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StellaM

Single sex spaces and segregation - what do you think ? Needed or not ?

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Oh, yes, forgot to address this part of it. 

 

our church segregates a LOT of things by gender, and it annoys me to no end. We have mixed-gender Bible Study in the Sunday School hour, but that's it. During the week, there's women's Bible Study (at least offered both day and night, so working women can attend....), men's Bible study (with more times offered for them than for the women), and Youth Group, but Youth Group is split into age/gender small groups, so junior high boys, junior high girls, high school boys, and high school girls. Only once a month on "small group night" do they co-mingle and have fun activities vs. just Bible study.  Their Sunday School class is segregated, too, boys & girls. (I think; we rarely attend Sunday School, so I could be wrong on that one...). 

 

I find it absurd; they don't segregate the little kids, but when you hit junior high -- no longer allowed in the same study. None of the camps they go to, either, are mixed. Girl's retreat, guy's retreat, Disciple Now (joint sessions, but they stay in single-gender groupings for the sleeping). Their summer mission trip is mixed, but that's the only thing. So odd.

 

I'd like to see that go away, but at least ours does offer times for everyone, and the fun stuff is not only crafts. We had a ladies self defense class, and finally they had a ladies skeet shooting day, like the men have every year. (mostly our fun stuff is crafts, though....). 

 

To be honest, I do prefer the youth to be separate for at least some activities.  The dynamics are just so different depending on whether boys / girls are in attendance.  Also they are still learning about bodies and I would rather keep the experimenting to a minimum.  :P  Call me crazy but I have two 11yo girls so crazy feels about right these days.  :P

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To be honest, I do prefer the youth to be separate for at least some activities.  The dynamics are just so different depending on whether boys / girls are in attendance.  Also they are still learning about bodies and I would rather keep the experimenting to a minimum.  :p  Call me crazy but I have two 11yo girls so crazy feels about right these days.  :p

 

Some, I guess, but not all. With them segregated ALL Of the time, they never learn how to interact respectfully with the opposite gender. 

 

But then, I guess most are in school, outside classes, etc, so church is only one setting....but still. I feel like keeping them separate for ALL activities just adds a sense of mystery, curiosity, forbidden fruit, etc., and keeps them feeling awkward around each other.

 

My son had a female friend in youth group who was more or less afraid to hang out with him, because any cross-gender fraternization was viewed as romantic.  So, although she liked him (as a friend) and he liked her (as a friend), they avoided each other. Now that they're past youth group, it's awkward to figure out how to navigate, because in the back of their minds is that "will she/will he view this as romantic, when it's not?" 

 

If they had even some of their stuff mixed gender, I think it would help alleviate/avoid stuff like that. Like, an ice breaker/game, large group study, then break into small groups to discuss. But instead, they are segregated from the get-go, with only the once/month social night together (and even that is sometimes split into a girls' activity and a guys' activity). 

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Some, I guess, but not all. With them segregated ALL Of the time, they never learn how to interact respectfully with the opposite gender. 

 

But then, I guess most are in school, outside classes, etc, so church is only one setting....but still. I feel like keeping them separate for ALL activities just adds a sense of mystery, curiosity, forbidden fruit, etc., and keeps them feeling awkward around each other.

 

My son had a female friend in youth group who was more or less afraid to hang out with him, because any cross-gender fraternization was viewed as romantic.  So, although she liked him (as a friend) and he liked her (as a friend), they avoided each other. Now that they're past youth group, it's awkward to figure out how to navigate, because in the back of their minds is that "will she/will he view this as romantic, when it's not?" 

 

If they had even some of their stuff mixed gender, I think it would help alleviate/avoid stuff like that. Like, an ice breaker/game, large group study, then break into small groups to discuss. But instead, they are segregated from the get-go, with only the once/month social night together (and even that is sometimes split into a girls' activity and a guys' activity). 

 

In our church and school, kid stuff is co-ed with few exceptions.  Sunday school for all ages is co-ed.  Youth group is co-ed except for grades 7-8 (not totally sure about high school).  Youth retreats are co-ed (but obviously the sexes are separated for sleeping).  The school bowling league is co-ed; gym is co-ed; some sports teams are open to both sexes.  It feels about right to me.  I am not against them having both co-ed and single sex.  I agree that some co-ed is really essential.

 

Extracurriculars are going to depend on who is interested in what.  My kids' gymnastics and horse riding are almost all-girl.  TKD is mostly boys.  One of my daughters is a runner - she runs various 5Ks with all kinds of people, but also does "Girls On the Run" 5ks.  I think it's good to experience the different dynamics.

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I don't know that we really have any single-sex stuff at our church.  I can't recall any.  There are a few things where there is one group more heavily represented - there aren't many male SS teachers or hospitality volunteers, while the building committee is all male.  But those aren't mandated.

 

It might not actually be a bad thing to occasionally have some male or female groups, though I don't know how much that might appeal to me personally.  

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I worry more about my son in mens or boys bathrooms. I dislike sending my 12 year old in alone and have since he was too old for the womens. I appreciate family bathrooms for him. I can go in with my daughter to the womens bathrooms. I know it is probably an irrational fear but I always worry he could be assaulted in there alone.

 

I also worry about boys in school (all the hazing and sexual harassment cases) and the men in prisons with no privacy and sexual assault cases. I think I actually worry about men and boys more than women at least as far as bathrooms go.

 

As a woman who has been through a lot of trauma, I worry about assault in almost every environment or situation though. A bathroom is no more or less worrying than a train station, the store parking lot, my car, my home, anywhere.

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in regards to education - several years ago, I attended a 'class' at a homeschool convention (in WA - so liberal state) on the differences between boys and girls.   it was based upon the book "why gender matters" by Leonard Sax MD.   in some ways he was old school - little boys need recess, and don't need to be drugged to be compliant in the classroom.  he had many parents bringing their 5yo sons to him becasue they schools, basically wanted them to be more sedate.  after examining them, he found they just needed more recess. many patients parents told him to write a book - after many years,, he did.   as a dr, he had access to research most laymen are not.  

 

he was very surprised by what he found:

 

boys and girls do better educationally in sex segregated settings - that is from research. this is party because of the way they develop physiologically, and partly social.  the findings were boys do more art and literature, girls do more math and science (did you know the person credited with being the first computer programmer - was a woman?  Ada Lovelace - Lord Byron's daughter).  and teenagers aren't distracted from academics by trying to impress the other sex in class - or afraid of being made fun of by the other sex in class.   though I'm sure, no matter the setting, there will always be issues, because there seem to always be snotty young people - and adults who should never have gone into education.

 

he is now spending his time pushing for sex segregated classrooms. not something he even thought much about before doing this book.

 

I will admit - I refused to even consider a women's college for my girls. .. . and 1dd had several solicit her application.

 

I know it's not really what you were asking, but:

one thing that really stuck out in my mind from that book - a pathologist who can take an eyeball - and tell you if it came from a man or a woman.  (and that there really is something to that: 10 things only women understand e.g. the difference between white, ecru, bone, cream, butter, etc.

 

this week, i was reading an article on how prior to 2010, most pain studies were done on mostly/only men.  (to avoid the variances of hormones.)   they have since learned women do not metabolize pain meds the same as men and they often do not work as well for women.  (as a commenter said - now, test redheads - as they are a whole third category in how they handle/feel pain at the nerve cell level.)

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Right, I'm glad we are getting away from the irrational taboo about admitting boys and girls are different.

 

Some of my best friends went to all-girls schools.  They are much more intellectual than the average woman.  Go figure.  They also have no trouble getting along with males or otherwise having fun.

 

I am not going to go out of my way (or my budget) to send my kids to a girls' school, but they aren't a bad thing.

 

Some of the things my kids come home with, from the boys in their class, are really unnecessary.  I recall some even more unnecessary things happening to me in middle school with boys.  And not to be one-sided, I'm sure parents of boys would say similar about girls.

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in   

 

 

 

 

I know it's not really what you were asking, but:

one thing that really stuck out in my mind from that book - a pathologist who can take an eyeball - and tell you if it came from a man or a woman.  (and that there really is something to that: 10 things only women understand e.g. the difference between white, ecru, bone, cream, butter, etc.

 

 

 

Just regarding this: Really? My son, who is an artist, can see, describe, and use about a million more shades of color than I can; I have seen him spend a lot of time blending his paints to get very subtle shades of neutrals. The pathologist might be able to diagnose one of his eyes as being nearly blind, but if he thought my son was a woman because he can see the difference between ecru and white, that sounds like junk science to me.

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Again, sorry, but I thought the question was about whether society needs single sex spaces, not about whether boys and girls are different. Not trying to moderate the thread, but are these not unrelated conversations?

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Again, sorry, but I thought the question was about whether society needs single sex spaces, not about whether boys and girls are different. Not trying to moderate the thread, but are these not unrelated conversations?

 

Not really - schools are a place that can be sex segregated or not, and historically it's not uncommon to segregate them.  And the main justification is different educational needs, based on factors including biology.

 

And I'd think biological differences between men and women could also in some cases be relevant to a need or desire for segregated spaces. 

 

It's still not uncommon to see people argue there is no justification for separate male and female spaces because women and men are only different in terms of sexual organs - for whatever reason this seems to not include the brain or hormonal systems.

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Just regarding this: Really? My son, who is an artist, can see, describe, and use about a million more shades of color than I can; I have seen him spend a lot of time blending his paints to get very subtle shades of neutrals. The pathologist might be able to diagnose one of his eyes as being nearly blind, but if he thought my son was a woman because he can see the difference between ecru and white, that sounds like junk science to me.

 

 

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/where-men-see-white-women-see-ecru-22540446/

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It sounds like his only categories to test were "man" and "woman." I don't see anything that proves an artistic man is worse at distinguishing shades and tones than a non-artistic woman.

 

Some people play license plate bingo on car trips. My son and I like to play "what colors do you see." I will see three shades of green and brown in a lawn. He will see blues, purples, and more. Or I will see a blue and gray piece of sky, but he will name all the colors he would need to paint it, and it would be a lot more than just blue and gray! When he points it out, I can usually see it, but not always.

 

My husband is also an artist who will meticulously mix shades of paint to get the right ash or bone or cream.

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For things such as bathrooms, to me the safest possible situation for all people is single bathrooms, unisex. If all bathroom areas of a business were this way with a communal hand washing area, no one would be able to be in a bathroom with someone who could do anything to them. From what I have read, they are actually cheaper to build than the bathrooms with stalls. 

 

Dressing areas could be built this way as well, single, full wall, locking door, etc. 

 

I don't want to use the bathroom, change clothes, etc., in front of anyone, man or woman. 

 

 

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It sounds like his only categories to test were "man" and "woman." I don't see anything that proves an artistic man is worse at distinguishing shades and tones than a non-artistic woman.

 

Some people play license plate bingo on car trips. My son and I like to play "what colors do you see." I will see three shades of green and brown in a lawn. He will see blues, purples, and more. Or I will see a blue and gray piece of sky, but he will name all the colors he would need to paint it, and it would be a lot more than just blue and gray! When he points it out, I can usually see it, but not always.

 

My husband is also an artist who will meticulously mix shades of paint to get the right ash or bone or cream.

 

 

I think the study is just reporting an average or a trend or a tendency.  On average, women distinguish subtle variations in color better than men do.  That certainly shouldn't be taken to imply that all women are better at this than all men.  

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It sounds like his only categories to test were "man" and "woman." I don't see anything that proves an artistic man is worse at distinguishing shades and tones than a non-artistic woman.

 

Some people play license plate bingo on car trips. My son and I like to play "what colors do you see." I will see three shades of green and brown in a lawn. He will see blues, purples, and more. Or I will see a blue and gray piece of sky, but he will name all the colors he would need to paint it, and it would be a lot more than just blue and gray! When he points it out, I can usually see it, but not always.

 

My husband is also an artist who will meticulously mix shades of paint to get the right ash or bone or cream.

 

Yes, because he was interested in differences between man and women.  I assume he realizes that not everyone is the same.

 

Just like we can say men are taller than women, to have more muscle mass.

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Okay, sorry, I see where I went wrong - I was taken aback by the pp's language: "Ten things only women understand."

 

I would never have given a second thought to "Generally, women pay more attention to subtle variance in color than men."

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Headlines like that make me nutty.

 

I guess we could ask a couple of questions: are sex-segregated spaces useful or necessary or desirable only because of safety issues?

 

If so, especially if we're talking about protecting underage girls from adult men, how do we square that with the need to protect underage boys from adult men? (as adult men are more likely than women, by a large margin, to molest/assault both boys and girls).

 

 

As far as, are boys and girls different and is that a separate discussion from the need for sex-segregated spaces - I don't understand the question, I think.  If they weren't different, why would we need sex-segregated spaces?  Does anyone really think that the only biological differences  between male and female are reproductive organs - that there are no differences of brain or other body systems? 

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I don't support all sex-neutral bathrooms, for a number of reasons.

 

A couple of those reasons - sharing a space with men, even if not at the same time, allows opportunity for predators. When Target went gender inclusive, incidents of voyarism rose https://womanmeanssomething.com/targetstudy/

 

Women already have less equitable access to public toilets, men have more space by way of urinals as well as quicker use. Women have sex-specific toiletting needs, disrobing more, sitting & menstruation are some examples, which take longer.

http://time.com/3653871/womens-bathroom-lines-sexist-potty-parity/

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When I was in the Navy, the only time we had gang showers was in boot camp every other station and command I was at, whether shore or ship, we had at a minimum individual stalls with curtains. Curtains are easy enough to clean--you take them down and throw them in a washing machine!

 

When smaller groups are involved, fewer showering all at once, more individualized facilities start to make more sense I think.  It's when you have large groups at once that i's less efficient.

 

I don't know that I think curtains don't add a real cleaning burden.  It's one thing at home, but in that setting it would mean you need washer facilities available, which they might or might not have for other things, you'd have to coordinate that with washing other things, you'd probably need two sets of curtains if the showers were in heavy use, taking them down and putting them all up would be a pain.  I mean, it could be done, it's not impossible, but whether it's worth it would depend I think on how worthwhile you thought the reason for it was.  I tend to think it's generally a positive thing to have public showers and change rooms in terms of body attitudes generally.

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I have seen these in (still gender segregated) park restrooms and rest areas and the like. Since I generally lift the seat and hover-squat to pee in public restrooms, I can't say I care personally. My kids have never had problem using such toilets, either.

Your children obviously are very skilled in a way mine are not.

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Just regarding this: Really? My son, who is an artist, can see, describe, and use about a million more shades of color than I can; I have seen him spend a lot of time blending his paints to get very subtle shades of neutrals. The pathologist might be able to diagnose one of his eyes as being nearly blind, but if he thought my son was a woman because he can see the difference between ecru and white, that sounds like junk science to me.

 

 

there are always exceptions - and it has to do with the ratio of cones and rods.

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No seat?! What in holy hell. How does that work?

As a female I have no idea, so I dehydrated myself when I go shopping so I don't have to use them. Obviously many others have not worked out how to use them either because of the state of the toilets
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Your children obviously are very skilled in a way mine are not.

 

Um yeah and apparently I lack skill as well.

 

For one thing I'm quite short (as are many children) so hovering is not something that can really be pulled off by all.

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For things such as bathrooms, to me the safest possible situation for all people is single bathrooms, unisex. If all bathroom areas of a business were this way with a communal hand washing area, no one would be able to be in a bathroom with someone who could do anything to them. From what I have read, they are actually cheaper to build than the bathrooms with stalls. 

 

Dressing areas could be built this way as well, single, full wall, locking door, etc. 

 

I don't want to use the bathroom, change clothes, etc., in front of anyone, man or woman. 

 

The bathroom you describe is basically making the traditional women's restroom layout into a unisex restroom by just changing the sign.   No no no no.   You say, "communal hand washing area" I hear "small enclosed space with random men, women and children."   

 

This is the main thing that concerns me with this gender neutral idea.  One or many one-person or one-family bathrooms, fine.   

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As a female I have no idea, so I dehydrated myself when I go shopping so I don't have to use them. Obviously many others have not worked out how to use them either because of the state of the toilets

 

Maybe they were designed by men.  Seriously....

 

I once had a weird experience in a restroom in Germany.  They had a massive communal roll of toilet paper.  Yep.  It was this gigantic dispenser on the wall and I guess one was supposed to grab some on the way in.  It was at a soccer stadium (where about 90% of the people there were men).  I didn't understand this situation so I ended up in the stall with no toilet paper (at that point I understood why women were grabbing wads of this stuff off the wall).  And you know how sometimes when women are desperate they go into the men's room at public events because the line is massive for the women's room, but not the men's?  It was reversed.  Men were going into the women's room out of desperation.  LOL

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The bathroom you describe is basically making the traditional women's restroom layout into a unisex restroom by just changing the sign.   No no no no.   You say, "communal hand washing area" I hear "small enclosed space with random men, women and children."   

 

This is the main thing that concerns me with this gender neutral idea.  One or many one-person or one-family bathrooms, fine.   

I don't think that is what she meant.  Their are bathroom designs where the communal hand washing area is truly out in the open.  Our schools here have bathrooms like that the handwashing area is in between the two bathrooms and is open to the hallway. There is no small enclosed space. 

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If this no seat business ever comes to America, I will start going to town in an RV. I will be happy to share my facilities with mothers of tiny children, elderly women, and women of any age who are too short to squat or who have other physical limitations that necessitate a toilet seat!

 

Maybe I will start a business. Tibbie's Traveling Toilets.

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The bathroom you describe is basically making the traditional women's restroom layout into a unisex restroom by just changing the sign. No no no no. You say, "communal hand washing area" I hear "small enclosed space with random men, women and children."

 

This is the main thing that concerns me with this gender neutral idea. One or many one-person or one-family bathrooms, fine. [/quoteI

 

I'm not describing it well then. I mean single bathrooms that are actual individual rooms. Hand washing would be out in the open (like in the hallway outside the bathrooms)

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People get hung up on pre-op vs. post-op. But realistically, a trans woman who has been on female hormones for more than a few months is not going to pose an exceptional danger to others. Now, if she's in there for a crime of sexual aggression in the first place, then yes, she should be segregated, but otherwise? She's not going to be any more of a danger to the cisgender women than the other cisgender women, some of whom will be there for violent crimes, some of whom will be physically larger than average.

 

I could see in a system with a large enough population to support special units to offer one for those who might be vulnerable in general population because of their identity, but such a unit should not isolate inmates or subject them to more restrictions than warranted by their security level based on their offense and conduct.

 

Currenly, the practice is often to put transgender people in to prisons based on their genitals, and if necessary isolate them for their safety or that of the other inmates. A choice between the extraordinary psychological toll of isolation vs. elevated risk of sexual assault should not be part of the calculus for appropriate punishment of crime.

It's a handy way to distinguish transsexuals from chancers.

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I realize I'm starting to sound very contrary, but I don't want to walk out to the hallway with dirty hands and wash in public. I don't want a post toileting public washing space.

 

And the more I think about it, the more I remember instances of some woman, sometimes myself, kind of becoming a bit of a spectacle in the ladies' room while assisting a small child or an elderly relative. It's not all super contained; there might be a stall door open, or back and forth to the sink, or one woman in charge of more than one person who needs her help...it's fine to play this all out in the ladies room. It's a little less fine to go between small private stall and the public sinks in the hallway.

 

I still don't understand, and probably never will, why we can't just do the following:

 

1. Stop worrying about transgender women in the ladies room. Until a bunch of people of odd religious and political persuasion invented this phobia, a lot of us did pretty well at just minding our own business. It's not true that we never had questions. It is true that I, at least, never ran screaming and never demanded legislation; I really did think it was up to individuals to know where they needed and wanted to use the bathroom...

2. Convert or build at least two family restrooms, everywhere people need a restroom, from sea to shining sea.

3. Keep the separate locker rooms and bathrooms that work for the vast majority of people. For those who can use them, you are keeping us out of the family restrooms that are legitimate needs for others.

4. And bring the paper towels back.

5. And maybe we need a bathroom monitor who is paid, I don't care if it's the Ritz Carlton or the gas station.

 

Thank you. That is all.

Edited by Tibbie Dunbar
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I was thinking about a semi-related article I read yesterday-  I think it appeared on google news in one of those sidebars where they push their social agenda.  

 

Looked it up again, here it is: http://www.latimes.com/health/la-me-male-gynos-20180307-htmlstory.html

 

Basically, it's an analysis of why there are fewer male ob-gyns and whether that's a bad thing or an unfair thing (yes to both, concludes the article, more or less).  It reminded me a bit of a thread we had here a long time ago about a lady who was in the hospital (or a relative was in the hospital and this happened to the relative, not sure) and called for a nurse to assist her to the bathroom and it was a male nurse and she requested a female one and either was denied or was scorned or something.

 

And a fair number of people here basically said, she has to suck it up and take the male nurse, you can't just discriminate on the basis of sex.

 

And both in the ob-gyn article and in that thread and here I tend to read some level of "women don't want male doctors or to share male spaces because of the either legitimate or not legitimate fear of assault" and the debate becomes whether the fear of assault is legitimate.

 

But for me, I don't want a female ob-gyn because I'm afraid my male ob-gyn will assault me, and I don't want a female nurse when exposing my nakedness because I'm afraid a male nurse will assault me and I don't want single-sex changing rooms (when changing rooms are shared, logistically) because I'm afraid of being assaulted by men.

 

I just don't want to engage with men in those ways if I have a choice.  If I don't have a choice, or it is an emergency, it's not the end of the world to have a male doctor deliver my baby or whatever - they do a fine job and I don't feel particularly violated.  But I don't want to lose the right to discriminate on the basis of sex as a consumer (or as a customer who prefers the gym with the gender-segregated bathrooms, for instance) in instances where there is a natural inclination to prefer women for some roles.

I agree with you, and it's for practical, emotional, ideological, psychological AND safety reasons.

 

I truly don't understand when people object to women choosing or desiring single sex provision where they can.

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I realize I'm starting to sound very contrary, but I don't want to walk out to the hallway with dirty hands and wash in public. I don't want a post toileting public washing space.

 

And the more I think about it, the more I remember instances of some woman, sometimes myself, kind of becoming a bit of a spectacle in the ladies' room while assisting a small child or an elderly relative. It's not all super contained; there might be a stall door open, or back and forth to the sink, or one woman in charge of more than one person who needs her help...it's fine to play this all out in the ladies room. It's a little less fine to go between small private stall and the public sinks in the hallway.

 

I still don't understand, and probably never will, why we can't just do the following:

 

1. Stop worrying about transgender women in the ladies room. Until a bunch of people of odd religious and political persuasion invented this phobia, a lot of us did pretty well at just minding our own business. It's not true that we never had questions. It is true that I, at least, never ran screaming and never demanded legislation; I really did think it was up to individuals to know where they needed and wanted to use the bathroom...

2. Convert or build at least two family restrooms, everywhere people need a restroom, from sea to shining sea.

3. Keep the separate locker rooms and bathrooms that work for the vast majority of people. For those who can use them, you are keeping us out of the family restrooms that are legitimate needs for others.

4. And bring the paper towels back.

5. And maybe we need a bathroom monitor who is paid, I don't care if it's the Ritz Carlton or the gas station.

 

Thank you. That is all.

lol, odd people. Ta.

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So, anyone who is in favor of abolishing - or letting languish same sex provisions - want to address the psych ward issue ?

 

Is everyone good with their daughter or wife or sister or best friend sleeping and showering in wards no longer segregated by sex ?

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I don't think that is what she meant.  Their are bathroom designs where the communal hand washing area is truly out in the open.  Our schools here have bathrooms like that the handwashing area is in between the two bathrooms and is open to the hallway. There is no small enclosed space.

Fun times rinsing your moon cup out in the communal area open to the world!

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So, anyone who is in favor of abolishing - or letting languish same sex provisions - want to address the psych ward issue ?

 

Is everyone good with their daughter or wife or sister or best friend sleeping and showering in wards no longer segregated by sex ?

 

It's been awhile since I've been inside a psych ward, but I've never seen a sex segregated ward.  The wards were mixed.  Women didn't share individual rooms with men, but there were no entire wards just for women or men. Each room either had its own bathroom or there were individual private bathrooms (not shared) on the floor. 

Edited by SparklyUnicorn
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So, anyone who is in favor of abolishing - or letting languish same sex provisions - want to address the psych ward issue ?

 

Is everyone good with their daughter or wife or sister or best friend sleeping and showering in wards no longer segregated by sex ?

 

My family member wasn't too keen on a mixed sex ward even with a private room, because you can't keep your door closed at night because they wake you up every hour checking on you. This was a "low security" ward, I'm not sure what it's called, not where people were violent. She didn't have any problems, she just didn't like it. 

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I agree Tibbie.

 

And honestly, is there some sort of epidemic of transwomen predators in restrooms?  I haven't heard of such a thing. 

 

The problem isn't transwomen predators.  It is non-trans men falsely claiming that they identify as a woman to gain access to women's spaces.  

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I think on the question of bathrooms and such, legislation & public policy ought to seek to understand the needs of those that most benefit from gender-neutral spaces. Most places around me still have men's rooms and women's rooms, with very few having a "family" bathroom or disabled bathroom (and if available, it's often only one in the whole place, and at the back of the store, away from the regular/multi-stall bathrooms. I'd like to see that change, where all public spaces have gender-neutral spaces available (and ideally, more than one), but I understand the cost would be prohibitive, especially in retro-fitting existing buildings. 

 

But, as a cisgender woman, I can only speak on what I'm comfortable with. Personally, I don't have a problem sharing my spaces with a transgender woman, my perception/understanding being that unless I'm being exceptionally nosy & socially inappropriate, I wouldn't really know whether the person in the next stall or under the adjoining shower spigot has the same genitals as me, and whether they were there at birth or not. 

 

As for mixing cisgender male & female, I wouldn't want to shower in front of a straight male in a gang style shower, but I could see having sort of a joint locker room in the middle and then to one side, female showers/changing stalls, and to the other side male showers/changing stalls, as long as it was clearly identified as such going in so you aren't taken by surprise. Although, with the #metoo type situations, it would certainly be for the safety of both men & women to keep things separated; so women aren't at risk of being abused, and men aren't at risk of being falsely accused. 

 

As for prisons, hospitals, etc, and what the transgender community needs.....I think we simply must listen to what they are telling us. If the transgender community says they (we) need safe, gender-neutral spaces in public buildings....then that's what we need. If they are saying they need to be protected/given the right to use the bathroom with the label they ID as, that's what we need. I am not transgender, so I cannot adequately determine what is best for that population. 

 

I will say I'm appalled to live in a suburb of a city that's passing/attempting to pass "bathroom bills" prohibiting transgender women from using bathrooms labeled for women, on the premise that us cisgender women are at great risk from it. But beyond that, I don't know if "make all bathrooms unisex/mixed gender" or "create gender-neutral, single-stall bathrooms in all spaces" or some combination of the two is the best way to meet the need that's out there. Not just for transgender people, but for families with small children, caregivers of folks with disabilities, etc. as well.

So my dd's right to single sex provision when she is at her most vulnerable on a psych ward - irrelevant? Let me tell you who is vulnerable in that situation - anyone with a freaking vagina. Women have a right to safety and dignity too, and same sex provision goes some way - not all - to achieving that.

 

But nice to know people are happy to throw female psych ward patients under the bus.

Edited by StellaM
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The problem isn't transwomen predators.  It is non-trans men falsely claiming that they identify as a woman to gain access to women's spaces.

Yep, the whole self ID thing.

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So my dd's right to single sex provision when she is at her most vulnerable on a psych ward - irrelevant? Let me tell you who is vulnerable in that situation - anyone with a freaking vagina. Women have a right to safety and dignity too, and same sex provision goes some way - not all - to achieving that.

 

But nice to know people are happy to throw female psych ward patients under the bus. Progressive.

 

I'm not disagreeing, but I'm not aware this is even a thing here (sex segregated psych wards).

 

I'll have to google...

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Fun times rinsing your moon cup out in the communal area open to the world!

 

I had misunderstood the communal washing area mentioned earlier, but I hadn't even thought of that.  That is bad enough in a women's restroom.  

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My family member wasn't too keen on a mixed sex ward even with a private room, because you can't keep your door closed at night because they wake you up every hour checking on you. This was a "low security" ward, I'm not sure what it's called, not where people were violent. She didn't have any problems, she just didn't like it.

Yeah, low risk.

 

I would SO much prefer those wards to be single sex. The higher risk wards tend to be segregated. Idk. One hosptital we were at, they could close the doors, and the nurses used their key card to enter. That was way more reassuring.

 

It kind of bother me people focus on loos and women in hospital and prisons can go whistle.

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I'm not disagreeing, but I'm not aware this is even a thing here (sex segregated psych wards).

 

I'll have to google...

You have mixed sex open wards for sleeping and showering? That's appalling.

 

The day wards are not often segregated here, though I wish they were, but sleeping and personal care wards are currently single gender (not single sex) provision.

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You have mixed sex open wards for sleeping and showering? That's appalling.

 

The day wards are not often segregated here, though I wish they were, but sleeping and personal care wards are currently single gender (not single sex) provision.

 

Yes.  Google is so far confirming what I thought to be true.  And I've seen it myself.

 

Like I said, individual rooms aren't shared, but the wards are mixed overall. 

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Yes.  Google is so far confirming what I thought to be true.  And I've seen it myself.

 

Like I said, individual rooms aren't shared, but the wards are mixed overall.

So, you have mixed sex wards for sleeping ? Male patients sleeping in the same open ward as female patients ? male and female patients accessing the same shower cubicles?

 

That's a psychiatric health emergency, that is.

 

Day wards - where people zone out in front of the TV or do groups etc are not sex segregated here either. Just the sleeping and showering/toileting areas.

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So, you have mixed sex wards for sleeping ? Male patients sleeping in the same open ward as female patients ? male and female patients accessing the same shower cubicles?

 

That's a psychiatric health emergency, that is.

 

Day wards - where people zone out in front of the TV or do groups etc are not sex segregated here either. Just the sleeping and showering/toileting areas.

 

Yes

 

The bathrooms I've seen were not cubicles.  They were individual single rooms outside of the sleeping rooms or inside the sleeping room. 

 

It's rare to end up in a facility overnight period.  Looking up one of the major psychiatric hospitals in NYC, the majority of their programs are outpatient.  Their inpatient section has 22 beds.  Most people end up in regular hospitals, possibly on a psych floor/ward, and are only held as long as needed to stabilize them on medication (or to detox).  Otherwise, again, it's extremely rare to end up anywhere for any real period of time. 

Edited by SparklyUnicorn
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Yeah, low risk.

 

I would SO much prefer those wards to be single sex. The higher risk wards tend to be segregated. Idk. One hosptital we were at, they could close the doors, and the nurses used their key card to enter. That was way more reassuring.

 

It kind of bother me people focus on loos and women in hospital and prisons can go whistle.

 

Oh, they were allowed to close their doors. They're just big, heavy doors that are really noisy to open. If you wanted to be able to sleep more than an hour at a time, you had to leave them wedged open so they didn't wake you.

 

I think we're lucky the low risk psych facilities exist at all.

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