally. My kids have never had problem using such toilets, either.

 

 

I have dealt with all kinds of horrible restrooms where I did have to hover-squat (either because the restroom was filthy or because there was no toilet just a hole in the floor like I found in some places in Europe).  As a disabled person, I find making unusable toilets for a much more significant portion of the population (lots of disabled, people with back issues, leg issues, little children, older women, etc etc)  is an unbelievably tone-deaf answer to what to do about Trans people's bathroom situations.  Totally nuts.  If they have a problem peeing correctly, follow Schipol airport's solution  and draw flies on the area you want men to pee.  Took care of the problem in that airport and lead to the winning of the Nobel prize in Economics in 2017 (economist saw their solution and came up with theory of passive inducement of wanted behavior as part of economics- ie you get automatically added into company 401K program and you have to take more steps to get out of funding your retirement than it takes to fund your retirement.

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Honestly, what I think I'd really like at this stage of my life is a woman run island, with all provisions for women only, by women only, with regular weekend trips to the mainland to meet up with the blokes I love. Sounds like heaven.

Edited by StellaM
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Well, I did link a study about the rise in voyeurism above...

 

See the problem is that women can't tell the difference between an early-in-transition trans woman and an opportunistic male predator in a dress. Until it's too late. Even then, if they're not doing anything technically illegal then it's up to women and girls to suck it up. That is what self identification laws do.

 

Trans women have been shown to retain male pattern criminality even after transition.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

 

You can Google the public facebook group This Never Happens. Spoiler alert- sometimes it does. Or the YouTube video Women: Decide for Yourselves.

 

None of that means that trans women are inherently dangerous or I hate them or anything, just, women's sex protected rights shouldn't be railroaded without discussion of all the facts. Using emotional tactics is just marketing, not discussion.

 

Did you read the study?

Crime rate

Transsexual individuals were at increased risk of being convicted for any crime or violent crime after sex reassignment (Table 2); this was, however, only significant in the group who underwent sex reassignment before 1989.

 

It should also be noted that there has been a bias against trans individuals in the criminal justice system, so I am not sure if an increase means much when looking at the big picture.

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The entire area is plagued by small sample sizes and crap science. It's not as if there is robust evidence of lack of harm over an extended time period.

 

You don't prove lack of harm.

 

I can't even call what that study attempted "crap science".  Media reports? Really? Come on.

Edited by ChocolateReign
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Did you read the study?

Crime rate

Transsexual individuals were at increased risk of being convicted for any crime or violent crime after sex reassignment (Table 2); this was, however, only significant in the group who underwent sex reassignment before 1989.

 

It should also be noted that there has been a bias against trans individuals in the criminal justice system, so I am not sure if an increase means much when looking at the big picture.

Yes, so that's a limitation. If you've got better sources that have fewer limitations, feel free to post them.

 

I am yet to see a single study in this area that is robust.

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Honestly, what I think I'd really like at this stage of my life is a woman run island, with all provisions for women only, by women only, with regular weekend trips to the mainland to meet up with the blokes I love. Sounds like heaven.

 

Haha...yeah really.

 

Although my life is rather weird.  I grew up surrounded by women and hardly any men.  Now I'm completely surrounded by males  No females in sight other than Kitty and Zoey (the bunny).  That doesn't count.  And I have to say that it's not that big of a deal.  I don't notice much of a difference.

 

But then people we know verse strangers....

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Yes, so that's a limitation. If you've got better sources that have fewer limitations, feel free to post them.

 

I am yet to see a single study in this area that is robust.

 

I was pointing out that the study was limited, just that it really didn't show what the poster seems to think it did. 

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You don't prove lack of harm.

 

I can't even call what that study attempted "crap science".  Media reports? Really? Come on.

It's no better from the other side, let me tell you. You can snort all you like, but it's not as if there's a weight of good science over there. There's a whole stack of hypotheses, unproven and often unreplicated. There's a whole lot of supression of academic inquiry. And that's about it. Trust me, I've been looking for a while now.

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Haha...yeah really.

 

Although my life is rather weird.  I grew up surrounded by women and hardly any men.  Now I'm completely surrounded by males  No females in sight other than Kitty and Zoey (the bunny).  That doesn't count.  And I have to say that it's not that big of a deal.  I don't notice much of a difference.

 

But then people we know verse strangers....

You know what I get sick of ? Walking down the street and men doing the chest flick to my boobs. Yes, I have big boobs :) No, you don't need to look at them. It's young men, it's old men.

 

I am a bit tired of blokes, and their apologists. I am very tired that they want in to the few spaces we have that are single sex.

Edited by StellaM
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Did you read the study? Crime rate

Transsexual individuals were at increased risk of being convicted for any crime or violent crime after sex reassignment (Table 2); this was, however, only significant in the group who underwent sex reassignment before 1989.

 

It should also be noted that there has been a bias against trans individuals in the criminal justice system, so I am not sure if an increase means much when looking at the big picture.

Keep reading:

 

"Second, regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime. By contrast, female-to-males had higher crime rates than female controls (aHR 4.1; 95% CI 2.5–6.9) but did not differ from male controls. This indicates a shift to a male pattern regarding criminality and that sex reassignment is coupled to increased crime rate in female-to-males. The same was true regarding violent crime."

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You know what I get sick of ? Walking down the street and men doing the chest flick to my boobs. Yes, I have big boobs :) No, you don't need to look at them. It's young men, it's old men.

 

I am a bit tired of blokes, and their apologists. I am very tired that they want in to the few spaces we have that are single sex.

 

Well yeah that's pretty crappy.  Nobody does that to me.  I don't have boobs though so....

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Keep reading:

 

"Second, regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime. By contrast, female-to-males had higher crime rates than female controls (aHR 4.1; 95% CI 2.5–6.9) but did not differ from male controls. This indicates a shift to a male pattern regarding criminality and that sex reassignment is coupled to increased crime rate in female-to-males. The same was true regarding violent crime."

 

Well of course they retained a male pattern.  They are men.  (the second being explained by testosterone I'd assume)

 

(don't get me started)

 

LOL

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Keep reading:

 

"Second, regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime. By contrast, female-to-males had higher crime rates than female controls (aHR 4.1; 95% CI 2.5–6.9) but did not differ from male controls. This indicates a shift to a male pattern regarding criminality and that sex reassignment is coupled to increased crime rate in female-to-males. The same was true regarding violent crime."

 

Considering both groups see their crime rates increase, this seems to indicate the possible influence of the bias in the criminal justice system more than anything else.

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Gosh, I think I'd go nuts living on an island with a bunch of women all the time.

 

Yeah I'd personally rather live on an island with no people.  Maybe just a bunch of cats and unicorns.

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It's no better from the other side, let me tell you. You can snort all you like, but it's not as if there's a weight of good science over there. There's a whole stack of hypotheses, unproven and often unreplicated. There's a whole lot of supression of academic inquiry. And that's about it. Trust me, I've been looking for a while now.

 

ok

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Honestly, what I think I'd really like at this stage of my life is a woman run island, with all provisions for women only, by women only, with regular weekend trips to the mainland to meet up with the blokes I love. Sounds like heaven.

 

I'm reasonably certain I read that book, and even when written by a feminist with what I would call an optimistic notion of how well women could run a society on their own, it came across as rather dystopian (a Yin dystopia rather than a Yang one, though, which is a rare thing for a book).

 

But I was 10-11 when I read it, so my memory of it is impressionistic.  

 

(Gate to Women's Country, of course)

 

 

I mean, I like sex segregation as much as you do, I do - but I also like my washing machine and my modern medicine and my electricity and my trash collection and my protection from other men.

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I've never been in a hospital that was segregated by sex. I mean, when I delivered my babies and was on the maternity ward the patients were all women. But, most of the men, like my own dh, were there 24/7. They weren't kicked out and there were even reclining chairs and/or couches in the room for them to sleep on. When I've been in the hospital for other things or visited someone there was never an entire ward that was sex segregated. It was usually just by rooms.

 

When ds spent a week in a teen psychiatric hospital it was coed as well. The individual rooms were sex segregated but the room next to his could have been anyone. There weren't any issues I am aware of. I know they activated sensors at night and an alarm would sound if anyone crossed a doorway and they had a lot of nurses, staff, and security at all times. 

Edited by Joker

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Gosh, I think I'd go nuts living on an island with a bunch of women all the time.

 

+1

 

The women most predisposed to wanting to be around only women are the ones I generally can't stand IRL.

 

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I'm reasonably certain I read that book, and even when written by a feminist with what I would call an optimistic notion of how well women could run a society on their own, it came across as rather dystopian (a Yin dystopia rather than a Yang one, though, which is a rare thing for a book).

 

But I was 10-11 when I read it, so my memory of it is impressionistic.  

 

(Gate to Women's Country, of course)

 

 

I mean, I like sex segregation as much as you do, I do - but I also like my washing machine and my modern medicine and my electricity and my trash collection and my protection from other men.

 

Oh, I read that in middle school.  It was a pretty good book if my 14-year old impression is accurate.  It was a dystopia for sure.

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Gosh, I think I'd go nuts living on an island with a bunch of women all the time.

There's weekend leave.

 

Shall I not issue you with an invite ? :)

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+1

 

The women most predisposed to wanting to be around only women are the ones I generally can't stand IRL.

You're not a fan of lesbians then ?

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I've never been in a hospital that was segregated by sex. I mean, when I delivered my babies and was on the maternity ward the patients were all women. But, most of the men, like my own dh, were there 24/7. They weren't kicked out and there were even reclining chairs and/or couches in the room for them to sleep on. When I've been in the hospital for other things or visited someone there was never an entire ward that was sex segregated. It was usually just by rooms.

 

When ds spent a week in a teen psychiatric hospital it was coed as well. The individual rooms were sex segregated but the room next to his could have been anyone. There weren't any issues I am aware of. I know they activated sensors at night and an alarm would sound if anyone crossed a doorway and they had a lot of nurses, staff, and security at all times.

 

 

Do you think my dd should have be on a mixed sex ward - open, 8 beds to the room - when she was in a psych ward ? Is that something you think, in your heart of hearts, is perfectly fine? You really believe there is no issue putting vulnerable girls in a mixed sex ward for sleeping and showering ?

Edited by StellaM
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Considering both groups see their crime rates increase, this seems to indicate the possible influence of the bias in the criminal justice system more than anything else.

Maybe. What are the comparative conviction rates of trans folk? What are they in Sweden (where this study was done)? It was based on conviction records. You could wonder if there were also any incidents that didn't result in conviction?

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There's weekend leave.

 

Shall I not issue you with an invite ? :)

 

Oh, I'd come for a visit, since it's you guys!

 

I really like men though, I generally find them a lot easier to talk to than women.  I think that's why I've usually tended to prefer male-dominated workplaces. 

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There's weekend leave.

 

Shall I not issue you with an invite ? :)

 

Hmm, double-post.

Edited by Bluegoat

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Oh, I'd come for a visit, since it's you guys!

 

I really like men though, I generally find them a lot easier to talk to than women.  I think that's why I've usually tended to prefer male-dominated workplaces.

I like some men too. Though I don't want to shower with them, or toilet with them, or...

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Do you think my dd should have be on a mixed sex ward - open, 8 beds to the room - when she was in a psych ward ? Is that something you think, in your heart of hearts, is perfectly fine? You really believe there is no issue putting vulnerable girls in a mixed sex ward for sleeping and showering ?

 

I never said that situation would be fine. I have no idea what the setup is like where you are. 

 

I stated I've never seen or heard of hospital floors/wards being sex segregated. I just don't think it's a thing here. I've never seen a room like what you describe. When I had ds, I was put into a room with three other beds. The patients were all women but, again, most of the husbands/significant others were there the whole time as well - including sleeping and while we showered. 

 

Ds' experience at a psych hospital was obviously very different from your dd's as they were all two to a room. So, ds roomed with a female (this was prior to him coming out to us as being transgender). The room next to him had two males. There wasn't just a large open room of beds. There were no main doors on any of the rooms but all the rooms had a private bathroom with a door. Again, where ds was there was a lot of staff and security as well. 

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I like some men too. Though I don't want to shower with them, or toilet with them, or...

Truth be told, I don’t even like sharing a bathroom with my own husband. :lol:

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Do you think my dd should have be on a mixed sex ward - open, 8 beds to the room - when she was in a psych ward ? Is that something you think, in your heart of hearts, is perfectly fine? You really believe there is no issue putting vulnerable girls in a mixed sex ward for sleeping and showering ?

In my experience, hospitals in the US are usually private or semi-private rooms, and bathrooms are off the room and used only by the patients in that room. I don’t have experience with psych wards, but it generally isn’t a problem to have a room of women next to a room of men. I imagine a trans individual would probably have a private room.

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So, anyone who is in favor of abolishing - or letting languish same sex provisions - want to address the psych ward issue ?

 

Is everyone good with their daughter or wife or sister or best friend sleeping and showering in wards no longer segregated by sex ?

I’m tooth and nail against that except for the common areas like game rooms, lounges, and the cafeteria. Nope.

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I have been on psych wards.  All of them were mixed gender.  Rooms were either private or two people of same sex.  Trans people were all in private rooms.  Bathrooms were attached to bedrooms.  Public spaces were mixed gender.  Nobody was allowed to go in somebody else's room.  

 

I have no worries about transgender women in women's bathrooms with private stalls.  The people who I see as most vulnerable are actually trans men trying to use men's restrooms.  

 

I am a big fan of more gender neutral/ family restrooms and changing rooms in various places.  I don't mind there being men's and women's rooms as well, but there definitely need to be spaces where gender is not defined for those with special needs:  parents with children, people with special needs with a companion of differing gender, trans folks.  

 

I don't know what the answer is with prisons.  I think in general, it probably is to put people in the prison that they identify with.  Trans women should almost certainly be in women's prisons.  Trans men.....I don't know.  I would ask them.  

 

I don't like most single gender activities in churches, but I don't hate that they exist.  I DO like the idea of their being both single gender and co-ed schools.  I think boys and girls can both benefit from single sex schools, but I don't think that should be the only option.  

 

As a rape survivor (wow, I've never said that publicly before), I worry about my safety in all sorts of places, but bizarrely, I have often preferred male doctors over female ones.  Not always, but I often have.  Oddly, I guess.  Psychiatrists especially.  It probably has more to do with personality, but there are mother issues at play, too.  I appreciate choices.  

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I realize I'm starting to sound very contrary, but I don't want to walk out to the hallway with dirty hands and wash in public. I don't want a post toileting public washing space.

 

And the more I think about it, the more I remember instances of some woman, sometimes myself, kind of becoming a bit of a spectacle in the ladies' room while assisting a small child or an elderly relative. It's not all super contained; there might be a stall door open, or back and forth to the sink, or one woman in charge of more than one person who needs her help...it's fine to play this all out in the ladies room. It's a little less fine to go between small private stall and the public sinks in the hallway.

 

I still don't understand, and probably never will, why we can't just do the following:

 

1. Stop worrying about transgender women in the ladies room. Until a bunch of people of odd religious and political persuasion invented this phobia, a lot of us did pretty well at just minding our own business. It's not true that we never had questions. It is true that I, at least, never ran screaming and never demanded legislation; I really did think it was up to individuals to know where they needed and wanted to use the bathroom...

2. Convert or build at least two family restrooms, everywhere people need a restroom, from sea to shining sea.

3. Keep the separate locker rooms and bathrooms that work for the vast majority of people. For those who can use them, you are keeping us out of the family restrooms that are legitimate needs for others.

4. And bring the paper towels back.

5. And maybe we need a bathroom monitor who is paid, I don't care if it's the Ritz Carlton or the gas station.

 

Thank you. That is all.

. People who advocate such things have probably never asssisted a handicapped person in the restroom. And holy moly am I the only one with messy problems related to that time of the month? I don’t want to drag that mess all out in a visible area.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited by fairfarmhand

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Oh, the 'good' lesbians, lol

 

That's a weird response.

 

I don't have much in common with women (lesbian or otherwise) who would want to live on an island of just women.

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That's a weird response.

 

I don't have much in common with women (lesbian or otherwise) who would want to live on an island of just women.

Oh for goodness sake, it was a throwaway because I'm sick of dealing with entitled male b/s, the move to desegregate single sex provisions for women being but one manifestation.

 

But even if it wasn't a throwaway ? Wanting to have single sex spaces is not some deeply weird thing, and it's kinda misogynistic to suggest it is.

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